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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
July 08 2013 21:45 GMT
#6321
The U.S. military, as with so many other sectors, is full of bloat, inefficiency, rent-seeking, etc. Before we can even debate whether or not the current price tag is justifiable, we must actually realize that it's not necessary. When you actually get down into the numbers, there is just way too much crap that we're spending way too much money on, including contracts, obsolete weapons/vehicles, etc. It is possible to reduce the amount of money we spend on the military, while at the same time maintaining the current military-readiness levels. Of course, this isn't going to happen any time soon.
Writer
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
July 08 2013 21:56 GMT
#6322
On July 09 2013 05:06 farvacola wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 09 2013 04:59 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Correct me if my history is wrong, but...has the US ever had a serious threat of invasion?

I know the "defend our nation" and "defend our freedom" rhetoric is used by every single country, but aside from your initial war of independence, when has anyone even attempted to take over US soil?

Pearl Harbor and the War of 1812 come to mind immediately. Both are different enough from contemporary times to render their comparisons fairly toothless though.

Ah, right, War of 1812, forgot about that one. Pearl Harbor is iffy, though. From what I remember, the Japanese were just trying to cripple the US Navy to buy time for further expansion in the Western Pacific. I don't think the goal was ever to take over US territory specifically.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
HunterX11
Profile Joined March 2009
United States1048 Posts
July 08 2013 22:01 GMT
#6323
On July 09 2013 06:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 09 2013 05:06 farvacola wrote:
On July 09 2013 04:59 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Correct me if my history is wrong, but...has the US ever had a serious threat of invasion?

I know the "defend our nation" and "defend our freedom" rhetoric is used by every single country, but aside from your initial war of independence, when has anyone even attempted to take over US soil?

Pearl Harbor and the War of 1812 come to mind immediately. Both are different enough from contemporary times to render their comparisons fairly toothless though.

Ah, right, War of 1812, forgot about that one. Pearl Harbor is iffy, though. From what I remember, the Japanese were just trying to cripple the US Navy to buy time for further expansion in the Western Pacific. I don't think the goal was ever to take over US territory specifically.


Well, they did mean to hold on to the Philippines, but that probably shouldn't count either.
Try using both Irradiate and Defensive Matrix on an Overlord. It looks pretty neat.
Phelix
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
1931 Posts
July 08 2013 22:39 GMT
#6324
On July 09 2013 06:45 Souma wrote:
The U.S. military, as with so many other sectors, is full of bloat, inefficiency, rent-seeking, etc. Before we can even debate whether or not the current price tag is justifiable, we must actually realize that it's not necessary. When you actually get down into the numbers, there is just way too much crap that we're spending way too much money on, including contracts, obsolete weapons/vehicles, etc. It is possible to reduce the amount of money we spend on the military, while at the same time maintaining the current military-readiness levels. Of course, this isn't going to happen any time soon.

Yes, there is a lot of inefficiency in the military, but don't forget that America has a big military-industrial complex that sprinkles its monies and boosts the economy around the country. For example, there's a case where Congress mandates that they build 300 Abrams tanks even though the military thinks that it's not necessary (There are tank graveyards around the deserts.), but they are forced to because people are going to lose jobs if the factory is not open and making tanks.

It's a balance of increasing unemployment versus wasteful government spending and trying to reduce the deficit/total debt. Representatives and senators will obviously vote on these projects in their home districts/states, but outright object to being spent on other districts/states.
Venture Capital is better off spent on lottery tickets rather than investing in E-Sports; you'll get a far better return. The difference is simple: Koreans are tryharding at the game, foreigners are tryharding in real-life.
ziggurat
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada847 Posts
July 08 2013 22:53 GMT
#6325
On July 09 2013 06:45 Souma wrote:
The U.S. military, as with so many other sectors, is full of bloat, inefficiency, rent-seeking, etc. Before we can even debate whether or not the current price tag is justifiable, we must actually realize that it's not necessary. When you actually get down into the numbers, there is just way too much crap that we're spending way too much money on, including contracts, obsolete weapons/vehicles, etc. It is possible to reduce the amount of money we spend on the military, while at the same time maintaining the current military-readiness levels. Of course, this isn't going to happen any time soon.

I think you are quite right about this. Inefficiency seems to be inherent in big government. This is one of the reasons some people argue for smaller government!
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18866 Posts
July 08 2013 23:03 GMT
#6326
On July 09 2013 07:53 ziggurat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 09 2013 06:45 Souma wrote:
The U.S. military, as with so many other sectors, is full of bloat, inefficiency, rent-seeking, etc. Before we can even debate whether or not the current price tag is justifiable, we must actually realize that it's not necessary. When you actually get down into the numbers, there is just way too much crap that we're spending way too much money on, including contracts, obsolete weapons/vehicles, etc. It is possible to reduce the amount of money we spend on the military, while at the same time maintaining the current military-readiness levels. Of course, this isn't going to happen any time soon.

I think you are quite right about this. Inefficiency seems to be inherent in big government. This is one of the reasons some people argue for smaller government!

Not all inefficiencies are created equal.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
July 08 2013 23:09 GMT
#6327
While Republicans settle on a least-bad immigration strategy, it’s dawned on reform opponents and their conservative allies that if the effort dies in the House, they’ll need to bring a plausible excuse to the public — that is, if they hope to sidestep at least some of the blame for the debacle.

And they think they’ve found one.

Specifically, they hope to draw a connection between the White House’s recent health care reform implementation decisions and border security measures in the Senate’s immigration bill to claim their opposition to comprehensive reform stems not from substantive objections but from a sense that the Obama administration will ignore parts of an immigration law it doesn’t like.

“If you look at this Obamacare debacle that they have right now, this administration is actually deciding when and where to actually enforce the law. And that’s what some of us in the House are concerned about,” Rep. Raul Labrador (R-ID), who until recently was a leading immigration reform negotiator in the House, said Sunday on Meet the Press. “If you give to this administration the authority to decide when they’re going to enforce the law, how they’re going to enforce the law … I can tell you that Janet Napolitano has already said that the border is secure. So what’s going to happen is that we’re going to give legalization to 11 million people, and Janet Napolitano’s going to come to Congress and tell us that the border’s already secure, and nothing else needs to happen.”

Labrador is referring to the Obama administration’s decision to delay the health care law’s employer mandate by one year — a move intended to smooth Obamacare implementation, but that in itself reflects the fact that Republicans will block legislative Affordable Care Act fixes, and that administrative actions are the only way to make sure the law rolls out as smoothly as possible.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
July 08 2013 23:11 GMT
#6328
On July 09 2013 06:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 09 2013 05:06 farvacola wrote:
On July 09 2013 04:59 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Correct me if my history is wrong, but...has the US ever had a serious threat of invasion?

I know the "defend our nation" and "defend our freedom" rhetoric is used by every single country, but aside from your initial war of independence, when has anyone even attempted to take over US soil?

Pearl Harbor and the War of 1812 come to mind immediately. Both are different enough from contemporary times to render their comparisons fairly toothless though.

Ah, right, War of 1812, forgot about that one. Pearl Harbor is iffy, though. From what I remember, the Japanese were just trying to cripple the US Navy to buy time for further expansion in the Western Pacific. I don't think the goal was ever to take over US territory specifically.


The goal was too hit the US hard and fast enough that would sue for peace never to be in a drawn war they knew they would lose. Same with the UK except the colonies and British India, that they wanted.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
sc2superfan101
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
3583 Posts
July 08 2013 23:11 GMT
#6329
That's a pretty biased article.
My fake plants died because I did not pretend to water them.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44276 Posts
July 08 2013 23:13 GMT
#6330
On July 09 2013 07:39 Phelix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 09 2013 06:45 Souma wrote:
The U.S. military, as with so many other sectors, is full of bloat, inefficiency, rent-seeking, etc. Before we can even debate whether or not the current price tag is justifiable, we must actually realize that it's not necessary. When you actually get down into the numbers, there is just way too much crap that we're spending way too much money on, including contracts, obsolete weapons/vehicles, etc. It is possible to reduce the amount of money we spend on the military, while at the same time maintaining the current military-readiness levels. Of course, this isn't going to happen any time soon.

Yes, there is a lot of inefficiency in the military, but don't forget that America has a big military-industrial complex that sprinkles its monies and boosts the economy around the country. For example, there's a case where Congress mandates that they build 300 Abrams tanks even though the military thinks that it's not necessary (There are tank graveyards around the deserts.), but they are forced to because people are going to lose jobs if the factory is not open and making tanks.

It's a balance of increasing unemployment versus wasteful government spending and trying to reduce the deficit/total debt. Representatives and senators will obviously vote on these projects in their home districts/states, but outright object to being spent on other districts/states.

In fairness the justification for this is maintaining the skillsets that let the country produce a bunch of tanks if it needs to for national security purposes. At some point the country may need to produce a new generation of tanks or if the world situation changes it may need to supply some tanks to a foreign nation or whatever. The point is making tanks you don't want will work out cheaper than training a bunch of dudes from scratch to make tanks and building them a factory when you need them in the future. And while you don't need them right now you have to give them something to do, right?
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
July 08 2013 23:22 GMT
#6331
The military is not unique in wasteful government spending. With real discretionary outlays growing 40% since 2002, the focus ought to be on those sectors. This is all not to mention the fraud, waste, and abuse in entitlements making up 60% of all fed outlays. It's just that the left is no friend of the military, so it's typically singled out for the cost-cutting.

It doesn't take much looking to find a million dollars here and 2 million there in waste and 30-100million in pork. The glut goes to pad the pockets of politically collected as well as garner votes for make-work projects brought back to the state. I'd like to see a public sentiment shift to cutting out the pork and setting a hard line on the waste, which is the only way politicians would start voting against the laws stuffed full of them.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Jormundr
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1678 Posts
July 08 2013 23:23 GMT
#6332
On July 09 2013 08:13 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 09 2013 07:39 Phelix wrote:
On July 09 2013 06:45 Souma wrote:
The U.S. military, as with so many other sectors, is full of bloat, inefficiency, rent-seeking, etc. Before we can even debate whether or not the current price tag is justifiable, we must actually realize that it's not necessary. When you actually get down into the numbers, there is just way too much crap that we're spending way too much money on, including contracts, obsolete weapons/vehicles, etc. It is possible to reduce the amount of money we spend on the military, while at the same time maintaining the current military-readiness levels. Of course, this isn't going to happen any time soon.

Yes, there is a lot of inefficiency in the military, but don't forget that America has a big military-industrial complex that sprinkles its monies and boosts the economy around the country. For example, there's a case where Congress mandates that they build 300 Abrams tanks even though the military thinks that it's not necessary (There are tank graveyards around the deserts.), but they are forced to because people are going to lose jobs if the factory is not open and making tanks.

It's a balance of increasing unemployment versus wasteful government spending and trying to reduce the deficit/total debt. Representatives and senators will obviously vote on these projects in their home districts/states, but outright object to being spent on other districts/states.

In fairness the justification for this is maintaining the skillsets that let the country produce a bunch of tanks if it needs to for national security purposes. At some point the country may need to produce a new generation of tanks or if the world situation changes it may need to supply some tanks to a foreign nation or whatever. The point is making tanks you don't want will work out cheaper than training a bunch of dudes from scratch to make tanks and building them a factory when you need them in the future. And while you don't need them right now you have to give them something to do, right?

Wish I had for-the-hell-of-it job security.
Capitalism is beneficial for people who work harder than other people. Under capitalism the only way to make more money is to work harder then your competitors whether they be other companies or workers. ~ Vegetarian
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44276 Posts
July 08 2013 23:25 GMT
#6333
Every party everywhere is against waste but every party everywhere is made up of the same type of individuals who are either too incompetent or too complicit to reduce waste. Railing against waste is like railing against bad weather, it's a non argument against a straw man and even if it was a legitimate point neither side has a good track record on dealing with it.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
July 08 2013 23:25 GMT
#6334
SAO PAULO (AP) - The Brazilian government began an investigation Monday into whether telecommunications firms operating in the country cooperated with the U.S. as part of a spying program that has collected data on billions of telephone and email conversations.

Anatel, the government agency that regulates the telecom sector in Brazil, said in a note that it's working with federal police and other government agencies on the investigation.

The O Globo newspaper reported this weekend that information released by NSA leaker Edward Snowden showed Brazil is the top target in Latin America for the National Security Agency's massive intelligence-gathering effort aimed at monitoring communications around the world.

Brazil isn't alone in its concern; London-based advocacy group Privacy International filed lawsuit on Monday over alleged spying of internet and phone users in Britain.

"It's worth clarifying that the confidentiality of data and telephone communications is a right guaranteed by the constitution, by our laws and by Anatel's regulations," the Brazilian regulator said in a note posted on its website. "Its violation is punishable in civil, criminal and administrative realms."

The O Globo article said the NSA collected the data through an association between U.S. and Brazilian telecommunications companies. It said it could not verify which Brazilian companies were involved or if they were aware their links were being used to collect the data.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
July 08 2013 23:28 GMT
#6335
On July 09 2013 08:25 KwarK wrote:
Every party everywhere is against waste but every party everywhere is made up of the same type of individuals who are either too incompetent or too complicit to reduce waste. Railing against waste is like railing against bad weather, it's a non argument against a straw man and even if it was a legitimate point neither side has a good track record on dealing with it.

And that would be one argument for a smaller government; it's inherently wasteful and therefore it should do less.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18866 Posts
July 08 2013 23:32 GMT
#6336
The populist notion that all waste is the same and deserves the same lip service is a big part of why political dialogue in the United States is so utterly debased.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
GeneralStan
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States4789 Posts
July 08 2013 23:32 GMT
#6337
On July 09 2013 06:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 09 2013 05:06 farvacola wrote:
On July 09 2013 04:59 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Correct me if my history is wrong, but...has the US ever had a serious threat of invasion?

I know the "defend our nation" and "defend our freedom" rhetoric is used by every single country, but aside from your initial war of independence, when has anyone even attempted to take over US soil?

Pearl Harbor and the War of 1812 come to mind immediately. Both are different enough from contemporary times to render their comparisons fairly toothless though.

Ah, right, War of 1812, forgot about that one. Pearl Harbor is iffy, though. From what I remember, the Japanese were just trying to cripple the US Navy to buy time for further expansion in the Western Pacific. I don't think the goal was ever to take over US territory specifically.


However World War II was a total war, and the Japanese Navy had enough superiority to seriously threaten the West Coast. I think that counts it as an example where the US faced a serious threat, and is a sufficient contrast to everything since, where there was not a reasonable threat of invasion
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44276 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-08 23:35:01
July 08 2013 23:34 GMT
#6338
On July 09 2013 08:28 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 09 2013 08:25 KwarK wrote:
Every party everywhere is against waste but every party everywhere is made up of the same type of individuals who are either too incompetent or too complicit to reduce waste. Railing against waste is like railing against bad weather, it's a non argument against a straw man and even if it was a legitimate point neither side has a good track record on dealing with it.

And that would be one argument for a smaller government; it's inherently wasteful and therefore it should do less.

Except that people are inherently wasteful and will do the same thing. It's as if there is a disconnect in people's head when they think about government waste and where they think government is run by a special other type of incompetent species called governments who make exclusively shitty decisions. It's not, it's run by people who do what they can and if you got rid of government those same people would be being just as wasteful in their private market jobs. I have yet to work anywhere where I didn't think most of the people there don't actually do anything productive but in the western world we are so fucking affluent that we're allowed to be ridiculously wasteful and it doesn't really matter. If government waste disappeared you wouldn't suddenly get a bunch of extra money in your paycheck, your boss would decide to hire a hole digger and a hole filler in because your boss is the same breed of idiot that works for the government.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Jormundr
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1678 Posts
July 08 2013 23:42 GMT
#6339
On July 09 2013 08:28 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 09 2013 08:25 KwarK wrote:
Every party everywhere is against waste but every party everywhere is made up of the same type of individuals who are either too incompetent or too complicit to reduce waste. Railing against waste is like railing against bad weather, it's a non argument against a straw man and even if it was a legitimate point neither side has a good track record on dealing with it.

And that would be one argument for a smaller government; it's inherently wasteful and therefore it should do less.

Only if you assume that private solutions would be less wasteful.
Capitalism is beneficial for people who work harder than other people. Under capitalism the only way to make more money is to work harder then your competitors whether they be other companies or workers. ~ Vegetarian
sc2superfan101
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
3583 Posts
July 08 2013 23:50 GMT
#6340
On July 09 2013 08:42 Jormundr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 09 2013 08:28 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On July 09 2013 08:25 KwarK wrote:
Every party everywhere is against waste but every party everywhere is made up of the same type of individuals who are either too incompetent or too complicit to reduce waste. Railing against waste is like railing against bad weather, it's a non argument against a straw man and even if it was a legitimate point neither side has a good track record on dealing with it.

And that would be one argument for a smaller government; it's inherently wasteful and therefore it should do less.

Only if you assume that private solutions would be less wasteful.

In a free market, at least there is some financial incentive to be less wasteful.

There seems to be no such incentive in government, in fact, it seems to be the opposite. The guy who gets the most money/projects/benefits for his district and constituents has the leg up on the guy who actually tries to cut things.
My fake plants died because I did not pretend to water them.
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