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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 318

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42634 Posts
July 09 2013 00:01 GMT
#6341
This assumes that most government waste is from intentional wasting in favour of ones own constituents rather than just being a law of large scale operations. I've seen no evidence in my experience that private enterprise is able to create a less wasteful operation. Remember private enterprise is what created advertising, a tremendously worthless exercise in convincing people they want something they don't really want through claiming that it's better than it actually is. The free market has its uses but it is not above waste.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Phelix
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
1931 Posts
July 09 2013 00:08 GMT
#6342
On July 09 2013 08:13 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 09 2013 07:39 Phelix wrote:
On July 09 2013 06:45 Souma wrote:
The U.S. military, as with so many other sectors, is full of bloat, inefficiency, rent-seeking, etc. Before we can even debate whether or not the current price tag is justifiable, we must actually realize that it's not necessary. When you actually get down into the numbers, there is just way too much crap that we're spending way too much money on, including contracts, obsolete weapons/vehicles, etc. It is possible to reduce the amount of money we spend on the military, while at the same time maintaining the current military-readiness levels. Of course, this isn't going to happen any time soon.

Yes, there is a lot of inefficiency in the military, but don't forget that America has a big military-industrial complex that sprinkles its monies and boosts the economy around the country. For example, there's a case where Congress mandates that they build 300 Abrams tanks even though the military thinks that it's not necessary (There are tank graveyards around the deserts.), but they are forced to because people are going to lose jobs if the factory is not open and making tanks.

It's a balance of increasing unemployment versus wasteful government spending and trying to reduce the deficit/total debt. Representatives and senators will obviously vote on these projects in their home districts/states, but outright object to being spent on other districts/states.

In fairness the justification for this is maintaining the skillsets that let the country produce a bunch of tanks if it needs to for national security purposes. At some point the country may need to produce a new generation of tanks or if the world situation changes it may need to supply some tanks to a foreign nation or whatever. The point is making tanks you don't want will work out cheaper than training a bunch of dudes from scratch to make tanks and building them a factory when you need them in the future. And while you don't need them right now you have to give them something to do, right?

I can understand your points, where maintaining the skillset is necessary for the workers, but do we really need 300 M1 Abrams tanks to be made if there are 2,000 M1 Abrams tanks sitting in a graveyard? The average tank in the military is less than 3 years old, so it's not as if these tanks are outdated. You have to give something to do in order to save the 15,000 jobs generated by making the 300 tanks, as no congressman will vote for cuts in his/her district, while parts for the tank are scattered across the country, or else they will be voted out for re-election as a candidate who cuts jobs for their community.
Venture Capital is better off spent on lottery tickets rather than investing in E-Sports; you'll get a far better return. The difference is simple: Koreans are tryharding at the game, foreigners are tryharding in real-life.
sc2superfan101
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
3583 Posts
July 09 2013 00:09 GMT
#6343
On July 09 2013 09:01 KwarK wrote:
This assumes that most government waste is from intentional wasting in favour of ones own constituents rather than just being a law of large scale operations. I've seen no evidence in my experience that private enterprise is able to create a less wasteful operation. Remember private enterprise is what created advertising, a tremendously worthless exercise in convincing people they want something they don't really want through claiming that it's better than it actually is. The free market has its uses but it is not above waste.

Even if the majority of waste does not come from one's own constituents, the problem remains: there is no incentive for the politician to attack wasteful spending. For every vote you receive for doing so, another vote will be lost. The few politicians who do try to cut wasteful spending will always be outnumbered by those who do not try, for a multitude of reasons.

Advertising is not wasteful or worthless. Bad advertising is wasteful and potentially worse than worthless, but good advertising is great for the product and the businessman who sells the product. Also, it's not like the government doesn't engage in it's own advertising...

The free market is, of course, not above waste. However, given that there are large incentives to cut waste, it automatically is less wasteful than the government where no such incentive exists.
My fake plants died because I did not pretend to water them.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
July 09 2013 00:16 GMT
#6344
On July 09 2013 09:01 KwarK wrote:
This assumes that most government waste is from intentional wasting in favour of ones own constituents rather than just being a law of large scale operations. I've seen no evidence in my experience that private enterprise is able to create a less wasteful operation. Remember private enterprise is what created advertising, a tremendously worthless exercise in convincing people they want something they don't really want through claiming that it's better than it actually is. The free market has its uses but it is not above waste.

Advertising is pretty small and you need to advertise in one form or another to be efficient.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
July 09 2013 00:19 GMT
#6345
somehow i doubt the tank workers are the real interest group there. maybe the tank factory interests.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42634 Posts
July 09 2013 00:25 GMT
#6346
On July 09 2013 09:09 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 09 2013 09:01 KwarK wrote:
This assumes that most government waste is from intentional wasting in favour of ones own constituents rather than just being a law of large scale operations. I've seen no evidence in my experience that private enterprise is able to create a less wasteful operation. Remember private enterprise is what created advertising, a tremendously worthless exercise in convincing people they want something they don't really want through claiming that it's better than it actually is. The free market has its uses but it is not above waste.

Even if the majority of waste does not come from one's own constituents, the problem remains: there is no incentive for the politician to attack wasteful spending. For every vote you receive for doing so, another vote will be lost. The few politicians who do try to cut wasteful spending will always be outnumbered by those who do not try, for a multitude of reasons.

Advertising is not wasteful or worthless. Bad advertising is wasteful and potentially worse than worthless, but good advertising is great for the product and the businessman who sells the product. Also, it's not like the government doesn't engage in it's own advertising...

The free market is, of course, not above waste. However, given that there are large incentives to cut waste, it automatically is less wasteful than the government where no such incentive exists.

Imagine two products, one good, one bad. In a perfect world they would be labelled good product and bad product and people could choose the good one, the bad would go out of business and everyone could do free market high fives. In a reasonable world they might both be labelled product at which point you try them both, only use the good one from then on and the bad goes out of business and everyone can do free market high fives. In a world with advertising the bad product realises it can maintain a market share through telling everyone it's good and that it contains far more antioxidants than the rival product. Of course all these lies cost money so they have to increase the cost of the product so to pay for it so the consumer pays to be convinced to buy the product. Now the producers of the good product don't like this so they also contact an advertising agency who tell them to market their product as animal cruelty free (neither product in any way involved animals). Now they're back in the game and customers are forced into a confusing mess between antioxidants and being cruel to animals and either way they're paying to be told that this is what they want.

Have you never imagined how much cheaper things would be if everything sold in a grey box with plain text on it and the name of the product could be voted on by the people who consumed it from extracts of their reviews? Is it just me who finds the entire concept of advertising pretty depressing?
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42634 Posts
July 09 2013 00:27 GMT
#6347
On July 09 2013 09:16 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 09 2013 09:01 KwarK wrote:
This assumes that most government waste is from intentional wasting in favour of ones own constituents rather than just being a law of large scale operations. I've seen no evidence in my experience that private enterprise is able to create a less wasteful operation. Remember private enterprise is what created advertising, a tremendously worthless exercise in convincing people they want something they don't really want through claiming that it's better than it actually is. The free market has its uses but it is not above waste.

Advertising is pretty small and you need to advertise in one form or another to be efficient.

You need to advertise to be competitive, hence why people do it, but competitive is not the same thing as efficient, especially when taking a wider view of society.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
July 09 2013 00:33 GMT
#6348
On July 09 2013 09:27 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 09 2013 09:16 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On July 09 2013 09:01 KwarK wrote:
This assumes that most government waste is from intentional wasting in favour of ones own constituents rather than just being a law of large scale operations. I've seen no evidence in my experience that private enterprise is able to create a less wasteful operation. Remember private enterprise is what created advertising, a tremendously worthless exercise in convincing people they want something they don't really want through claiming that it's better than it actually is. The free market has its uses but it is not above waste.

Advertising is pretty small and you need to advertise in one form or another to be efficient.

You need to advertise to be competitive, hence why people do it, but competitive is not the same thing as efficient, especially when taking a wider view of society.

You need it to be efficient too. It's one of the levers management can pull to keep productive resources from going to waste.
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
July 09 2013 00:41 GMT
#6349
sc2superfan101, you're simplifying things way too much. Of course there's incentive for many parts of the government to remove waste. Do you know how many politicians run on platforms to cut "waste," win and eventually do cut a lot of that "waste"? If the constituents want to cut "waste" then the representative has strong incentive to cut it. The only problem in the world of politics is one man's "waste" may be another man's fortune, so, for instance, maybe Republicans want to cut administrative costs in education but Democrats don't want to, thus compromises are more likely to come forth as opposed to full-on cuts.

There's a lot of waste that is definitely much harder to get rid of, aka military, education, etc., but it would help if the people gave these politicians more incentive to cut such things (aka cut it or we won't vote for you). However, as long as there are vibrant distractions, such as social issues, such a movement will be hard to come by, and thus there is less incentive to cut. Let alone, it is extremely difficult to get a significant majority of the country to agree on what specifically to cut (remember the sequester?). In the end, the onus is mainly on the voters - that's what it means to live in a democracy. I won't say that voters always get their way, obviously, but it sure helps a lot when the country as a whole is involved. Political apathy is more damaging than politics itself.
Writer
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
July 09 2013 00:54 GMT
#6350
WASHINGTON — Increasingly frustrated by his dealings with President Hamid Karzai, President Obama is giving serious consideration to speeding up the withdrawal of United States forces from Afghanistan and to a “zero option” that would leave no American troops there after next year, according to American and European officials.

Mr. Obama is committed to ending America’s military involvement in Afghanistan by the end of 2014, and Obama administration officials have been negotiating with Afghan officials about leaving a small “residual force” behind. But his relationship with Mr. Karzai has been slowly unraveling, and reached a new low after an effort last month by the United States to begin peace talks with the Taliban in Qatar.

Mr. Karzai promptly repudiated the talks and ended negotiations with the United States over the long-term security deal that is needed to keep American forces in Afghanistan after 2014.

A videoconference between Mr. Obama and Mr. Karzai designed to defuse the tensions ended badly, according to both American and Afghan officials with knowledge of the conversation. Mr. Karzai, according to those sources, accused the United States of trying to negotiate a separate peace with both the Taliban and its backers in Pakistan, leaving Afghanistan’s fragile government exposed to its enemies.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
ziggurat
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada847 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-09 01:15:43
July 09 2013 01:11 GMT
#6351
On July 09 2013 08:25 KwarK wrote:
Except that people are inherently wasteful and will do the same thing. It's as if there is a disconnect in people's head when they think about government waste and where they think government is run by a special other type of incompetent species called governments who make exclusively shitty decisions. It's not, it's run by people who do what they can and if you got rid of government those same people would be being just as wasteful in their private market jobs. I have yet to work anywhere where I didn't think most of the people there don't actually do anything productive but in the western world we are so fucking affluent that we're allowed to be ridiculously wasteful and it doesn't really matter. If government waste disappeared you wouldn't suddenly get a bunch of extra money in your paycheck, your boss would decide to hire a hole digger and a hole filler in because your boss is the same breed of idiot that works for the government.

Edit after I read the rest of the posts:

The difference is that private enterprise is wasting someone else's money. I don't care if a GM wastes money by building cars inefficiently because they're not spending my money. Haha just kidding because GM got taxpayers money too! But generally speaking, people who waste money are wasting either their own money or shareholders' money. The government is actually taking money from taxpayers and then wasting it. Surely you agree that this is a significant difference
HunterX11
Profile Joined March 2009
United States1048 Posts
July 09 2013 01:14 GMT
#6352
On July 09 2013 10:11 ziggurat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 09 2013 08:25 KwarK wrote:
Every party everywhere is against waste but every party everywhere is made up of the same type of individuals who are either too incompetent or too complicit to reduce waste. Railing against waste is like railing against bad weather, it's a non argument against a straw man and even if it was a legitimate point neither side has a good track record on dealing with it.

It's a pretty good argument for small government. Large govt = lots of waste. Small govt = smaller amt of waste.


Not necessarily, however, as you can have small government with lots of waste: for example, the practice of privatizing government functions, then contracting them out at a higher price than the cost for the government to run them. The military hiring private contractors to do what the military itself once did, not only in terms of security, but logistics, is a good example.
Try using both Irradiate and Defensive Matrix on an Overlord. It looks pretty neat.
ziggurat
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada847 Posts
July 09 2013 01:20 GMT
#6353
On July 09 2013 09:41 Souma wrote:
sc2superfan101, you're simplifying things way too much. Of course there's incentive for many parts of the government to remove waste. Do you know how many politicians run on platforms to cut "waste," win and eventually do cut a lot of that "waste"? If the constituents want to cut "waste" then the representative has strong incentive to cut it. The only problem in the world of politics is one man's "waste" may be another man's fortune, so, for instance, maybe Republicans want to cut administrative costs in education but Democrats don't want to, thus compromises are more likely to come forth as opposed to full-on cuts.

There's a lot of waste that is definitely much harder to get rid of, aka military, education, etc., but it would help if the people gave these politicians more incentive to cut such things (aka cut it or we won't vote for you). However, as long as there are vibrant distractions, such as social issues, such a movement will be hard to come by, and thus there is less incentive to cut. Let alone, it is extremely difficult to get a significant majority of the country to agree on what specifically to cut (remember the sequester?). In the end, the onus is mainly on the voters - that's what it means to live in a democracy. I won't say that voters always get their way, obviously, but it sure helps a lot when the country as a whole is involved. Political apathy is more damaging than politics itself.

In theory this would be great. But it is usually quite hard to figure out if a politician is cutting waste or not. Very few voters spend the tremendous amount of time and effort that would be required to determine if waste is actually being cut or if a politician is just putting on a show of cutting waste. This is called rational political ignorance.
ziggurat
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada847 Posts
July 09 2013 01:21 GMT
#6354
On July 09 2013 10:14 HunterX11 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 09 2013 10:11 ziggurat wrote:
On July 09 2013 08:25 KwarK wrote:
Every party everywhere is against waste but every party everywhere is made up of the same type of individuals who are either too incompetent or too complicit to reduce waste. Railing against waste is like railing against bad weather, it's a non argument against a straw man and even if it was a legitimate point neither side has a good track record on dealing with it.

It's a pretty good argument for small government. Large govt = lots of waste. Small govt = smaller amt of waste.


Not necessarily, however, as you can have small government with lots of waste: for example, the practice of privatizing government functions, then contracting them out at a higher price than the cost for the government to run them. The military hiring private contractors to do what the military itself once did, not only in terms of security, but logistics, is a good example.

Well, to be clear, when I talk about small government in this context I am talking about a government that takes a smaller amount of money in taxes.
Roe
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada6002 Posts
July 09 2013 01:27 GMT
#6355
On July 09 2013 10:11 ziggurat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 09 2013 08:25 KwarK wrote:
Except that people are inherently wasteful and will do the same thing. It's as if there is a disconnect in people's head when they think about government waste and where they think government is run by a special other type of incompetent species called governments who make exclusively shitty decisions. It's not, it's run by people who do what they can and if you got rid of government those same people would be being just as wasteful in their private market jobs. I have yet to work anywhere where I didn't think most of the people there don't actually do anything productive but in the western world we are so fucking affluent that we're allowed to be ridiculously wasteful and it doesn't really matter. If government waste disappeared you wouldn't suddenly get a bunch of extra money in your paycheck, your boss would decide to hire a hole digger and a hole filler in because your boss is the same breed of idiot that works for the government.

Edit after I read the rest of the posts:

The difference is that private enterprise is wasting someone else's money. I don't care if a GM wastes money by building cars inefficiently because they're not spending my money. Haha just kidding because GM got taxpayers money too! But generally speaking, people who waste money are wasting either their own money or shareholders' money. The government is actually taking money from taxpayers and then wasting it. Surely you agree that this is a significant difference


This is really only true for smaller, more local companies. With corporations and parents/child companies it gets much harder to keep your money away from the organization and soon management becomes just another form of government, all the while incredibly inefficient since it isn't designed to represent you in any way. If you think taxes are too high, you're free to move to another state or country, just like you're free to try a different brand of car.
ziggurat
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada847 Posts
July 09 2013 01:30 GMT
#6356
On July 09 2013 10:27 Roe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 09 2013 10:11 ziggurat wrote:
On July 09 2013 08:25 KwarK wrote:
Except that people are inherently wasteful and will do the same thing. It's as if there is a disconnect in people's head when they think about government waste and where they think government is run by a special other type of incompetent species called governments who make exclusively shitty decisions. It's not, it's run by people who do what they can and if you got rid of government those same people would be being just as wasteful in their private market jobs. I have yet to work anywhere where I didn't think most of the people there don't actually do anything productive but in the western world we are so fucking affluent that we're allowed to be ridiculously wasteful and it doesn't really matter. If government waste disappeared you wouldn't suddenly get a bunch of extra money in your paycheck, your boss would decide to hire a hole digger and a hole filler in because your boss is the same breed of idiot that works for the government.

Edit after I read the rest of the posts:

The difference is that private enterprise is wasting someone else's money. I don't care if a GM wastes money by building cars inefficiently because they're not spending my money. Haha just kidding because GM got taxpayers money too! But generally speaking, people who waste money are wasting either their own money or shareholders' money. The government is actually taking money from taxpayers and then wasting it. Surely you agree that this is a significant difference


This is really only true for smaller, more local companies. With corporations and parents/child companies it gets much harder to keep your money away from the organization and soon management becomes just another form of government, all the while incredibly inefficient since it isn't designed to represent you in any way. If you think taxes are too high, you're free to move to another state or country, just like you're free to try a different brand of car.

1. I can't think of any company that I can't avoid giving my money too, can you list a few examples of what you're talking about?

2. Do you really think buying a different car is comparable to moving to a different country? Because I can think of one or two differences.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
July 09 2013 01:39 GMT
#6357
On July 09 2013 10:27 Roe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 09 2013 10:11 ziggurat wrote:
On July 09 2013 08:25 KwarK wrote:
Except that people are inherently wasteful and will do the same thing. It's as if there is a disconnect in people's head when they think about government waste and where they think government is run by a special other type of incompetent species called governments who make exclusively shitty decisions. It's not, it's run by people who do what they can and if you got rid of government those same people would be being just as wasteful in their private market jobs. I have yet to work anywhere where I didn't think most of the people there don't actually do anything productive but in the western world we are so fucking affluent that we're allowed to be ridiculously wasteful and it doesn't really matter. If government waste disappeared you wouldn't suddenly get a bunch of extra money in your paycheck, your boss would decide to hire a hole digger and a hole filler in because your boss is the same breed of idiot that works for the government.

Edit after I read the rest of the posts:

The difference is that private enterprise is wasting someone else's money. I don't care if a GM wastes money by building cars inefficiently because they're not spending my money. Haha just kidding because GM got taxpayers money too! But generally speaking, people who waste money are wasting either their own money or shareholders' money. The government is actually taking money from taxpayers and then wasting it. Surely you agree that this is a significant difference


This is really only true for smaller, more local companies. With corporations and parents/child companies it gets much harder to keep your money away from the organization and soon management becomes just another form of government, all the while incredibly inefficient since it isn't designed to represent you in any way. If you think taxes are too high, you're free to move to another state or country, just like you're free to try a different brand of car.

You're right that a large company can wind up with a 'bureaucratic'-ish management. But generally speaking, a large business is more efficient than a small one.
Roe
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada6002 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-09 02:06:54
July 09 2013 01:59 GMT
#6358
On July 09 2013 10:39 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 09 2013 10:27 Roe wrote:
On July 09 2013 10:11 ziggurat wrote:
On July 09 2013 08:25 KwarK wrote:
Except that people are inherently wasteful and will do the same thing. It's as if there is a disconnect in people's head when they think about government waste and where they think government is run by a special other type of incompetent species called governments who make exclusively shitty decisions. It's not, it's run by people who do what they can and if you got rid of government those same people would be being just as wasteful in their private market jobs. I have yet to work anywhere where I didn't think most of the people there don't actually do anything productive but in the western world we are so fucking affluent that we're allowed to be ridiculously wasteful and it doesn't really matter. If government waste disappeared you wouldn't suddenly get a bunch of extra money in your paycheck, your boss would decide to hire a hole digger and a hole filler in because your boss is the same breed of idiot that works for the government.

Edit after I read the rest of the posts:

The difference is that private enterprise is wasting someone else's money. I don't care if a GM wastes money by building cars inefficiently because they're not spending my money. Haha just kidding because GM got taxpayers money too! But generally speaking, people who waste money are wasting either their own money or shareholders' money. The government is actually taking money from taxpayers and then wasting it. Surely you agree that this is a significant difference


This is really only true for smaller, more local companies. With corporations and parents/child companies it gets much harder to keep your money away from the organization and soon management becomes just another form of government, all the while incredibly inefficient since it isn't designed to represent you in any way. If you think taxes are too high, you're free to move to another state or country, just like you're free to try a different brand of car.

You're right that a large company can wind up with a 'bureaucratic'-ish management. But generally speaking, a large business is more efficient than a small one.


I don't see any reason why. The more layers of management you add, the less efficient an organization will be.

On July 09 2013 10:30 ziggurat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 09 2013 10:27 Roe wrote:
On July 09 2013 10:11 ziggurat wrote:
On July 09 2013 08:25 KwarK wrote:
Except that people are inherently wasteful and will do the same thing. It's as if there is a disconnect in people's head when they think about government waste and where they think government is run by a special other type of incompetent species called governments who make exclusively shitty decisions. It's not, it's run by people who do what they can and if you got rid of government those same people would be being just as wasteful in their private market jobs. I have yet to work anywhere where I didn't think most of the people there don't actually do anything productive but in the western world we are so fucking affluent that we're allowed to be ridiculously wasteful and it doesn't really matter. If government waste disappeared you wouldn't suddenly get a bunch of extra money in your paycheck, your boss would decide to hire a hole digger and a hole filler in because your boss is the same breed of idiot that works for the government.

Edit after I read the rest of the posts:

The difference is that private enterprise is wasting someone else's money. I don't care if a GM wastes money by building cars inefficiently because they're not spending my money. Haha just kidding because GM got taxpayers money too! But generally speaking, people who waste money are wasting either their own money or shareholders' money. The government is actually taking money from taxpayers and then wasting it. Surely you agree that this is a significant difference


This is really only true for smaller, more local companies. With corporations and parents/child companies it gets much harder to keep your money away from the organization and soon management becomes just another form of government, all the while incredibly inefficient since it isn't designed to represent you in any way. If you think taxes are too high, you're free to move to another state or country, just like you're free to try a different brand of car.

1. I can't think of any company that I can't avoid giving my money too, can you list a few examples of what you're talking about?

2. Do you really think buying a different car is comparable to moving to a different country? Because I can think of one or two differences.


1. Just Disney for example owns a massive amount of different companies. Have you by any chance seen Adam Sandler's movie "Jack and Jill"? A great example of corporate sponsorship chains getting into places you wouldn't expect. The examples run on and on when you look into who owns who, and you'll find it is indeed harder than when there are independent companies in the market to make a fully conscious decision of who to pay for a product. (I wouldn't say completely impossible, but the more incorporation there is, the less choice you have).

2: Cars were just an example of course. Any product you buy from a company is based on a choice, not forced like taxes as you said. So to reiterate, the point stands that
ziggurat
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada847 Posts
July 09 2013 02:43 GMT
#6359
On July 09 2013 10:59 Roe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 09 2013 10:39 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On July 09 2013 10:27 Roe wrote:
On July 09 2013 10:11 ziggurat wrote:
On July 09 2013 08:25 KwarK wrote:
Except that people are inherently wasteful and will do the same thing. It's as if there is a disconnect in people's head when they think about government waste and where they think government is run by a special other type of incompetent species called governments who make exclusively shitty decisions. It's not, it's run by people who do what they can and if you got rid of government those same people would be being just as wasteful in their private market jobs. I have yet to work anywhere where I didn't think most of the people there don't actually do anything productive but in the western world we are so fucking affluent that we're allowed to be ridiculously wasteful and it doesn't really matter. If government waste disappeared you wouldn't suddenly get a bunch of extra money in your paycheck, your boss would decide to hire a hole digger and a hole filler in because your boss is the same breed of idiot that works for the government.

Edit after I read the rest of the posts:

The difference is that private enterprise is wasting someone else's money. I don't care if a GM wastes money by building cars inefficiently because they're not spending my money. Haha just kidding because GM got taxpayers money too! But generally speaking, people who waste money are wasting either their own money or shareholders' money. The government is actually taking money from taxpayers and then wasting it. Surely you agree that this is a significant difference


This is really only true for smaller, more local companies. With corporations and parents/child companies it gets much harder to keep your money away from the organization and soon management becomes just another form of government, all the while incredibly inefficient since it isn't designed to represent you in any way. If you think taxes are too high, you're free to move to another state or country, just like you're free to try a different brand of car.

You're right that a large company can wind up with a 'bureaucratic'-ish management. But generally speaking, a large business is more efficient than a small one.


I don't see any reason why. The more layers of management you add, the less efficient an organization will be.

Show nested quote +
On July 09 2013 10:30 ziggurat wrote:
On July 09 2013 10:27 Roe wrote:
On July 09 2013 10:11 ziggurat wrote:
On July 09 2013 08:25 KwarK wrote:
Except that people are inherently wasteful and will do the same thing. It's as if there is a disconnect in people's head when they think about government waste and where they think government is run by a special other type of incompetent species called governments who make exclusively shitty decisions. It's not, it's run by people who do what they can and if you got rid of government those same people would be being just as wasteful in their private market jobs. I have yet to work anywhere where I didn't think most of the people there don't actually do anything productive but in the western world we are so fucking affluent that we're allowed to be ridiculously wasteful and it doesn't really matter. If government waste disappeared you wouldn't suddenly get a bunch of extra money in your paycheck, your boss would decide to hire a hole digger and a hole filler in because your boss is the same breed of idiot that works for the government.

Edit after I read the rest of the posts:

The difference is that private enterprise is wasting someone else's money. I don't care if a GM wastes money by building cars inefficiently because they're not spending my money. Haha just kidding because GM got taxpayers money too! But generally speaking, people who waste money are wasting either their own money or shareholders' money. The government is actually taking money from taxpayers and then wasting it. Surely you agree that this is a significant difference


This is really only true for smaller, more local companies. With corporations and parents/child companies it gets much harder to keep your money away from the organization and soon management becomes just another form of government, all the while incredibly inefficient since it isn't designed to represent you in any way. If you think taxes are too high, you're free to move to another state or country, just like you're free to try a different brand of car.

1. I can't think of any company that I can't avoid giving my money too, can you list a few examples of what you're talking about?

2. Do you really think buying a different car is comparable to moving to a different country? Because I can think of one or two differences.


1. Just Disney for example owns a massive amount of different companies. Have you by any chance seen Adam Sandler's movie "Jack and Jill"? A great example of corporate sponsorship chains getting into places you wouldn't expect. The examples run on and on when you look into who owns who, and you'll find it is indeed harder than when there are independent companies in the market to make a fully conscious decision of who to pay for a product. (I wouldn't say completely impossible, but the more incorporation there is, the less choice you have).

2: Cars were just an example of course. Any product you buy from a company is based on a choice, not forced like taxes as you said. So to reiterate, the point stands that

It's easy to avoid Disney products, so this is not even a good example. But if I do see a Disney movie that was made inefficiently it's not my money that's being wasted -- it's the shareholders'.

As for your second argument, I really don't understand what you're talking about. I think you may have stopped in the middle of a sentence.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
July 09 2013 05:14 GMT
#6360
On July 09 2013 10:59 Roe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 09 2013 10:39 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On July 09 2013 10:27 Roe wrote:
On July 09 2013 10:11 ziggurat wrote:
On July 09 2013 08:25 KwarK wrote:
Except that people are inherently wasteful and will do the same thing. It's as if there is a disconnect in people's head when they think about government waste and where they think government is run by a special other type of incompetent species called governments who make exclusively shitty decisions. It's not, it's run by people who do what they can and if you got rid of government those same people would be being just as wasteful in their private market jobs. I have yet to work anywhere where I didn't think most of the people there don't actually do anything productive but in the western world we are so fucking affluent that we're allowed to be ridiculously wasteful and it doesn't really matter. If government waste disappeared you wouldn't suddenly get a bunch of extra money in your paycheck, your boss would decide to hire a hole digger and a hole filler in because your boss is the same breed of idiot that works for the government.

Edit after I read the rest of the posts:

The difference is that private enterprise is wasting someone else's money. I don't care if a GM wastes money by building cars inefficiently because they're not spending my money. Haha just kidding because GM got taxpayers money too! But generally speaking, people who waste money are wasting either their own money or shareholders' money. The government is actually taking money from taxpayers and then wasting it. Surely you agree that this is a significant difference


This is really only true for smaller, more local companies. With corporations and parents/child companies it gets much harder to keep your money away from the organization and soon management becomes just another form of government, all the while incredibly inefficient since it isn't designed to represent you in any way. If you think taxes are too high, you're free to move to another state or country, just like you're free to try a different brand of car.

You're right that a large company can wind up with a 'bureaucratic'-ish management. But generally speaking, a large business is more efficient than a small one.


I don't see any reason why. The more layers of management you add, the less efficient an organization will be.

This says it better than I can:

Big firms can reap economies of scale. A big factory uses far less cash and labour to make each car or steel pipe than a small workshop. Big supermarkets such as the villainous Walmart offer a wider range of high-quality goods at lower prices than any corner store. Size allows specialisation, which fosters innovation. An engineer at Google or Toyota can focus all his energy on a specific problem; he will not be asked to fix the boss's laptop as well. Manufacturers in Europe with 250 or more workers are 30-40% more productive than “micro” firms with fewer than ten employees. It is telling that micro enterprises are common in Greece, but rare in Germany.

Link

You're right that adding on layers of management can make a company really inefficient. But most companies recognize that. Since the 80's companies have been looking for new ways to flatten management structures and reduce bureaucracy.
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