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On February 11 2016 17:42 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2016 17:29 Introvert wrote:On February 11 2016 17:18 SoSexy wrote:On February 11 2016 17:09 Introvert wrote:
If experts can't agree, why should we agree with them? The world isn't run by experts anyway.
That's just a really weird question on multiple levels. RIght. So, if two doctors don't agree on a remedy, you might as well ask your plumber. But i doub you do that, isn't it? Experts have different points of view but usually they have 20+ years of work in the subject. Seeing that you post quite a bit the European equivalent of this thread, I'm confused by your problem. (Most) people here have two things: ideas and free time. They choose to spend it discussing things that interest them. This includes things about which they are not experts. People do this all the time. Aside from a few activists, I don't think anyone views this forum as a place where great issues are decided. I'm all with you as far as discussing is concerned, no big deal with that. I am referring to certain posts which really look delusional. 'I have no idea about the subject but we should do X' has no place in a rational, informative discussion imo
Perhaps I wasn't reading close enough, but I didn't see anyone do that. I certainly didn't do that.
I've used that anecdote before, and its purpose is not to just say something, but provide an alternate example to what DPB said. Nor did I propose a particular set of solutions.
I may be the confused one here.
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I was fortunate to go to a good public school here (Jefferson County, Louisville KY). Unfortunately I know the vast majority of schools are under performing. Though my county is probably not very standard in many regards. Hell we still bus kids all around the city (when I was still in school the bus ride was over 2 hours to school in the morning and back home. 4 hours of the day spent busing was quite shit).
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On February 11 2016 16:31 Kickstart wrote:
It seems that the maths is what gets the most hate. The main gripe I've seen expressed is that the methodology used to find the answer is weighted more than the answer. Common core doesn't care as much about the student getting the correct answer as it does with teaching the student how to figure out the correct answer. Mostly parents complain when they see some methodology they've never seen or don't remember and believe the 'old' methods are better and quicker (memorizing multiplication tables, etc.).
I understand those complaint but I agree with the premise that an education should focus more on critical thinking than just getting the 'right' answer.
Also from what I've seen the standards are rather broad in many areas and it is left up to teachers to figure out how to go about it, which provides for varying results.
I just had a look at the common core standards for grade 8, and i don't see any of that in there. They appear to be some pretty normal teaching standards, quite in line with the teaching standards here in Germany. (Some of them i would get shouted at for by my didactics professors though "understanding x" is not testable!") Obviously there are some minor differences, but they basically broadly state the subjects that should be taught, with a slight emphesis on the "understanding" as opposed to the "cooking book" style of maths. I haven't found a single example problem in there, so if there are problems which are "dumb" (which surely might be the case), they are not a problem with common core, but with the book that they are in.
The problem you describe is mostly just a shift in the ideas of maths didactics, and not really confined to common core. You see, most maths teachers like maths, and think it is a beautiful thing. So we want to show that beauty to our students, and make them understand what they are doing, as opposed to giving them a large cookbook of actions that they can follow by the numbers to get the right result, without having any idea of what they are actually doing. This might be different from what some parents remember from school, but sometimes things change, and different is not necessarily bad.
I could easily give you a cooking recipe for pretty much any problem you will encounter in school, up to possibly twelfth grade and integration. And if you are good enough at memorizing, you can memorize all of those recipes, and as long as the questions are asked in a way that allows you to easily discern which recipe to use, you can ace every test. And after you are done with school, you will never be able to use that knowledge in any context outside of answering school exam questions again, because in real life, questions are not formulated like they are in a math exam.
In my opinion, that is utterly pointless. I would rather you understand the basic principles, and be able to form your own recipes for specific problems that you may encounter. You should be able to cook a meal out of what you have at home, even if it does not exactly fit the recipe and is arranged in exactly the correct way in your fridge.
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On February 11 2016 17:24 Kickstart wrote:
From what I remember they only spoke with a few experts at the beginning and then didn't consult with anyone at all when passing common core. Experts weren't really involved at all.
That seems to be a very common misconception. Here is a list of just some of the education-related sources that helped put together Common Core:
-Teachers, National Education Association, American Federation of Teachers, National Council of Teachers of Mathematics, and National Council of Teachers of English;
-State education chiefs, national educational commissioners, chief state school officers, National Governors Association Center for Best Practices, and Council of Chief State School Officers;
-National and international compilations and comparisons of educational statistics, including research from both the National Assessment of Education Progress and the Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study.
From a practical and realistic perspective, this is pretty much as good as you're going to get in terms of having discussions with experts about educational standards and skills.
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(CNN)The armed occupiers of a wildlife refuge in Oregon say they will turn themselves in on Thursday morning, hours after Cliven Bundy -- the father of protest leader Ammon Bundy -- was arrested by federal agents.
A Facebook page for his ranch announced that Cliven Bundy, who came to the national spotlight in a fight with the federal Bureau of Land Management over grazing rights for his cattle in 2014, was heading to Oregon earlier Wednesday.
"It's time," the post said. "Cliven Bundy is headed to the Harney County Resource Center in Burns Oregon."
After landing in Portland, Oregon, Bundy was taken into federal custody, the FBI said.
Source
Bout damn time.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
you need to examine the efficacy of this with empirical data. academic background experts may simply put theory in a high position
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Hence the third bullet point, listing a ton of empirical data...
-National and international compilations and comparisons of educational statistics, including research from both the National Assessment of Education Progress and the Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study.
(Assuming you're responding to what/ who was used during the Common Core creation process.)
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
im not saying the standard is no good etc. it's just that it has to be flexible and open to uptake from ongoing practice. each district may even adapt to their own particular circumstances though that may require more resources.
i can also see some places trying to get around the standard by abusing this kind of a process so idk it's not very easy
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On February 11 2016 16:31 Kickstart wrote:
It seems that the maths is what gets the most hate. The main gripe I've seen expressed is that the methodology used to find the answer is weighted more than the answer. Common core doesn't care as much about the student getting the correct answer as it does with teaching the student how to figure out the correct answer. Mostly parents complain when they see some methodology they've never seen or don't remember and believe the 'old' methods are better and quicker (memorizing multiplication tables, etc.).
I understand those complaint but I agree with the premise that an education should focus more on critical thinking than just getting the 'right' answer.
Also from what I've seen the standards are rather broad in many areas and it is left up to teachers to figure out how to go about it, which provides for varying results.
The problem is, when you emphasize the 'right' way to get an answer when there are many correct ways to get the right answer.
ie grading on 'the process' is fine as long as you are grading on (is each step shown & is each step legitimate) instead of (is this the 'officially approved' step)
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
The idea of pretending that the multiplicative commutative law doesn't exist because matrices will become a thing 10 years down the line is pretty stupid. It adds unnecessary complexity and teaches nothing in a country where people are already pretty bad at math as a whole.
All forms of arguments of the form of "correct method in general but it's not done my way" tend to detract from education, especially in the early years.
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Education, in the vague sense, isn’t about learning a set of things. It is preparing the student to navigate the ever changing world and deal with all the hazards that entails. Knowing your multiplication tables is cool, but solving word problems is the thing that teaches the student how to apply math to real life.
The promised land of education is giving the students the skills to determine what career they want on their own and the ability to enter that career. But that requires that education expose students to lots of different options and experiences that may not be part of any overarching lesson plan, which leads people demand be justified as “educational”.
Which is why hyper focusing on test scores is a red herring. It railroads the student and teacher into focusing on a single aspect of the process as the most valuable.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
they need to learn the maths
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Cbc endorsing Hillary Clinton seemed obvious, despite the slight hype of getting black voters. She continously shows how rooted she is in the establishment, especially since she won't release her fund raising efforts as bernie has attempted to. *cough* big donors.
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On February 12 2016 00:15 oneofthem wrote:
im not saying the standard is no good etc. it's just that it has to be flexible and open to uptake from ongoing practice. each district may even adapt to their own particular circumstances though that may require more resources.
i can also see some places trying to get around the standard by abusing this kind of a process so idk it's not very easy
Which standard are you referring to? Common Core, like all state and national educational initiatives, is a list of standards and skills and practices. And it's 100% expected for them to be interpreted in context, based on specific schools and classes and students. That's never an issue.
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On February 12 2016 01:23 Shin_Gouki wrote:
Cbc endorsing Hillary Clinton seemed obvious, despite the slight hype of getting black voters. She continously shows how rooted she is in the establishment, especially since she won't release her fund raising efforts as bernie has attempted to. *cough* big donors.
I love this narrative about how basically everyone who supports Hillary is the establishment...
Hillary has had donations from over 700K people, including me. Yes it's lower than Bernie who has had 1M, but it's faaaaar from saying she's only able to raise money from bundlers and max contributors.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On February 12 2016 01:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2016 00:15 oneofthem wrote:
im not saying the standard is no good etc. it's just that it has to be flexible and open to uptake from ongoing practice. each district may even adapt to their own particular circumstances though that may require more resources.
i can also see some places trying to get around the standard by abusing this kind of a process so idk it's not very easy Which standard are you referring to? Common Core, like all state and national educational initiatives, are a list of standards and skills and practices. And it's 100% expected for them to be interpreted in context, based on specific schools and classes and students. That's never an issue.
the instruction material basically.
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On February 12 2016 01:33 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2016 01:23 Shin_Gouki wrote:
Cbc endorsing Hillary Clinton seemed obvious, despite the slight hype of getting black voters. She continously shows how rooted she is in the establishment, especially since she won't release her fund raising efforts as bernie has attempted to. *cough* big donors. I love this narrative about how basically everyone who supports Hillary is the establishment... Hillary has had donations from over 700K people, including me. Yes it's lower than Bernie who has had 1M, but it's faaaaar from saying she's only able to raise money from bundlers and max contributors.
Butterfield declared Hillary a long standing friend who has always been there during cbc's need. It's different to point at someone, like a black panther, who endorses her campaign. The cbc last year didn't even wish to meet with bernie when he attempted to reach out them.
+ Show Spoiler +
I don't want to toot the establishment horn, but she makes it hard to believe she's fighting when the support she gains is otherwise.
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On February 12 2016 01:33 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2016 01:23 Shin_Gouki wrote:
Cbc endorsing Hillary Clinton seemed obvious, despite the slight hype of getting black voters. She continously shows how rooted she is in the establishment, especially since she won't release her fund raising efforts as bernie has attempted to. *cough* big donors. I love this narrative about how basically everyone who supports Hillary is the establishment... Hillary has had donations from over 700K people, including me. Yes it's lower than Bernie who has had 1M, but it's faaaaar from saying she's only able to raise money from bundlers and max contributors.
It’s a troubling trend that reminds me of the tea party and their tendency to go full burn down if they don’t get exactly what they want. Of course, Sanders is going to endorse Hilary if she wins the nomination and hopefully he can pull his supporters over, rather than them just walking away.
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On February 12 2016 01:37 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2016 01:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 12 2016 00:15 oneofthem wrote:
im not saying the standard is no good etc. it's just that it has to be flexible and open to uptake from ongoing practice. each district may even adapt to their own particular circumstances though that may require more resources.
i can also see some places trying to get around the standard by abusing this kind of a process so idk it's not very easy Which standard are you referring to? Common Core, like all state and national educational initiatives, are a list of standards and skills and practices. And it's 100% expected for them to be interpreted in context, based on specific schools and classes and students. That's never an issue. the instruction material basically.
Do you mean the content? Do you disagree with any of the content in particular? Which content strands? I provided the Common Core links in a previous post.
Do you mean how the content is being taught? Because, again, Common Core doesn't give teachers marching orders on how they need to instruct the individual classes; that's left up to the discretion of the individual teacher.
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On February 12 2016 00:56 LegalLord wrote:
The idea of pretending that the multiplicative commutative law doesn't exist because matrices will become a thing 10 years down the line is pretty stupid. It adds unnecessary complexity and teaches nothing in a country where people are already pretty bad at math as a whole.
I think you'll be happy to know that that's literally never an issue in elementary school. Students are generally introduced to the terms "commutative" and "associative" in grades 4-6, and they'll surely have discussions over which basic operations are commutative/ associative and which aren't... but I've never heard of a teacher say that "the multiplicative commutative law doesn't exist" because eventually they'll learn about matrices. And if a teacher did say that, it would be her fault for being remiss in her explanation, rather than the fault of the curriculum or Common Core. So don't worry 
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EPT
