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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23581 Posts
February 06 2016 01:51 GMT
#57021
On February 06 2016 10:22 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
In the Iowa Democratic party’s chaotic attempt to report caucus results on Monday night, the results in at least one precinct were unilaterally changed by the party as it attempted to deal with the culmination of a rushed and imperfect process overseeing the first-in-the-nation nominating contest.

In Grinnell Ward 1, the precinct where elite liberal arts college Grinnell College is located, 19 delegates were awarded to Bernie Sanders and seven were awarded to Hillary Clinton on caucus night. However, the Iowa Democratic party decided to shift one delegate from Sanders to Clinton on the night and did not notify precinct secretary J Pablo Silva that they had done so. Silva only discovered that this happened the next day, when checking the precinct results in other parts of the county.

The shift of one delegate at a county convention level would not have significantly affected the ultimate outcome of the caucus, but rather, it raises questions aboutthe Iowa Democratic party’s management of caucus night.

The Iowa Democratic party had long been plagued with organizational issues around the caucus and failed to find hundreds of needed volunteers to oversee individual precinct caucuses just over a week before Monday. The result was a disorganized process that lent itself to chaos and conspiracy theories. Although Andy McGuire, the chair of the Iowa Democratic party, is a longtime Clinton supporter whose license plate once read HRC 2016, no one familiar with the issue has accused the error of being a partisan process. Instead, they have blamed simple mismanagement.

The party issued a statement early on Tuesday, detailing final delegate numbers that had Clinton winning the caucuses. However, the statement came shortly after party officials gave the impression to the Sanders campaign that no statement with results would be issued at all that night.

Instead, they were told “they would reconvene at 9am and let’s talk”. As of now, Clinton has a lead of just over two-tenths of a percent over Sanders in the overall apportionment of delegates in Iowa. This would equal an overall share of 23 delegates to the national convention for Clinton, to Sanders’ 21. The Iowa Democratic party has refused to audit the results.


Source


It's basically a repeat of the debates. Hillary and Bernie say they are on board with an audit but Hillary says "whatever the state party decides" as if she isn't influencing their decision. If she really wanted the audit it would already be in progress.

Just like as soon as she really wanted a debate the DNC hopped on board.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
February 06 2016 02:28 GMT
#57022
Hey guys, remember that huge socio-political movement, Occupy Wall St? Remember how it revolutionized the US government and put into power strong, populist politicians who were intent on punishing bankers and making sure growth was felt by all Americans and not just the elite? Oh wait, that was the Tea Party that got its people into Congress and various state governments, with their middle-aged and elderly voter turnout that you can set your clock to. But I'm sure 2016 will be different!
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
February 06 2016 02:32 GMT
#57023
Totally the same thing lmao.
Writer
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
February 06 2016 02:38 GMT
#57024
On February 06 2016 11:28 aksfjh wrote:
Hey guys, remember that huge socio-political movement, Occupy Wall St? Remember how it revolutionized the US government and put into power strong, populist politicians who were intent on punishing bankers and making sure growth was felt by all Americans and not just the elite? Oh wait, that was the Tea Party that got its people into Congress and various state governments, with their middle-aged and elderly voter turnout that you can set your clock to. But I'm sure 2016 will be different!


People seem to think that Occupy was a complete joke, but are blind to the ways it has worked in changing the conversation in America.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-06 03:01:29
February 06 2016 03:00 GMT
#57025
Yes, of course, the economy has not been working for most Americans. Yes, of course, we have special interests that are unfortunately doing too much to rig the game.

But there’s also the continuing challenges of racism, of sexism, of discrimination against the LGBT community, of the way that we treat people as opposed to how we want to be treated.


The only thing I can think when I listen to this debate is that Hillary is veering towards the classic identity-based politics that takes as its mission a guarantee of access and participation in consumer society in a manner comparable to all others of equal class standing. Rebuttals to Bernie always center around a rhetorical sleight of hand where she diminishes the totalizing effects of late capitalism on the voting public and hypes up the fact that black people aren't members of the managerial class in equal proportion to their white compatriots.

Hillary's quote from the New Hampshire debate above should be the other way around:

OF COURSE racism and homophobia are problems. BUT the economy isn't working, the game is rigged, and rather than building solidarity for the vast underclasses to change this, everyone is distracted by these issues that are fundamentally linked to labor exploitation, predatory finance, and the underlying economic logic.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
February 06 2016 03:05 GMT
#57026
Occupy didn't work because they refused to primary Democrats, or at the very least failed to even try.

If it were a serious group that changed things one or more of: Mark Warner, Claire McCaskill, Bill Nelson, Jon Tester, or Bob Casey would have faced a serious challenger on the left in the primaries. In reality, 4 of those 5 faced serious Republican challengers after cruising to victory in the primary and two other candidates I would have nominated as potential OWS victims in 2010/2011 Ben Nelson and Joe Manchin, didn't run for reelection because they knew they would get stomped in the general, not because of a challenge from the left.

I suppose one might see Bernie as an OWS creation, but I wouldn't make that causal connection. He preceded them, he didn't really fuel them, he wasn't fueled by them. He exists because a large % of Democrats were always socialists (or as I have argued before Socialists who realized that they could get 99% of the power with 1% of the political liability by being for high-progressive-taxes, subsidies, and heavy regulation) and in a year where they have a crappy field are testing the waters on bringing that all to the fore.
Freeeeeeedom
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
February 06 2016 03:09 GMT
#57027
Another poll.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-poll-idUSMTZSAPEC253J02S1

Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders has erased Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's wide lead for the Democratic presidential nomination since the start of year, putting the two in a dead heat nationally, according to a Reuters/Ipsos poll.

Clinton leads Sanders 48 percent to 45 percent among Democratic voters, according to the poll of 512 Americans, conducted Feb. 2-5 following the Iowa caucus. The poll has a credibility interval of 5 percentage points.


FEEL THE BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERN.
Writer
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
February 06 2016 03:14 GMT
#57028
On February 06 2016 11:38 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 06 2016 11:28 aksfjh wrote:
Hey guys, remember that huge socio-political movement, Occupy Wall St? Remember how it revolutionized the US government and put into power strong, populist politicians who were intent on punishing bankers and making sure growth was felt by all Americans and not just the elite? Oh wait, that was the Tea Party that got its people into Congress and various state governments, with their middle-aged and elderly voter turnout that you can set your clock to. But I'm sure 2016 will be different!


People seem to think that Occupy was a complete joke, but are blind to the ways it has worked in changing the conversation in America.

I definitely agree with that. I may have mistakenly insinuated that the Occupy movement didn't do anything, which isn't true. However, it pales in comparison, politically, to what the Tea Party accomplished. We don't hear about "Occupy Democrats" in government, but constantly hear about "Tea Party Republicans." That's the part I'm mocking, that somehow Bernie Sanders will bring out people that didn't come out of the last Democrat populist push.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
February 06 2016 03:17 GMT
#57029
Echoing the Silicon Valley technology companies that famously offer generous perks to retain their employees, the military is kicking off a new pilot program that will cover the costs of egg and sperm freezing for all active-duty soldiers.

The Department of Defense told Al Jazeera that it will spend $150 million over the next five years for soldiers who elect to freeze their eggs or sperm in order to defer childbearing or in the case of injury.

The move is part of a package of personnel reforms outlined by Department of Defense Secretary Ash Carter last week. It’s part of an effort to make the military more family friendly and encourage troops to remain enlisted. The changes include 12 weeks of paid maternity leave for women, double the previous amount. Carter also vowed to expand paternity leave — currently, men in the U.S. military receive only 10 days — and to extend the hours of military child-care centers.

“We can help our men and women preserve their ability to start a family, even if they suffer certain combat injuries," said Carter said in a Jan. 28 media briefing at the Pentagon. "That's why we will cover the cost of freezing sperm or eggs through a pilot program for active-duty service members."

The policy is part of the DOD’s Force of the Future Initiative, which Carter began planning when he became defense secretary in early 2015. The goal is to enhance the workplace for “our most competitive edge—our people,” and compete with the private sector for top talent, as Carter outlined in a memo to the department in November 2015 (PDF). Other plans include establishing an entrepreneur-in-residence program, expanding a pilot program to give sabbaticals from the military and installing 3,600 lactation rooms at DOD facilities.

“We are not Google. We are not Wal-Mart. We're war fighters,” Carter said in the Jan. 28 speech. “But that doesn't mean we should not be challenging ourselves just like the private sector. To modernize our workplace and workforce, to retain and attract the top talent we need, so that our force can remain the best for future generations.”

While the military will spend $150 million for elective egg and sperm freezing procedures, it will not cover the costs of in-vitro fertilization, according to Brad Carson, who is leading the Force of the Future program. That benefit is available only to active-duty soldiers who get injured. But Carson says the DOD is looking to expand IVF coverage for more active-duty service members. (The Department of Veterans Affairs does not cover IVF for wounded veterans.)


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
darthfoley
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States8004 Posts
February 06 2016 03:53 GMT
#57030
On February 06 2016 12:09 Souma wrote:
Another poll.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-poll-idUSMTZSAPEC253J02S1

Show nested quote +
Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders has erased Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's wide lead for the Democratic presidential nomination since the start of year, putting the two in a dead heat nationally, according to a Reuters/Ipsos poll.

Clinton leads Sanders 48 percent to 45 percent among Democratic voters, according to the poll of 512 Americans, conducted Feb. 2-5 following the Iowa caucus. The poll has a credibility interval of 5 percentage points.


FEEL THE BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERN.


we in this bitch. Hoping to see this trend continue!
watch the wall collide with my fist, mostly over problems that i know i should fix
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-06 04:10:15
February 06 2016 04:07 GMT
#57031
problem with occupy and sanders for that matter is that there is a lot of rage but lack of policy or recognition of the difficulty of the problem at hand. you don't solve a deep structural economic problem with some tax rates. it's going to paint your movement in a bad light if you get a turn at the plate and strike out.

hillary isn't much better though. my biggest problem with her is that i don't see her as creative or empirically minded to avoid defaulting to political moves most likely.


anyway this is interesting

http://www.culturalcognition.net/blog/2016/1/24/weekend-update-omg-we-are-now-as-politically-polarized-over.html
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-06 05:00:49
February 06 2016 04:58 GMT
#57032
Apparently Bernie wasn't always so shy about hanging out with Wall Street-types in the past.

Manchester , New Hampshire (CNN)Bernie Sanders complained on the campaign trail Friday that dialing for dollars "affects your entire being."

What he didn't mention: The Vermont senator and presidential candidate is a prolific fundraiser himself and has regularly benefited from the Democratic Party apparatus.

In recent years, Sanders has been billed as one of the hosts for the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee's retreats for the "Majority Trust" -- an elite group of top donors who give more than $30,000 per year -- at Martha's Vineyard in the summer and Palm Beach, Florida, in the winter. CNN has obtained invitations that listed Sanders as a host for at least one Majority Trust event in each year since 2011.

The retreats are typically attended by 100 or more donors who have either contributed the annual legal maximum of $33,400 to the DSCC, raised more than $100,000 for the party or both.

Sanders has based his presidential campaign on a fire-and-brimstone critique of a broken campaign finance system -- and of Hillary Clinton for her reliance on big-dollar Wall Street donors. But Sanders is part of that system, and has helped Democrats court many of the same donors.

A Democratic lobbyist and donor who has attended the retreats told CNN that about 25% of the attendees there represent the financial sector -- and that Sanders and his wife, Jane, are always present.

"At each of the events all the senators speak. And I don't recall him ever giving a speech attacking us," the donor said. "While progressive, his remarks were always in the mainstream of what you hear from senators."

Sanders' political leanings were well known by the donors who attended the retreats. "Nobody was more surprised that Bernie was there than the donors were," said another Democrat who attended the retreats.


CNN

Separately:

List of Clintons' speeches
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Doublemint
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria8693 Posts
February 06 2016 07:00 GMT
#57033
well, it's still America lol.
what do people expect? if you want to sit with the big boys on the nice table, someone has got to pay for that table.

thing is, people expect a lapsus(?) like that from career politicians and won't mention it further.
if you want to start somewhat of a revolution though where you curb the influence of money, that story is very different. it's very funny that conservatives more than often get away with shit like that, because they are the party of "economic responsibility yadda yadda"... ^^ as if only democrats needed to have values and principles in this regard. "you were the chosen one for the ordinary people - WHY?!"

and @igne and the slavery reference " if people in those times were timid shit would not have been accomplished etc."

reality is not binary. both positions have merits, the realist and the idealist one.

politics is always (and always will be) the art of the possible. thinking about where black people were regarding their socio-economic standing after 1863, how it took another 100 years to reach the next level with MLK and the civil rights movement. in between soul grindingly slow change.
and how it still is anything but satisfactory in 2016 to be honest. reading GH's posts is more than enough testament to this fact. BLM is more than enough testament to it.

point is, while bernie is great and the ideal candidate in an ideal world, our world is not ideal. hillary with all her flaws, is imho the best chance to win the general and prevent the complete sell out level and idiocy of the unholy trivium that is trump/cruz/rubio.
that is not to say that she is not a sell out, at this level you are either a sell out. or you are not at all.

they are also on the same page on many issues, that's also the beauty of bernie's magic at play. hillary too felt the bern and had to go a little to the left. and will have to move even further when some of the polls are to be believed.





Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before the fall.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22056 Posts
February 06 2016 10:18 GMT
#57034
On February 06 2016 12:14 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 06 2016 11:38 IgnE wrote:
On February 06 2016 11:28 aksfjh wrote:
Hey guys, remember that huge socio-political movement, Occupy Wall St? Remember how it revolutionized the US government and put into power strong, populist politicians who were intent on punishing bankers and making sure growth was felt by all Americans and not just the elite? Oh wait, that was the Tea Party that got its people into Congress and various state governments, with their middle-aged and elderly voter turnout that you can set your clock to. But I'm sure 2016 will be different!


People seem to think that Occupy was a complete joke, but are blind to the ways it has worked in changing the conversation in America.

I definitely agree with that. I may have mistakenly insinuated that the Occupy movement didn't do anything, which isn't true. However, it pales in comparison, politically, to what the Tea Party accomplished. We don't hear about "Occupy Democrats" in government, but constantly hear about "Tea Party Republicans." That's the part I'm mocking, that somehow Bernie Sanders will bring out people that didn't come out of the last Democrat populist push.

Is that a bad thing tho?
The Tea Party is in the news because they are obstructing. They are kicking against the building and that is easy, just make a lot of noise and kick a few times. Its a lot harder to renovate the building.

If the Occupy movement went full Tea Party they would just be hurting the system and by extend the people, and certainly not the rich.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-06 12:01:50
February 06 2016 11:04 GMT
#57035
It honestly blows my mind that so many people are convinced that Sanders could win against someone like Marco Rubio. It's painfully obvious to me that he would get absolutely destroyed, and that the only reason he's currently polling well in head-to-head matches is that the Republican machine has left him virtually alone thus far, while relentlessly targeting Clinton (whom is seen by Republicans as their only real threat to the White House on the Democratic side). If he was a younger and more articulate man this could be a somewhat different story, but it would still be an uphill battle.
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
Doublemint
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria8693 Posts
February 06 2016 13:13 GMT
#57036
a lot of wishful thinking going on.
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before the fall.
Deathstar
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
9150 Posts
February 06 2016 14:01 GMT
#57037
What part is wishful thinking? I don't think you understand what you're talking about nor do you understand America if you think Bernie is full blown idealist right now.
rip passion
Doublemint
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria8693 Posts
February 06 2016 14:08 GMT
#57038
I understand it perfectly well, thank you very much

on some issues I get shit from conservatives, on others from liberals and libertarians. I think I am doing something right.
you are entitled to your opinion is all I am going to say.
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before the fall.
Deathstar
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
9150 Posts
February 06 2016 14:13 GMT
#57039
You made a post about idealist and realist so I thought you could be specific about it but guess not. You stop at "Bernie is an idealist and maybe he can win in an ideal world but not in the realist world." Ok!
rip passion
DanceSC
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States751 Posts
February 06 2016 14:35 GMT
#57040
People need to wake up.

"Eighty percent of the people who call themselves Democrats don't have a clue as to political reality. What amazes me is that you could take a group of people who are hard workers and convince them that they should support social programs that were the exact opposite of their own personal convictions. Put a little fear here and there and you can get people to vote any way you want.

The voter is basically dumb and lazy. The reason I became a Democratic operative instead of a Republican was because there were more Democrats that didn't have a clue than there were Republicans.

Truth is relative. Truth is what you can make the voter believe is the truth. If you're smart enough, truth is what you make the voter think it is. That's why I'm a Democrat. I can make the Democratic voters think whatever I want them to."

Dance.943 || "I think he's just going to lose. There's only so many ways you can lose. And he's going to make some kind of units. And I'm going to attack him, and then all his stuff is going to die. That's about the best prediction that I can make" - NonY
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