EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 2835
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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Soap
Brazil1546 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On February 03 2016 13:48 Mercy13 wrote: This is patently ridiculous. Do you think Obama made her Secretary of State because of who her husband is? She was named to that position for her political clout. As a bonus, it brought the two factions under one hood and allowed Obama a great two years of the trifecta legislative ownership. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23675 Posts
That was an epic fail and looked desperate by her campaign. | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On February 03 2016 14:04 GreenHorizons wrote: Well Obama put her in his cabinet to prevent her from being able to Primary him. At least that was the universal interpretation at the time. Surely without Bill she wouldn't have been Sen. From New York because there wouldn't be a Clinton foundation to funnel money through for Wall st. I agree that's standard politics and doesn't make her unusually corrupt but that's the whole point, this is our last shot at changing that system and Hillary isn't it. No question though she's the single best/most powerful person using standard politics. I think your being very naive in thinking that shocking the system the way Bernie is promising to do is going to work. It doesnt just turn around because a Democratic president says so. Whether he got super packed or not. Special interests are here to stay, they are not going anywhere, they will never go anywhere, what you can do is work enough to weaken their controlling abilities and then maybe we can move on to some place else. Maybe. I love Bernie and my biggest fear is him winning the nomination. And its rather defeatist to suggest that this your last shot at changing the system. I wonder how many times thats been said before. | ||
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bagels21
United States4357 Posts
On February 03 2016 14:13 Danglars wrote: She was named to that position for her political clout. As a bonus, it brought the two factions under one hood and allowed Obama a great two years of the trifecta legislative ownership. to be quite fair part of what you're saying is true but the other half is that Hillary was the most accomplished first lady of all time (she was quite literally the first first lady to have a postgraduate degree) that sacrificed her own career for Bill. Even after going to Arkansas she was a major corporate lawyer that outearned Bill and she was a policy wonk that spearheaded the original healthcare bill (it was called "Hillarycare" lol). From all accounts she's been a player in politics before Bill was even famous. (She was a major activist at Wellesley even when she was in college) On February 03 2016 13:44 IgnE wrote: How does her connecting to a small group of voters make her not a lying bitch? I think you're sort of missing the point though. Besides the Benghazi/email issue(which I personally think was spurred heavily by the GOP and media) where else can you really say she "lied". On 3 key issues (immigration, gay rights, and Iraq), her views have evolved/changed, but I'm not sure you can say she "lied". I think the point he poster you were responding to was trying to say is that the media and the GOP have literally been going at Hillary for 30 years. The Clintons have taken so much smear its frankly kind of ridiculous. HRC was literally flamed for staying with Bill post Lewinsky (because that was seen as her being manipulative and she wanted to ride her husbands coattails) and she was literally referred to as "Lady Macbeth" in 1991/1992 before Bill was even inaugurated. | ||
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ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
He is the only candidate that isn't completely bought out already, and therefore the best chance for any meaningful change in a completely fucked up election and political process. That amongst virtually every other point he runs his campaign on is why I am 200% in support of Bernie Sanders. It is my highest hope that he wins and as a country we tax the living shit out of wall street to pay for healthcare for all, cancer research, schools/hospitals for the poor low income neighborhoods, name your pick... | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23675 Posts
On February 03 2016 14:21 Rebs wrote: I think your being very naive in thinking that shocking the system the way Bernie is promising to do is going to work. It doesnt just turn around because a Democratic president says so. Whether he got super packed or not. Special interests are here to stay, they are not going anywhere, they will never go anywhere, what you can do is work enough to weaken their controlling abilities and then maybe we can move on to some place else. Maybe. I love Bernie and my biggest fear is him winning the nomination. And its rather defeatist to suggest that this your last shot at changing the system. I wonder how many times thats been said before. This is the fundamental misunderstanding of what Bernie is campaigning on. Every time he speaks he says that he won't be able to do it alone. People supporting Bernie aren't expecting him to fix everything in the face of an obstinate congress, we're going to give them a chance to act right or be replaced. It's on us to replace congress but Bernie will be right there fighting with us for real change not more establishment crap. Though, even if he didn't pass a single piece of legislation, I'd still prefer him to fill the SCOTUS seats. | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On February 03 2016 14:36 GreenHorizons wrote: This is the fundamental misunderstanding of what Bernie is campaigning on. Every time he speaks he says that he won't be able to do it alone. People supporting Bernie aren't expecting him to fix everything in the face of an obstinate congress, we're going to give them a chance to act right or be replaced. It's on us to replace congress but Bernie will be right there fighting with us for real change not more establishment crap. Though, even if he didn't pass a single piece of legislation, I'd still prefer him to fill the SCOTUS seats. Yeah I know he keeps saying it, it was practically the headline of his speech. "Let me tell you a secret ....". Doesnt matter. Its still naive. Maybe you have to fracture before you can fix, but its going to be painful. Glad I hopped to Canada before the shit really hits the fan. Also not fighting for "us" fighting for "you". This he "cares about me" shit is just as bad a reason for him receiving support as evangelical Christians. Stop ruining Bernie Sanders pleeezz... As for replacing a non functioning congress.. LOL... | ||
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ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
On February 03 2016 14:31 IgnE wrote: Trump is also "not bought out already". Is that really true? ? ? While Trump has a lot of money himself, I'm sure he isn't sinking his entire fortune on a presidential race and I'm not sure I trust the transparency from his campaign. Is he even claiming transparency about where is funding is coming from? Even if it is all coming out of his pockets, Trump isn't running on changing our political system or dismantling wall street. I imagine a massive amount of his money is tied up in wall street, therefore taxing it would be the same as taxing himself, which he isn't at all claiming he will do. His campaign platform is more, "Well the rest of them are idiots, do you want idiots running the country or me?" Also, lets ban an entire religious group (Muslims) of people from entering the country for the immediate to undisclosed future. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23675 Posts
On February 03 2016 14:38 Rebs wrote: Yeah I know he keeps saying it, it was practically the headline of his speech. "Let me tell you a secret ....". Doesnt matter. Its still naive. Maybe you have to fracture before you can fix, but its going to be painful. Glad I hopped to Canada before the shit really hits the fan. Also not fighting for "us" fighting for "you". This he "cares about me" shit is just as bad a reason for him receiving support as evangelical Christians. Stop ruining Bernie Sanders pleeezz... As for replacing a non functioning congress.. LOL... Huh? It's abundantly clear that Bernie isn't doing this for personal enrichment. As for replacing congress it isn't going to happen if we don't try, Hillary hasn't even suggested she would try, and they hate her more than they hate Bernie or even his "radical" ideas. Hillary would only be able to pass Republican legislation, if that. | ||
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bagels21
United States4357 Posts
On February 03 2016 14:47 GreenHorizons wrote: Huh? It's abundantly clear that Bernie isn't doing this for personal enrichment. As for replacing congress it isn't going to happen if we don't try, Hillary hasn't even suggested she would try, and they hate her more than they hate Bernie or even his "radical" ideas. Hillary would only be able to pass Republican legislation, if that. I'm not sure about the "hating her more than they hate bernie". They have merely not taken Bernie as a serious threat (though that's changing, as we can see with Rubio now calling Bernie out) and have used him as a way of getting to Hillary. The reason downballot/regional officials haven't supported/endorsed bernie is because they would likely get voted out of office if they were affiliated with socialism. It's been incredibly tough for Dems lately and in large parts of this country, cultural/social conservatism still reigns supreme, even in the "purple" states. | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
If the argument is, Bernie won't be able to get anything done, what is the argument for Hillary? What do you think she will get done? The things Hillary will want to get done does not necessitate a Democratic president (to an extent). Assuming the congress does less with Bernie than what it has done with Obama Bernie will at least have his executive powers to work with. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
The "won't get anything done argument" is complete garbage. It's something that idiots latch onto and repeat ad nauseam like they know what they are talking about. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23675 Posts
On February 03 2016 14:56 bagels21 wrote: I'm not sure about the "hating her more than they hate bernie". They have merely not taken Bernie as a serious threat (though that's changing, as we can see with Rubio now calling Bernie out) and have used him as a way of getting to Hillary. The reason downballot/regional officials haven't supported/endorsed bernie is because they would likely get voted out of office if they were affiliated with socialism. It's been incredibly tough for Dems lately and in large parts of this country, cultural/social conservatism still reigns supreme, even in the "purple" states. No, they actually don't hate him because he's congenial and honest. They disagree with practically everything he thinks but they respect him and will openly call him honest. The republican party DESPISES Hillary. It has nothing to do with their standings in the polls. As for the down ballot Democrats not endorsing, many are part of the establishment and have direct connections to Clinton, not to mention many of those are why Democratic majorities don't mean much, because they side with Republicans on the hard stuff. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
On February 03 2016 14:58 IgnE wrote: Rebs is barely coherent. There's no point in arguing with him. The "won't get anything done argument" is complete garbage. It's something that idiots latch onto and repeat ad nauseam like they know what they are talking about. It's like they get some personal satisfaction from that shit. Either way it doesn't make any damn sense. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On February 03 2016 14:23 bagels21 wrote: She's had her share of highlights. Her selection to the post wasn't in light of her college activism or noble sacrifices for Bill's political career. It was her bargaining position gained in the 2008 primaries and her political machine. It wasn't like Obama was going down the lawyer-activist shortlist and happened upon one with a failed Hillarycare initiative. to be quite fair part of what you're saying is true but the other half is that Hillary was the most accomplished first lady of all time (she was quite literally the first first lady to have a postgraduate degree) that sacrificed her own career for Bill. Even after going to Arkansas she was a major corporate lawyer that outearned Bill and she was a policy wonk that spearheaded the original healthcare bill (it was called "Hillarycare" lol). From all accounts she's been a player in politics before Bill was even famous. (She was a major activist at Wellesley even when she was in college) | ||
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On February 03 2016 13:33 ticklishmusic wrote: But she's not a lying bitch. The entire cold, awkward, calculating thing is like Jeb's low energy tag-- completely made up. I've heard story after story about how Hillary has been a pretty solid retail politician and has connected well with small (50-100) groups of voters. She doesn't look great in the huge rally/speech situations which are the ones that get really covered. And my impression is that a lot of Bernie supporters haven't taken a good look at her record or her platform. Krugman actually had a great piece about some of them buying into the entire rightwing smear campaign against her, hilariously a couple of the top links in r/politics and r/bernieforpresident are from The Blaze right now. Exactly. | ||
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