|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On August 09 2015 03:24 Eskendereya wrote:
Funny, when Donald Trump made that comment, I didn't get the idea he was referring to Megyn Kelly as having a period. Regardless, this is exactly what people are sick of, there are bigger issues in this country and this just goes back to people being too PC which is another thing people are sick of in this country.
No this statement is going to become the deciding issue of the 2016 general election and will make or break the Republicans because social media heroes have declared it as such.
|
On August 08 2015 17:43 zlefin wrote:
Introvert -> I can't make out what you're trying to say well. I'd probably need it spelled out in considerable detail to understand the point(s) you're trying to make.
Trump's appeal isn't his "racism" it IS the fact that he's not PC, which is why he keeps talking about it. Much of what he says is repulsive, but much of it is entertaining.
On August 09 2015 00:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2015 16:43 Introvert wrote:
I wonder what it's like to reject the obvious reason for a phenomenon for one of your own creation. One only the most partisan of hacks actually believe. More useless days of "analysis" from people who think they know their opposition but continually display their ignorance of those they disagree with.
This thread is a good example. Besides one poster, I can't think of a single person expressing a positive view of Trump on the whole. Yet, from what we read here, we are supposed to find the hidden sexism come into play. One must wonder. If the Racist Republicans have gone to so much trouble to hide their bigotry, why support a man supposedly so open about it? Would that not defeat and undermine everything they have worked to accomplish? Why not support one of the secret racists? Someone who talks like they do in public? But such a critical thought doesn't even get a passing consideration- the data must be viewed in such a way that it fits the already believed explanation. I'm not certain if I'm understanding your post properly, but I disagree with the premise that a lot of the conservative party has been even attempting to hide their bigotry. I think that a lot of it has been rather explicit! You look at Fox News with their War On Christians/ Whites/ The Rich/ other stereotypical "Check your privilege" contexts, and it's abundantly clear that they'll say and do anything to keep the status quo. Same with the South and the riots with taking down the Confederate Flag, or Texas and their rewriting of history books to remove the KKK and Jim Crowe laws, etc. Plenty of conservatives aren't bigots or jerks, but the #1 conservative media outlet- and much of the sensationalist news coverage- certainly makes it look like plenty of Republicans have no reservations about saying and doing things that are socially backwards.
People keep coming up with any explanation that fits. Before Trump all the hacks said "the GOP is full of racists, they just know they can't say anything racist." Then comes Trump, saying apparently racist things, and we are to believe that his appeal is bigotry and not any of the more likely explanations. Moreover none of those things above point to any sort of racism, it's only because you already believe that those people are racist that such things have a racist motive.
But my overall point is quite clear. Morever, this begs the obvious question: what happens if (when) Trump fizzles out? Will a large portion of the party have lost their racism. Will they have a come to Jesus moment? His eventual petering out with be the biggest proof that it's about spectacle. Since GH is apparently so prone to taking random right wing blog comments sections seriously (heaven forbid I do that with the left wing ones) he would see by and large people like him because he's "not a politician and doesn't speak like one."
And I understand what you are saying, but he doesn't have high Tea Party support and not one of my relatives or friends that I have talked to is a Trump supporter.
Some people here are taking these early polls way to seriously and extrapolating far too much. When their predictions fail, they will have some new explanation that inevitably doesn't invalidate any of their underlying beliefs, but instead blame some random outside factor.
|
On August 09 2015 03:31 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2015 17:43 zlefin wrote:
Introvert -> I can't make out what you're trying to say well. I'd probably need it spelled out in considerable detail to understand the point(s) you're trying to make. Trump's appeal isn't his "racism" it IS the fact that he's not PC, which is why he keeps talking about it. Much of what he says is repulsive, but much of it is entertaining. Show nested quote +On August 09 2015 00:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 08 2015 16:43 Introvert wrote:
I wonder what it's like to reject the obvious reason for a phenomenon for one of your own creation. One only the most partisan of hacks actually believe. More useless days of "analysis" from people who think they know their opposition but continually display their ignorance of those they disagree with.
This thread is a good example. Besides one poster, I can't think of a single person expressing a positive view of Trump on the whole. Yet, from what we read here, we are supposed to find the hidden sexism come into play. One must wonder. If the Racist Republicans have gone to so much trouble to hide their bigotry, why support a man supposedly so open about it? Would that not defeat and undermine everything they have worked to accomplish? Why not support one of the secret racists? Someone who talks like they do in public? But such a critical thought doesn't even get a passing consideration- the data must be viewed in such a way that it fits the already believed explanation. I'm not certain if I'm understanding your post properly, but I disagree with the premise that a lot of the conservative party has been even attempting to hide their bigotry. I think that a lot of it has been rather explicit! You look at Fox News with their War On Christians/ Whites/ The Rich/ other stereotypical "Check your privilege" contexts, and it's abundantly clear that they'll say and do anything to keep the status quo. Same with the South and the riots with taking down the Confederate Flag, or Texas and their rewriting of history books to remove the KKK and Jim Crowe laws, etc. Plenty of conservatives aren't bigots or jerks, but the #1 conservative media outlet- and much of the sensationalist news coverage- certainly makes it look like plenty of Republicans have no reservations about saying and doing things that are socially backwards. People keep coming up with any explanation that fits. Before Trump all the hacks said "the GOP is full of racists, they just know they can't say anything racist." Then comes Trump, saying apparently racist things, and we are to believe that his appeal is bigotry and not any of the more likely explanations. Moreover none of those things above point to any sort of racism, it's only because you already believe that those people are racist that such things have a racist motive. But my overall point is quite clear. Morever, this begs the obvious question: what happens if (when) Trump fizzles out? Will a large portion of the party have lost their racism. Will they have a come to Jesus moment? His eventual petering out with be the biggest proof that it's about spectacle. Since GH is apparently so prone to taking random right wing blog comments sections seriously (heaven forbid I do that with the left wing ones) he would see by and large people like him because he's "not a politician and doesn't speak like one." And I understand what you are saying, but he doesn't have high Tea Party support and not one of my relatives or friends that I have talked to is a Trump supporter.
What has Trump said that is racist? Quote me something he said that is racist.
|
On August 09 2015 03:34 Eskendereya wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2015 03:31 Introvert wrote:On August 08 2015 17:43 zlefin wrote:
Introvert -> I can't make out what you're trying to say well. I'd probably need it spelled out in considerable detail to understand the point(s) you're trying to make. Trump's appeal isn't his "racism" it IS the fact that he's not PC, which is why he keeps talking about it. Much of what he says is repulsive, but much of it is entertaining. On August 09 2015 00:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 08 2015 16:43 Introvert wrote:
I wonder what it's like to reject the obvious reason for a phenomenon for one of your own creation. One only the most partisan of hacks actually believe. More useless days of "analysis" from people who think they know their opposition but continually display their ignorance of those they disagree with.
This thread is a good example. Besides one poster, I can't think of a single person expressing a positive view of Trump on the whole. Yet, from what we read here, we are supposed to find the hidden sexism come into play. One must wonder. If the Racist Republicans have gone to so much trouble to hide their bigotry, why support a man supposedly so open about it? Would that not defeat and undermine everything they have worked to accomplish? Why not support one of the secret racists? Someone who talks like they do in public? But such a critical thought doesn't even get a passing consideration- the data must be viewed in such a way that it fits the already believed explanation. I'm not certain if I'm understanding your post properly, but I disagree with the premise that a lot of the conservative party has been even attempting to hide their bigotry. I think that a lot of it has been rather explicit! You look at Fox News with their War On Christians/ Whites/ The Rich/ other stereotypical "Check your privilege" contexts, and it's abundantly clear that they'll say and do anything to keep the status quo. Same with the South and the riots with taking down the Confederate Flag, or Texas and their rewriting of history books to remove the KKK and Jim Crowe laws, etc. Plenty of conservatives aren't bigots or jerks, but the #1 conservative media outlet- and much of the sensationalist news coverage- certainly makes it look like plenty of Republicans have no reservations about saying and doing things that are socially backwards. People keep coming up with any explanation that fits. Before Trump all the hacks said "the GOP is full of racists, they just know they can't say anything racist." Then comes Trump, saying apparently racist things, and we are to believe that his appeal is bigotry and not any of the more likely explanations. Moreover none of those things above point to any sort of racism, it's only because you already believe that those people are racist that such things have a racist motive. But my overall point is quite clear. Morever, this begs the obvious question: what happens if (when) Trump fizzles out? Will a large portion of the party have lost their racism. Will they have a come to Jesus moment? His eventual petering out with be the biggest proof that it's about spectacle. Since GH is apparently so prone to taking random right wing blog comments sections seriously (heaven forbid I do that with the left wing ones) he would see by and large people like him because he's "not a politician and doesn't speak like one." And I understand what you are saying, but he doesn't have high Tea Party support and not one of my relatives or friends that I have talked to is a Trump supporter. What has Trump said that is racist? Quote me something he said that is racist.
I use words like "apparently" intentionally. My point is not to debate the exact words he speaks (many of which are repulsive) but to address the other point. They say he's appealing to the underlying sexism and racism supposedly rampant in the GOP and anyone who disagrees with left-wing policies. You'd think that after the War on Women's abject failure as a political strategy recently that they would have dropped it. But they haven't.
|
On August 09 2015 03:31 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2015 00:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 08 2015 16:43 Introvert wrote:
I wonder what it's like to reject the obvious reason for a phenomenon for one of your own creation. One only the most partisan of hacks actually believe. More useless days of "analysis" from people who think they know their opposition but continually display their ignorance of those they disagree with.
This thread is a good example. Besides one poster, I can't think of a single person expressing a positive view of Trump on the whole. Yet, from what we read here, we are supposed to find the hidden sexism come into play. One must wonder. If the Racist Republicans have gone to so much trouble to hide their bigotry, why support a man supposedly so open about it? Would that not defeat and undermine everything they have worked to accomplish? Why not support one of the secret racists? Someone who talks like they do in public? But such a critical thought doesn't even get a passing consideration- the data must be viewed in such a way that it fits the already believed explanation. I'm not certain if I'm understanding your post properly, but I disagree with the premise that a lot of the conservative party has been even attempting to hide their bigotry. I think that a lot of it has been rather explicit! You look at Fox News with their War On Christians/ Whites/ The Rich/ other stereotypical "Check your privilege" contexts, and it's abundantly clear that they'll say and do anything to keep the status quo. Same with the South and the riots with taking down the Confederate Flag, or Texas and their rewriting of history books to remove the KKK and Jim Crowe laws, etc. Plenty of conservatives aren't bigots or jerks, but the #1 conservative media outlet- and much of the sensationalist news coverage- certainly makes it look like plenty of Republicans have no reservations about saying and doing things that are socially backwards. People keep coming up with any explanation that fits. Before Trump all the hacks said "the GOP is full of racists, they just know they can't say anything racist." Then comes Trump, saying apparently racist things, and we are to believe that his appeal is bigotry and not any of the more likely explanations. Moreover none of those things above point to any sort of racism, it's only because you already believe that those people are racist that such things have a racist motive. But my overall point is quite clear. Morever, this begs the obvious question: what happens if (when) Trump fizzles out? Will a large portion of the party have lost their racism. Will they have a come to Jesus moment? His eventual petering out with be the biggest proof that it's about spectacle. Since GH is apparently so prone to taking random right wing blog comments sections seriously (heaven forbid I do that with the left wing ones) he would see by and large people like him because he's "not a politician and doesn't speak like one." And I understand what you are saying, but he doesn't have high Tea Party support and not one of my relatives or friends that I have talked to is a Trump supporter.
I'm calling him racist because he acts and speaks like a racist. I never called him racist before that- nor did I even think he was, so I had no prejudicial notions that he was *probably* racist, and now I'm finally fitting this comment into my already predetermined opinion of him, or anything like that.
I don't think that his (possibly eventual) fizzling out will really make any huge changes in terms of conservative prejudice. I think people will eventually just vote for a more timid and diplomatic Jeb Bush, and then it'll just be an interesting story about how Trump once ran, just like how people say "Hey remember Palin? Yeahhh..."
Is the Tea Party particularly relevant anymore? Trump is kicking everyone else's ass in Republican primary polls for now, until the bubble bursts, and so I think he's currently a serious contender for the nomination. It used to be Jeb's race to lose; now, I think it's Trump's.
|
On August 09 2015 03:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2015 03:31 Introvert wrote:On August 09 2015 00:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 08 2015 16:43 Introvert wrote:
I wonder what it's like to reject the obvious reason for a phenomenon for one of your own creation. One only the most partisan of hacks actually believe. More useless days of "analysis" from people who think they know their opposition but continually display their ignorance of those they disagree with.
This thread is a good example. Besides one poster, I can't think of a single person expressing a positive view of Trump on the whole. Yet, from what we read here, we are supposed to find the hidden sexism come into play. One must wonder. If the Racist Republicans have gone to so much trouble to hide their bigotry, why support a man supposedly so open about it? Would that not defeat and undermine everything they have worked to accomplish? Why not support one of the secret racists? Someone who talks like they do in public? But such a critical thought doesn't even get a passing consideration- the data must be viewed in such a way that it fits the already believed explanation. I'm not certain if I'm understanding your post properly, but I disagree with the premise that a lot of the conservative party has been even attempting to hide their bigotry. I think that a lot of it has been rather explicit! You look at Fox News with their War On Christians/ Whites/ The Rich/ other stereotypical "Check your privilege" contexts, and it's abundantly clear that they'll say and do anything to keep the status quo. Same with the South and the riots with taking down the Confederate Flag, or Texas and their rewriting of history books to remove the KKK and Jim Crowe laws, etc. Plenty of conservatives aren't bigots or jerks, but the #1 conservative media outlet- and much of the sensationalist news coverage- certainly makes it look like plenty of Republicans have no reservations about saying and doing things that are socially backwards. People keep coming up with any explanation that fits. Before Trump all the hacks said "the GOP is full of racists, they just know they can't say anything racist." Then comes Trump, saying apparently racist things, and we are to believe that his appeal is bigotry and not any of the more likely explanations. Moreover none of those things above point to any sort of racism, it's only because you already believe that those people are racist that such things have a racist motive. But my overall point is quite clear. Morever, this begs the obvious question: what happens if (when) Trump fizzles out? Will a large portion of the party have lost their racism. Will they have a come to Jesus moment? His eventual petering out with be the biggest proof that it's about spectacle. Since GH is apparently so prone to taking random right wing blog comments sections seriously (heaven forbid I do that with the left wing ones) he would see by and large people like him because he's "not a politician and doesn't speak like one." And I understand what you are saying, but he doesn't have high Tea Party support and not one of my relatives or friends that I have talked to is a Trump supporter. I'm calling him racist because he acts and speaks like a racist. I never called him racist before that- nor did I even think he was, so I had no prejudicial notions that he was *probably* racist, and now I'm finally fitting this comment into my already predetermined opinion of him, or anything like that. I don't think that his (possibly eventual) fizzling out will really make any huge changes in terms of conservative prejudice. I think people will eventually just vote for a more timid and diplomatic Jeb Bush, and then it'll just be an interesting story about how Trump once ran, just like how people say "Hey remember Palin? Yeahhh..." Is the Tea Party particularly relevant anymore? Trump is kicking everyone else's ass in Republican primary polls for now, until the bubble bursts, and so I think he's currently a serious contender for the nomination. It used to be Jeb's race to lose; now, I think it's Trump's.
I don't much care to debate his exact words- I don't care for him or for what he says. But I think your understanding of people on the right is (like so many others) simply too limited. Trump could emerge the front funner, but saying it's his race to lose is simply wrong, if history is anything to go by. These polls, for instance, mean very little. The fact that you and GH pour so much into them could come back to bite you. Now it may not, but history says it's a dangerous game. Therefore, so is using them to prove some sort of point about your political opposition.
|
On August 08 2015 19:38 Simberto wrote:
Also, regarding the "people are too PC" thing.
It is a very good political statement because everyone can read what they want into it. There are no qualifiers, and of course for everyone there is a level of political correctness that is too much.
However, most of the time, it just implies that people are actually assholes and want to be assholes, they just have this thin layer of political correctness imposed upon them by the PC police to stop them from spouting racist and sexists remarks at every corner. I think this is weird. I have never felt the need to not say something i want to say because of political correctness. Being politically correct should hopefully not be something you do because society imposes it upon you, but something you do out of intrinsic motivations. I have never felt this need to be an asshole in private that appears to dominate some peoples lives so much that they are sad they can't be an asshole in public, too.
And of course this is not about imposing a thought police onto people. People should be able to legally say whatever dickish thing they want to say. But society really shouldn't be as accepting of a racist sexist asshole as the republican voter base appears to be. If someone like trump manages to be a forerunner in the republican candidate election, that says a lot about that electorate. Mostly that apparently a large portion of them are assholes.
Also, i love how Danglars tries to turn the whole thing upside down by calling everyone who does not agree with sexism and racism "Victorian puritans".
"Most of the time, it just implies" is just rich, simply rich. You've learned to tune out the voices of PC enforcement, or ignore them and opt for your own reinterpretation of their aims and ubiquity.
Modern left-wing tactics is a retreat to 19th century puritanical worldviews. It is, once again, ascribing sexism racism homophobia transphobia to every comment and every tidbit that surfaces in public dialogue. It is silencing discussion of one side over pay disparity, race relations, social legislation, constitutional discussion, and others. Simberto, if people that think like you had a grounding in common sense and would reserve Racist and Sexist calls for the miscreants of society, you'd have my support and it would be nothing like today's moralizing busybodies.
As you said, the phrase is great because you can read what you want into it, and you choose to imply the described phenomenon is tame rejection of over-the-top assholes. That it's thin. That everybody is crying about the PC police are being unreasonable. You can't see it for what it is, and have turned a blind eye to its silencing of debate on everything from abortion to law and order. "Calling everyone who does not agree with sexism and racism" is the reframe of a left-wing hack. You just agree with people that label things racism and sexism in order to avoid debating substance.
Does it get any more partisan than saying your opponents agree with sexism and racism and your doelike friends simply aren't sexists and racist like them?
|
Heading to Seattle for the Bernie Sanders Rally. Should be another 10k+er
Hope some of you catch it online.
|
On August 09 2015 03:38 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2015 03:34 Eskendereya wrote:On August 09 2015 03:31 Introvert wrote:On August 08 2015 17:43 zlefin wrote:
Introvert -> I can't make out what you're trying to say well. I'd probably need it spelled out in considerable detail to understand the point(s) you're trying to make. Trump's appeal isn't his "racism" it IS the fact that he's not PC, which is why he keeps talking about it. Much of what he says is repulsive, but much of it is entertaining. On August 09 2015 00:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 08 2015 16:43 Introvert wrote:
I wonder what it's like to reject the obvious reason for a phenomenon for one of your own creation. One only the most partisan of hacks actually believe. More useless days of "analysis" from people who think they know their opposition but continually display their ignorance of those they disagree with.
This thread is a good example. Besides one poster, I can't think of a single person expressing a positive view of Trump on the whole. Yet, from what we read here, we are supposed to find the hidden sexism come into play. One must wonder. If the Racist Republicans have gone to so much trouble to hide their bigotry, why support a man supposedly so open about it? Would that not defeat and undermine everything they have worked to accomplish? Why not support one of the secret racists? Someone who talks like they do in public? But such a critical thought doesn't even get a passing consideration- the data must be viewed in such a way that it fits the already believed explanation. I'm not certain if I'm understanding your post properly, but I disagree with the premise that a lot of the conservative party has been even attempting to hide their bigotry. I think that a lot of it has been rather explicit! You look at Fox News with their War On Christians/ Whites/ The Rich/ other stereotypical "Check your privilege" contexts, and it's abundantly clear that they'll say and do anything to keep the status quo. Same with the South and the riots with taking down the Confederate Flag, or Texas and their rewriting of history books to remove the KKK and Jim Crowe laws, etc. Plenty of conservatives aren't bigots or jerks, but the #1 conservative media outlet- and much of the sensationalist news coverage- certainly makes it look like plenty of Republicans have no reservations about saying and doing things that are socially backwards. People keep coming up with any explanation that fits. Before Trump all the hacks said "the GOP is full of racists, they just know they can't say anything racist." Then comes Trump, saying apparently racist things, and we are to believe that his appeal is bigotry and not any of the more likely explanations. Moreover none of those things above point to any sort of racism, it's only because you already believe that those people are racist that such things have a racist motive. But my overall point is quite clear. Morever, this begs the obvious question: what happens if (when) Trump fizzles out? Will a large portion of the party have lost their racism. Will they have a come to Jesus moment? His eventual petering out with be the biggest proof that it's about spectacle. Since GH is apparently so prone to taking random right wing blog comments sections seriously (heaven forbid I do that with the left wing ones) he would see by and large people like him because he's "not a politician and doesn't speak like one." And I understand what you are saying, but he doesn't have high Tea Party support and not one of my relatives or friends that I have talked to is a Trump supporter. What has Trump said that is racist? Quote me something he said that is racist. I use words like "apparently" intentionally. My point is not to debate the exact words he speaks (many of which are repulsive) but to address the other point. They say he's appealing to the underlying sexism and racism supposedly rampant in the GOP and anyone who disagrees with left-wing policies. You'd think that after the War on Women's abject failure as a political strategy recently that they would have dropped it. But they haven't.
People like him because he's actually going to secure the US border which has been a big problem for a long time and they believe he'll bring back a lot of offshore jobs to the US, another thing this country needs. They believe he'll be able to get the economy going again and tackle the enormous debt issue the US has. Perhaps there are some racists that will vote for Trump for whatever reasons like there were for Obama (because he was black) but I'd say they are in the minority. Also, to imply Trump's supporters as being racists and sexists is in itself a form of discrimination and isn't true, at least based on what I have seen.
|
On August 09 2015 03:43 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2015 03:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 09 2015 03:31 Introvert wrote:On August 09 2015 00:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 08 2015 16:43 Introvert wrote:
I wonder what it's like to reject the obvious reason for a phenomenon for one of your own creation. One only the most partisan of hacks actually believe. More useless days of "analysis" from people who think they know their opposition but continually display their ignorance of those they disagree with.
This thread is a good example. Besides one poster, I can't think of a single person expressing a positive view of Trump on the whole. Yet, from what we read here, we are supposed to find the hidden sexism come into play. One must wonder. If the Racist Republicans have gone to so much trouble to hide their bigotry, why support a man supposedly so open about it? Would that not defeat and undermine everything they have worked to accomplish? Why not support one of the secret racists? Someone who talks like they do in public? But such a critical thought doesn't even get a passing consideration- the data must be viewed in such a way that it fits the already believed explanation. I'm not certain if I'm understanding your post properly, but I disagree with the premise that a lot of the conservative party has been even attempting to hide their bigotry. I think that a lot of it has been rather explicit! You look at Fox News with their War On Christians/ Whites/ The Rich/ other stereotypical "Check your privilege" contexts, and it's abundantly clear that they'll say and do anything to keep the status quo. Same with the South and the riots with taking down the Confederate Flag, or Texas and their rewriting of history books to remove the KKK and Jim Crowe laws, etc. Plenty of conservatives aren't bigots or jerks, but the #1 conservative media outlet- and much of the sensationalist news coverage- certainly makes it look like plenty of Republicans have no reservations about saying and doing things that are socially backwards. People keep coming up with any explanation that fits. Before Trump all the hacks said "the GOP is full of racists, they just know they can't say anything racist." Then comes Trump, saying apparently racist things, and we are to believe that his appeal is bigotry and not any of the more likely explanations. Moreover none of those things above point to any sort of racism, it's only because you already believe that those people are racist that such things have a racist motive. But my overall point is quite clear. Morever, this begs the obvious question: what happens if (when) Trump fizzles out? Will a large portion of the party have lost their racism. Will they have a come to Jesus moment? His eventual petering out with be the biggest proof that it's about spectacle. Since GH is apparently so prone to taking random right wing blog comments sections seriously (heaven forbid I do that with the left wing ones) he would see by and large people like him because he's "not a politician and doesn't speak like one." And I understand what you are saying, but he doesn't have high Tea Party support and not one of my relatives or friends that I have talked to is a Trump supporter. I'm calling him racist because he acts and speaks like a racist. I never called him racist before that- nor did I even think he was, so I had no prejudicial notions that he was *probably* racist, and now I'm finally fitting this comment into my already predetermined opinion of him, or anything like that. I don't think that his (possibly eventual) fizzling out will really make any huge changes in terms of conservative prejudice. I think people will eventually just vote for a more timid and diplomatic Jeb Bush, and then it'll just be an interesting story about how Trump once ran, just like how people say "Hey remember Palin? Yeahhh..." Is the Tea Party particularly relevant anymore? Trump is kicking everyone else's ass in Republican primary polls for now, until the bubble bursts, and so I think he's currently a serious contender for the nomination. It used to be Jeb's race to lose; now, I think it's Trump's. I don't much care to debate his exact words- I don't care for him or for what he says. But I think your understanding of people on the right is (like so many others) simply too limited. Trump could emerge the front funner, but saying it's his race to lose is simply wrong, if history is anything to go by. These polls, for instance, mean very little. The fact that you and GH pour so much into them could come back to bite you. Now it may not, but history says it's a dangerous game. Therefore, so is using them to prove some sort of point about your political opposition.
I don't understand what you mean by "come back to bite you" or warning that it's "a dangerous game". All I'm saying is that you can't completely write him off, especially since the media and news aren't ignoring him. Trump doesn't just magically disappear from anything. I think it'd be much smarter to take him as seriously as any other candidate, weigh his pros and cons, and decide if he's worth voting for (either in the primary or the general election).
The polls will certainly change in the upcoming year, but keep in mind that even these early polls dictated who was allowed into the "real" Republican debate and who was stuck on the JV happy hour team, so they're still going to set the pace until some candidates find a way to step up or fizzle out.
|
On August 09 2015 03:48 Eskendereya wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2015 03:38 Introvert wrote:On August 09 2015 03:34 Eskendereya wrote:On August 09 2015 03:31 Introvert wrote:On August 08 2015 17:43 zlefin wrote:
Introvert -> I can't make out what you're trying to say well. I'd probably need it spelled out in considerable detail to understand the point(s) you're trying to make. Trump's appeal isn't his "racism" it IS the fact that he's not PC, which is why he keeps talking about it. Much of what he says is repulsive, but much of it is entertaining. On August 09 2015 00:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 08 2015 16:43 Introvert wrote:
I wonder what it's like to reject the obvious reason for a phenomenon for one of your own creation. One only the most partisan of hacks actually believe. More useless days of "analysis" from people who think they know their opposition but continually display their ignorance of those they disagree with.
This thread is a good example. Besides one poster, I can't think of a single person expressing a positive view of Trump on the whole. Yet, from what we read here, we are supposed to find the hidden sexism come into play. One must wonder. If the Racist Republicans have gone to so much trouble to hide their bigotry, why support a man supposedly so open about it? Would that not defeat and undermine everything they have worked to accomplish? Why not support one of the secret racists? Someone who talks like they do in public? But such a critical thought doesn't even get a passing consideration- the data must be viewed in such a way that it fits the already believed explanation. I'm not certain if I'm understanding your post properly, but I disagree with the premise that a lot of the conservative party has been even attempting to hide their bigotry. I think that a lot of it has been rather explicit! You look at Fox News with their War On Christians/ Whites/ The Rich/ other stereotypical "Check your privilege" contexts, and it's abundantly clear that they'll say and do anything to keep the status quo. Same with the South and the riots with taking down the Confederate Flag, or Texas and their rewriting of history books to remove the KKK and Jim Crowe laws, etc. Plenty of conservatives aren't bigots or jerks, but the #1 conservative media outlet- and much of the sensationalist news coverage- certainly makes it look like plenty of Republicans have no reservations about saying and doing things that are socially backwards. People keep coming up with any explanation that fits. Before Trump all the hacks said "the GOP is full of racists, they just know they can't say anything racist." Then comes Trump, saying apparently racist things, and we are to believe that his appeal is bigotry and not any of the more likely explanations. Moreover none of those things above point to any sort of racism, it's only because you already believe that those people are racist that such things have a racist motive. But my overall point is quite clear. Morever, this begs the obvious question: what happens if (when) Trump fizzles out? Will a large portion of the party have lost their racism. Will they have a come to Jesus moment? His eventual petering out with be the biggest proof that it's about spectacle. Since GH is apparently so prone to taking random right wing blog comments sections seriously (heaven forbid I do that with the left wing ones) he would see by and large people like him because he's "not a politician and doesn't speak like one." And I understand what you are saying, but he doesn't have high Tea Party support and not one of my relatives or friends that I have talked to is a Trump supporter. What has Trump said that is racist? Quote me something he said that is racist. I use words like "apparently" intentionally. My point is not to debate the exact words he speaks (many of which are repulsive) but to address the other point. They say he's appealing to the underlying sexism and racism supposedly rampant in the GOP and anyone who disagrees with left-wing policies. You'd think that after the War on Women's abject failure as a political strategy recently that they would have dropped it. But they haven't. People like him because he's actually going to secure the US border
If anything, it's becoming more and more abundantly clear that he is NOT going to be able to secure the US border, because he has no idea what the fuck he's talking about with Mexico and some bullshit wall that he wants to strongarm Mexicans into building and paying for.
Even other conservatives like Rubio were pointing out that Trump's understanding of immigration is extremely limited.
On August 09 2015 03:47 GreenHorizons wrote:
Heading to Seattle for the Bernie Sanders Rally. Should be another 10k+er
Hope some of you catch it online.
Enjoy 
|
On August 09 2015 03:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2015 03:31 Introvert wrote:On August 09 2015 00:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 08 2015 16:43 Introvert wrote:
I wonder what it's like to reject the obvious reason for a phenomenon for one of your own creation. One only the most partisan of hacks actually believe. More useless days of "analysis" from people who think they know their opposition but continually display their ignorance of those they disagree with.
This thread is a good example. Besides one poster, I can't think of a single person expressing a positive view of Trump on the whole. Yet, from what we read here, we are supposed to find the hidden sexism come into play. One must wonder. If the Racist Republicans have gone to so much trouble to hide their bigotry, why support a man supposedly so open about it? Would that not defeat and undermine everything they have worked to accomplish? Why not support one of the secret racists? Someone who talks like they do in public? But such a critical thought doesn't even get a passing consideration- the data must be viewed in such a way that it fits the already believed explanation. I'm not certain if I'm understanding your post properly, but I disagree with the premise that a lot of the conservative party has been even attempting to hide their bigotry. I think that a lot of it has been rather explicit! You look at Fox News with their War On Christians/ Whites/ The Rich/ other stereotypical "Check your privilege" contexts, and it's abundantly clear that they'll say and do anything to keep the status quo. Same with the South and the riots with taking down the Confederate Flag, or Texas and their rewriting of history books to remove the KKK and Jim Crowe laws, etc. Plenty of conservatives aren't bigots or jerks, but the #1 conservative media outlet- and much of the sensationalist news coverage- certainly makes it look like plenty of Republicans have no reservations about saying and doing things that are socially backwards. People keep coming up with any explanation that fits. Before Trump all the hacks said "the GOP is full of racists, they just know they can't say anything racist." Then comes Trump, saying apparently racist things, and we are to believe that his appeal is bigotry and not any of the more likely explanations. Moreover none of those things above point to any sort of racism, it's only because you already believe that those people are racist that such things have a racist motive. But my overall point is quite clear. Morever, this begs the obvious question: what happens if (when) Trump fizzles out? Will a large portion of the party have lost their racism. Will they have a come to Jesus moment? His eventual petering out with be the biggest proof that it's about spectacle. Since GH is apparently so prone to taking random right wing blog comments sections seriously (heaven forbid I do that with the left wing ones) he would see by and large people like him because he's "not a politician and doesn't speak like one." And I understand what you are saying, but he doesn't have high Tea Party support and not one of my relatives or friends that I have talked to is a Trump supporter. I'm calling him racist because he acts and speaks like a racist. I never called him racist before that- nor did I even think he was, so I had no prejudicial notions that he was *probably* racist, and now I'm finally fitting this comment into my already predetermined opinion of him, or anything like that. I don't think that his (possibly eventual) fizzling out will really make any huge changes in terms of conservative prejudice. I think people will eventually just vote for a more timid and diplomatic Jeb Bush, and then it'll just be an interesting story about how Trump once ran, just like how people say "Hey remember Palin? Yeahhh..." Is the Tea Party particularly relevant anymore? Trump is kicking everyone else's ass in Republican primary polls for now, until the bubble bursts, and so I think he's currently a serious contender for the nomination. It used to be Jeb's race to lose; now, I think it's Trump's.
"I'm calling him racist because he acts and speaks like a racist". How so? Are you saying he's racist for wanting to stop illegal immigration and secure the border? Almost %70 of the country want the border secured, I guess they are all racists too? It's that sort of thinking that is screwing Europe over right now, at the rate illegal immigration is going on in Europe, most of Europe's original inhabitants are going to be minorities in their own countries within a few generations, like in the UK for example.
|
On August 09 2015 03:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2015 03:48 Eskendereya wrote:On August 09 2015 03:38 Introvert wrote:On August 09 2015 03:34 Eskendereya wrote:On August 09 2015 03:31 Introvert wrote:On August 08 2015 17:43 zlefin wrote:
Introvert -> I can't make out what you're trying to say well. I'd probably need it spelled out in considerable detail to understand the point(s) you're trying to make. Trump's appeal isn't his "racism" it IS the fact that he's not PC, which is why he keeps talking about it. Much of what he says is repulsive, but much of it is entertaining. On August 09 2015 00:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 08 2015 16:43 Introvert wrote:
I wonder what it's like to reject the obvious reason for a phenomenon for one of your own creation. One only the most partisan of hacks actually believe. More useless days of "analysis" from people who think they know their opposition but continually display their ignorance of those they disagree with.
This thread is a good example. Besides one poster, I can't think of a single person expressing a positive view of Trump on the whole. Yet, from what we read here, we are supposed to find the hidden sexism come into play. One must wonder. If the Racist Republicans have gone to so much trouble to hide their bigotry, why support a man supposedly so open about it? Would that not defeat and undermine everything they have worked to accomplish? Why not support one of the secret racists? Someone who talks like they do in public? But such a critical thought doesn't even get a passing consideration- the data must be viewed in such a way that it fits the already believed explanation. I'm not certain if I'm understanding your post properly, but I disagree with the premise that a lot of the conservative party has been even attempting to hide their bigotry. I think that a lot of it has been rather explicit! You look at Fox News with their War On Christians/ Whites/ The Rich/ other stereotypical "Check your privilege" contexts, and it's abundantly clear that they'll say and do anything to keep the status quo. Same with the South and the riots with taking down the Confederate Flag, or Texas and their rewriting of history books to remove the KKK and Jim Crowe laws, etc. Plenty of conservatives aren't bigots or jerks, but the #1 conservative media outlet- and much of the sensationalist news coverage- certainly makes it look like plenty of Republicans have no reservations about saying and doing things that are socially backwards. People keep coming up with any explanation that fits. Before Trump all the hacks said "the GOP is full of racists, they just know they can't say anything racist." Then comes Trump, saying apparently racist things, and we are to believe that his appeal is bigotry and not any of the more likely explanations. Moreover none of those things above point to any sort of racism, it's only because you already believe that those people are racist that such things have a racist motive. But my overall point is quite clear. Morever, this begs the obvious question: what happens if (when) Trump fizzles out? Will a large portion of the party have lost their racism. Will they have a come to Jesus moment? His eventual petering out with be the biggest proof that it's about spectacle. Since GH is apparently so prone to taking random right wing blog comments sections seriously (heaven forbid I do that with the left wing ones) he would see by and large people like him because he's "not a politician and doesn't speak like one." And I understand what you are saying, but he doesn't have high Tea Party support and not one of my relatives or friends that I have talked to is a Trump supporter. What has Trump said that is racist? Quote me something he said that is racist. I use words like "apparently" intentionally. My point is not to debate the exact words he speaks (many of which are repulsive) but to address the other point. They say he's appealing to the underlying sexism and racism supposedly rampant in the GOP and anyone who disagrees with left-wing policies. You'd think that after the War on Women's abject failure as a political strategy recently that they would have dropped it. But they haven't. People like him because he's actually going to secure the US border If anything, it's becoming more and more abundantly clear that he is NOT going to be able to secure the US border, because he has no idea what the fuck he's talking about with Mexico and some bullshit wall that he wants to strongarm Mexicans into building and paying for. Even other conservatives like Rubio were pointing out that Trump's understanding of immigration is extremely limited. Show nested quote +On August 09 2015 03:47 GreenHorizons wrote:
Heading to Seattle for the Bernie Sanders Rally. Should be another 10k+er
Hope some of you catch it online. Enjoy
Even if he couldn't get Mexico to build it, you think he wouldn't do it himself? The border would get secured whether Mexico pays for it or the US pays for it. A big majority of Americans want it secured.
|
On August 09 2015 03:54 Eskendereya wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2015 03:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 09 2015 03:31 Introvert wrote:On August 09 2015 00:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 08 2015 16:43 Introvert wrote:
I wonder what it's like to reject the obvious reason for a phenomenon for one of your own creation. One only the most partisan of hacks actually believe. More useless days of "analysis" from people who think they know their opposition but continually display their ignorance of those they disagree with.
This thread is a good example. Besides one poster, I can't think of a single person expressing a positive view of Trump on the whole. Yet, from what we read here, we are supposed to find the hidden sexism come into play. One must wonder. If the Racist Republicans have gone to so much trouble to hide their bigotry, why support a man supposedly so open about it? Would that not defeat and undermine everything they have worked to accomplish? Why not support one of the secret racists? Someone who talks like they do in public? But such a critical thought doesn't even get a passing consideration- the data must be viewed in such a way that it fits the already believed explanation. I'm not certain if I'm understanding your post properly, but I disagree with the premise that a lot of the conservative party has been even attempting to hide their bigotry. I think that a lot of it has been rather explicit! You look at Fox News with their War On Christians/ Whites/ The Rich/ other stereotypical "Check your privilege" contexts, and it's abundantly clear that they'll say and do anything to keep the status quo. Same with the South and the riots with taking down the Confederate Flag, or Texas and their rewriting of history books to remove the KKK and Jim Crowe laws, etc. Plenty of conservatives aren't bigots or jerks, but the #1 conservative media outlet- and much of the sensationalist news coverage- certainly makes it look like plenty of Republicans have no reservations about saying and doing things that are socially backwards. People keep coming up with any explanation that fits. Before Trump all the hacks said "the GOP is full of racists, they just know they can't say anything racist." Then comes Trump, saying apparently racist things, and we are to believe that his appeal is bigotry and not any of the more likely explanations. Moreover none of those things above point to any sort of racism, it's only because you already believe that those people are racist that such things have a racist motive. But my overall point is quite clear. Morever, this begs the obvious question: what happens if (when) Trump fizzles out? Will a large portion of the party have lost their racism. Will they have a come to Jesus moment? His eventual petering out with be the biggest proof that it's about spectacle. Since GH is apparently so prone to taking random right wing blog comments sections seriously (heaven forbid I do that with the left wing ones) he would see by and large people like him because he's "not a politician and doesn't speak like one." And I understand what you are saying, but he doesn't have high Tea Party support and not one of my relatives or friends that I have talked to is a Trump supporter. I'm calling him racist because he acts and speaks like a racist. I never called him racist before that- nor did I even think he was, so I had no prejudicial notions that he was *probably* racist, and now I'm finally fitting this comment into my already predetermined opinion of him, or anything like that. I don't think that his (possibly eventual) fizzling out will really make any huge changes in terms of conservative prejudice. I think people will eventually just vote for a more timid and diplomatic Jeb Bush, and then it'll just be an interesting story about how Trump once ran, just like how people say "Hey remember Palin? Yeahhh..." Is the Tea Party particularly relevant anymore? Trump is kicking everyone else's ass in Republican primary polls for now, until the bubble bursts, and so I think he's currently a serious contender for the nomination. It used to be Jeb's race to lose; now, I think it's Trump's. "I'm calling him racist because he acts and speaks like a racist". How so? Are you saying he's racist for wanting to stop illegal immigration and secure the border? Almost %70 of the country want the border secured, I guess they are all racists too? It's that sort of thinking that is screwing Europe over right now, at the rate illegal immigration is going on in Europe, most of Europe's original inhabitants are going to be minorities in their own countries within a few generations, like in the UK for example.
...what? You haven't listened to his speeches at all, have you? It has nothing to do with him wanting to secure the border lol. At least Google it 
On August 09 2015 03:55 Eskendereya wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2015 03:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 09 2015 03:48 Eskendereya wrote:On August 09 2015 03:38 Introvert wrote:On August 09 2015 03:34 Eskendereya wrote:On August 09 2015 03:31 Introvert wrote:On August 08 2015 17:43 zlefin wrote:
Introvert -> I can't make out what you're trying to say well. I'd probably need it spelled out in considerable detail to understand the point(s) you're trying to make. Trump's appeal isn't his "racism" it IS the fact that he's not PC, which is why he keeps talking about it. Much of what he says is repulsive, but much of it is entertaining. On August 09 2015 00:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 08 2015 16:43 Introvert wrote:
I wonder what it's like to reject the obvious reason for a phenomenon for one of your own creation. One only the most partisan of hacks actually believe. More useless days of "analysis" from people who think they know their opposition but continually display their ignorance of those they disagree with.
This thread is a good example. Besides one poster, I can't think of a single person expressing a positive view of Trump on the whole. Yet, from what we read here, we are supposed to find the hidden sexism come into play. One must wonder. If the Racist Republicans have gone to so much trouble to hide their bigotry, why support a man supposedly so open about it? Would that not defeat and undermine everything they have worked to accomplish? Why not support one of the secret racists? Someone who talks like they do in public? But such a critical thought doesn't even get a passing consideration- the data must be viewed in such a way that it fits the already believed explanation. I'm not certain if I'm understanding your post properly, but I disagree with the premise that a lot of the conservative party has been even attempting to hide their bigotry. I think that a lot of it has been rather explicit! You look at Fox News with their War On Christians/ Whites/ The Rich/ other stereotypical "Check your privilege" contexts, and it's abundantly clear that they'll say and do anything to keep the status quo. Same with the South and the riots with taking down the Confederate Flag, or Texas and their rewriting of history books to remove the KKK and Jim Crowe laws, etc. Plenty of conservatives aren't bigots or jerks, but the #1 conservative media outlet- and much of the sensationalist news coverage- certainly makes it look like plenty of Republicans have no reservations about saying and doing things that are socially backwards. People keep coming up with any explanation that fits. Before Trump all the hacks said "the GOP is full of racists, they just know they can't say anything racist." Then comes Trump, saying apparently racist things, and we are to believe that his appeal is bigotry and not any of the more likely explanations. Moreover none of those things above point to any sort of racism, it's only because you already believe that those people are racist that such things have a racist motive. But my overall point is quite clear. Morever, this begs the obvious question: what happens if (when) Trump fizzles out? Will a large portion of the party have lost their racism. Will they have a come to Jesus moment? His eventual petering out with be the biggest proof that it's about spectacle. Since GH is apparently so prone to taking random right wing blog comments sections seriously (heaven forbid I do that with the left wing ones) he would see by and large people like him because he's "not a politician and doesn't speak like one." And I understand what you are saying, but he doesn't have high Tea Party support and not one of my relatives or friends that I have talked to is a Trump supporter. What has Trump said that is racist? Quote me something he said that is racist. I use words like "apparently" intentionally. My point is not to debate the exact words he speaks (many of which are repulsive) but to address the other point. They say he's appealing to the underlying sexism and racism supposedly rampant in the GOP and anyone who disagrees with left-wing policies. You'd think that after the War on Women's abject failure as a political strategy recently that they would have dropped it. But they haven't. People like him because he's actually going to secure the US border If anything, it's becoming more and more abundantly clear that he is NOT going to be able to secure the US border, because he has no idea what the fuck he's talking about with Mexico and some bullshit wall that he wants to strongarm Mexicans into building and paying for. Even other conservatives like Rubio were pointing out that Trump's understanding of immigration is extremely limited. On August 09 2015 03:47 GreenHorizons wrote:
Heading to Seattle for the Bernie Sanders Rally. Should be another 10k+er
Hope some of you catch it online. Enjoy Even if he couldn't get Mexico to build it, you think he wouldn't do it himself? The border would get secured whether Mexico pays for it or the US pays for it. A big majority of Americans want it secured.
No one is saying that the American border shouldn't be secure, least of all me. I don't know why you keep looking for that fight. You can't just write off his border security idea with "Well maybe it's dumb, but he'll just do it himself anyway!" Apparently you think he's a superhero or something... he must have the ability to come up with ludicrous international plans and then just spend his own money magically fixing real problems when his plans don't work.
|
A new poster coming in here to proclaim the glory of Trump? Sorry but I'm calling troll.
|
According to Intro, it's not worth debating over trump's words, and he does not represent a large part of the conservative base (despite representing a large part of conservatives).
0/10 argument.
According to Danglars, liberals who point out what trump says and how they are received are part of a left wing conspiracy. We're not, it's just really fucking funny.
You two are beautiful. I haven't seen gymnastics like this since the 2012 London Olympics.
Edit:
For two people so vastly concerned with foreign policy (particularly how liberals are bad at it) it's funny that you seem so willing to overlook what would be considered consistent foreign policy gaffes with one of our neighbors in your most popular presidential candidate.
|
On August 09 2015 03:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
No one is saying that the American border shouldn't be secure, least of all me. I don't know why you keep looking for that fight.
That is the Democratic Party's official stance? Or rather, their stance is to not secure the border until several, nearly impossible, hoops have been jumped through.
|
On August 09 2015 03:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2015 03:54 Eskendereya wrote:On August 09 2015 03:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 09 2015 03:31 Introvert wrote:On August 09 2015 00:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 08 2015 16:43 Introvert wrote:
I wonder what it's like to reject the obvious reason for a phenomenon for one of your own creation. One only the most partisan of hacks actually believe. More useless days of "analysis" from people who think they know their opposition but continually display their ignorance of those they disagree with.
This thread is a good example. Besides one poster, I can't think of a single person expressing a positive view of Trump on the whole. Yet, from what we read here, we are supposed to find the hidden sexism come into play. One must wonder. If the Racist Republicans have gone to so much trouble to hide their bigotry, why support a man supposedly so open about it? Would that not defeat and undermine everything they have worked to accomplish? Why not support one of the secret racists? Someone who talks like they do in public? But such a critical thought doesn't even get a passing consideration- the data must be viewed in such a way that it fits the already believed explanation. I'm not certain if I'm understanding your post properly, but I disagree with the premise that a lot of the conservative party has been even attempting to hide their bigotry. I think that a lot of it has been rather explicit! You look at Fox News with their War On Christians/ Whites/ The Rich/ other stereotypical "Check your privilege" contexts, and it's abundantly clear that they'll say and do anything to keep the status quo. Same with the South and the riots with taking down the Confederate Flag, or Texas and their rewriting of history books to remove the KKK and Jim Crowe laws, etc. Plenty of conservatives aren't bigots or jerks, but the #1 conservative media outlet- and much of the sensationalist news coverage- certainly makes it look like plenty of Republicans have no reservations about saying and doing things that are socially backwards. People keep coming up with any explanation that fits. Before Trump all the hacks said "the GOP is full of racists, they just know they can't say anything racist." Then comes Trump, saying apparently racist things, and we are to believe that his appeal is bigotry and not any of the more likely explanations. Moreover none of those things above point to any sort of racism, it's only because you already believe that those people are racist that such things have a racist motive. But my overall point is quite clear. Morever, this begs the obvious question: what happens if (when) Trump fizzles out? Will a large portion of the party have lost their racism. Will they have a come to Jesus moment? His eventual petering out with be the biggest proof that it's about spectacle. Since GH is apparently so prone to taking random right wing blog comments sections seriously (heaven forbid I do that with the left wing ones) he would see by and large people like him because he's "not a politician and doesn't speak like one." And I understand what you are saying, but he doesn't have high Tea Party support and not one of my relatives or friends that I have talked to is a Trump supporter. I'm calling him racist because he acts and speaks like a racist. I never called him racist before that- nor did I even think he was, so I had no prejudicial notions that he was *probably* racist, and now I'm finally fitting this comment into my already predetermined opinion of him, or anything like that. I don't think that his (possibly eventual) fizzling out will really make any huge changes in terms of conservative prejudice. I think people will eventually just vote for a more timid and diplomatic Jeb Bush, and then it'll just be an interesting story about how Trump once ran, just like how people say "Hey remember Palin? Yeahhh..." Is the Tea Party particularly relevant anymore? Trump is kicking everyone else's ass in Republican primary polls for now, until the bubble bursts, and so I think he's currently a serious contender for the nomination. It used to be Jeb's race to lose; now, I think it's Trump's. "I'm calling him racist because he acts and speaks like a racist". How so? Are you saying he's racist for wanting to stop illegal immigration and secure the border? Almost %70 of the country want the border secured, I guess they are all racists too? It's that sort of thinking that is screwing Europe over right now, at the rate illegal immigration is going on in Europe, most of Europe's original inhabitants are going to be minorities in their own countries within a few generations, like in the UK for example. ...what? You haven't listened to his speeches at all, have you? It has nothing to do with him wanting to secure the border lol. At least Google it Show nested quote +On August 09 2015 03:55 Eskendereya wrote:On August 09 2015 03:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 09 2015 03:48 Eskendereya wrote:On August 09 2015 03:38 Introvert wrote:On August 09 2015 03:34 Eskendereya wrote:On August 09 2015 03:31 Introvert wrote:On August 08 2015 17:43 zlefin wrote:
Introvert -> I can't make out what you're trying to say well. I'd probably need it spelled out in considerable detail to understand the point(s) you're trying to make. Trump's appeal isn't his "racism" it IS the fact that he's not PC, which is why he keeps talking about it. Much of what he says is repulsive, but much of it is entertaining. On August 09 2015 00:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 08 2015 16:43 Introvert wrote:
I wonder what it's like to reject the obvious reason for a phenomenon for one of your own creation. One only the most partisan of hacks actually believe. More useless days of "analysis" from people who think they know their opposition but continually display their ignorance of those they disagree with.
This thread is a good example. Besides one poster, I can't think of a single person expressing a positive view of Trump on the whole. Yet, from what we read here, we are supposed to find the hidden sexism come into play. One must wonder. If the Racist Republicans have gone to so much trouble to hide their bigotry, why support a man supposedly so open about it? Would that not defeat and undermine everything they have worked to accomplish? Why not support one of the secret racists? Someone who talks like they do in public? But such a critical thought doesn't even get a passing consideration- the data must be viewed in such a way that it fits the already believed explanation. I'm not certain if I'm understanding your post properly, but I disagree with the premise that a lot of the conservative party has been even attempting to hide their bigotry. I think that a lot of it has been rather explicit! You look at Fox News with their War On Christians/ Whites/ The Rich/ other stereotypical "Check your privilege" contexts, and it's abundantly clear that they'll say and do anything to keep the status quo. Same with the South and the riots with taking down the Confederate Flag, or Texas and their rewriting of history books to remove the KKK and Jim Crowe laws, etc. Plenty of conservatives aren't bigots or jerks, but the #1 conservative media outlet- and much of the sensationalist news coverage- certainly makes it look like plenty of Republicans have no reservations about saying and doing things that are socially backwards. People keep coming up with any explanation that fits. Before Trump all the hacks said "the GOP is full of racists, they just know they can't say anything racist." Then comes Trump, saying apparently racist things, and we are to believe that his appeal is bigotry and not any of the more likely explanations. Moreover none of those things above point to any sort of racism, it's only because you already believe that those people are racist that such things have a racist motive. But my overall point is quite clear. Morever, this begs the obvious question: what happens if (when) Trump fizzles out? Will a large portion of the party have lost their racism. Will they have a come to Jesus moment? His eventual petering out with be the biggest proof that it's about spectacle. Since GH is apparently so prone to taking random right wing blog comments sections seriously (heaven forbid I do that with the left wing ones) he would see by and large people like him because he's "not a politician and doesn't speak like one." And I understand what you are saying, but he doesn't have high Tea Party support and not one of my relatives or friends that I have talked to is a Trump supporter. What has Trump said that is racist? Quote me something he said that is racist. I use words like "apparently" intentionally. My point is not to debate the exact words he speaks (many of which are repulsive) but to address the other point. They say he's appealing to the underlying sexism and racism supposedly rampant in the GOP and anyone who disagrees with left-wing policies. You'd think that after the War on Women's abject failure as a political strategy recently that they would have dropped it. But they haven't. People like him because he's actually going to secure the US border If anything, it's becoming more and more abundantly clear that he is NOT going to be able to secure the US border, because he has no idea what the fuck he's talking about with Mexico and some bullshit wall that he wants to strongarm Mexicans into building and paying for. Even other conservatives like Rubio were pointing out that Trump's understanding of immigration is extremely limited. On August 09 2015 03:47 GreenHorizons wrote:
Heading to Seattle for the Bernie Sanders Rally. Should be another 10k+er
Hope some of you catch it online. Enjoy Even if he couldn't get Mexico to build it, you think he wouldn't do it himself? The border would get secured whether Mexico pays for it or the US pays for it. A big majority of Americans want it secured. No one is saying that the American border shouldn't be secure, least of all me. I don't know why you keep looking for that fight.
I have watched a lot of his speeches and I haven't found one thing he has said that is legibly racist which is why I wanted you to quote something he said specifically that was. The people who think he's racist have misunderstood what he's said.
|
On August 09 2015 03:48 Eskendereya wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2015 03:38 Introvert wrote:On August 09 2015 03:34 Eskendereya wrote:On August 09 2015 03:31 Introvert wrote:On August 08 2015 17:43 zlefin wrote:
Introvert -> I can't make out what you're trying to say well. I'd probably need it spelled out in considerable detail to understand the point(s) you're trying to make. Trump's appeal isn't his "racism" it IS the fact that he's not PC, which is why he keeps talking about it. Much of what he says is repulsive, but much of it is entertaining. On August 09 2015 00:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 08 2015 16:43 Introvert wrote:
I wonder what it's like to reject the obvious reason for a phenomenon for one of your own creation. One only the most partisan of hacks actually believe. More useless days of "analysis" from people who think they know their opposition but continually display their ignorance of those they disagree with.
This thread is a good example. Besides one poster, I can't think of a single person expressing a positive view of Trump on the whole. Yet, from what we read here, we are supposed to find the hidden sexism come into play. One must wonder. If the Racist Republicans have gone to so much trouble to hide their bigotry, why support a man supposedly so open about it? Would that not defeat and undermine everything they have worked to accomplish? Why not support one of the secret racists? Someone who talks like they do in public? But such a critical thought doesn't even get a passing consideration- the data must be viewed in such a way that it fits the already believed explanation. I'm not certain if I'm understanding your post properly, but I disagree with the premise that a lot of the conservative party has been even attempting to hide their bigotry. I think that a lot of it has been rather explicit! You look at Fox News with their War On Christians/ Whites/ The Rich/ other stereotypical "Check your privilege" contexts, and it's abundantly clear that they'll say and do anything to keep the status quo. Same with the South and the riots with taking down the Confederate Flag, or Texas and their rewriting of history books to remove the KKK and Jim Crowe laws, etc. Plenty of conservatives aren't bigots or jerks, but the #1 conservative media outlet- and much of the sensationalist news coverage- certainly makes it look like plenty of Republicans have no reservations about saying and doing things that are socially backwards. People keep coming up with any explanation that fits. Before Trump all the hacks said "the GOP is full of racists, they just know they can't say anything racist." Then comes Trump, saying apparently racist things, and we are to believe that his appeal is bigotry and not any of the more likely explanations. Moreover none of those things above point to any sort of racism, it's only because you already believe that those people are racist that such things have a racist motive. But my overall point is quite clear. Morever, this begs the obvious question: what happens if (when) Trump fizzles out? Will a large portion of the party have lost their racism. Will they have a come to Jesus moment? His eventual petering out with be the biggest proof that it's about spectacle. Since GH is apparently so prone to taking random right wing blog comments sections seriously (heaven forbid I do that with the left wing ones) he would see by and large people like him because he's "not a politician and doesn't speak like one." And I understand what you are saying, but he doesn't have high Tea Party support and not one of my relatives or friends that I have talked to is a Trump supporter. What has Trump said that is racist? Quote me something he said that is racist. I use words like "apparently" intentionally. My point is not to debate the exact words he speaks (many of which are repulsive) but to address the other point. They say he's appealing to the underlying sexism and racism supposedly rampant in the GOP and anyone who disagrees with left-wing policies. You'd think that after the War on Women's abject failure as a political strategy recently that they would have dropped it. But they haven't. People like him because he's actually going to secure the US border which has been a big problem for a long time and they believe he'll bring back a lot of offshore jobs to the US, another thing this country needs. They believe he'll be able to get the economy going again and tackle the enormous debt issue the US has. Perhaps there are some racists that will vote for Trump for whatever reasons like there were for Obama (because he was black) but I'd say they are in the minority. Also, to imply Trump's supporters as being racists and sexists is in itself a form of discrimination and isn't true, at least based on what I have seen.
Read what I've said again. I'm rejecting the idea that people support Trump because they are bigots. When I say that Trump says repulsive things, that doesn't automatically mean that I think they are racist or sexist things. That wasn't what I meant to address.
On August 09 2015 03:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2015 03:43 Introvert wrote:On August 09 2015 03:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 09 2015 03:31 Introvert wrote:On August 09 2015 00:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 08 2015 16:43 Introvert wrote:
I wonder what it's like to reject the obvious reason for a phenomenon for one of your own creation. One only the most partisan of hacks actually believe. More useless days of "analysis" from people who think they know their opposition but continually display their ignorance of those they disagree with.
This thread is a good example. Besides one poster, I can't think of a single person expressing a positive view of Trump on the whole. Yet, from what we read here, we are supposed to find the hidden sexism come into play. One must wonder. If the Racist Republicans have gone to so much trouble to hide their bigotry, why support a man supposedly so open about it? Would that not defeat and undermine everything they have worked to accomplish? Why not support one of the secret racists? Someone who talks like they do in public? But such a critical thought doesn't even get a passing consideration- the data must be viewed in such a way that it fits the already believed explanation. I'm not certain if I'm understanding your post properly, but I disagree with the premise that a lot of the conservative party has been even attempting to hide their bigotry. I think that a lot of it has been rather explicit! You look at Fox News with their War On Christians/ Whites/ The Rich/ other stereotypical "Check your privilege" contexts, and it's abundantly clear that they'll say and do anything to keep the status quo. Same with the South and the riots with taking down the Confederate Flag, or Texas and their rewriting of history books to remove the KKK and Jim Crowe laws, etc. Plenty of conservatives aren't bigots or jerks, but the #1 conservative media outlet- and much of the sensationalist news coverage- certainly makes it look like plenty of Republicans have no reservations about saying and doing things that are socially backwards. People keep coming up with any explanation that fits. Before Trump all the hacks said "the GOP is full of racists, they just know they can't say anything racist." Then comes Trump, saying apparently racist things, and we are to believe that his appeal is bigotry and not any of the more likely explanations. Moreover none of those things above point to any sort of racism, it's only because you already believe that those people are racist that such things have a racist motive. But my overall point is quite clear. Morever, this begs the obvious question: what happens if (when) Trump fizzles out? Will a large portion of the party have lost their racism. Will they have a come to Jesus moment? His eventual petering out with be the biggest proof that it's about spectacle. Since GH is apparently so prone to taking random right wing blog comments sections seriously (heaven forbid I do that with the left wing ones) he would see by and large people like him because he's "not a politician and doesn't speak like one." And I understand what you are saying, but he doesn't have high Tea Party support and not one of my relatives or friends that I have talked to is a Trump supporter. I'm calling him racist because he acts and speaks like a racist. I never called him racist before that- nor did I even think he was, so I had no prejudicial notions that he was *probably* racist, and now I'm finally fitting this comment into my already predetermined opinion of him, or anything like that. I don't think that his (possibly eventual) fizzling out will really make any huge changes in terms of conservative prejudice. I think people will eventually just vote for a more timid and diplomatic Jeb Bush, and then it'll just be an interesting story about how Trump once ran, just like how people say "Hey remember Palin? Yeahhh..." Is the Tea Party particularly relevant anymore? Trump is kicking everyone else's ass in Republican primary polls for now, until the bubble bursts, and so I think he's currently a serious contender for the nomination. It used to be Jeb's race to lose; now, I think it's Trump's. I don't much care to debate his exact words- I don't care for him or for what he says. But I think your understanding of people on the right is (like so many others) simply too limited. Trump could emerge the front funner, but saying it's his race to lose is simply wrong, if history is anything to go by. These polls, for instance, mean very little. The fact that you and GH pour so much into them could come back to bite you. Now it may not, but history says it's a dangerous game. Therefore, so is using them to prove some sort of point about your political opposition. I don't understand what you mean by "come back to bite you" or warning that it's "a dangerous game". All I'm saying is that you can't completely write him off, especially since the media and news aren't ignoring him. Trump doesn't just magically disappear from anything. I think it'd be much smarter to take him as seriously as any other candidate, weigh his pros and cons, and decide if he's worth voting for (either in the primary or the general election). The polls will certainly change in the upcoming year, but keep in mind that even these early polls dictated who was allowed into the "real" Republican debate and who was stuck on the JV happy hour team, so they're still going to set the pace until some candidates find a way to step up or fizzle out.
You are using Trump's words (as you see them) to back up your point about many people on the right. To do this you are reading far too much into the polls as they stand now. If Trump goes away, then either one has to acknowledge that the polls were a bad metric to use in the first place, or come up with some alternate explanation. I've dealt with other instances of perceived GOP racism, and this Argument from Trump is bad, just like all the others.
I'm, not writing him off, just like I don't write off Sanders winning his primary (although I feel like in that case it would be more about Hillary imploding). Anything can happen. But it's best to accept the most reasonable explanation and work from the most likely outcome.
|
On August 09 2015 03:59 Gorsameth wrote:
A new poster coming in here to proclaim the glory of Trump? Sorry but I'm calling troll.
And I'm calling bigot. Unlike you, I can tolerate people who disagree with me, especially if they are at least decent about it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
