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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1751

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4756 Posts
March 20 2015 17:14 GMT
#35001
On March 21 2015 02:06 oneofthem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2015 01:43 Introvert wrote:
On March 20 2015 21:08 oneofthem wrote:
it really is funny because the tea party types were rather suspicious of a national id program, what with the tracking chips and fema camps.


Don't lump me witb the conspiracy people plz. I don't think most Tea Party people are.
Never mind that this isn't national ID, it's state ID.

im proposing a more comprehensive national id system. would help with crime and immigration control as well


It'd have to be opt in, I think. I don't think you could Constitutionality require it for all citizens. There aren't many things that the government can force you to just for being a citizen. The draft and taxes are the only real examples I can think of.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
March 20 2015 17:22 GMT
#35002
it could be based off of existing federal programs like social security.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
March 20 2015 17:25 GMT
#35003
On March 21 2015 02:14 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2015 02:06 oneofthem wrote:
On March 21 2015 01:43 Introvert wrote:
On March 20 2015 21:08 oneofthem wrote:
it really is funny because the tea party types were rather suspicious of a national id program, what with the tracking chips and fema camps.


Don't lump me witb the conspiracy people plz. I don't think most Tea Party people are.
Never mind that this isn't national ID, it's state ID.

im proposing a more comprehensive national id system. would help with crime and immigration control as well


It'd have to be opt in, I think. I don't think you could Constitutionality require it for all citizens. There aren't many things that the government can force you to just for being a citizen. The draft and taxes are the only real examples I can think of.

I think it would be pretty easy to make a national ID system constitutional as a component of existing federal taxation and benefits schemes. It's not like a new national ID database would need to contain any information that the federal government doesn't already have.
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4756 Posts
March 20 2015 17:30 GMT
#35004
On March 21 2015 02:22 oneofthem wrote:
it could be based off of existing federal programs like social security.


Idk, I haven't thought about it. But I wouldn't oppose it because of a fear about fema camps.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4756 Posts
March 20 2015 17:34 GMT
#35005
On March 21 2015 02:25 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2015 02:14 Introvert wrote:
On March 21 2015 02:06 oneofthem wrote:
On March 21 2015 01:43 Introvert wrote:
On March 20 2015 21:08 oneofthem wrote:
it really is funny because the tea party types were rather suspicious of a national id program, what with the tracking chips and fema camps.


Don't lump me witb the conspiracy people plz. I don't think most Tea Party people are.
Never mind that this isn't national ID, it's state ID.

im proposing a more comprehensive national id system. would help with crime and immigration control as well


It'd have to be opt in, I think. I don't think you could Constitutionality require it for all citizens. There aren't many things that the government can force you to just for being a citizen. The draft and taxes are the only real examples I can think of.

I think it would be pretty easy to make a national ID system constitutional as a component of existing federal taxation and benefits schemes. It's not like a new national ID database would need to contain any information that the federal government doesn't already have.


I could see that. Many benefit programs already require some form of ID. To extend it to every citizen I think would be harder, but you're the lawyer so I'll take your word for it
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-20 17:59:22
March 20 2015 17:59 GMT
#35006
An employee of Florida’s environmental protection department was forced to take a leave of absence and seek a mental health evaluation for violating governor Rick Scott’s unwritten ban on using the phrases “climate change” or “global warming” under any circumstance, according to a complaint filed against the state.

Longtime employee Barton Bibler reportedly included an explicit mention of climate change in his official notes from a Florida Coastal Managers Forum meeting in late February, during which climate change, rising sea levels and the possible environmental impact of the Keystone XL Pipeline were discussed.

On 9 March, Bibler received a formal reprimand for “misrepresenting that ‘the official meeting agenda included climate change’”, according to a statement from Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility (Peer), a nationwide non-profit that champions public employees’ rights and providers resources and guidance to whistleblowers using its network of members across the country.

Bibler was instructed to stay away from the office for two days and told he could return to work only after a mental health evaluation from his doctor verified his “fitness for duty”, the complaint said. In the letter to Florida’s inspector general, Candie Fuller, the state’s Peer director calls for a full investigation to the matter.

Bibler told the Miami Herald that he “didn’t get the memo” about the gag order, so when he introduced himself by congratulating other officials on the call for the “exciting” work they were doing to address climate change, the “reaction was mostly shock”.

News of the governor’s ban on the phrases first surfaced in early March, when the Florida Center for Investigative Reporting found that the ban came from the top after Scott took office and appointed Herschel Vinyard Jr as DEP director.

Guardian requests for comment from Scott, the Florida inspector general and the environmental protection department were not immediately returned on Thursday, but Scott and representatives from his office have ardently denied such a policy exists.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23233 Posts
March 20 2015 18:36 GMT
#35007
(also I am not sure why voter lines came up since that clearly effects all voters, so it's entirely irrelevant)


That's supposed to be a joke right? I mean, you know how ridiculous that sounds?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13933 Posts
March 20 2015 19:21 GMT
#35008
On March 21 2015 03:36 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
(also I am not sure why voter lines came up since that clearly effects all voters, so it's entirely irrelevant)


That's supposed to be a joke right? I mean, you know how ridiculous that sounds?

Long voter lines does effect minorities disproportionately. I've never seen a line near me while hours long lines are commonplace in ghetto type places.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 20 2015 19:48 GMT
#35009
ASHINGTON -- The Department of Interior released new rules for hydraulic fracturing for oil and gas on public lands in the United States on Friday, the first significant update to the regulations in three decades.

"Decades-old regulations don't take into account current technology for hydraulic fracturing," said Interior Sec. Sally Jewell in a call with reporters Friday. The new rules will require companies drilling on public lands to disclose the chemicals they are using to the Bureau of Land Management, will set higher standards for the storage of wastewater from the fracking process, and will require validation of well integrity.

There are 100,000 oil and gas wells on public lands across the U.S., according to the department, and 90 percent of those in operation use hydraulic fracturing, a process that uses a high-pressure stream of water, sand and chemicals to tap into oil and gas reserves. Friday's final rule applies only to development on public lands, however, not to the much more prolific development of state and private land. The Bureau of Land Management oversees 756 million acres of public land across the country.

"It's important that the public has confidence that it's being done safely," said Jewell. "I don't think anybody would say it's common sense to keep regulations in place that were created 30 years ago."

Under the rules, companies drilling on public lands will need to disclose the chemicals they are using through FracFocus, an industry-sponsored website, and submit that information within 30 days of beginning the fracking operation. BLM Director Neil Kornze said that the rule does allow for "limited exceptions for disclosure" under trade secret laws, but that BLM will be able to access a listing of all chemicals in the event of a spill or other accident.

The Department of Interior said it received 1.5 million comments on the draft version of the rules, which were released in May 2013.

Complaints about the new rules came from all directions Friday. A group of five environmental organizations, including Greenpeace, Friends of the Earth and the Center for Biological Diversity, issued a statement calling the rules "toothless," and argued that they give too much leeway for the further development of public lands in an era when climate change considerations should be pushing the U.S. away from fossil fuels.

Rep. Raúl M. Grijalva (D-Ariz.), ranking member of the House Natural Resources Committee, said in a statement that the regulation "lets industry off the hook." "Rather than raising the bar, the Bureau settled for the lowest common denominator ... Half measures aren't a realistic response to the situation we face today," he said.

But industry backlash has been just as swift. The American Petroleum Institute, the industry's leading trade organization, criticized the rules as "duplicative." "Despite the renaissance on state and private lands, energy production on federal lands has fallen, and this rule is just one more barrier to growth," said Erik Milito, API's director of upstream and industry operations, in a statement.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Wolfstan
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada605 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-20 20:45:38
March 20 2015 20:27 GMT
#35010
On March 21 2015 04:48 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
ASHINGTON -- The Department of Interior released new rules for hydraulic fracturing for oil and gas on public lands in the United States on Friday, the first significant update to the regulations in three decades.

"Decades-old regulations don't take into account current technology for hydraulic fracturing," said Interior Sec. Sally Jewell in a call with reporters Friday. The new rules will require companies drilling on public lands to disclose the chemicals they are using to the Bureau of Land Management, will set higher standards for the storage of wastewater from the fracking process, and will require validation of well integrity.

There are 100,000 oil and gas wells on public lands across the U.S., according to the department, and 90 percent of those in operation use hydraulic fracturing, a process that uses a high-pressure stream of water, sand and chemicals to tap into oil and gas reserves. Friday's final rule applies only to development on public lands, however, not to the much more prolific development of state and private land. The Bureau of Land Management oversees 756 million acres of public land across the country.

"It's important that the public has confidence that it's being done safely," said Jewell. "I don't think anybody would say it's common sense to keep regulations in place that were created 30 years ago."

Under the rules, companies drilling on public lands will need to disclose the chemicals they are using through FracFocus, an industry-sponsored website, and submit that information within 30 days of beginning the fracking operation. BLM Director Neil Kornze said that the rule does allow for "limited exceptions for disclosure" under trade secret laws, but that BLM will be able to access a listing of all chemicals in the event of a spill or other accident.

The Department of Interior said it received 1.5 million comments on the draft version of the rules, which were released in May 2013.

Complaints about the new rules came from all directions Friday. A group of five environmental organizations, including Greenpeace, Friends of the Earth and the Center for Biological Diversity, issued a statement calling the rules "toothless," and argued that they give too much leeway for the further development of public lands in an era when climate change considerations should be pushing the U.S. away from fossil fuels.

Rep. Raúl M. Grijalva (D-Ariz.), ranking member of the House Natural Resources Committee, said in a statement that the regulation "lets industry off the hook." "Rather than raising the bar, the Bureau settled for the lowest common denominator ... Half measures aren't a realistic response to the situation we face today," he said.

But industry backlash has been just as swift. The American Petroleum Institute, the industry's leading trade organization, criticized the rules as "duplicative." "Despite the renaissance on state and private lands, energy production on federal lands has fallen, and this rule is just one more barrier to growth," said Erik Milito, API's director of upstream and industry operations, in a statement.


Source


Disclosure of chemicals and utilization of new storage and disposal technology? Sounds reasonable. Thank you Department of Interior for showing this Canadian that governance from the center is possible in America.

The left side of no infrastructure or resource development at all no matter the advancement of technology ever because "climate change" is unreasonable. Repeat after me "a pipeline, tailings pond, drilling well, nuclear power plant is not the same as one built in the 60's"

The right side of no regulation or minimum standards at all ever because "growth" is unreasonable. Repeat after me "adaptation of technology can be a catalyst for growth or growth unto itself."
EG - ROOT - Gambit Gaming
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17992 Posts
March 20 2015 21:39 GMT
#35011
On March 21 2015 02:34 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2015 02:25 xDaunt wrote:
On March 21 2015 02:14 Introvert wrote:
On March 21 2015 02:06 oneofthem wrote:
On March 21 2015 01:43 Introvert wrote:
On March 20 2015 21:08 oneofthem wrote:
it really is funny because the tea party types were rather suspicious of a national id program, what with the tracking chips and fema camps.


Don't lump me witb the conspiracy people plz. I don't think most Tea Party people are.
Never mind that this isn't national ID, it's state ID.

im proposing a more comprehensive national id system. would help with crime and immigration control as well


It'd have to be opt in, I think. I don't think you could Constitutionality require it for all citizens. There aren't many things that the government can force you to just for being a citizen. The draft and taxes are the only real examples I can think of.

I think it would be pretty easy to make a national ID system constitutional as a component of existing federal taxation and benefits schemes. It's not like a new national ID database would need to contain any information that the federal government doesn't already have.


I could see that. Many benefit programs already require some form of ID. To extend it to every citizen I think would be harder, but you're the lawyer so I'll take your word for it


What is going on here. I thought the two of you were opposed to any form of unnecessary government (and especially federal) meddling? How is having a national ID database not against that philosophy?
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17992 Posts
March 20 2015 21:44 GMT
#35012
On March 21 2015 03:36 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
(also I am not sure why voter lines came up since that clearly effects all voters, so it's entirely irrelevant)


That's supposed to be a joke right? I mean, you know how ridiculous that sounds?

Honestly, no. I don't know how ridiculous that sounds. I still don't understand how requiring an ID card causes long voter lines. The two seem completely unrelated.

The only reason I can think of is that for some reason a reduction in polling stations in certain areas was added on as a waiver to some voter ID law. Which is your typical US bullcrap of adding shit onto laws as riders where it doesn't belong and has nothing to do with anything.

Here, please pass this law on water management... oh, and it has an anti-abortion rider on it too, so you have to pass that too if you want the water management law (this is a fictional example, and I don't want to imply that it's only republicans pulling this type of stupid stunt).
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4756 Posts
March 20 2015 21:50 GMT
#35013
On March 21 2015 06:39 Acrofales wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2015 02:34 Introvert wrote:
On March 21 2015 02:25 xDaunt wrote:
On March 21 2015 02:14 Introvert wrote:
On March 21 2015 02:06 oneofthem wrote:
On March 21 2015 01:43 Introvert wrote:
On March 20 2015 21:08 oneofthem wrote:
it really is funny because the tea party types were rather suspicious of a national id program, what with the tracking chips and fema camps.


Don't lump me witb the conspiracy people plz. I don't think most Tea Party people are.
Never mind that this isn't national ID, it's state ID.

im proposing a more comprehensive national id system. would help with crime and immigration control as well


It'd have to be opt in, I think. I don't think you could Constitutionality require it for all citizens. There aren't many things that the government can force you to just for being a citizen. The draft and taxes are the only real examples I can think of.

I think it would be pretty easy to make a national ID system constitutional as a component of existing federal taxation and benefits schemes. It's not like a new national ID database would need to contain any information that the federal government doesn't already have.


I could see that. Many benefit programs already require some form of ID. To extend it to every citizen I think would be harder, but you're the lawyer so I'll take your word for it


What is going on here. I thought the two of you were opposed to any form of unnecessary government (and especially federal) meddling? How is having a national ID database not against that philosophy?


I wasn't expressing support for the idea, I was wondering if it would be legal, that's all. Also, I'm trying to distance myself from people who think there are secret FEMA camps where they take people for whatever odd reason that conspiracy theorists come up with.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
March 20 2015 21:50 GMT
#35014
social security number is a de facto national ID system. slap the person's photo and some identifying information on there, and bam you have an almost universal national id. i think (but am not sure) that you need a SSN to vote so kill two birds with one stone.
Millitron
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2611 Posts
March 20 2015 23:25 GMT
#35015
Does anybody else find it odd that people whine and cry about voter ID's preventing people from voting, but nobody seems to care that you have to spend hundreds of dollars and huge amounts of paperwork to carry a gun? Both voting and bearing arms are constitutional rights, but somehow it's OK to have hundreds of dollars and months of paperwork to exercise one of them.

Making showing any valid ID mandatory to vote is disenfranchising, but somehow hundreds of dollars in fees and months of paperwork to carry a gun isn't. Don't poor people have the right to bear arms? The 2nd Amendment doesn't say "...shall not be infringed, unless you can't afford it in which case fuck you".
Who called in the fleet?
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18827 Posts
March 20 2015 23:35 GMT
#35016
On March 21 2015 08:25 Millitron wrote:
Does anybody else find it odd that people whine and cry about voter ID's preventing people from voting, but nobody seems to care that you have to spend hundreds of dollars and huge amounts of paperwork to carry a gun? Both voting and bearing arms are constitutional rights, but somehow it's OK to have hundreds of dollars and months of paperwork to exercise one of them.

Making showing any valid ID mandatory to vote is disenfranchising, but somehow hundreds of dollars in fees and months of paperwork to carry a gun isn't. Don't poor people have the right to bear arms? The 2nd Amendment doesn't say "...shall not be infringed, unless you can't afford it in which case fuck you".

There are a multitude of cost-based hurdles to civil service access, and the propriety of each is determined relative to the right being provided for or protected. Not all rights are granted equally, and they never have been. Some people agree with you in saying that the right to vote and the right to bear arms are to be given equal gravity and therefore afforded similar deference in terms of practical access.

Those people are, for the most part, not here, and this ought not surprise you.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
March 20 2015 23:35 GMT
#35017
On March 21 2015 08:25 Millitron wrote:
Does anybody else find it odd that people whine and cry about voter ID's preventing people from voting, but nobody seems to care that you have to spend hundreds of dollars and huge amounts of paperwork to carry a gun? Both voting and bearing arms are constitutional rights, but somehow it's OK to have hundreds of dollars and months of paperwork to exercise one of them.

Making showing any valid ID mandatory to vote is disenfranchising, but somehow hundreds of dollars in fees and months of paperwork to carry a gun isn't. Don't poor people have the right to bear arms? The 2nd Amendment doesn't say "...shall not be infringed, unless you can't afford it in which case fuck you".

Is there some kind of Godwin's Law about all US constitution discussions leading to the 2nd Amendment?
Average means I'm better than half of you.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23233 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-20 23:41:41
March 20 2015 23:38 GMT
#35018
On March 21 2015 06:44 Acrofales wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2015 03:36 GreenHorizons wrote:
(also I am not sure why voter lines came up since that clearly effects all voters, so it's entirely irrelevant)


That's supposed to be a joke right? I mean, you know how ridiculous that sounds?

Honestly, no. I don't know how ridiculous that sounds. I still don't understand how requiring an ID card causes long voter lines. The two seem completely unrelated.

The only reason I can think of is that for some reason a reduction in polling stations in certain areas was added on as a waiver to some voter ID law. Which is your typical US bullcrap of adding shit onto laws as riders where it doesn't belong and has nothing to do with anything.

Here, please pass this law on water management... oh, and it has an anti-abortion rider on it too, so you have to pass that too if you want the water management law (this is a fictional example, and I don't want to imply that it's only republicans pulling this type of stupid stunt).


Yes they did add the riders like you mention although they were aimed at high turnout days for dems. The whole pretending it was only about ID was a fraud to begin with.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Millitron
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2611 Posts
March 20 2015 23:39 GMT
#35019
On March 21 2015 08:35 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2015 08:25 Millitron wrote:
Does anybody else find it odd that people whine and cry about voter ID's preventing people from voting, but nobody seems to care that you have to spend hundreds of dollars and huge amounts of paperwork to carry a gun? Both voting and bearing arms are constitutional rights, but somehow it's OK to have hundreds of dollars and months of paperwork to exercise one of them.

Making showing any valid ID mandatory to vote is disenfranchising, but somehow hundreds of dollars in fees and months of paperwork to carry a gun isn't. Don't poor people have the right to bear arms? The 2nd Amendment doesn't say "...shall not be infringed, unless you can't afford it in which case fuck you".

Is there some kind of Godwin's Law about all US constitution discussions leading to the 2nd Amendment?

No, but I do love my guns, so I do like to talk about them.
Who called in the fleet?
Leporello
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2845 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-20 23:53:43
March 20 2015 23:49 GMT
#35020
On March 21 2015 08:25 Millitron wrote:
Does anybody else find it odd that people whine and cry about voter ID's preventing people from voting, but nobody seems to care that you have to spend hundreds of dollars and huge amounts of paperwork to carry a gun? Both voting and bearing arms are constitutional rights, but somehow it's OK to have hundreds of dollars and months of paperwork to exercise one of them.

Making showing any valid ID mandatory to vote is disenfranchising, but somehow hundreds of dollars in fees and months of paperwork to carry a gun isn't. Don't poor people have the right to bear arms? The 2nd Amendment doesn't say "...shall not be infringed, unless you can't afford it in which case fuck you".


No, I don't find it odd, because no one has been arguing voter ID is inherently unconstitutional. More that it is unproductive, unnecessary, and political.


I'm not sure what your point is, that we should be giving out guns at our DMVs? If you don't see why voter registration is easier than gun registration, I suggest trying common sense.

Voting is the process of electing our government. Guns are weapons. Why should those things be completely equivocated, exactly? Our government spends money on the logistical process of elections. Do you think the federal and state government should spend money to help people register guns? Is that what you're proposing?

Elections are a necessary service to maintain a representative government. It is not necessary, in the slightest, for our government to do the same with guns. I truly, fully do not care, in the tiniest bit, that it is harder to obtain a gun license than it is to register to vote.

MAYBE if I could believe for a second that our government needed the security of your or anyone else's militia, then sure, let's make gun registration as much a priority as that voting thing.
Big water
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