In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!
NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Holder also said President Barack Obama's task force on policing will issue guidelines to address jailing citizens who owe money to the city, a practice used in Ferguson. But he noted that the federal government does not have the authority to demand such a change of local governments.
This is actually interesting. I had a friend who owed my local county court a semi-large amount of fines for stuff that he did breaking the law. While in court he told the judge he didn't think he would be able to pay the full amount by the deadline and asked if there was some sort of payment option or if he could push the deadline back further or anything else he could do. The judge told him he could spend time in jail to offset some (or all) of the fine depending on how long he went. Apparently the county made money off of him being incarcerated so he ended up asking the judge (who gave him the idea and complied) to send him to jail so he wouldn't have to pay the fine. In his case, it was better for him to go to jail because he could not afford the amount of money. I'm curious if at least some of the cases in Ferguson are somewhat similar.
Last week, Willie Soon was caught failing to disclose conflicts of interest in his climate research and congressional testimony after having received over $1.2 million in funding from fossil fuel companies. This revelation raised alarms in Congress, with Rep. Grijalva sending letters to the universities of seven other scientists who have provided climate-related testimony, and Senators Markey, Boxer, and Whitehouse sending inquiries to 100 fossil fuel companies, trade groups, and NGOs. Senator Markey wrote,
For years we’ve known that fossil fuel interests have sought to block action on climate change and have denied the science. This investigation will help to determine who is funding these denial-for-hire operations and whether those who are funded by these fossil fuel interests are keeping their funders’ identities secret from the public and legislators
Soon’s funding and failure to disclose conflicts of interest raises red flags, and upon further investigation, the underlying problem is clear. Willie Soon does really bad science, and yet is treated as a climate expert and used by members of Congress to justify opposition to climate policies.
In a paper published last year with our colleagues, John Abraham and I discussed the disproportionate attention that poor-quality climate contrarian papers have received. And as I detailed in my just-published book, climate contrarians like Soon simply aren’t held accountable for their bad science and failed climate predictions. This lack of accountability and disproportionate attention are serious problems.
The reason Soon can be treated as an expert is that he’s been able to publish climate-related research in peer-reviewed journals. To get bad science published in peer-reviewed journals, Soon has followed the same strategies as other climate contrarians with flawed research. He has submitted papers to relatively obscure, non-climate science journals, and he’s exploited “pal review” with friendly journal editors.
For example, Climate Research editor Chris de Freitas published 14 separate papers from a group of climate contrarians that included Willie Soon during 1997–2003. The practice finally ended in 2003 after the journal published a particularly bad paper by Soon and his colleague Sallie Baliunas.
That paper concluded that current global temperatures are not anomalous compared the past 1,000 years. However, it contained numerous major fundamental flaws, such as equating dryness with hotness, and was subsequently refuted by an article in the American Geophysical Union journal Eos written by a number of prominent climate scientists. The publication of this badly flawed paper, and Climate Research’s refusal to revise or retract it, led to the resignation of five of the journal’s editors. Michael Mann documents the episode in detail in The Hockey Stick and the Climate Wars.
After publishing this paper, Soon was invited by Senator James Inhofe to testify before US Congress, and the Soon and Baliunas paper was used by Congressional Republicans to justify opposition to climate legislation. During that testimony, Soon claimed not to have knowingly received funding from organizations that oppose climate legislation. In reality, he had received such funding. Twelve years later, US Congress still has yet to pass climate legislation.
Remembering Selma: 50 years ago (When most of our representatives were children/teenagers/young adults)
Fifty years ago this week on the Edmund Pettus Bridge in Selma, Alabama, the American civil rights movement came to a violent and powerful climax.
Hundreds of predominately black protesters of all ages were attacked in broad daylight with tear gas, billy clubs and even whips by the Alabama National Guard and local law enforcement. They were subject to the violence for simply trying to exercise their First Amendment freedom in a march to shine a national spotlight on legal minority voter suppression in the Deep South.
The nonviolent activists endured vicious beatings and hateful epithets, and their sacrifice shamed a nation into recognizing that it could not consider itself a democracy when a significant portion of its population is denied the right to participate fully in it.
Sheriff Jim Clark, Dallas County Selma, Ala., stands in front of a group of African-Americans lined up at a side door of the Dallas County Court House in Selma on Jan. 21, 1965, as they drive to boost their voting strength from the present 300 to a 15,000 maximum and face arrest in the process. Sheriff Clark and his possemen have become a symbol of resistance to the African-American community, with clubs and electric cattle prods. Many were arrested by Clark, when they refused to use an alley entrance to the court house.
(L) Civil rights leader Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. pauses in front of the Hotel Albert after leading a successful challenge to Selma’s historic segregation barriers, Jan. 22, 1965. Dr. King registered at the century-old hotel and then lead a march to register blacks to vote at the county courthouse. (R) Police frisk African-Americans arrested as they attempted to get into the voter registration line in Selma, Ala. on Jan. 26, 1965. After the first 100 African-Americans lined up to register, the police would not permit others to get in line in accordance with a court order.
Three white civil rights workers are arrested by Dallas County deputy sheriffs in Selma, Ala., on Jan. 27, 1965, as they approached line of African Americans lined up to register to vote at the courthouse. Officers told them to move on and when they argued they were arrested.
Hosea Williams, civil rights activist, tells demonstrators in Selma, Ala., that they will march to the courthouse “come hell or high water,” Feb. 13, 1965.
It rained all day but that did not dampen the spirits of blacks determined to register to vote, Feb. 17, 1965. They stood in the rain trying to register in a priority book to take voter registration test in Selma, Ala. Nearly 1,000 black names were now on the book waiting to take the voter registration test.
John Lewis, center, of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, is forced to the ground as state troopers break up the demonstration on March 7, 1965, what has become known as “Bloody Sunday” in Selma, Ala. Supporters of black voting rights organized a march from Selma to Montgomery to protest the killing of a demonstrator by a state trooper and to improve voter registration for blacks, who are discouraged to register.
Civil rights demonstrators struggle on the ground as state troopers use violence to break up a march in Selma, Ala., on what is known as Bloody Sunday on March 7, 1965. The supporters of black voting rights organized a march from Selma to Montgomery to protest the killing of a demonstrator by a state trooper and to improve voter registration for blacks, who are discouraged to register.
Tear gas fumes fill the air as state troopers, ordered by Gov. George Wallace, break up a demonstration march in Selma, Ala., on what is known as Bloody Sunday on March 7, 1965. As several hundred marchers crossed the Edmund Pettus Bridge to begin their protest march to Montgomery, state troopers violently assaulted the crowd with clubs and whips. A shocked nation watched the police brutality on television and demanded that Washington intervene and protect voter registration rights for blacks.
A marcher takes a rest, March 1965 in Alabama. The marchers walked about 12 miles a day under the protection of federal troops, and slept in the fields at night.
A line of policemen on duty during a black voting rights march in Montgomery, Ala. Around 50,000 supporters met the marchers in Montgomery, where they gathered in front of the state capitol to hear Dr. King and other speakers address the crowd.
More pictures and a fuller description can be found here
Holder also said President Barack Obama's task force on policing will issue guidelines to address jailing citizens who owe money to the city, a practice used in Ferguson. But he noted that the federal government does not have the authority to demand such a change of local governments.
This is actually interesting. I had a friend who owed my local county court a semi-large amount of fines for stuff that he did breaking the law. While in court he told the judge he didn't think he would be able to pay the full amount by the deadline and asked if there was some sort of payment option or if he could push the deadline back further or anything else he could do. The judge told him he could spend time in jail to offset some (or all) of the fine depending on how long he went. Apparently the county made money off of him being incarcerated so he ended up asking the judge (who gave him the idea and complied) to send him to jail so he wouldn't have to pay the fine. In his case, it was better for him to go to jail because he could not afford the amount of money. I'm curious if at least some of the cases in Ferguson are somewhat similar.
Some local governments around the country are actually billing you for time you spend in prison as well as legal fees, trial fees, and anything else they can saddle you with. It's a nasty situation and pretty horrifying, especially since so few affected individuals have the resources or understanding to effectively appeal the situation.
Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas) suggested Saturday that the Justice Department’s criminal corruption charges against Sen. Bob Menendez (D-N.J.) are political retribution against the New Jersey Democrat for opposing the White House’s negotiations with Iran.
Cruz made the allegations to a throng of reporters jammed into the corner of a tent outside the Iowa Ag Summit in Des Moines without even having been asked about the Menendez criminal charges.
“The announcement this week by the Justice Department that they were bringing charges against Bob Menendez — I will point out that the timing seems awfully coincidental that … in the very week that Bob Menendez showed incredible courage to speak out and call out President Obama for the damage that his policy is doing to our national security … the Justice Department announces they’re moving forward with the criminal prosecution,” Cruz said.
“It raises the suggestion to other Democrats that if you dare part from the Obama White House, that criminal prosecutions will be used potentially as a political weapon against you as well,” he added...
“The timing is curious,” Cruz continued. “This investigation has been going on for over a year and yet the very week they announce a pending indictment comes within hours after Sen. Menendez showing courage to speak out against President Obama’s dangerous foreign policy that is risking the national security of this country.”
Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas) suggested Saturday that the Justice Department’s criminal corruption charges against Sen. Bob Menendez (D-N.J.) are political retribution against the New Jersey Democrat for opposing the White House’s negotiations with Iran.
Cruz made the allegations to a throng of reporters jammed into the corner of a tent outside the Iowa Ag Summit in Des Moines without even having been asked about the Menendez criminal charges.
“The announcement this week by the Justice Department that they were bringing charges against Bob Menendez — I will point out that the timing seems awfully coincidental that … in the very week that Bob Menendez showed incredible courage to speak out and call out President Obama for the damage that his policy is doing to our national security … the Justice Department announces they’re moving forward with the criminal prosecution,” Cruz said.
“It raises the suggestion to other Democrats that if you dare part from the Obama White House, that criminal prosecutions will be used potentially as a political weapon against you as well,” he added...
“The timing is curious,” Cruz continued. “This investigation has been going on for over a year and yet the very week they announce a pending indictment comes within hours after Sen. Menendez showing courage to speak out against President Obama’s dangerous foreign policy that is risking the national security of this country.”
It sounds more like he's going on the attack to me. Nobody else was really suggesting that this step now was political retribution.
Holder also said President Barack Obama's task force on policing will issue guidelines to address jailing citizens who owe money to the city, a practice used in Ferguson. But he noted that the federal government does not have the authority to demand such a change of local governments.
This is actually interesting. I had a friend who owed my local county court a semi-large amount of fines for stuff that he did breaking the law. While in court he told the judge he didn't think he would be able to pay the full amount by the deadline and asked if there was some sort of payment option or if he could push the deadline back further or anything else he could do. The judge told him he could spend time in jail to offset some (or all) of the fine depending on how long he went. Apparently the county made money off of him being incarcerated so he ended up asking the judge (who gave him the idea and complied) to send him to jail so he wouldn't have to pay the fine. In his case, it was better for him to go to jail because he could not afford the amount of money. I'm curious if at least some of the cases in Ferguson are somewhat similar.
Some local governments around the country are actually billing you for time you spend in prison as well as legal fees, trial fees, and anything else they can saddle you with. It's a nasty situation and pretty horrifying, especially since so few affected individuals have the resources or understanding to effectively appeal the situation.
never heard of them charging for prison time. example?
legal fees? i assume you mean public defender fees, which is standard based on formulas designed to determine how much they can afford. if you are referring to prosecutor fees, example?
trial fees / court costs is standard.
at the end of the day though, taxes are paying for all of this. so, you are saying that its improper for the individual who caused the situation to pay more for wasted money they caused when the alternative is taking money from other civic programs (e.g., schools, roads, politicians' hush funds) to pay for it.
In what could be a prelude to a Presidential run in 2016, on Friday Joe Biden released to the public both e-mails that he has written while serving as Vice-President for the past six years.
Biden took pride in announcing that he had sent both messages from his official government e-mail address, adding, “I have nothing to hide.”
Minutes after the e-mails were released, the media pored over the treasure trove of materials, which offer a fascinating behind-the-scenes glimpse into Biden’s tenure as Vice-President.
The first e-mail, written to President Obama in December of 2009, asks about the time and place of the White House holiday party.
The second and last e-mail, written in May of last year, asks the President, “Is our Internet slow today? I’m trying to watch something,” followed by a frowny-face emoticon.
According to Biden’s records, the President did not respond to either e-mail.
Holder also said President Barack Obama's task force on policing will issue guidelines to address jailing citizens who owe money to the city, a practice used in Ferguson. But he noted that the federal government does not have the authority to demand such a change of local governments.
This is actually interesting. I had a friend who owed my local county court a semi-large amount of fines for stuff that he did breaking the law. While in court he told the judge he didn't think he would be able to pay the full amount by the deadline and asked if there was some sort of payment option or if he could push the deadline back further or anything else he could do. The judge told him he could spend time in jail to offset some (or all) of the fine depending on how long he went. Apparently the county made money off of him being incarcerated so he ended up asking the judge (who gave him the idea and complied) to send him to jail so he wouldn't have to pay the fine. In his case, it was better for him to go to jail because he could not afford the amount of money. I'm curious if at least some of the cases in Ferguson are somewhat similar.
Some local governments around the country are actually billing you for time you spend in prison as well as legal fees, trial fees, and anything else they can saddle you with. It's a nasty situation and pretty horrifying, especially since so few affected individuals have the resources or understanding to effectively appeal the situation.
never heard of them charging for prison time. example?
legal fees? i assume you mean public defender fees, which is standard based on formulas designed to determine how much they can afford. if you are referring to prosecutor fees, example?
trial fees / court costs is standard.
at the end of the day though, taxes are paying for all of this. so, you are saying that its improper for the individual who caused the situation to pay more for wasted money they caused when the alternative is taking money from other civic programs (e.g., schools, roads, politicians' hush funds) to pay for it.
You are using causation in a very particular sense here. "Participation" is the more apt word. That it takes away from the force of your conclusion is the sad reality. To say that the poor man who was stopped and frisked "caused" the court costs is to ignore the selection process, which starts at least back at the policeman who, in his nearly boundless discretion, decided to stop the poor man. To talk about "causes" we probably should go all the way back to the man's birth, which he did not cause.
Holder also said President Barack Obama's task force on policing will issue guidelines to address jailing citizens who owe money to the city, a practice used in Ferguson. But he noted that the federal government does not have the authority to demand such a change of local governments.
This is actually interesting. I had a friend who owed my local county court a semi-large amount of fines for stuff that he did breaking the law. While in court he told the judge he didn't think he would be able to pay the full amount by the deadline and asked if there was some sort of payment option or if he could push the deadline back further or anything else he could do. The judge told him he could spend time in jail to offset some (or all) of the fine depending on how long he went. Apparently the county made money off of him being incarcerated so he ended up asking the judge (who gave him the idea and complied) to send him to jail so he wouldn't have to pay the fine. In his case, it was better for him to go to jail because he could not afford the amount of money. I'm curious if at least some of the cases in Ferguson are somewhat similar.
Some local governments around the country are actually billing you for time you spend in prison as well as legal fees, trial fees, and anything else they can saddle you with. It's a nasty situation and pretty horrifying, especially since so few affected individuals have the resources or understanding to effectively appeal the situation.
never heard of them charging for prison time. example?
legal fees? i assume you mean public defender fees, which is standard based on formulas designed to determine how much they can afford. if you are referring to prosecutor fees, example?
trial fees / court costs is standard.
at the end of the day though, taxes are paying for all of this. so, you are saying that its improper for the individual who caused the situation to pay more for wasted money they caused when the alternative is taking money from other civic programs (e.g., schools, roads, politicians' hush funds) to pay for it.
If you look in the Michigan cases here (from the ACLU so it's obviously extreme cases) you can see a woman who was charged a booking and pay-to-stay fee for the jail while awaiting sentencing.
It's standard to assess fees and reasonable in the vast amount of cases.
But it's asinine for the state to assess fees and throw people in jail when they fail to pay when they know the people would fail to pay ahead of time. It doesn't save the justice system any money at all. How does the state benefit from spending $700 jailing a homeless man for failure to pay a $400 fine?
I mean, if they can't pay, you need to either give them another option or have them serve the jailtime in the first place, it's a waste of your time and money to do anything else.
Holder also said President Barack Obama's task force on policing will issue guidelines to address jailing citizens who owe money to the city, a practice used in Ferguson. But he noted that the federal government does not have the authority to demand such a change of local governments.
This is actually interesting. I had a friend who owed my local county court a semi-large amount of fines for stuff that he did breaking the law. While in court he told the judge he didn't think he would be able to pay the full amount by the deadline and asked if there was some sort of payment option or if he could push the deadline back further or anything else he could do. The judge told him he could spend time in jail to offset some (or all) of the fine depending on how long he went. Apparently the county made money off of him being incarcerated so he ended up asking the judge (who gave him the idea and complied) to send him to jail so he wouldn't have to pay the fine. In his case, it was better for him to go to jail because he could not afford the amount of money. I'm curious if at least some of the cases in Ferguson are somewhat similar.
Some local governments around the country are actually billing you for time you spend in prison as well as legal fees, trial fees, and anything else they can saddle you with. It's a nasty situation and pretty horrifying, especially since so few affected individuals have the resources or understanding to effectively appeal the situation.
never heard of them charging for prison time. example?
legal fees? i assume you mean public defender fees, which is standard based on formulas designed to determine how much they can afford. if you are referring to prosecutor fees, example?
trial fees / court costs is standard.
at the end of the day though, taxes are paying for all of this. so, you are saying that its improper for the individual who caused the situation to pay more for wasted money they caused when the alternative is taking money from other civic programs (e.g., schools, roads, politicians' hush funds) to pay for it.
You are using causation in a very particular sense here. "Participation" is the more apt word. That it takes away from the force of your conclusion is the sad reality. To say that the poor man who was stopped and frisked "caused" the court costs is to ignore the selection process, starts at least back at the policeman who, in his nearly boundless discretion, decided to stop the poor man. To talk about "causes" we probably should go all the way back to the man's birth, which he did not cause.
the fuck? if he is found guilty, it means he committed a crime, and the criminal case would not have been required unless he committed the crime. i doubt innocent people are asked to pay court costs, prison time, etc.
Holder also said President Barack Obama's task force on policing will issue guidelines to address jailing citizens who owe money to the city, a practice used in Ferguson. But he noted that the federal government does not have the authority to demand such a change of local governments.
This is actually interesting. I had a friend who owed my local county court a semi-large amount of fines for stuff that he did breaking the law. While in court he told the judge he didn't think he would be able to pay the full amount by the deadline and asked if there was some sort of payment option or if he could push the deadline back further or anything else he could do. The judge told him he could spend time in jail to offset some (or all) of the fine depending on how long he went. Apparently the county made money off of him being incarcerated so he ended up asking the judge (who gave him the idea and complied) to send him to jail so he wouldn't have to pay the fine. In his case, it was better for him to go to jail because he could not afford the amount of money. I'm curious if at least some of the cases in Ferguson are somewhat similar.
Some local governments around the country are actually billing you for time you spend in prison as well as legal fees, trial fees, and anything else they can saddle you with. It's a nasty situation and pretty horrifying, especially since so few affected individuals have the resources or understanding to effectively appeal the situation.
never heard of them charging for prison time. example?
legal fees? i assume you mean public defender fees, which is standard based on formulas designed to determine how much they can afford. if you are referring to prosecutor fees, example?
trial fees / court costs is standard.
at the end of the day though, taxes are paying for all of this. so, you are saying that its improper for the individual who caused the situation to pay more for wasted money they caused when the alternative is taking money from other civic programs (e.g., schools, roads, politicians' hush funds) to pay for it.
If you look in the Michigan cases here (from the ACLU so it's obviously extreme cases) you can see a woman who was charged a booking and pay-to-stay fee for the jail while awaiting sentencing.
It's standard to assess fees and reasonable in the vast amount of cases.
But it's asinine for the state to assess fees and throw people in jail when they fail to pay when they know the people would fail to pay ahead of time. It doesn't save the justice system any money at all. How does the state benefit from spending $700 jailing a homeless man for failure to pay a $400 fine?
I mean, if they can't pay, you need to either give them another option or have them serve the jailtime in the first place, it's a waste of your time and money to do anything else.
It's easy when the state makes $1,500 through taxes and federal stuff for jailing that person.
That was the whole point of the story of what happened with my friend. The county jail made more than it took to jail him through state/federal stuff.
Holder also said President Barack Obama's task force on policing will issue guidelines to address jailing citizens who owe money to the city, a practice used in Ferguson. But he noted that the federal government does not have the authority to demand such a change of local governments.
This is actually interesting. I had a friend who owed my local county court a semi-large amount of fines for stuff that he did breaking the law. While in court he told the judge he didn't think he would be able to pay the full amount by the deadline and asked if there was some sort of payment option or if he could push the deadline back further or anything else he could do. The judge told him he could spend time in jail to offset some (or all) of the fine depending on how long he went. Apparently the county made money off of him being incarcerated so he ended up asking the judge (who gave him the idea and complied) to send him to jail so he wouldn't have to pay the fine. In his case, it was better for him to go to jail because he could not afford the amount of money. I'm curious if at least some of the cases in Ferguson are somewhat similar.
Some local governments around the country are actually billing you for time you spend in prison as well as legal fees, trial fees, and anything else they can saddle you with. It's a nasty situation and pretty horrifying, especially since so few affected individuals have the resources or understanding to effectively appeal the situation.
never heard of them charging for prison time. example?
legal fees? i assume you mean public defender fees, which is standard based on formulas designed to determine how much they can afford. if you are referring to prosecutor fees, example?
trial fees / court costs is standard.
at the end of the day though, taxes are paying for all of this. so, you are saying that its improper for the individual who caused the situation to pay more for wasted money they caused when the alternative is taking money from other civic programs (e.g., schools, roads, politicians' hush funds) to pay for it.
You are using causation in a very particular sense here. "Participation" is the more apt word. That it takes away from the force of your conclusion is the sad reality. To say that the poor man who was stopped and frisked "caused" the court costs is to ignore the selection process, starts at least back at the policeman who, in his nearly boundless discretion, decided to stop the poor man. To talk about "causes" we probably should go all the way back to the man's birth, which he did not cause.
the fuck? if he is found guilty, it means he committed a crime, and the criminal case would not have been required unless he committed the crime. i doubt innocent people are asked to pay court costs, prison time, etc.
Haha you're cute : ) You should do some reading on the US criminal justice system.
Holder also said President Barack Obama's task force on policing will issue guidelines to address jailing citizens who owe money to the city, a practice used in Ferguson. But he noted that the federal government does not have the authority to demand such a change of local governments.
This is actually interesting. I had a friend who owed my local county court a semi-large amount of fines for stuff that he did breaking the law. While in court he told the judge he didn't think he would be able to pay the full amount by the deadline and asked if there was some sort of payment option or if he could push the deadline back further or anything else he could do. The judge told him he could spend time in jail to offset some (or all) of the fine depending on how long he went. Apparently the county made money off of him being incarcerated so he ended up asking the judge (who gave him the idea and complied) to send him to jail so he wouldn't have to pay the fine. In his case, it was better for him to go to jail because he could not afford the amount of money. I'm curious if at least some of the cases in Ferguson are somewhat similar.
Some local governments around the country are actually billing you for time you spend in prison as well as legal fees, trial fees, and anything else they can saddle you with. It's a nasty situation and pretty horrifying, especially since so few affected individuals have the resources or understanding to effectively appeal the situation.
never heard of them charging for prison time. example?
legal fees? i assume you mean public defender fees, which is standard based on formulas designed to determine how much they can afford. if you are referring to prosecutor fees, example?
trial fees / court costs is standard.
at the end of the day though, taxes are paying for all of this. so, you are saying that its improper for the individual who caused the situation to pay more for wasted money they caused when the alternative is taking money from other civic programs (e.g., schools, roads, politicians' hush funds) to pay for it.
You are using causation in a very particular sense here. "Participation" is the more apt word. That it takes away from the force of your conclusion is the sad reality. To say that the poor man who was stopped and frisked "caused" the court costs is to ignore the selection process, starts at least back at the policeman who, in his nearly boundless discretion, decided to stop the poor man. To talk about "causes" we probably should go all the way back to the man's birth, which he did not cause.
the fuck? if he is found guilty, it means he committed a crime, and the criminal case would not have been required unless he committed the crime. i doubt innocent people are asked to pay court costs, prison time, etc.
Haha you're cute : ) You should do some reading on the US criminal justice system.
not as cute as you for telling an american lawyer who practiced criminal law in San Francisco that he needs to do reading on the US criminal justice system. chu.
Holder also said President Barack Obama's task force on policing will issue guidelines to address jailing citizens who owe money to the city, a practice used in Ferguson. But he noted that the federal government does not have the authority to demand such a change of local governments.
This is actually interesting. I had a friend who owed my local county court a semi-large amount of fines for stuff that he did breaking the law. While in court he told the judge he didn't think he would be able to pay the full amount by the deadline and asked if there was some sort of payment option or if he could push the deadline back further or anything else he could do. The judge told him he could spend time in jail to offset some (or all) of the fine depending on how long he went. Apparently the county made money off of him being incarcerated so he ended up asking the judge (who gave him the idea and complied) to send him to jail so he wouldn't have to pay the fine. In his case, it was better for him to go to jail because he could not afford the amount of money. I'm curious if at least some of the cases in Ferguson are somewhat similar.
Some local governments around the country are actually billing you for time you spend in prison as well as legal fees, trial fees, and anything else they can saddle you with. It's a nasty situation and pretty horrifying, especially since so few affected individuals have the resources or understanding to effectively appeal the situation.
never heard of them charging for prison time. example?
legal fees? i assume you mean public defender fees, which is standard based on formulas designed to determine how much they can afford. if you are referring to prosecutor fees, example?
trial fees / court costs is standard.
at the end of the day though, taxes are paying for all of this. so, you are saying that its improper for the individual who caused the situation to pay more for wasted money they caused when the alternative is taking money from other civic programs (e.g., schools, roads, politicians' hush funds) to pay for it.
You are using causation in a very particular sense here. "Participation" is the more apt word. That it takes away from the force of your conclusion is the sad reality. To say that the poor man who was stopped and frisked "caused" the court costs is to ignore the selection process, starts at least back at the policeman who, in his nearly boundless discretion, decided to stop the poor man. To talk about "causes" we probably should go all the way back to the man's birth, which he did not cause.
the fuck? if he is found guilty, it means he committed a crime, and the criminal case would not have been required unless he committed the crime. i doubt innocent people are asked to pay court costs, prison time, etc.
Haha you're cute : ) You should do some reading on the US criminal justice system.
not as cute as you for telling an american lawyer who practiced criminal law in San Francisco that he needs to do reading on the US criminal justice system. chu.
I'm an American lawyer who has practiced criminal law as well, and innocent people pay fines/go to jail all the time. There's no possible way you can be an attorney and not be aware of that... I've personally represented innocent clients who plead guilty to get a fine, to avoid months in jail if they lose a trial. It happens all the time. Christ just read the Ferguson report.
Holder also said President Barack Obama's task force on policing will issue guidelines to address jailing citizens who owe money to the city, a practice used in Ferguson. But he noted that the federal government does not have the authority to demand such a change of local governments.
This is actually interesting. I had a friend who owed my local county court a semi-large amount of fines for stuff that he did breaking the law. While in court he told the judge he didn't think he would be able to pay the full amount by the deadline and asked if there was some sort of payment option or if he could push the deadline back further or anything else he could do. The judge told him he could spend time in jail to offset some (or all) of the fine depending on how long he went. Apparently the county made money off of him being incarcerated so he ended up asking the judge (who gave him the idea and complied) to send him to jail so he wouldn't have to pay the fine. In his case, it was better for him to go to jail because he could not afford the amount of money. I'm curious if at least some of the cases in Ferguson are somewhat similar.
Some local governments around the country are actually billing you for time you spend in prison as well as legal fees, trial fees, and anything else they can saddle you with. It's a nasty situation and pretty horrifying, especially since so few affected individuals have the resources or understanding to effectively appeal the situation.
never heard of them charging for prison time. example?
legal fees? i assume you mean public defender fees, which is standard based on formulas designed to determine how much they can afford. if you are referring to prosecutor fees, example?
trial fees / court costs is standard.
at the end of the day though, taxes are paying for all of this. so, you are saying that its improper for the individual who caused the situation to pay more for wasted money they caused when the alternative is taking money from other civic programs (e.g., schools, roads, politicians' hush funds) to pay for it.
You are using causation in a very particular sense here. "Participation" is the more apt word. That it takes away from the force of your conclusion is the sad reality. To say that the poor man who was stopped and frisked "caused" the court costs is to ignore the selection process, starts at least back at the policeman who, in his nearly boundless discretion, decided to stop the poor man. To talk about "causes" we probably should go all the way back to the man's birth, which he did not cause.
the fuck? if he is found guilty, it means he committed a crime, and the criminal case would not have been required unless he committed the crime. i doubt innocent people are asked to pay court costs, prison time, etc.
Haha you're cute : ) You should do some reading on the US criminal justice system.
not as cute as you for telling an american lawyer who practiced criminal law in San Francisco that he needs to do reading on the US criminal justice system. chu.
I'm an American lawyer who has practiced criminal law as well, and innocent people pay fines/go to jail all the time. There's no possible way you can be an attorney and not be aware of that... I've personally represented innocent clients who plead guilty to get a fine, to avoid months in jail if they lose a trial. It happens all the time. Christ just read the Ferguson report.
Ahem, I'm not a lawyer, and I'm fairly ignorant of the law, but I'd have to say you're a pretty shitty lawyer if your clients are innocent and you let them plead guilty.
Holder also said President Barack Obama's task force on policing will issue guidelines to address jailing citizens who owe money to the city, a practice used in Ferguson. But he noted that the federal government does not have the authority to demand such a change of local governments.
This is actually interesting. I had a friend who owed my local county court a semi-large amount of fines for stuff that he did breaking the law. While in court he told the judge he didn't think he would be able to pay the full amount by the deadline and asked if there was some sort of payment option or if he could push the deadline back further or anything else he could do. The judge told him he could spend time in jail to offset some (or all) of the fine depending on how long he went. Apparently the county made money off of him being incarcerated so he ended up asking the judge (who gave him the idea and complied) to send him to jail so he wouldn't have to pay the fine. In his case, it was better for him to go to jail because he could not afford the amount of money. I'm curious if at least some of the cases in Ferguson are somewhat similar.
Some local governments around the country are actually billing you for time you spend in prison as well as legal fees, trial fees, and anything else they can saddle you with. It's a nasty situation and pretty horrifying, especially since so few affected individuals have the resources or understanding to effectively appeal the situation.
never heard of them charging for prison time. example?
legal fees? i assume you mean public defender fees, which is standard based on formulas designed to determine how much they can afford. if you are referring to prosecutor fees, example?
trial fees / court costs is standard.
at the end of the day though, taxes are paying for all of this. so, you are saying that its improper for the individual who caused the situation to pay more for wasted money they caused when the alternative is taking money from other civic programs (e.g., schools, roads, politicians' hush funds) to pay for it.
You are using causation in a very particular sense here. "Participation" is the more apt word. That it takes away from the force of your conclusion is the sad reality. To say that the poor man who was stopped and frisked "caused" the court costs is to ignore the selection process, starts at least back at the policeman who, in his nearly boundless discretion, decided to stop the poor man. To talk about "causes" we probably should go all the way back to the man's birth, which he did not cause.
the fuck? if he is found guilty, it means he committed a crime, and the criminal case would not have been required unless he committed the crime. i doubt innocent people are asked to pay court costs, prison time, etc.
Haha you're cute : ) You should do some reading on the US criminal justice system.
not as cute as you for telling an american lawyer who practiced criminal law in San Francisco that he needs to do reading on the US criminal justice system. chu.
I'm an American lawyer who has practiced criminal law as well, and innocent people pay fines/go to jail all the time. There's no possible way you can be an attorney and not be aware of that... I've personally represented innocent clients who plead guilty to get a fine, to avoid months in jail if they lose a trial. It happens all the time. Christ just read the Ferguson report.
let me restate so you dont miss the point. people who are convicted of crimes or the equivalent (people pleading out) pay court costs, etc. people who are found not guilty of a crime do not pay court costs, etc. if you plead out, you are guilty, not "innocent," under the law.
This is actually interesting. I had a friend who owed my local county court a semi-large amount of fines for stuff that he did breaking the law. While in court he told the judge he didn't think he would be able to pay the full amount by the deadline and asked if there was some sort of payment option or if he could push the deadline back further or anything else he could do. The judge told him he could spend time in jail to offset some (or all) of the fine depending on how long he went. Apparently the county made money off of him being incarcerated so he ended up asking the judge (who gave him the idea and complied) to send him to jail so he wouldn't have to pay the fine. In his case, it was better for him to go to jail because he could not afford the amount of money. I'm curious if at least some of the cases in Ferguson are somewhat similar.
Some local governments around the country are actually billing you for time you spend in prison as well as legal fees, trial fees, and anything else they can saddle you with. It's a nasty situation and pretty horrifying, especially since so few affected individuals have the resources or understanding to effectively appeal the situation.
never heard of them charging for prison time. example?
legal fees? i assume you mean public defender fees, which is standard based on formulas designed to determine how much they can afford. if you are referring to prosecutor fees, example?
trial fees / court costs is standard.
at the end of the day though, taxes are paying for all of this. so, you are saying that its improper for the individual who caused the situation to pay more for wasted money they caused when the alternative is taking money from other civic programs (e.g., schools, roads, politicians' hush funds) to pay for it.
You are using causation in a very particular sense here. "Participation" is the more apt word. That it takes away from the force of your conclusion is the sad reality. To say that the poor man who was stopped and frisked "caused" the court costs is to ignore the selection process, starts at least back at the policeman who, in his nearly boundless discretion, decided to stop the poor man. To talk about "causes" we probably should go all the way back to the man's birth, which he did not cause.
the fuck? if he is found guilty, it means he committed a crime, and the criminal case would not have been required unless he committed the crime. i doubt innocent people are asked to pay court costs, prison time, etc.
Haha you're cute : ) You should do some reading on the US criminal justice system.
not as cute as you for telling an american lawyer who practiced criminal law in San Francisco that he needs to do reading on the US criminal justice system. chu.
I'm an American lawyer who has practiced criminal law as well, and innocent people pay fines/go to jail all the time. There's no possible way you can be an attorney and not be aware of that... I've personally represented innocent clients who plead guilty to get a fine, to avoid months in jail if they lose a trial. It happens all the time. Christ just read the Ferguson report.
Ahem, I'm not a lawyer, and I'm fairly ignorant of the law, but I'd have to say you're a pretty shitty lawyer if your clients are innocent and you let them plead guilty.
this is not true at all. most people plead out because it makes sense for any number of reasons.
This is actually interesting. I had a friend who owed my local county court a semi-large amount of fines for stuff that he did breaking the law. While in court he told the judge he didn't think he would be able to pay the full amount by the deadline and asked if there was some sort of payment option or if he could push the deadline back further or anything else he could do. The judge told him he could spend time in jail to offset some (or all) of the fine depending on how long he went. Apparently the county made money off of him being incarcerated so he ended up asking the judge (who gave him the idea and complied) to send him to jail so he wouldn't have to pay the fine. In his case, it was better for him to go to jail because he could not afford the amount of money. I'm curious if at least some of the cases in Ferguson are somewhat similar.
Some local governments around the country are actually billing you for time you spend in prison as well as legal fees, trial fees, and anything else they can saddle you with. It's a nasty situation and pretty horrifying, especially since so few affected individuals have the resources or understanding to effectively appeal the situation.
never heard of them charging for prison time. example?
legal fees? i assume you mean public defender fees, which is standard based on formulas designed to determine how much they can afford. if you are referring to prosecutor fees, example?
trial fees / court costs is standard.
at the end of the day though, taxes are paying for all of this. so, you are saying that its improper for the individual who caused the situation to pay more for wasted money they caused when the alternative is taking money from other civic programs (e.g., schools, roads, politicians' hush funds) to pay for it.
You are using causation in a very particular sense here. "Participation" is the more apt word. That it takes away from the force of your conclusion is the sad reality. To say that the poor man who was stopped and frisked "caused" the court costs is to ignore the selection process, starts at least back at the policeman who, in his nearly boundless discretion, decided to stop the poor man. To talk about "causes" we probably should go all the way back to the man's birth, which he did not cause.
the fuck? if he is found guilty, it means he committed a crime, and the criminal case would not have been required unless he committed the crime. i doubt innocent people are asked to pay court costs, prison time, etc.
Haha you're cute : ) You should do some reading on the US criminal justice system.
not as cute as you for telling an american lawyer who practiced criminal law in San Francisco that he needs to do reading on the US criminal justice system. chu.
I'm an American lawyer who has practiced criminal law as well, and innocent people pay fines/go to jail all the time. There's no possible way you can be an attorney and not be aware of that... I've personally represented innocent clients who plead guilty to get a fine, to avoid months in jail if they lose a trial. It happens all the time. Christ just read the Ferguson report.
let me restate so you dont miss the point. people who are convicted of crimes or the equivalent (people pleading out) pay court costs, etc. people who are found not guilty of a crime do not pay court costs, etc. if you plead out, you are guilty, not "innocent," under the law.
This is actually interesting. I had a friend who owed my local county court a semi-large amount of fines for stuff that he did breaking the law. While in court he told the judge he didn't think he would be able to pay the full amount by the deadline and asked if there was some sort of payment option or if he could push the deadline back further or anything else he could do. The judge told him he could spend time in jail to offset some (or all) of the fine depending on how long he went. Apparently the county made money off of him being incarcerated so he ended up asking the judge (who gave him the idea and complied) to send him to jail so he wouldn't have to pay the fine. In his case, it was better for him to go to jail because he could not afford the amount of money. I'm curious if at least some of the cases in Ferguson are somewhat similar.
Some local governments around the country are actually billing you for time you spend in prison as well as legal fees, trial fees, and anything else they can saddle you with. It's a nasty situation and pretty horrifying, especially since so few affected individuals have the resources or understanding to effectively appeal the situation.
never heard of them charging for prison time. example?
legal fees? i assume you mean public defender fees, which is standard based on formulas designed to determine how much they can afford. if you are referring to prosecutor fees, example?
trial fees / court costs is standard.
at the end of the day though, taxes are paying for all of this. so, you are saying that its improper for the individual who caused the situation to pay more for wasted money they caused when the alternative is taking money from other civic programs (e.g., schools, roads, politicians' hush funds) to pay for it.
You are using causation in a very particular sense here. "Participation" is the more apt word. That it takes away from the force of your conclusion is the sad reality. To say that the poor man who was stopped and frisked "caused" the court costs is to ignore the selection process, starts at least back at the policeman who, in his nearly boundless discretion, decided to stop the poor man. To talk about "causes" we probably should go all the way back to the man's birth, which he did not cause.
the fuck? if he is found guilty, it means he committed a crime, and the criminal case would not have been required unless he committed the crime. i doubt innocent people are asked to pay court costs, prison time, etc.
Haha you're cute : ) You should do some reading on the US criminal justice system.
not as cute as you for telling an american lawyer who practiced criminal law in San Francisco that he needs to do reading on the US criminal justice system. chu.
I'm an American lawyer who has practiced criminal law as well, and innocent people pay fines/go to jail all the time. There's no possible way you can be an attorney and not be aware of that... I've personally represented innocent clients who plead guilty to get a fine, to avoid months in jail if they lose a trial. It happens all the time. Christ just read the Ferguson report.
Ahem, I'm not a lawyer, and I'm fairly ignorant of the law, but I'd have to say you're a pretty shitty lawyer if your clients are innocent and you let them plead guilty.
this is not true at all. most people plead out because it makes sense for any number of reasons.
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