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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-06 06:13:11
February 06 2015 05:05 GMT
#32521
Did they have evidence back in 1915 that the then-current trend of increasing population and constant growth would not continue? I don't have to provide evidence, the burden is on you to prove that we should be concerned about a future in 2115 where there won't be any young people left at all.

As for the less and less need for workers if you want to talk about technological disruptions to the status quo and the need for a baseline guaranteed wage then we can talk about that. But the assumptions about the Social Security discussion are that it's broken because it won't be able to pay everything that is owed to everyone sometimes in the 2030's, that is, 25 or 30 years from now. If you want to talk about tangents, we can discuss tangents, but please understand that you can't say things like, "Social Security is broken and needs fixing. It is the consummate example of why entitlements grow completely out of hand and bankrupt us," while in the same breath turning around and saying that within the next century or two demographics and technology and a whole bunch of other things are going to radically disrupt our current economic mode of production and so Social Security is doomed on that longer timeline. Like I said, the burden is on you here to prove that raising the cap on social security payments won't extend the solvency of Social Security to a significant degree, not on me to prove that Social Security can continue working forever until the Earth cools into a dead rock.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
February 06 2015 05:07 GMT
#32522
On February 06 2015 13:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
Wonder who it was that pushed to have supplements be unregulated...?

Show nested quote +
The New York State attorney general’s office accused four major retailers on Monday of selling fraudulent and potentially dangerous herbal supplements and demanded that they remove the products from their shelves.

The authorities said they had conducted tests on top-selling store brands of herbal supplements at four national retailers — GNC, Target, Walgreens and Walmart — and found that four out of five of the products did not contain any of the herbs on their labels. The tests showed that pills labeled medicinal herbs often contained little more than cheap fillers like powdered rice, asparagus and houseplants, and in some cases substances that could be dangerous to those with allergies.

The investigation came as a welcome surprise to health experts who have long complained about the quality and safety of dietary supplements, which are exempt from the strict regulatory oversight applied to prescription drugs.

The Food and Drug Administration has targeted individual supplements found to contain dangerous ingredients. But the announcement Monday was the first time that a law enforcement agency had threatened the biggest retail and drugstore chains with legal action for selling what it said were deliberately misleading herbal products.


Source


I want to know what brand of supplements those were. The only regulation the supplements industry needs is truth in labeling and harsh penalties for those who lie. No need for some kind of FDA approval scheme or anything.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23162 Posts
February 06 2015 05:12 GMT
#32523
On February 06 2015 14:07 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 06 2015 13:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
Wonder who it was that pushed to have supplements be unregulated...?

The New York State attorney general’s office accused four major retailers on Monday of selling fraudulent and potentially dangerous herbal supplements and demanded that they remove the products from their shelves.

The authorities said they had conducted tests on top-selling store brands of herbal supplements at four national retailers — GNC, Target, Walgreens and Walmart — and found that four out of five of the products did not contain any of the herbs on their labels. The tests showed that pills labeled medicinal herbs often contained little more than cheap fillers like powdered rice, asparagus and houseplants, and in some cases substances that could be dangerous to those with allergies.

The investigation came as a welcome surprise to health experts who have long complained about the quality and safety of dietary supplements, which are exempt from the strict regulatory oversight applied to prescription drugs.

The Food and Drug Administration has targeted individual supplements found to contain dangerous ingredients. But the announcement Monday was the first time that a law enforcement agency had threatened the biggest retail and drugstore chains with legal action for selling what it said were deliberately misleading herbal products.


Source


I want to know what brand of supplements those were. The only regulation the supplements industry needs is truth in labeling and harsh penalties for those who lie. No need for some kind of FDA approval scheme or anything.



They were the "Store Brands". Labeling aka "burdensome government regulation".
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-06 06:34:19
February 06 2015 06:33 GMT
#32524
On February 06 2015 14:07 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 06 2015 13:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
Wonder who it was that pushed to have supplements be unregulated...?

The New York State attorney general’s office accused four major retailers on Monday of selling fraudulent and potentially dangerous herbal supplements and demanded that they remove the products from their shelves.

The authorities said they had conducted tests on top-selling store brands of herbal supplements at four national retailers — GNC, Target, Walgreens and Walmart — and found that four out of five of the products did not contain any of the herbs on their labels. The tests showed that pills labeled medicinal herbs often contained little more than cheap fillers like powdered rice, asparagus and houseplants, and in some cases substances that could be dangerous to those with allergies.

The investigation came as a welcome surprise to health experts who have long complained about the quality and safety of dietary supplements, which are exempt from the strict regulatory oversight applied to prescription drugs.

The Food and Drug Administration has targeted individual supplements found to contain dangerous ingredients. But the announcement Monday was the first time that a law enforcement agency had threatened the biggest retail and drugstore chains with legal action for selling what it said were deliberately misleading herbal products.


Source


I want to know what brand of supplements those were. The only regulation the supplements industry needs is truth in labeling and harsh penalties for those who lie. No need for some kind of FDA approval scheme or anything.


How on earth can you possibly guarantee truth in labeling without the government forcing/compelling manufacturers to allow the contents of their products to be evaluated a.k.a. approval?

USP can verify contents, but they have no power to make anyone let them test their products.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
February 06 2015 07:18 GMT
#32525
Buy it and test it? What do you mean? How do they forbid testing?
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
February 06 2015 07:19 GMT
#32526
lol these supplements are for the fad diet crowd. who gives a fuck let them waste their money
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
February 06 2015 07:22 GMT
#32527
That's a silly sentiment. A consumer should have the right to know what is being sold to him.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-06 07:31:40
February 06 2015 07:23 GMT
#32528
but it's okay to market ineffective bullshit. this is just a very tiny step away from homeopathy stuff whcih is catering to the same consumers. they may not test out the components but the manufacturer can claimi they really did have some pomegranade seeds somewhere in the process.

the true scandal here is not how much of the muh natural fruity skin these pills have but it is a legit and booming industry. a lot of money is made on spreading fads and bullshit.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
February 06 2015 07:46 GMT
#32529
1) who knows what is effective and what is not when people aren't even taking the real thing
2) if i want to buy some herbal supplement i should be able to, and the producer should be giving me exactly what he says he is, most labels have something to indicate potency or whatever
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23162 Posts
February 06 2015 08:13 GMT
#32530
Yeah like the Ginseng one. I don't expect miracles from ginseng, but I also expect not to be getting sold garlic and rice, or whatever it was.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-06 08:51:16
February 06 2015 08:41 GMT
#32531
meh. honesty in labeling when you've convinced people that [fruity supplement] isn't just vitamin c is a complete waste of govt resources


ok i guess this is not really fair,

there are two kinds of these supplements, ones that have tehir effective ingredient and dose listed, and ones that are just vague 'natural [herb or fruit] inside!'

the former has a claim that is testable and the latter is just wholesale marketing in a pill. how are you going to establish standards for content and preparation when the product you are dealing with works because it avoids all of that messy stuff? it's like trying to ensure homeopathy medicine have 0.00001 ppm of what they claim to have. please
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
February 06 2015 09:04 GMT
#32532
Who fucking cares if it works. That is specifically what I was trying to avoid. All I care is that it has in it what it says it has in it. Not that it says "will make you a sex god." I want it to have ginko in the prescribed quantity if it says it has ginko in the prescribed quantity. This is precisely why I said at the beginning it's idiotic to have the FDA regulate supplements like they do for drugs. Testing for efficacy will never work. But truth in ingredient labeling is achievable and desirable.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11481 Posts
February 06 2015 09:56 GMT
#32533
On February 06 2015 18:04 IgnE wrote:
Who fucking cares if it works. That is specifically what I was trying to avoid. All I care is that it has in it what it says it has in it. Not that it says "will make you a sex god." I want it to have ginko in the prescribed quantity if it says it has ginko in the prescribed quantity. This is precisely why I said at the beginning it's idiotic to have the FDA regulate supplements like they do for drugs. Testing for efficacy will never work. But truth in ingredient labeling is achievable and desirable.


Indeed. Just because you think this special case is silly and herbal supplements are generally useless crap, it does not mean that you should EVER be allowed to lie to your customers. If i buy something that say "30% corn, 5% apple, 3% whatever etc...", than exactly that and ONLY that should be what is in it. It does not matter what it is i buy. Everything should be labelled truthfully and accurately. I do not see how that is something you can even debate against.
coverpunch
Profile Joined December 2011
United States2093 Posts
February 06 2015 12:47 GMT
#32534
The worst part of the story IMO is this tidbit:

The attorney general’s investigation was prompted by an article in the New York Times in 2013 that raised questions about widespread labeling fraud in the supplement industry. The article referred to research at the University of Guelph in Canada that found that as many as a third of herbal supplements tested did not contain the plants listed on their labels — only cheap fillers instead.

It's not like this was a big surprise or anything. They had more than a year to, you know, put some actual ginseng in ginseng supplements. And that's after a New York Times story.

If you watched the documentary Bigger, Stronger, Faster from 2008, the guy also makes (or more accurately, hires a few illegal immigrant workers to make) exercise supplements using $15 worth of wheat powder, empty pill capsules, and some creatine. In retrospect to this article, the main person in the documentary is so naive that he actually puts creatine in his creatine supplements.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-06 15:17:03
February 06 2015 15:12 GMT
#32535
On February 06 2015 18:04 IgnE wrote:
Who fucking cares if it works. That is specifically what I was trying to avoid. All I care is that it has in it what it says it has in it. Not that it says "will make you a sex god." I want it to have ginko in the prescribed quantity if it says it has ginko in the prescribed quantity. This is precisely why I said at the beginning it's idiotic to have the FDA regulate supplements like they do for drugs. Testing for efficacy will never work. But truth in ingredient labeling is achievable and desirable.

they don't have to describe or display prescribed quantity. there is no specific dosage requirement.

there's a lot of 'this product contains A' without specifying how much or what kind.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23162 Posts
February 06 2015 17:44 GMT
#32536
Money, money, money, mooney, MOooonNNaaaYY!

Mitch McConnell, Rand Paul push legalizing hemp growth
It’s a states’ rights and economic growth issue, they argue.

Forget legalizing pot: Two of the most powerful Republicans in the Senate believe there’s a much stronger chance to legalize growing hemp in the U.S., opening up an entirely new market for crops, health food, oil, shirts, towels and even dog toys.

Kentucky’s Mitch McConnell, Rand Paul and Rep. Thomas Massie are pushing legislation in both chambers of Congress that would remove the less-potent member of the cannabis family from the federal list of controlled substances, allowing its return to America’s farmland after more than 40 years.

It’s a states’ rights and economic growth issue, the Republican lawmakers argue. Legalizing hemp would create jobs.

“People used to downplay the number of jobs industrial hemp might create and say, ‘Well it’s a few thousand jobs and a couple million in commerce,’” Massie said. But all told, legalizing the crop has the potential to create 10 times as many jobs “as the Keystone XL pipeline will create 10 years from now.”

Hemp legalization legislation has been considered in Congress since 2005, when then-Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) pushed the issue. But the current bills have champions in positions of power, including the Senate majority leader and a potential White House contender.

“It’s harder to get a majority of Republicans to sign on to industrial hemp than it is to get Democrats,” Massie said. “There’s a stigma attached to it, and Republicans don’t want to be seen as weak on the war on drugs.”

Hemp is a tough crop, well-suited for Kentucky’s climate and landscape, possibly even in the state’s mountainous eastern region, which lacks rich soil. And in a place where almost 20 percent of people live below the poverty line and employment opportunities in coal mining and tobacco are on the decline, the need for a robust new industry is critical.

Kentucky was the largest producer of hemp prior to the Civil War, according to the state’s department of agriculture, growing more than 90 percent of the entire U.S. crop. But production declined in the 1900s as the government moved to tax the crop due to its close association with marijuana.


Source
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-06 17:47:34
February 06 2015 17:46 GMT
#32537
Wow.

A senior Israeli official is now implying that House Speaker John Boehner led Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to believe that his invitation for the prime minister to speak before Congress in March was bipartisan, according to Reuters.

"It appears that the speaker of Congress made a move, in which we trusted, but which it ultimately became clear was a one sided move and not a move by both sides," Deputy Israeli Foreign Minister Tzachi Hanegbi said Friday on a Tel Aviv radio program, per the news outlet.

Then, via Reuters:

The interviewer asked if that meant Netanyahu had been "misled" into believing Boehner's invitation was bipartisan, a characterization Hanegbi did not contest.

Boehner's invitation for Netanyahu to speak on Iran, extended without consultation with the White House, has stirred partisan tensions. The White House called it a breach of diplomatic protocol. House Democrats have met with Israeli Ambassador Ron Dermer to register their displeasure, and some have said they will boycott the speech.

Nonetheless, Hanegbi indicated that Netanyahu would still make the March 3 speech, which also comes two weeks before Israeli elections. He said that the speech could still help secure the two-thirds vote needed to override President Obama's promised veto on any new sanctions on Iran.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
February 06 2015 17:49 GMT
#32538
On February 06 2015 13:59 Nyxisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 06 2015 13:13 dAPhREAk wrote:
getting rid of social security altogether is another workable solution if you are just going to ignore everything else. social security was never intended to be a rich people pay for poor people's retirements. all people who pay into it were supposed to receive a comparable benefit back.

ehh, yes that's kind of the definition of "social", else it's just retirement

it was originally just a retirement program. it has been substantially revised since its creation. also, the name is meaningless since it was named after a society and was originally called the Economic Security Act.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-06 17:56:24
February 06 2015 17:54 GMT
#32539
The Agriculture Department is getting ready to tell a lot of people who’ve been getting farm subsidy checks without lifting a hay bale, swinging a pitch fork or driving a tractor that they’re cut off.

Congress could’ve answered the question of “who is a farmer?” and thus eligible to get payments when it passed the Farm Bill a year ago, but it punted the matter to the USDA.

Wealthy executives, celebrities and others get subsidies even if they never set foot on a farm or don’t need the taxpayer-funded assistance. They include the likes of Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen and Commerce Secretary Penny Pritzker, according to an Environmental Working Group report.

USDA will soon issue its proposed rule for qualifying who is “actively engaged” in farming, making them eligible for some of the billions paid each year to farm families across the U.S. to support them in tough times when crop prices or farm revenues are low, Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack told POLITICO in an exclusive interview this week.

“The reality is that this has been a loophole that has been utilized by folks in [business] partnerships to allow for many, many, many people to qualify as actively engaged [in farming] when in fact they might only be engaged in a conference call or in a very narrow sense participating in decision-making in a farming operation,” Vilsack said. “We will close that loophole to the extent that we can.”

In 2013, the Government Accountability Office pointed to one common, troublesome practice: As much as $590 million was being paid in farm subsidies annually to so-called general partnerships, in which multiple individuals could claim to participate in the management of a single farm.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
February 06 2015 17:55 GMT
#32540
Watching Brian Williams go down in flames has been amusing to say the least. He should have just done a full mea culpa and come clean instead of covering up one lie with another (at least that's what it seems like right now). The interesting thing about this is that NBC News must have been complicit to one degree or another. Surely they knew the real story all along because there would have been additional crew with Williams at the time. I don't even understand the point of the lying about the story in the first place.

As a side note, I really liked Brian Williams when he was on MSNBC (back when MSNBC tried to be a real network).
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