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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
March 05 2013 01:05 GMT
#2901
On March 05 2013 09:20 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2013 09:16 Mindcrime wrote:
So the Republican solution to sequestration, which was intended to threaten both parties' sacred cows, is "hey hey, hands off our stuff"

what a shock

The sequester has already happened, what they're doing now is a reaction to that fact. If obama and dems go against this then they're bad and hate the military and vetrens. If they do go for it then the republicans were the ones that were able to bridge the gap between the parties.

Its just good politics.


I know it has begun; notice my use of past tense.

And no, I don't think it's good politics. The only group this plays well to is the talk radio-listening base that wasn't going anywhere anyway.
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-05 01:35:32
March 05 2013 01:20 GMT
#2902
On March 05 2013 09:16 Mindcrime wrote:
So the Republican solution to sequestration, which was intended to threaten both parties' sacred cows, is "hey hey, hands off our stuff"

what a shock

I think it's just politics. Obama was complaining about the military cuts last week and so Republicans are going to see if Democrats will bite at all on that point or if it was all just hot air.

Edit: I'm totally fine with the military cuts in total, so feel free to criticize R's for trying to remove those cuts. They do need to be re-prioritized though, just like everything in the sequester.
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24802 Posts
March 05 2013 14:49 GMT
#2903
The sequester has triggered this, which I'm not surprised about:

http://www.newsday.com/classifieds/jobs/northrop-grumman-to-move-850-jobs-off-long-island-1.4750479

My parents might be moving 1100 miles south >>
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-05 18:14:22
March 05 2013 18:09 GMT
#2904
Jeb Bush’s new tome, “Immigration Wars: Forging An American Solution,” hit bookstores on Tuesday and is already making waves in the immigration debate and 2016 sweepstakes alike.

Bush’s book, co-authored by Goldwater Institute director Clint Bolick, shares a lot in tone and style with other works by plausible presidential candidates. A lot of feel-good American rhetoric, inspiring anecdotes about average citizens, hat tips to popular causes in the party, and reminders of the author’s accomplishments in unrelated areas (in this case, education.) Its core parts are a framework for immigration reform and a political manifesto about GOP outreach to Latinos, both of which are hotly debated within the party and could be directly affected by Bush’s book. Here are some of the highlights:

Obamacare Is Bad Because Citizens Whose Parents Are Illegal Get Benefits

Here’s a surprise. Seemingly out of nowhere, Bush condemns the Affordable Care Act’s Medicaid expansion, recently accepted by his successor, Gov. Rick Scott (R-FL), for doling out “welfare” to the children of illegal immigrants.

“This is why the Obama administration’s attempt to coerce states to adopt a major Medicaid expansion as part of its national health-care program had the effect of inflaming anti-immigration sentiment,” he and co-author Clint Bolick write. “Although the administration assured the states that illegal immigrants would not be eligible for Medicaid benefits, their children who are born in the United States are eligible because they are citizens. Moreover, if illegal immigrants are offered a path to citizenship or permanent legal residency, eventually they will become eligible as well. Fortunately the US Supreme Court struck down the Medicaid expansion by a 7-2 vote as unduly coercive and therefore contrary to constitutional principles of federalism. The proposal should not be resurrected.”

What’s strange is that Bush isn’t even complaining about illegal immigrants getting Medicaid benefits, he’s complaining about American citizens who were born in the country whose parents are undocumented. But that has nothing to do with Obamacare: the president didn’t invent Medicaid and those kids were already free to apply, just as their citizenship lets them apply to myriad social programs. It is true, as Bush notes, that more of these children will be eligible for Medicaid benefits in states like Florida now. That’s because more Floridians in general will be eligible for Medicaid under the Obamacare expansion.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
March 05 2013 18:16 GMT
#2905
healthcare for kids. oh the horror
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
ACrow
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6583 Posts
March 05 2013 18:39 GMT
#2906
On March 06 2013 03:16 oneofthem wrote:
healthcare for kids. oh the horror

How unamerican. And even for kids whose parents were not citizens! Those pesky second-grade citizens. Shocking!
Reminds me of the Simpsons episode in which they try to expel all "non-native" Americans, haha.
Get off my lawn, young punks
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
March 05 2013 18:50 GMT
#2907
On March 06 2013 03:39 ACrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 06 2013 03:16 oneofthem wrote:
healthcare for kids. oh the horror

How unamerican. And even for kids whose parents were not citizens! Those pesky second-grade citizens. Shocking!
Reminds me of the Simpsons episode in which they try to expel all "non-native" Americans, haha.

What happens in Germany?
ACrow
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6583 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-05 19:24:51
March 05 2013 19:14 GMT
#2908
On March 06 2013 03:50 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 06 2013 03:39 ACrow wrote:
On March 06 2013 03:16 oneofthem wrote:
healthcare for kids. oh the horror

How unamerican. And even for kids whose parents were not citizens! Those pesky second-grade citizens. Shocking!
Reminds me of the Simpsons episode in which they try to expel all "non-native" Americans, haha.

What happens in Germany?

In which case specifically do you mean? Generally speaking, every citizen has to have health insurance; there are some rare exceptions in which you can fall through the net, but generally we have two kinds of insurance companies, private and public, of which the public ones have to accept everyone (again, there are some rare unlucky circumstances like you are a business owner that opts out of the public system to save money and later goes bankrupt, but even in that case his kids would have to be accepted by the public insurers, that way at least for kids it is insured that they have health coverage). With immigrants it gets complicated and I don't actually know much about the law in that case, and there didn't used to be a lot of immigration until the EU expanded eastwards recently, and even that is within limits and not comparable to US. Former Turkish immigrants from the sixties/seventies all usually have citizenship.

I didn't mean to gloat or poke fun at the problem from a distance btw, sorry if I came across as arrogant, I very well know that the topic of immigration doesn't have an easy solution. I just thought that Bush's stance was very hypocritical and that he is fishing for right wing votes with that - I mean a citizen is a citizen, no matter how you acquired your citizenship, right? Especially considering that almost all Americans have heritage roots somewhere else, I found it funny that he suggests to discriminate against some kids only because their parents immigrated more recently than his own grand-grand-grandparents or whatever.
Get off my lawn, young punks
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
March 05 2013 19:42 GMT
#2909
On March 06 2013 04:14 ACrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 06 2013 03:50 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On March 06 2013 03:39 ACrow wrote:
On March 06 2013 03:16 oneofthem wrote:
healthcare for kids. oh the horror

How unamerican. And even for kids whose parents were not citizens! Those pesky second-grade citizens. Shocking!
Reminds me of the Simpsons episode in which they try to expel all "non-native" Americans, haha.

What happens in Germany?

In which case specifically do you mean? Generally speaking, every citizen has to have health insurance; there are some rare exceptions in which you can fall through the net, but generally we have two kinds of insurance companies, private and public, of which the public ones have to accept everyone (again, there are some rare unlucky circumstances like you are a business owner that opts out of the public system to save money and later goes bankrupt, but even in that case his kids would have to be accepted by the public insurers, that way at least for kids it is insured that they have health coverage). With immigrants it gets complicated and I don't actually know much about the law in that case, and there didn't used to be a lot of immigration until the EU expanded eastwards recently, and even that is within limits and not comparable to US. Former Turkish immigrants from the sixties/seventies all usually have citizenship.

I didn't mean to gloat or poke fun at the problem from a distance btw, sorry if I came across as arrogant, I very well know that the topic of immigration doesn't have an easy solution. I just thought that Bush's stance was very hypocritical and that he is fishing for right wing votes with that - I mean a citizen is a citizen, no matter how you acquired your citizenship, right? Especially considering that almost all Americans have heritage roots somewhere else, I found it funny that he suggests to discriminate against some kids only because their parents immigrated more recently than his own grand-grand-grandparents or whatever.

Yes a citizen is a citizen. Because of that there's a perverse incentive for people to come to the US and give birth so their kinds can have benefits. So I'm a bit curious if countries in the EU have a better solution or if illegal immigration just isn't a big issue there.
ACrow
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6583 Posts
March 05 2013 19:59 GMT
#2910
On March 06 2013 04:42 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 06 2013 04:14 ACrow wrote:
On March 06 2013 03:50 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On March 06 2013 03:39 ACrow wrote:
On March 06 2013 03:16 oneofthem wrote:
healthcare for kids. oh the horror

How unamerican. And even for kids whose parents were not citizens! Those pesky second-grade citizens. Shocking!
Reminds me of the Simpsons episode in which they try to expel all "non-native" Americans, haha.

What happens in Germany?

In which case specifically do you mean? Generally speaking, every citizen has to have health insurance; there are some rare exceptions in which you can fall through the net, but generally we have two kinds of insurance companies, private and public, of which the public ones have to accept everyone (again, there are some rare unlucky circumstances like you are a business owner that opts out of the public system to save money and later goes bankrupt, but even in that case his kids would have to be accepted by the public insurers, that way at least for kids it is insured that they have health coverage). With immigrants it gets complicated and I don't actually know much about the law in that case, and there didn't used to be a lot of immigration until the EU expanded eastwards recently, and even that is within limits and not comparable to US. Former Turkish immigrants from the sixties/seventies all usually have citizenship.

I didn't mean to gloat or poke fun at the problem from a distance btw, sorry if I came across as arrogant, I very well know that the topic of immigration doesn't have an easy solution. I just thought that Bush's stance was very hypocritical and that he is fishing for right wing votes with that - I mean a citizen is a citizen, no matter how you acquired your citizenship, right? Especially considering that almost all Americans have heritage roots somewhere else, I found it funny that he suggests to discriminate against some kids only because their parents immigrated more recently than his own grand-grand-grandparents or whatever.

Yes a citizen is a citizen. Because of that there's a perverse incentive for people to come to the US and give birth so their kinds can have benefits. So I'm a bit curious if countries in the EU have a better solution or if illegal immigration just isn't a big issue there.

In Germany it's generally not a big problem yet and we do not have a ius soli: someone born here will not acquire German citizenship automatically, you inherit your parent's citizenship (an exception that was added just in the year 2000: if your parents have lived here more than 8 years and/or have an unlimited working permitand you were born in Germany, you can opt to acquire German citizenship).
Get off my lawn, young punks
rusedeguerre
Profile Blog Joined February 2013
121 Posts
March 05 2013 20:02 GMT
#2911
Oh, the horrible sequestration! The DEEP cuts which only amount to a decrease in the amount that spending is going to increase, since the government will have a bigger budget this year than the previous! Deep, painful, harsh cuts that will leave us with more spending. Let the fear mongering begin!


It would, according to the president on Tuesday, “jeopardize military readiness ... eviscerate job creating investments in education and energy and research ... emergency responders ... border agents ... FBI agents...federal prosecutors will have to close cases and let criminals go ... air traffic controllers and airport security will see cutbacks ... more delays at airports across the country ... thousands of teachers and educators will be laid off ... tens of thousands of parents will have to scramble to find child care ... hundreds of thousands will lose access to primary care and preventive care like flu vaccinations and cancer screenings,” and the list went on.



[image loading]


The media is doing their best to drum up the horrors and the chaos that results of taking a dime away from the federal government. Thousands are expected to die, children starve to death, police sit by while cities are looted and ransacked. The horrors.


"There’s a lot of posturing — ‘I’m going to lay off my employees today unless you do something. We’re going to close the hospitals down. We're going to take all the prisoners from jail and put them on the street. Spare me. I live in that world. I mean come on, let's get serious here."

-Michael Bloomberg



The government is doing their best to drum up the horrors as well. From Janet Napolitano blatantly lying about longer lines at the airports, to Barack Obama blatantly lying that the janitors where he is giving his speech are going to have their pay cut, which the Washington Post gave four pinocchio's.


The Pinocchio Test

Obama’s remarks continue the administration’s pattern of overstating the potential impact of the sequester, which we have explored this week. But this error is particularly bad--and nerve-wracking to the janitors and security guards who were misled by the president’s comments.

We originally thought this was maybe a Two Pinocchio rating, but in light of the AOC memo and the confirmation that security guards will not face a pay cut, nothing in Obama’s statement came close to being correct.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/sequester-spin-obamas-incorrect-claim-of-capitol-janitors-receiving-a-pay-cut/2013/03/01/3407535c-82a9-11e2-b99e-6baf4ebe42df_blog.html

Of course we all know how right-wing the Washington Post is.


Ms. Napolitano also cited Chicago’s O’Hare and Atlanta’s Hartfield-Jackson airports as suffering from security checkpoint lines that were “150 to 200 percent as long as we would normally expect” at a recent meeting to discuss sequester fallout.

The Telegraph reported Tuesday, however, that officials with these very same airports denied any longer lines or airline delays.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/mar/5/airports-janet-napolitano-youre-wrong-about-delays/


Oh, and sequestration will leave us more vulnerable to attack, yeah, that's the ticket!


Meanwhile government is trying to make the cuts as painful as possible. The only thing that can be cut in the multi-trillion dollar government budget is food for starving children, police, etc. They punish the American people, let's close Yosemite National Park this spring, one of the favorite national parks in the nation, that will show them. "This is what you get when you decrease the increase in our spending."


"It's so terrible, we don't even have any discretion in where the cuts take place!" Oh wait, that is another bald faced lie. And of course the media doesn't do much reporting on the fact that Republicans offered a bill giving the president more discretion in where the cuts take place, and the White House and Democrats rejected it. Because obviously the White House wants to use the cuts as a bat to swing against Republicans. Duh!


Today, Senate Republicans are pushing legislation that would hand Obama a scalpel rather than a meat cleaver. The Toomey-Inhofe alternative would give the president discretion to allocate the sequester’s cut largely as he sees fit.

The bottom line is that Republican bill makes the sequester easier to live with, and the White House doesn’t want the sequester to be easier to live with. The point of these poorly constructed spending cuts, in the White House’s view, is that they’re hard to live with, and that forces both sides to compromise. Making the sequester a bit better makes it much harder to replace.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/02/28/republicans-want-to-make-the-sequester-better-why-wont-obama-let-them/


Don't mind me, let the charade continue.
Some would say that hydrogen cyanide is a delicious and necessary part of the human diet, but others claim it is a toxic and dangerous substance. The truth must therefore be somewhere in between.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-05 20:12:39
March 05 2013 20:06 GMT
#2912
some of these budget outlays were already made ahead of time and altering them would cause some trauma, resulting in layoffs and so forth.

the problem with the republican proposal seems to be an expansion of executive power to make domestic cuts, but not military ones.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
March 05 2013 20:15 GMT
#2913
On March 06 2013 05:06 oneofthem wrote:
some of these budget outlays were already made ahead of time and altering them would cause some trauma, resulting in layoffs and so forth.

the problem with the republican proposal seems to be an expansion of executive power to make domestic cuts, but not military ones.

I thought the Rep proposal was for power over all cuts and the military fix was a separate bill?
HunterX11
Profile Joined March 2009
United States1048 Posts
March 05 2013 20:18 GMT
#2914
On March 06 2013 05:06 oneofthem wrote:
some of these budget outlays were already made ahead of time and altering them would cause some trauma, resulting in layoffs and so forth.

the problem with the republican proposal seems to be an expansion of executive power to make domestic cuts, but not military ones.


The point of the Republican proposal was to shift all the blame onto Obama, nothing more, nothing less. I mean really, does everyone believe that overnight the GOP decided they love the gay fascist socialist Muslim atheist Kenyan, and they just want to give him more power than he even asked for, but he demurred?
Try using both Irradiate and Defensive Matrix on an Overlord. It looks pretty neat.
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-05 20:20:02
March 05 2013 20:19 GMT
#2915
On March 06 2013 05:18 HunterX11 wrote:
they just want to give him more power than he even asked for, but he demurred?


sounds like some lupercalia shit to me
shikata ga nai
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-05 20:25:27
March 05 2013 20:20 GMT
#2916
On March 06 2013 05:15 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 06 2013 05:06 oneofthem wrote:
some of these budget outlays were already made ahead of time and altering them would cause some trauma, resulting in layoffs and so forth.

the problem with the republican proposal seems to be an expansion of executive power to make domestic cuts, but not military ones.

I thought the Rep proposal was for power over all cuts and the military fix was a separate bill?

the executive discretion is larger on the domestic side than it is on the military side.

from the wopo article

The White House argues that the Toomey-Inhofe bill doesn’t give it quite as much control as its proponents say. For instance, it gives the president the power to move cuts from defense spending over to domestic spending, but not to do the reverse. And within the defense cuts, there are limitations on the president’s authority. It forces him to largely abide by the spending decisions made in the National Defense Authorization Act — a limitation it doesn’t place on the domestic side. It also subjects whatever recommendations the White House does make to a congressional vote of disapproval.


it's quite the deviously ingenious move.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
rusedeguerre
Profile Blog Joined February 2013
121 Posts
March 05 2013 20:31 GMT
#2917
The point is that the president is rejecting something that would make sequestration less painful. Obviously the Republicans want to give the president more of the responsibility here, but that is a non-issue when we are talking about the president intentionally hurting the American public for political gain.
Some would say that hydrogen cyanide is a delicious and necessary part of the human diet, but others claim it is a toxic and dangerous substance. The truth must therefore be somewhere in between.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
March 05 2013 20:33 GMT
#2918
it's what we would usually call a bait. there's no reason why the entire thing can't be scrapped or made less painful in other ways
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7032 Posts
March 05 2013 20:49 GMT
#2919
Discussions about the military budget are always so funny, given that the only reasonable thing to do to the budget is to cut it in half (it's a start), but oh well. It's just posturing because the military still commands a great deal of respect and is almost beyond reproach, so they're all fighting over who can give the military more tanks they won't even use.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18869 Posts
March 05 2013 20:55 GMT
#2920
On March 06 2013 05:33 oneofthem wrote:
it's what we would usually call a bait. there's no reason why the entire thing can't be scrapped or made less painful in other ways

Like....oh I don't know.....getting rid of tax loopholes only the super rich can enjoy? Nahhhhhhhh
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
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