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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
„Wars help the economy“ is about as stupid as „Vandalism helps the economy“. Yes, someone will get to sell weapons or fix the broken glass but the „gain“ for society is inexistant. You sell stuff that never would have been needed, the work put in could have been used to produce something new that actually improves a place.
Its even more laughable when your goverment is actually paying… You are paying your wars with taxes. You might also just send your money to the weapon manufactures and soldier widows directly.
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On September 16 2014 10:04 xDaunt wrote: Fuck the world. dear lord.
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On September 16 2014 18:20 nunez wrote:dear lord. Not a big fan of context, are you? This is like what, the second time in a dozen pages you saw fit to quote three words out of a short response itself? Apparently international diplomacy should be formed and discussed in unexplained sound bites in your world. Fun outlook!
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On September 16 2014 14:27 Roswell wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2014 12:45 Leporello wrote:On September 16 2014 12:25 xDaunt wrote:On September 16 2014 12:17 Nyxisto wrote:On September 16 2014 12:12 xDaunt wrote:On September 16 2014 12:09 Nyxisto wrote:America has never acted more selfish regarding foreign policy as they do now, and they've also never had less success than they are having now. There is no historical basis for this "selfishness is rational" claim. Historically a good dose of moral principles has always worked wonders. Nations ultimately won't survive following a moral national policy. The necessities of war (among others) prohibit it. Americas liberation of Europe was a pretty moral war. If war happens as a last resort there's nothing immoral about it. How many innocents did the US slaughter during WW2? I don't really know, depends on what your definition of innocent is. I also don't know what you're getting at. There can be just wars that are messy and end up with a lot of dead civilians, and there can be unjust wars with little casualties. The point is this. War is a necessary tool of foreign policy. Successfully prosecuting a war requires immoral actions. Ergo, a state cannot reliably act morally and survive. That's just stupid. Nothing else to be said about it really. Maybe get your head out of whatever century it's in and into the 21st. Lots of states are surviving just fine without wars, or large armies. No one is going to invade Sweden just because they can. The Mongol Hordes have been vanquished. Even the evil Islamic terrorists can't do the damage that we've done to ourselves. With what we've spent on warfare since 9/11, we could've given every student in the US a free college education, given totally free healthcare to all uninsured, housed the homeless, fed the poor, etc. Since you've been an advocate for warfare at every step I've noticed, I guess you just have to keep going with it, because the alternative is admitting that you're just stupidly arrogant (hello!) and on the wrong side of humanity. I suppose that'd suck. On September 16 2014 12:04 xDaunt wrote: Funny enough, one is unlikely to find a more "moral" person than I am. Said every jerk that ever lived. Wars actually help the economy and all that jazz. But yes, because every year we arent at war everyone gets free college education and healthcare! Fuck it, costs a few billion a week, damn maybe we could give everyone like 200$ free walmart gift cards instead. Yeah the Iraq and afghan wars have done miracles for the economy.
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Oh Bobby Jindal how I've missed you:
Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal dodged three questions on Tuesday about whether he personally believes the theory of evolution explains the presence of complex life on Earth.
"The reality is I'm not an evolutionary biologist," the Republican governor and possible 2016 presidential hopeful told reporters at a breakfast hosted by the Christian Science Monitor.
"What I believe as a father and a husband is that local schools should make decisions on how they teach," he said. "And we can talk about Common Core and why I don't believe in a national curriculum. I think local school districts should make decisions about what should be taught in their classroom. I want my kids to be exposed to the best science, the best critical thinking..."
The reporter interrupted Jindal, a Rhodes scholar who studied biology and public policy at Brown University, to press him on the original question of whether he believes the theory of evolution reflects the best scientific thinking about life on Earth.
"I will tell you, as a father, I want my kids to be taught about evolution in their schools, but secondly, I think local school districts should make the decision," he said.
Pressed a third time on what he personally thinks, Jindal again sidestepped.
Source
Then there was this:
Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal paid a visit to Washington, D.C. this week to roll out his national energy policy blueprint.
At a breakfast for reporters Tuesday hosted by the Christian Science Monitor, the Republican governor attacked President Barack Obama for not fully taking advantage of the United States' fossil fuel and energy resources.
"The reality is right now we've got an administration in the Obama administration that are science deniers when it comes to harnessing America's energy resources and potential to create good-paying jobs for our economy and for our future," Jindal said. "Right now we've got an administration whose policies are holding our economy hostage."
The "science deniers" line of attack mirrors that of progressives against Republican lawmakers who don't accept the broad scientific consensus that climate change is real and man-made.
When asked for examples, Jindal cited the administration's resistance to approving the Keystone pipeline and recent rules to establish strict limits on pollution from coal-fired power plants.
Source
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On September 16 2014 23:21 heliusx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2014 14:27 Roswell wrote:On September 16 2014 12:45 Leporello wrote:On September 16 2014 12:25 xDaunt wrote:On September 16 2014 12:17 Nyxisto wrote:On September 16 2014 12:12 xDaunt wrote:On September 16 2014 12:09 Nyxisto wrote:America has never acted more selfish regarding foreign policy as they do now, and they've also never had less success than they are having now. There is no historical basis for this "selfishness is rational" claim. Historically a good dose of moral principles has always worked wonders. Nations ultimately won't survive following a moral national policy. The necessities of war (among others) prohibit it. Americas liberation of Europe was a pretty moral war. If war happens as a last resort there's nothing immoral about it. How many innocents did the US slaughter during WW2? I don't really know, depends on what your definition of innocent is. I also don't know what you're getting at. There can be just wars that are messy and end up with a lot of dead civilians, and there can be unjust wars with little casualties. The point is this. War is a necessary tool of foreign policy. Successfully prosecuting a war requires immoral actions. Ergo, a state cannot reliably act morally and survive. That's just stupid. Nothing else to be said about it really. Maybe get your head out of whatever century it's in and into the 21st. Lots of states are surviving just fine without wars, or large armies. No one is going to invade Sweden just because they can. The Mongol Hordes have been vanquished. Even the evil Islamic terrorists can't do the damage that we've done to ourselves. With what we've spent on warfare since 9/11, we could've given every student in the US a free college education, given totally free healthcare to all uninsured, housed the homeless, fed the poor, etc. Since you've been an advocate for warfare at every step I've noticed, I guess you just have to keep going with it, because the alternative is admitting that you're just stupidly arrogant (hello!) and on the wrong side of humanity. I suppose that'd suck. On September 16 2014 12:04 xDaunt wrote: Funny enough, one is unlikely to find a more "moral" person than I am. Said every jerk that ever lived. Wars actually help the economy and all that jazz. But yes, because every year we arent at war everyone gets free college education and healthcare! Fuck it, costs a few billion a week, damn maybe we could give everyone like 200$ free walmart gift cards instead. Yeah the Iraq and afghan wars have done miracles for the economy. Alrighty then, show me the GDP graph that shows how poorly the US economy did starting in 2001. Better yet, show me the non war years where we gave everyone free college tuition and free healthcare.
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Oh you want me to bust out data to disprove a claim you have no data to support?
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this discussion is misleading. you can increase your country's GDP by paying people for setting houses on fire or painting pictures of the president 24/7. Then you can go and pay people again to put out the fires and you have increased the GDP again! A miracle!. If you put trillions of dollars into your military you increase your GDP by a few trillions obviously, whether that is going to increase your standard of living even one bit is something that is very doubtful.
Asking "show me how free colleges increase your GDP" is a pretty weird question. They won't, they're free.(relatively speaking)
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Ah, never thought about that. Turns out WW2 was an enigma.
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You could also have them dig a lake. Great for the GDP. Great for reducing the number of jobless people. Also utterly useless and a complete waste of money.
And the fact that you don't have free tuition and healthcare in peacetime does not mean you could not afford it if you cut down your oversized military a bit, it just means that americans for some reason don't like that stuff, probably because of FREEDOM!.
Other countries, like Germany for example, manage very well to have a general healthcare system even for people who don't make a lot of money, and to have free tuition in college. I currently pay 111€/6 months in tuition at the university, and that comes with a free public transport ticket. But bombing Iraq is probably doing a lot more for the standard of living of the average american.
Apparently the Iraq and Afghanistan wars costs 900billion dollar IN ADDITION to your already absurd defense spendings. So the military becomes even more expensive when they do the only thing a military is actually useful, fight wars.
Apparently there are ~21 million college students in the USA. That is the number i have found, could be wrong. 900 billion would mean ~45000$ per student, but i guess that would be over roughly 10 years, so you could probably not afford free tuition, at least not at the absurd tuition rates you already have, just by not invading iraq and afghanistan. Still, 4500$ less tuition per year is probably something that would make students really happy. Did invading Iraq make anyone really happy? Alternatively, invest that money into having less debt, that will pay off in the long term too.
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On September 17 2014 00:54 Simberto wrote: Alternatively, invest that money into having less debt, that will pay off in the long term too. no it wouldnt.. if the US paid of its debt there would be a massive demand for free assets that would push places like Germany or Canada into deflations as their own debts are bid up by various pools of finance that require as-good-as-cash but interest paying instruments.
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On September 17 2014 00:54 Simberto wrote:You could also have them dig a lake. Great for the GDP. Great for reducing the number of jobless people. Also utterly useless and a complete waste of money. And the fact that you don't have free tuition and healthcare in peacetime does not mean you could not afford it if you cut down your oversized military a bit, it just means that americans for some reason don't like that stuff, probably because of FREEDOM!. Other countries, like Germany for example, manage very well to have a general healthcare system even for people who don't make a lot of money, and to have free tuition in college. I currently pay 111€/6 months in tuition at the university, and that comes with a free public transport ticket. But bombing Iraq is probably doing a lot more for the standard of living of the average american. Apparently the Iraq and Afghanistan wars costs 900billion dollar IN ADDITION to your already absurd defense spendings. So the military becomes even more expensive when they do the only thing a military is actually useful, fight wars. Apparently there are ~21 million college students in the USA. That is the number i have found, could be wrong. 900 billion would mean ~45000$ per student, but i guess that would be over roughly 10 years, so you could probably not afford free tuition, at least not at the absurd tuition rates you already have, just by not invading iraq and afghanistan. Still, 4500$ less tuition per year is probably something that would make students really happy. Did invading Iraq make anyone really happy? Alternatively, invest that money into having less debt, that will pay off in the long term too. Speaking of free tuition, one thing having expensive tuition does that's beneficial is that it acts as a filter. University is not for everyone. It being expensive is a good way to get prospective students to think hard about whether or not it really is for them. If anybody can go to university, you end up with similar problems to inner-city public schools. Too many students, many of whom don't really care about learning, and too few teachers. It will decrease the quality of education the students who do want to learn will get.
Now, maybe you could get away with free tuition by simply forcing students to maintain a certain, relatively high, GPA to stay enrolled, but that won't solve the problem for Freshmen.
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On September 17 2014 01:20 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 00:54 Simberto wrote:You could also have them dig a lake. Great for the GDP. Great for reducing the number of jobless people. Also utterly useless and a complete waste of money. And the fact that you don't have free tuition and healthcare in peacetime does not mean you could not afford it if you cut down your oversized military a bit, it just means that americans for some reason don't like that stuff, probably because of FREEDOM!. Other countries, like Germany for example, manage very well to have a general healthcare system even for people who don't make a lot of money, and to have free tuition in college. I currently pay 111€/6 months in tuition at the university, and that comes with a free public transport ticket. But bombing Iraq is probably doing a lot more for the standard of living of the average american. Apparently the Iraq and Afghanistan wars costs 900billion dollar IN ADDITION to your already absurd defense spendings. So the military becomes even more expensive when they do the only thing a military is actually useful, fight wars. Apparently there are ~21 million college students in the USA. That is the number i have found, could be wrong. 900 billion would mean ~45000$ per student, but i guess that would be over roughly 10 years, so you could probably not afford free tuition, at least not at the absurd tuition rates you already have, just by not invading iraq and afghanistan. Still, 4500$ less tuition per year is probably something that would make students really happy. Did invading Iraq make anyone really happy? Alternatively, invest that money into having less debt, that will pay off in the long term too. Speaking of free tuition, one thing having expensive tuition does that's beneficial is that it acts as a filter. University is not for everyone. It being expensive is a good way to get prospective students to think hard about whether or not it really is for them. If anybody can go to university, you end up with similar problems to inner-city public schools. Too many students, many of whom don't really care about learning, and too few teachers. It will decrease the quality of education the students who do want to learn will get. Now, maybe you could get away with free tuition by simply forcing students to maintain a certain, relatively high, GPA to stay enrolled, but that won't solve the problem for Freshmen. Given the fact that the US ranks among the highest when it comes to college enrollment rates and Germany for example ranking especially low, I doubt that this has any basis in reality. My guess is that the most important factor is how the economy is structured. Germany still has the whole "dual-apprenticeship" thing going and offers a viable alternative to a college education. Quite a lot of people here voluntarily choose to learn a craft instead of going to college and it can actually earn you quite a lot of money, I don't get that impression from the US.
(http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Education/Tertiary-enrollment)
Also creating a college entry barrier through tuition doesn't keep the stupid people out of college, it keeps the poor people out of college. A timely visit to your nearest campus will probably confirm this.
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On September 17 2014 00:54 Simberto wrote:You could also have them dig a lake. Great for the GDP. Great for reducing the number of jobless people. Also utterly useless and a complete waste of money. i like this lake
On September 17 2014 01:20 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 00:54 Simberto wrote:You could also have them dig a lake. Great for the GDP. Great for reducing the number of jobless people. Also utterly useless and a complete waste of money. And the fact that you don't have free tuition and healthcare in peacetime does not mean you could not afford it if you cut down your oversized military a bit, it just means that americans for some reason don't like that stuff, probably because of FREEDOM!. Other countries, like Germany for example, manage very well to have a general healthcare system even for people who don't make a lot of money, and to have free tuition in college. I currently pay 111€/6 months in tuition at the university, and that comes with a free public transport ticket. But bombing Iraq is probably doing a lot more for the standard of living of the average american. Apparently the Iraq and Afghanistan wars costs 900billion dollar IN ADDITION to your already absurd defense spendings. So the military becomes even more expensive when they do the only thing a military is actually useful, fight wars. Apparently there are ~21 million college students in the USA. That is the number i have found, could be wrong. 900 billion would mean ~45000$ per student, but i guess that would be over roughly 10 years, so you could probably not afford free tuition, at least not at the absurd tuition rates you already have, just by not invading iraq and afghanistan. Still, 4500$ less tuition per year is probably something that would make students really happy. Did invading Iraq make anyone really happy? Alternatively, invest that money into having less debt, that will pay off in the long term too. Speaking of free tuition, one thing having expensive tuition does that's beneficial is that it acts as a filter. University is not for everyone. It being expensive is a good way to get prospective students to think hard about whether or not it really is for them. If anybody can go to university, you end up with similar problems to inner-city public schools. Too many students, many of whom don't really care about learning, and too few teachers. It will decrease the quality of education the students who do want to learn will get. Now, maybe you could get away with free tuition by simply forcing students to maintain a certain, relatively high, GPA to stay enrolled, but that won't solve the problem for Freshmen. only poor students are filtered out, no?
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On September 17 2014 01:20 Millitron wrote: Speaking of free tuition, one thing having expensive tuition does that's beneficial is that it acts as a filter. University is not for everyone. It being expensive is a good way to get prospective students to think hard about whether or not it really is for them.
Does it? Student loans mean that there's no short term drop in disposable income if one chooses higher education. It seems to me that the only people who would think hard about its value are those who are responsible anyway. So if you're irresponsible it allows you to dig yourself into a deeper hole and if you are responsible you just end up paying more. Seems like a loss across the whole spectrum.
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Wars are good for the economy is essentially a Keynesian economic argument. Funny isn't it, that argument usually comes from the right; the same folks who are often found rejecting Keynesian economics. Personally, I'd rather spend the money on infrastructure, but I guess that makes me a hippie.
In all seriousness, I'm not a pacifist or isolationist or anything, more of a neo-imperiliast at heart. I believe in empire building. It's just if you're going to conquer a nation, then fucking CONQUER it, not whatever it is we did in Iraq and Afghanistan. The problem is invasions are costly and difficult and you have to commit to a long term occupation. If that's not politically pragmatic, and it never is, then maybe it wasn't a good idea in the first place.
There's an argument that gets made that if we don't go into Iraq and Syria now, it will become a breeding ground for anti-American terrorism. As if its not already. I'm all for a propaganda war, a war that would be much easier to prosecute if the US didn't have a history of counter-productive meddling in the region, its the bombs I'm skeptical of. ISIS is deliberately provoking us. We don't have to take the bait.
So, what exactly is our end-game in the Arab world? I'm not convinced we have one.
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On September 17 2014 01:50 sc2isnotdying wrote: Wars are good for the economy is essentially a Keynesian economic argument. Funny isn't it, that argument usually comes from the right; the same folks who are often found rejecting Keynesian economics. Personally, I'd rather spend the money on infrastructure, but I guess that makes me a hippie.
In all seriousness, I'm not a pacifist or isolationist or anything, more of a neo-imperiliast at heart. I believe in empire building. It's just if you're going to conquer a nation, then fucking CONQUER it, not whatever it is we did in Iraq and Afghanistan. The problem is invasions are costly and difficult and you have to commit to a long term occupation. If that's not politically pragmatic, and it never is, then maybe it wasn't a good idea in the first place.
There's an argument that gets made that if we don't go into Iraq and Syria now, it will become a breeding ground for anti-American terrorism. As if its not already. I'm all for a propaganda war, a war that would be much easier to prosecute if the US didn't have a history of counter-productive meddling in the region, its the bombs I'm skeptical of. ISIS is deliberately provoking us. We don't have to take the bait.
So, what exactly is our end-game in the Arab world? I'm not convinced we have one.
When we no longer need Oil which is approaching sooner or later, then we'll leave the area alone and let Europe/Asia deal with it.
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On September 17 2014 02:05 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 01:50 sc2isnotdying wrote: Wars are good for the economy is essentially a Keynesian economic argument. Funny isn't it, that argument usually comes from the right; the same folks who are often found rejecting Keynesian economics. Personally, I'd rather spend the money on infrastructure, but I guess that makes me a hippie.
In all seriousness, I'm not a pacifist or isolationist or anything, more of a neo-imperiliast at heart. I believe in empire building. It's just if you're going to conquer a nation, then fucking CONQUER it, not whatever it is we did in Iraq and Afghanistan. The problem is invasions are costly and difficult and you have to commit to a long term occupation. If that's not politically pragmatic, and it never is, then maybe it wasn't a good idea in the first place.
There's an argument that gets made that if we don't go into Iraq and Syria now, it will become a breeding ground for anti-American terrorism. As if its not already. I'm all for a propaganda war, a war that would be much easier to prosecute if the US didn't have a history of counter-productive meddling in the region, its the bombs I'm skeptical of. ISIS is deliberately provoking us. We don't have to take the bait.
So, what exactly is our end-game in the Arab world? I'm not convinced we have one. When we no longer need Oil which is approaching sooner or later, then we'll leave the area alone and let Europe/Asia deal with it. We still need oil and will continue to need oil for a long time. However, the time is coming very soon when we long will need foreign oil.
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On September 16 2014 21:52 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2014 18:20 nunez wrote:On September 16 2014 10:04 xDaunt wrote: Fuck the world. dear lord. Not a big fan of context, are you? This is like what, the second time in a dozen pages you saw fit to quote three words out of a short response itself? Apparently international diplomacy should be formed and discussed in unexplained sound bites in your world. Fun outlook! i pithy the fool.
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On September 17 2014 02:05 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 01:50 sc2isnotdying wrote: Wars are good for the economy is essentially a Keynesian economic argument. Funny isn't it, that argument usually comes from the right; the same folks who are often found rejecting Keynesian economics. Personally, I'd rather spend the money on infrastructure, but I guess that makes me a hippie.
In all seriousness, I'm not a pacifist or isolationist or anything, more of a neo-imperiliast at heart. I believe in empire building. It's just if you're going to conquer a nation, then fucking CONQUER it, not whatever it is we did in Iraq and Afghanistan. The problem is invasions are costly and difficult and you have to commit to a long term occupation. If that's not politically pragmatic, and it never is, then maybe it wasn't a good idea in the first place.
There's an argument that gets made that if we don't go into Iraq and Syria now, it will become a breeding ground for anti-American terrorism. As if its not already. I'm all for a propaganda war, a war that would be much easier to prosecute if the US didn't have a history of counter-productive meddling in the region, its the bombs I'm skeptical of. ISIS is deliberately provoking us. We don't have to take the bait.
So, what exactly is our end-game in the Arab world? I'm not convinced we have one. When we no longer need Oil which is approaching sooner or later, then we'll leave the area alone and let Europe/Asia deal with it.
I'll just note, that in Iraq we've done OK in developing oil fields for US companies, although I'd argue that mostly benefits just the Oil companies and not really the American people, but in Afghanistan, the US has been depressingly absent from developing the country's untapped mineral deposits. From Wikipedia: "...a 2011 news story, the CSM reported, 'The United States and other Western nations that have borne the brunt of the cost of the Afghan war have been conspicuously absent from the bidding process on Afghanistan's mineral deposits, leaving it mostly to regional powers."'
Imagine if we had just spent the 900bn dollars those wars cost investing in domestic and alternative energy sources.
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