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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On September 14 2014 01:51 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2014 01:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 14 2014 01:20 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 14 2014 01:13 GreenHorizons wrote:Millions of Americans struggle to get by on low wages, often without any benefits such as paid sick leave, a pension, or even health insurance. Their difficult lives are made immeasurably harder when they do the work they have been hired to do, but their employers refuse to pay, pay for some hours but not others, or fail to pay overtime premiums when employees’ hours exceed 40 in a week.
This failure to pay what workers are legally entitled to can be called wage theft; in essence, it involves employers taking money that belongs to their employees and keeping it for themselves. Amounts that seem small, such as not paying for time spent preparing a work station at the start of a shift, or for cleaning up and closing up at the end of a shift, can add up. When a worker earns only a minimum wage ($290 for a 40-hour week), shaving a mere half hour a day from the paycheck means a loss of more than $1,400 a year, including overtime premiums. That could be nearly 10 percent of a minimum-wage employee’s annual earnings—the difference between paying the rent and utilities or risking eviction and the loss of gas, water, or electric service.
Survey evidence suggests that wage theft is widespread and costs workers billions of dollars a year, a transfer from low-income employees to business owners that worsens income inequality, hurts workers and their families, and damages the sense of fairness and justice that a democracy needs to survive. A three-city study of workers in low-wage industries found that in any given week, two-thirds experienced at least one pay-related violation.1 The researchers estimated that the average loss per worker over the course of a year was $2,634, out of total earnings of $17,616. The total annual wage theft from front-line workers in low-wage industries in the three cities approached $3 billion. If these findings in New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles are generalizable to the rest of the U.S. low-wage workforce of 30 million, wage theft is costing workers more than $50 billion a year.
It is useful to compare the cost of these wage and hour violations with crimes that are better recognized and greatly more feared, though they are much smaller in their overall dollar impact. All of the robberies, burglaries, larcenies, and motor vehicle thefts in the nation cost their victims less than $14 billion in 2012, according to the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports.2 That is well over one-third of the estimated cost of wage theft nationwide. I know for a fact that Xerox is guilty of this on a pretty large scale. Think anyone is going to prison for stealing billions of dollars from people who would go to jail for stealing dinner?... Nope! MMMmmm. Taste like justice... As if it wasn't enough that they are already getting paid a shit wage but employers are stealing what little they owe people too?!.... Source You also don't get sent to jail if you steal time from your employer. With wage theft you're generally talking about small transactions that are highly disputable and cut multiple ways. No you get fired... I'd be ok with that too. But I don't think we can expect even that much. Nothing really disputable about setting up a workstation off the clock. You are supposed to get paid but they force you to do it off the clock. That's just plain theft. You don't always get fired. Most instances are too small to warrant that, and you either ignore it or talk to the employee about it. And like I said, people aren't going to jail for it either. Yes some instances are clear cut and / or systemic, which is where law enforcement and civil lawsuits are focused. But time / wage theft is mostly about small instances that get repeated and only add up to something significant over a long period of time.
"The researchers estimated that the average loss per worker over the course of a year was $2,634, out of total earnings of $17,616."
But of course you will side with employers, doesn't matter what they do. Is no big deal, everything is fine, if anything they are still paying those drones too much. Don't you ever get sick of yourself?
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On September 14 2014 05:54 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2014 01:51 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 14 2014 01:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 14 2014 01:20 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 14 2014 01:13 GreenHorizons wrote:Millions of Americans struggle to get by on low wages, often without any benefits such as paid sick leave, a pension, or even health insurance. Their difficult lives are made immeasurably harder when they do the work they have been hired to do, but their employers refuse to pay, pay for some hours but not others, or fail to pay overtime premiums when employees’ hours exceed 40 in a week.
This failure to pay what workers are legally entitled to can be called wage theft; in essence, it involves employers taking money that belongs to their employees and keeping it for themselves. Amounts that seem small, such as not paying for time spent preparing a work station at the start of a shift, or for cleaning up and closing up at the end of a shift, can add up. When a worker earns only a minimum wage ($290 for a 40-hour week), shaving a mere half hour a day from the paycheck means a loss of more than $1,400 a year, including overtime premiums. That could be nearly 10 percent of a minimum-wage employee’s annual earnings—the difference between paying the rent and utilities or risking eviction and the loss of gas, water, or electric service.
Survey evidence suggests that wage theft is widespread and costs workers billions of dollars a year, a transfer from low-income employees to business owners that worsens income inequality, hurts workers and their families, and damages the sense of fairness and justice that a democracy needs to survive. A three-city study of workers in low-wage industries found that in any given week, two-thirds experienced at least one pay-related violation.1 The researchers estimated that the average loss per worker over the course of a year was $2,634, out of total earnings of $17,616. The total annual wage theft from front-line workers in low-wage industries in the three cities approached $3 billion. If these findings in New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles are generalizable to the rest of the U.S. low-wage workforce of 30 million, wage theft is costing workers more than $50 billion a year.
It is useful to compare the cost of these wage and hour violations with crimes that are better recognized and greatly more feared, though they are much smaller in their overall dollar impact. All of the robberies, burglaries, larcenies, and motor vehicle thefts in the nation cost their victims less than $14 billion in 2012, according to the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports.2 That is well over one-third of the estimated cost of wage theft nationwide. I know for a fact that Xerox is guilty of this on a pretty large scale. Think anyone is going to prison for stealing billions of dollars from people who would go to jail for stealing dinner?... Nope! MMMmmm. Taste like justice... As if it wasn't enough that they are already getting paid a shit wage but employers are stealing what little they owe people too?!.... Source You also don't get sent to jail if you steal time from your employer. With wage theft you're generally talking about small transactions that are highly disputable and cut multiple ways. No you get fired... I'd be ok with that too. But I don't think we can expect even that much. Nothing really disputable about setting up a workstation off the clock. You are supposed to get paid but they force you to do it off the clock. That's just plain theft. You don't always get fired. Most instances are too small to warrant that, and you either ignore it or talk to the employee about it. And like I said, people aren't going to jail for it either. Yes some instances are clear cut and / or systemic, which is where law enforcement and civil lawsuits are focused. But time / wage theft is mostly about small instances that get repeated and only add up to something significant over a long period of time. " The researchers estimated that the average loss per worker over the course of a year was $2,634, out of total earnings of $17,616." But of course you will side with employers, doesn't matter what they do. Is no big deal, everything is fine, if anything they are still paying those drones too much. Don't you ever get sick of yourself?
I wasn't "siding with employers", I was pointing out that these time violations are generally very small instances that cut both ways. Employers will often want workers to do things before they clock in like put on a uniform, which can spill into unreasonable requests. Employees often do the same, like make a personal call while on the clock or eat food when not on break.
Except for a few big a systemic violators, we're generally talking small amounts that only add up to something meaningful in the hands of advocacy groups. For example, here's employee theft:
The U.S. Chamber of Commerce estimates that 75% of employees steal from the workplace and that most do so repeatedly. link
Better lock up 75% of the population!
or:
An article in the June 21, 2006 issue of the Toronto’s Globe & Mail newspaper noted that a British employment law expert estimated the cost of lost productivity from employees in his country watching the World Cup soccer matches in the workplace this summer to be $8.25 billion. link
If someone's really taking advantage of workers, by all means go after them. But these "$2K per worker" or "$50B annually" figures are largely bunk.
Edit: Mind you the $2K figure isn't average worker, it's an extrapolated annual average from 3 select cities of workers in low income occupations using data from surveys that rely on social networks to disseminate them with, as far as I can tell, no way to verify that the data is accurate.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
le resistance and the resisted. doesn't take a genius to see who has the power between disgruntled employees and output maximizing management.
that they are disgruntled and still at these jobs should be indication that they have some reason to stay put. the same reason will grant employers some power.
it's like the situation with a kid and his nagging asian parent. the kid will steal time and skip some of the workload, but this is not to say the relationship cuts both ways in some grand equivalence of perfect equals.
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America’s rapidly-expanding war against ISIS won’t involve large numbers of U.S. troops on the ground, President Obama is promising. And it’s clear that airstrikes alone won’t beat back the extremist group. Which means that if the President wants to have any hope of meeting his far-reaching goal of destroying ISIS, he’s going to have to rely on private military contractors.
At least, that’s what the contractors are hoping.
At the height of the Iraq war, these firms hired hundreds of thousands of people: guns-for-hire, IT geeks, logistics specialists, interrogators, and short order cooks to ladle out the slop at the military cafeteria. Over time, some of those contractors became the symbol for everything that was wrong with the Iraq war: hugely expensive, ineffective, and indifferent to Iraqi life. Contractors were at the middle of the war’s biggest scandals, from Abu Ghraib to Nissour Square. And it was the abductions and murder of Blackwater contractors that sparked one of Iraq's biggest battles.
None of the five current and former contractors who spoke with The Daily Beast expected a replay of last decade’s Iraq war. But they all said a major opportunity was coming—both for them, and for Obama, who could use the private armies as a way to conceal just how many people will be fighting in this new conflict.
Source
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So Obama has to respond to a problem and solve it surreptitiously, but he personally needs to spike the football if the plan is successful. Typical of his presidency and probably a big reason why very few things have worked out the way he wanted, especially on foreign policy.
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I think a war weary US public and a more let the world take care of itself attitude hasn't helped either.
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On September 14 2014 08:06 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2014 05:54 Crushinator wrote:On September 14 2014 01:51 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 14 2014 01:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 14 2014 01:20 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 14 2014 01:13 GreenHorizons wrote:Millions of Americans struggle to get by on low wages, often without any benefits such as paid sick leave, a pension, or even health insurance. Their difficult lives are made immeasurably harder when they do the work they have been hired to do, but their employers refuse to pay, pay for some hours but not others, or fail to pay overtime premiums when employees’ hours exceed 40 in a week.
This failure to pay what workers are legally entitled to can be called wage theft; in essence, it involves employers taking money that belongs to their employees and keeping it for themselves. Amounts that seem small, such as not paying for time spent preparing a work station at the start of a shift, or for cleaning up and closing up at the end of a shift, can add up. When a worker earns only a minimum wage ($290 for a 40-hour week), shaving a mere half hour a day from the paycheck means a loss of more than $1,400 a year, including overtime premiums. That could be nearly 10 percent of a minimum-wage employee’s annual earnings—the difference between paying the rent and utilities or risking eviction and the loss of gas, water, or electric service.
Survey evidence suggests that wage theft is widespread and costs workers billions of dollars a year, a transfer from low-income employees to business owners that worsens income inequality, hurts workers and their families, and damages the sense of fairness and justice that a democracy needs to survive. A three-city study of workers in low-wage industries found that in any given week, two-thirds experienced at least one pay-related violation.1 The researchers estimated that the average loss per worker over the course of a year was $2,634, out of total earnings of $17,616. The total annual wage theft from front-line workers in low-wage industries in the three cities approached $3 billion. If these findings in New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles are generalizable to the rest of the U.S. low-wage workforce of 30 million, wage theft is costing workers more than $50 billion a year.
It is useful to compare the cost of these wage and hour violations with crimes that are better recognized and greatly more feared, though they are much smaller in their overall dollar impact. All of the robberies, burglaries, larcenies, and motor vehicle thefts in the nation cost their victims less than $14 billion in 2012, according to the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports.2 That is well over one-third of the estimated cost of wage theft nationwide. I know for a fact that Xerox is guilty of this on a pretty large scale. Think anyone is going to prison for stealing billions of dollars from people who would go to jail for stealing dinner?... Nope! MMMmmm. Taste like justice... As if it wasn't enough that they are already getting paid a shit wage but employers are stealing what little they owe people too?!.... Source You also don't get sent to jail if you steal time from your employer. With wage theft you're generally talking about small transactions that are highly disputable and cut multiple ways. No you get fired... I'd be ok with that too. But I don't think we can expect even that much. Nothing really disputable about setting up a workstation off the clock. You are supposed to get paid but they force you to do it off the clock. That's just plain theft. You don't always get fired. Most instances are too small to warrant that, and you either ignore it or talk to the employee about it. And like I said, people aren't going to jail for it either. Yes some instances are clear cut and / or systemic, which is where law enforcement and civil lawsuits are focused. But time / wage theft is mostly about small instances that get repeated and only add up to something significant over a long period of time. " The researchers estimated that the average loss per worker over the course of a year was $2,634, out of total earnings of $17,616." But of course you will side with employers, doesn't matter what they do. Is no big deal, everything is fine, if anything they are still paying those drones too much. Don't you ever get sick of yourself? I wasn't "siding with employers", I was pointing out that these time violations are generally very small instances that cut both ways. Employers will often want workers to do things before they clock in like put on a uniform, which can spill into unreasonable requests. Employees often do the same, like make a personal call while on the clock or eat food when not on break. Except for a few big a systemic violators, we're generally talking small amounts that only add up to something meaningful in the hands of advocacy groups. For example, here's employee theft: Show nested quote +The U.S. Chamber of Commerce estimates that 75% of employees steal from the workplace and that most do so repeatedly. linkBetter lock up 75% of the population! or: Show nested quote +An article in the June 21, 2006 issue of the Toronto’s Globe & Mail newspaper noted that a British employment law expert estimated the cost of lost productivity from employees in his country watching the World Cup soccer matches in the workplace this summer to be $8.25 billion. linkIf someone's really taking advantage of workers, by all means go after them. But these "$2K per worker" or "$50B annually" figures are largely bunk. Edit: Mind you the $2K figure isn't average worker, it's an extrapolated annual average from 3 select cities of workers in low income occupations using data from surveys that rely on social networks to disseminate them with, as far as I can tell, no way to verify that the data is accurate.
Bullshit...
Looking in more detail, in the United States in 2012, there were 292,074 robberies of all kinds, including bank robberies, residential robberies, convenience store and gas station robberies, and street robberies.3 The total value of the property taken in those crimes was $340,850,358. Those are not the robberies that were solved; those are all the robberies that were reported to the police, anywhere in the nation.
Those three cities account for more stolen $$$ than all robberies combined...
Pathetic....
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On September 14 2014 11:43 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2014 08:06 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 14 2014 05:54 Crushinator wrote:On September 14 2014 01:51 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 14 2014 01:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 14 2014 01:20 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 14 2014 01:13 GreenHorizons wrote:Millions of Americans struggle to get by on low wages, often without any benefits such as paid sick leave, a pension, or even health insurance. Their difficult lives are made immeasurably harder when they do the work they have been hired to do, but their employers refuse to pay, pay for some hours but not others, or fail to pay overtime premiums when employees’ hours exceed 40 in a week.
This failure to pay what workers are legally entitled to can be called wage theft; in essence, it involves employers taking money that belongs to their employees and keeping it for themselves. Amounts that seem small, such as not paying for time spent preparing a work station at the start of a shift, or for cleaning up and closing up at the end of a shift, can add up. When a worker earns only a minimum wage ($290 for a 40-hour week), shaving a mere half hour a day from the paycheck means a loss of more than $1,400 a year, including overtime premiums. That could be nearly 10 percent of a minimum-wage employee’s annual earnings—the difference between paying the rent and utilities or risking eviction and the loss of gas, water, or electric service.
Survey evidence suggests that wage theft is widespread and costs workers billions of dollars a year, a transfer from low-income employees to business owners that worsens income inequality, hurts workers and their families, and damages the sense of fairness and justice that a democracy needs to survive. A three-city study of workers in low-wage industries found that in any given week, two-thirds experienced at least one pay-related violation.1 The researchers estimated that the average loss per worker over the course of a year was $2,634, out of total earnings of $17,616. The total annual wage theft from front-line workers in low-wage industries in the three cities approached $3 billion. If these findings in New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles are generalizable to the rest of the U.S. low-wage workforce of 30 million, wage theft is costing workers more than $50 billion a year.
It is useful to compare the cost of these wage and hour violations with crimes that are better recognized and greatly more feared, though they are much smaller in their overall dollar impact. All of the robberies, burglaries, larcenies, and motor vehicle thefts in the nation cost their victims less than $14 billion in 2012, according to the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports.2 That is well over one-third of the estimated cost of wage theft nationwide. I know for a fact that Xerox is guilty of this on a pretty large scale. Think anyone is going to prison for stealing billions of dollars from people who would go to jail for stealing dinner?... Nope! MMMmmm. Taste like justice... As if it wasn't enough that they are already getting paid a shit wage but employers are stealing what little they owe people too?!.... Source You also don't get sent to jail if you steal time from your employer. With wage theft you're generally talking about small transactions that are highly disputable and cut multiple ways. No you get fired... I'd be ok with that too. But I don't think we can expect even that much. Nothing really disputable about setting up a workstation off the clock. You are supposed to get paid but they force you to do it off the clock. That's just plain theft. You don't always get fired. Most instances are too small to warrant that, and you either ignore it or talk to the employee about it. And like I said, people aren't going to jail for it either. Yes some instances are clear cut and / or systemic, which is where law enforcement and civil lawsuits are focused. But time / wage theft is mostly about small instances that get repeated and only add up to something significant over a long period of time. " The researchers estimated that the average loss per worker over the course of a year was $2,634, out of total earnings of $17,616." But of course you will side with employers, doesn't matter what they do. Is no big deal, everything is fine, if anything they are still paying those drones too much. Don't you ever get sick of yourself? I wasn't "siding with employers", I was pointing out that these time violations are generally very small instances that cut both ways. Employers will often want workers to do things before they clock in like put on a uniform, which can spill into unreasonable requests. Employees often do the same, like make a personal call while on the clock or eat food when not on break. Except for a few big a systemic violators, we're generally talking small amounts that only add up to something meaningful in the hands of advocacy groups. For example, here's employee theft: The U.S. Chamber of Commerce estimates that 75% of employees steal from the workplace and that most do so repeatedly. linkBetter lock up 75% of the population! or: An article in the June 21, 2006 issue of the Toronto’s Globe & Mail newspaper noted that a British employment law expert estimated the cost of lost productivity from employees in his country watching the World Cup soccer matches in the workplace this summer to be $8.25 billion. linkIf someone's really taking advantage of workers, by all means go after them. But these "$2K per worker" or "$50B annually" figures are largely bunk. Edit: Mind you the $2K figure isn't average worker, it's an extrapolated annual average from 3 select cities of workers in low income occupations using data from surveys that rely on social networks to disseminate them with, as far as I can tell, no way to verify that the data is accurate. Bullshit... Show nested quote +Looking in more detail, in the United States in 2012, there were 292,074 robberies of all kinds, including bank robberies, residential robberies, convenience store and gas station robberies, and street robberies.3 The total value of the property taken in those crimes was $340,850,358. Those are not the robberies that were solved; those are all the robberies that were reported to the police, anywhere in the nation. Those three cities account for more stolen $$$ than all robberies combined... Pathetic....
38.8% of the respondents were illegal immigrants. Yeah, totally a representative sample you can extrapolate from.
Edit: pathetic is right....
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On September 14 2014 12:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2014 11:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 14 2014 08:06 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 14 2014 05:54 Crushinator wrote:On September 14 2014 01:51 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 14 2014 01:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 14 2014 01:20 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 14 2014 01:13 GreenHorizons wrote:Millions of Americans struggle to get by on low wages, often without any benefits such as paid sick leave, a pension, or even health insurance. Their difficult lives are made immeasurably harder when they do the work they have been hired to do, but their employers refuse to pay, pay for some hours but not others, or fail to pay overtime premiums when employees’ hours exceed 40 in a week.
This failure to pay what workers are legally entitled to can be called wage theft; in essence, it involves employers taking money that belongs to their employees and keeping it for themselves. Amounts that seem small, such as not paying for time spent preparing a work station at the start of a shift, or for cleaning up and closing up at the end of a shift, can add up. When a worker earns only a minimum wage ($290 for a 40-hour week), shaving a mere half hour a day from the paycheck means a loss of more than $1,400 a year, including overtime premiums. That could be nearly 10 percent of a minimum-wage employee’s annual earnings—the difference between paying the rent and utilities or risking eviction and the loss of gas, water, or electric service.
Survey evidence suggests that wage theft is widespread and costs workers billions of dollars a year, a transfer from low-income employees to business owners that worsens income inequality, hurts workers and their families, and damages the sense of fairness and justice that a democracy needs to survive. A three-city study of workers in low-wage industries found that in any given week, two-thirds experienced at least one pay-related violation.1 The researchers estimated that the average loss per worker over the course of a year was $2,634, out of total earnings of $17,616. The total annual wage theft from front-line workers in low-wage industries in the three cities approached $3 billion. If these findings in New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles are generalizable to the rest of the U.S. low-wage workforce of 30 million, wage theft is costing workers more than $50 billion a year.
It is useful to compare the cost of these wage and hour violations with crimes that are better recognized and greatly more feared, though they are much smaller in their overall dollar impact. All of the robberies, burglaries, larcenies, and motor vehicle thefts in the nation cost their victims less than $14 billion in 2012, according to the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports.2 That is well over one-third of the estimated cost of wage theft nationwide. I know for a fact that Xerox is guilty of this on a pretty large scale. Think anyone is going to prison for stealing billions of dollars from people who would go to jail for stealing dinner?... Nope! MMMmmm. Taste like justice... As if it wasn't enough that they are already getting paid a shit wage but employers are stealing what little they owe people too?!.... Source You also don't get sent to jail if you steal time from your employer. With wage theft you're generally talking about small transactions that are highly disputable and cut multiple ways. No you get fired... I'd be ok with that too. But I don't think we can expect even that much. Nothing really disputable about setting up a workstation off the clock. You are supposed to get paid but they force you to do it off the clock. That's just plain theft. You don't always get fired. Most instances are too small to warrant that, and you either ignore it or talk to the employee about it. And like I said, people aren't going to jail for it either. Yes some instances are clear cut and / or systemic, which is where law enforcement and civil lawsuits are focused. But time / wage theft is mostly about small instances that get repeated and only add up to something significant over a long period of time. " The researchers estimated that the average loss per worker over the course of a year was $2,634, out of total earnings of $17,616." But of course you will side with employers, doesn't matter what they do. Is no big deal, everything is fine, if anything they are still paying those drones too much. Don't you ever get sick of yourself? I wasn't "siding with employers", I was pointing out that these time violations are generally very small instances that cut both ways. Employers will often want workers to do things before they clock in like put on a uniform, which can spill into unreasonable requests. Employees often do the same, like make a personal call while on the clock or eat food when not on break. Except for a few big a systemic violators, we're generally talking small amounts that only add up to something meaningful in the hands of advocacy groups. For example, here's employee theft: The U.S. Chamber of Commerce estimates that 75% of employees steal from the workplace and that most do so repeatedly. linkBetter lock up 75% of the population! or: An article in the June 21, 2006 issue of the Toronto’s Globe & Mail newspaper noted that a British employment law expert estimated the cost of lost productivity from employees in his country watching the World Cup soccer matches in the workplace this summer to be $8.25 billion. linkIf someone's really taking advantage of workers, by all means go after them. But these "$2K per worker" or "$50B annually" figures are largely bunk. Edit: Mind you the $2K figure isn't average worker, it's an extrapolated annual average from 3 select cities of workers in low income occupations using data from surveys that rely on social networks to disseminate them with, as far as I can tell, no way to verify that the data is accurate. Bullshit... Looking in more detail, in the United States in 2012, there were 292,074 robberies of all kinds, including bank robberies, residential robberies, convenience store and gas station robberies, and street robberies.3 The total value of the property taken in those crimes was $340,850,358. Those are not the robberies that were solved; those are all the robberies that were reported to the police, anywhere in the nation. Those three cities account for more stolen $$$ than all robberies combined... Pathetic.... 38.8% of the respondents were illegal immigrants. Yeah, totally a representative sample you can extrapolate from. Edit: pathetic is right....
You pointing at illegal 'immigrant' sampling as a way to try to undermine a statement that would be true even if you didn't count whatever percentage you think was 'over-sampled' (regardless of how the illegal 'employer' who is stealing this 'over-sampled' group's wages fits into the discussion) is just too apropos to take seriously.
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On September 14 2014 12:24 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2014 12:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 14 2014 11:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 14 2014 08:06 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 14 2014 05:54 Crushinator wrote:On September 14 2014 01:51 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 14 2014 01:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 14 2014 01:20 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 14 2014 01:13 GreenHorizons wrote:Millions of Americans struggle to get by on low wages, often without any benefits such as paid sick leave, a pension, or even health insurance. Their difficult lives are made immeasurably harder when they do the work they have been hired to do, but their employers refuse to pay, pay for some hours but not others, or fail to pay overtime premiums when employees’ hours exceed 40 in a week.
This failure to pay what workers are legally entitled to can be called wage theft; in essence, it involves employers taking money that belongs to their employees and keeping it for themselves. Amounts that seem small, such as not paying for time spent preparing a work station at the start of a shift, or for cleaning up and closing up at the end of a shift, can add up. When a worker earns only a minimum wage ($290 for a 40-hour week), shaving a mere half hour a day from the paycheck means a loss of more than $1,400 a year, including overtime premiums. That could be nearly 10 percent of a minimum-wage employee’s annual earnings—the difference between paying the rent and utilities or risking eviction and the loss of gas, water, or electric service.
Survey evidence suggests that wage theft is widespread and costs workers billions of dollars a year, a transfer from low-income employees to business owners that worsens income inequality, hurts workers and their families, and damages the sense of fairness and justice that a democracy needs to survive. A three-city study of workers in low-wage industries found that in any given week, two-thirds experienced at least one pay-related violation.1 The researchers estimated that the average loss per worker over the course of a year was $2,634, out of total earnings of $17,616. The total annual wage theft from front-line workers in low-wage industries in the three cities approached $3 billion. If these findings in New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles are generalizable to the rest of the U.S. low-wage workforce of 30 million, wage theft is costing workers more than $50 billion a year.
It is useful to compare the cost of these wage and hour violations with crimes that are better recognized and greatly more feared, though they are much smaller in their overall dollar impact. All of the robberies, burglaries, larcenies, and motor vehicle thefts in the nation cost their victims less than $14 billion in 2012, according to the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports.2 That is well over one-third of the estimated cost of wage theft nationwide. I know for a fact that Xerox is guilty of this on a pretty large scale. Think anyone is going to prison for stealing billions of dollars from people who would go to jail for stealing dinner?... Nope! MMMmmm. Taste like justice... As if it wasn't enough that they are already getting paid a shit wage but employers are stealing what little they owe people too?!.... Source You also don't get sent to jail if you steal time from your employer. With wage theft you're generally talking about small transactions that are highly disputable and cut multiple ways. No you get fired... I'd be ok with that too. But I don't think we can expect even that much. Nothing really disputable about setting up a workstation off the clock. You are supposed to get paid but they force you to do it off the clock. That's just plain theft. You don't always get fired. Most instances are too small to warrant that, and you either ignore it or talk to the employee about it. And like I said, people aren't going to jail for it either. Yes some instances are clear cut and / or systemic, which is where law enforcement and civil lawsuits are focused. But time / wage theft is mostly about small instances that get repeated and only add up to something significant over a long period of time. " The researchers estimated that the average loss per worker over the course of a year was $2,634, out of total earnings of $17,616." But of course you will side with employers, doesn't matter what they do. Is no big deal, everything is fine, if anything they are still paying those drones too much. Don't you ever get sick of yourself? I wasn't "siding with employers", I was pointing out that these time violations are generally very small instances that cut both ways. Employers will often want workers to do things before they clock in like put on a uniform, which can spill into unreasonable requests. Employees often do the same, like make a personal call while on the clock or eat food when not on break. Except for a few big a systemic violators, we're generally talking small amounts that only add up to something meaningful in the hands of advocacy groups. For example, here's employee theft: The U.S. Chamber of Commerce estimates that 75% of employees steal from the workplace and that most do so repeatedly. linkBetter lock up 75% of the population! or: An article in the June 21, 2006 issue of the Toronto’s Globe & Mail newspaper noted that a British employment law expert estimated the cost of lost productivity from employees in his country watching the World Cup soccer matches in the workplace this summer to be $8.25 billion. linkIf someone's really taking advantage of workers, by all means go after them. But these "$2K per worker" or "$50B annually" figures are largely bunk. Edit: Mind you the $2K figure isn't average worker, it's an extrapolated annual average from 3 select cities of workers in low income occupations using data from surveys that rely on social networks to disseminate them with, as far as I can tell, no way to verify that the data is accurate. Bullshit... Looking in more detail, in the United States in 2012, there were 292,074 robberies of all kinds, including bank robberies, residential robberies, convenience store and gas station robberies, and street robberies.3 The total value of the property taken in those crimes was $340,850,358. Those are not the robberies that were solved; those are all the robberies that were reported to the police, anywhere in the nation. Those three cities account for more stolen $$$ than all robberies combined... Pathetic.... 38.8% of the respondents were illegal immigrants. Yeah, totally a representative sample you can extrapolate from. Edit: pathetic is right.... You pointing at illegal 'immigrant' sampling as a way to try to undermine a statement that would be true even if you didn't count whatever percentage you think was 'over-sampled' (regardless of how the illegal 'employer' who is stealing this 'over-sampled' group's wages fits into the discussion) is just too apropos to take seriously.
The $2,634 number which the city and national estimates are derived from came from survey data. That survey purposefully targeted at risk populations, like illegal immigrants. Hence, 38.8% of respondents were illegals and over 50% didn't receive pay stubs (many likely working 'under the table'). Furthermore, unless we have a lot of surveys to work from, we can't really tell just how accurate the survey was in the first place. The people being interviewed could have been giving bad data (ex. rounding the number of hours worked off of memory, rounding the pay received, mistaking gross for net pay, etc.).
Moreover, the "it's more than robberies!" statement is silly. Estimates on employee theft exceeds that of robberies as well: Consider the range of estimates cited in 1999 on the Internet: The American Management Association reports that U.S. businesses lose more than $10 billion annually to employee theft and commercial bribery; the U.S. Department of Commerce estimates that employee theft costs about $50 billion annually; the American Society for Industrial Security reports that employee theft currently costs U.S. businesses $100 billion annually; and the Federal Bureau of Investigation estimates that shrinkage due to employee theft, error, and shoplifting range from $10 billion to $150 billion. Other estimates are as high as $200 billion annually.
Link
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On September 14 2014 12:45 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2014 12:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 14 2014 12:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 14 2014 11:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 14 2014 08:06 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 14 2014 05:54 Crushinator wrote:On September 14 2014 01:51 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 14 2014 01:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 14 2014 01:20 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 14 2014 01:13 GreenHorizons wrote:[quote] I know for a fact that Xerox is guilty of this on a pretty large scale. Think anyone is going to prison for stealing billions of dollars from people who would go to jail for stealing dinner?... Nope! MMMmmm. Taste like justice... As if it wasn't enough that they are already getting paid a shit wage but employers are stealing what little they owe people too?!.... Source You also don't get sent to jail if you steal time from your employer. With wage theft you're generally talking about small transactions that are highly disputable and cut multiple ways. No you get fired... I'd be ok with that too. But I don't think we can expect even that much. Nothing really disputable about setting up a workstation off the clock. You are supposed to get paid but they force you to do it off the clock. That's just plain theft. You don't always get fired. Most instances are too small to warrant that, and you either ignore it or talk to the employee about it. And like I said, people aren't going to jail for it either. Yes some instances are clear cut and / or systemic, which is where law enforcement and civil lawsuits are focused. But time / wage theft is mostly about small instances that get repeated and only add up to something significant over a long period of time. " The researchers estimated that the average loss per worker over the course of a year was $2,634, out of total earnings of $17,616." But of course you will side with employers, doesn't matter what they do. Is no big deal, everything is fine, if anything they are still paying those drones too much. Don't you ever get sick of yourself? I wasn't "siding with employers", I was pointing out that these time violations are generally very small instances that cut both ways. Employers will often want workers to do things before they clock in like put on a uniform, which can spill into unreasonable requests. Employees often do the same, like make a personal call while on the clock or eat food when not on break. Except for a few big a systemic violators, we're generally talking small amounts that only add up to something meaningful in the hands of advocacy groups. For example, here's employee theft: The U.S. Chamber of Commerce estimates that 75% of employees steal from the workplace and that most do so repeatedly. linkBetter lock up 75% of the population! or: An article in the June 21, 2006 issue of the Toronto’s Globe & Mail newspaper noted that a British employment law expert estimated the cost of lost productivity from employees in his country watching the World Cup soccer matches in the workplace this summer to be $8.25 billion. linkIf someone's really taking advantage of workers, by all means go after them. But these "$2K per worker" or "$50B annually" figures are largely bunk. Edit: Mind you the $2K figure isn't average worker, it's an extrapolated annual average from 3 select cities of workers in low income occupations using data from surveys that rely on social networks to disseminate them with, as far as I can tell, no way to verify that the data is accurate. Bullshit... Looking in more detail, in the United States in 2012, there were 292,074 robberies of all kinds, including bank robberies, residential robberies, convenience store and gas station robberies, and street robberies.3 The total value of the property taken in those crimes was $340,850,358. Those are not the robberies that were solved; those are all the robberies that were reported to the police, anywhere in the nation. Those three cities account for more stolen $$$ than all robberies combined... Pathetic.... 38.8% of the respondents were illegal immigrants. Yeah, totally a representative sample you can extrapolate from. Edit: pathetic is right.... You pointing at illegal 'immigrant' sampling as a way to try to undermine a statement that would be true even if you didn't count whatever percentage you think was 'over-sampled' (regardless of how the illegal 'employer' who is stealing this 'over-sampled' group's wages fits into the discussion) is just too apropos to take seriously. The $2,634 number which the city and national estimates are derived from came from survey data. That survey purposefully targeted at risk populations, like illegal immigrants. Hence, 38.8% of respondents were illegals and over 50% didn't receive pay stubs (many likely working 'under the table'). Furthermore, unless we have a lot of surveys to work from, we can't really tell just how accurate the survey was in the first place. The people being interviewed could have been giving bad data (ex. rounding the number of hours worked off of memory, rounding the pay received, mistaking gross for net pay, etc.). Moreover, the "it's more than robberies!" statement is silly. Estimates on employee theft exceeds that of robberies as well: Show nested quote +Consider the range of estimates cited in 1999 on the Internet: The American Management Association reports that U.S. businesses lose more than $10 billion annually to employee theft and commercial bribery; the U.S. Department of Commerce estimates that employee theft costs about $50 billion annually; the American Society for Industrial Security reports that employee theft currently costs U.S. businesses $100 billion annually; and the Federal Bureau of Investigation estimates that shrinkage due to employee theft, error, and shoplifting range from $10 billion to $150 billion. Other estimates are as high as $200 billion annually. Link
So the employees should just write it off as shrinkage?
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On September 14 2014 13:03 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2014 12:45 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 14 2014 12:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 14 2014 12:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 14 2014 11:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 14 2014 08:06 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 14 2014 05:54 Crushinator wrote:On September 14 2014 01:51 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 14 2014 01:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 14 2014 01:20 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
[quote]
You also don't get sent to jail if you steal time from your employer.
With wage theft you're generally talking about small transactions that are highly disputable and cut multiple ways. No you get fired... I'd be ok with that too. But I don't think we can expect even that much. Nothing really disputable about setting up a workstation off the clock. You are supposed to get paid but they force you to do it off the clock. That's just plain theft. You don't always get fired. Most instances are too small to warrant that, and you either ignore it or talk to the employee about it. And like I said, people aren't going to jail for it either. Yes some instances are clear cut and / or systemic, which is where law enforcement and civil lawsuits are focused. But time / wage theft is mostly about small instances that get repeated and only add up to something significant over a long period of time. " The researchers estimated that the average loss per worker over the course of a year was $2,634, out of total earnings of $17,616." But of course you will side with employers, doesn't matter what they do. Is no big deal, everything is fine, if anything they are still paying those drones too much. Don't you ever get sick of yourself? I wasn't "siding with employers", I was pointing out that these time violations are generally very small instances that cut both ways. Employers will often want workers to do things before they clock in like put on a uniform, which can spill into unreasonable requests. Employees often do the same, like make a personal call while on the clock or eat food when not on break. Except for a few big a systemic violators, we're generally talking small amounts that only add up to something meaningful in the hands of advocacy groups. For example, here's employee theft: The U.S. Chamber of Commerce estimates that 75% of employees steal from the workplace and that most do so repeatedly. linkBetter lock up 75% of the population! or: An article in the June 21, 2006 issue of the Toronto’s Globe & Mail newspaper noted that a British employment law expert estimated the cost of lost productivity from employees in his country watching the World Cup soccer matches in the workplace this summer to be $8.25 billion. linkIf someone's really taking advantage of workers, by all means go after them. But these "$2K per worker" or "$50B annually" figures are largely bunk. Edit: Mind you the $2K figure isn't average worker, it's an extrapolated annual average from 3 select cities of workers in low income occupations using data from surveys that rely on social networks to disseminate them with, as far as I can tell, no way to verify that the data is accurate. Bullshit... Looking in more detail, in the United States in 2012, there were 292,074 robberies of all kinds, including bank robberies, residential robberies, convenience store and gas station robberies, and street robberies.3 The total value of the property taken in those crimes was $340,850,358. Those are not the robberies that were solved; those are all the robberies that were reported to the police, anywhere in the nation. Those three cities account for more stolen $$$ than all robberies combined... Pathetic.... 38.8% of the respondents were illegal immigrants. Yeah, totally a representative sample you can extrapolate from. Edit: pathetic is right.... You pointing at illegal 'immigrant' sampling as a way to try to undermine a statement that would be true even if you didn't count whatever percentage you think was 'over-sampled' (regardless of how the illegal 'employer' who is stealing this 'over-sampled' group's wages fits into the discussion) is just too apropos to take seriously. The $2,634 number which the city and national estimates are derived from came from survey data. That survey purposefully targeted at risk populations, like illegal immigrants. Hence, 38.8% of respondents were illegals and over 50% didn't receive pay stubs (many likely working 'under the table'). Furthermore, unless we have a lot of surveys to work from, we can't really tell just how accurate the survey was in the first place. The people being interviewed could have been giving bad data (ex. rounding the number of hours worked off of memory, rounding the pay received, mistaking gross for net pay, etc.). Moreover, the "it's more than robberies!" statement is silly. Estimates on employee theft exceeds that of robberies as well: Consider the range of estimates cited in 1999 on the Internet: The American Management Association reports that U.S. businesses lose more than $10 billion annually to employee theft and commercial bribery; the U.S. Department of Commerce estimates that employee theft costs about $50 billion annually; the American Society for Industrial Security reports that employee theft currently costs U.S. businesses $100 billion annually; and the Federal Bureau of Investigation estimates that shrinkage due to employee theft, error, and shoplifting range from $10 billion to $150 billion. Other estimates are as high as $200 billion annually. Link So the employees should just write it off as shrinkage?
It depends. If we're really talking about someone losing a lot due to a wage violation - absolutely fight for what's yours. I'm not sure how illegals are supposed to do that though. That's part of why we need more legal and less illegal workers.
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On September 14 2014 13:17 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2014 13:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 14 2014 12:45 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 14 2014 12:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 14 2014 12:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 14 2014 11:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 14 2014 08:06 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 14 2014 05:54 Crushinator wrote:On September 14 2014 01:51 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 14 2014 01:33 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
No you get fired... I'd be ok with that too. But I don't think we can expect even that much. Nothing really disputable about setting up a workstation off the clock. You are supposed to get paid but they force you to do it off the clock. That's just plain theft. You don't always get fired. Most instances are too small to warrant that, and you either ignore it or talk to the employee about it. And like I said, people aren't going to jail for it either. Yes some instances are clear cut and / or systemic, which is where law enforcement and civil lawsuits are focused. But time / wage theft is mostly about small instances that get repeated and only add up to something significant over a long period of time. " The researchers estimated that the average loss per worker over the course of a year was $2,634, out of total earnings of $17,616." But of course you will side with employers, doesn't matter what they do. Is no big deal, everything is fine, if anything they are still paying those drones too much. Don't you ever get sick of yourself? I wasn't "siding with employers", I was pointing out that these time violations are generally very small instances that cut both ways. Employers will often want workers to do things before they clock in like put on a uniform, which can spill into unreasonable requests. Employees often do the same, like make a personal call while on the clock or eat food when not on break. Except for a few big a systemic violators, we're generally talking small amounts that only add up to something meaningful in the hands of advocacy groups. For example, here's employee theft: The U.S. Chamber of Commerce estimates that 75% of employees steal from the workplace and that most do so repeatedly. linkBetter lock up 75% of the population! or: An article in the June 21, 2006 issue of the Toronto’s Globe & Mail newspaper noted that a British employment law expert estimated the cost of lost productivity from employees in his country watching the World Cup soccer matches in the workplace this summer to be $8.25 billion. linkIf someone's really taking advantage of workers, by all means go after them. But these "$2K per worker" or "$50B annually" figures are largely bunk. Edit: Mind you the $2K figure isn't average worker, it's an extrapolated annual average from 3 select cities of workers in low income occupations using data from surveys that rely on social networks to disseminate them with, as far as I can tell, no way to verify that the data is accurate. Bullshit... Looking in more detail, in the United States in 2012, there were 292,074 robberies of all kinds, including bank robberies, residential robberies, convenience store and gas station robberies, and street robberies.3 The total value of the property taken in those crimes was $340,850,358. Those are not the robberies that were solved; those are all the robberies that were reported to the police, anywhere in the nation. Those three cities account for more stolen $$$ than all robberies combined... Pathetic.... 38.8% of the respondents were illegal immigrants. Yeah, totally a representative sample you can extrapolate from. Edit: pathetic is right.... You pointing at illegal 'immigrant' sampling as a way to try to undermine a statement that would be true even if you didn't count whatever percentage you think was 'over-sampled' (regardless of how the illegal 'employer' who is stealing this 'over-sampled' group's wages fits into the discussion) is just too apropos to take seriously. The $2,634 number which the city and national estimates are derived from came from survey data. That survey purposefully targeted at risk populations, like illegal immigrants. Hence, 38.8% of respondents were illegals and over 50% didn't receive pay stubs (many likely working 'under the table'). Furthermore, unless we have a lot of surveys to work from, we can't really tell just how accurate the survey was in the first place. The people being interviewed could have been giving bad data (ex. rounding the number of hours worked off of memory, rounding the pay received, mistaking gross for net pay, etc.). Moreover, the "it's more than robberies!" statement is silly. Estimates on employee theft exceeds that of robberies as well: Consider the range of estimates cited in 1999 on the Internet: The American Management Association reports that U.S. businesses lose more than $10 billion annually to employee theft and commercial bribery; the U.S. Department of Commerce estimates that employee theft costs about $50 billion annually; the American Society for Industrial Security reports that employee theft currently costs U.S. businesses $100 billion annually; and the Federal Bureau of Investigation estimates that shrinkage due to employee theft, error, and shoplifting range from $10 billion to $150 billion. Other estimates are as high as $200 billion annually. Link So the employees should just write it off as shrinkage? It depends. If we're really talking about someone losing a lot due to a wage violation - absolutely fight for what's yours. I'm not sure how illegals are supposed to do that though. That's part of why we need more legal and less illegal workers.
As if the illegal workers are hiring themselves...So sad...
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So basically, what you need is a functional union culture. But for some reason americans don't like unions.
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On September 14 2014 19:46 Simberto wrote:
So basically, what you need is a functional union culture. But for some reason americans don't like unions.
Partly because some American unions also don't understand what it means to be a union. Aka the car industry unions destroying their own workspace.
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On September 14 2014 19:46 Simberto wrote:
So basically, what you need is a functional union culture. But for some reason americans don't like unions.
An unfortunate casualty of polarized politics. Unions are regarded as greedy and petty, willing to choke out the entire company for needless and unsustainable benefits. It goes relatively unnoticed that there do exist workers who need good representation to protect them from industry abuses and ensure their interests are also considered as a variable beside ROI and growth, which are often given excessive weight.
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The love affair that gave new meaning to the Appalachian Trail has hit the skids.
GOP Rep. Mark Sanford of South Carolina announced on Friday that he and his Argentine fiancee, Maria Belen Chapur, were calling off their engagement and blamed his ongoing legal battles with his ex-wife for the breakup.
The revelation, which caught the political world off-guard, came some five years after Sanford, then South Carolina’s governor, revealed in a tearful press conference that he and Chapur had been having an affair.
The admission came after Sanford reappeared in public after vanishing for several days in June 2009. One of his aides told inquiring reporters that he was hiking the Appalachian Trail; he was actually in Argentina visiting Chapur.
In a rambling, nearly 2,400-word post on his Facebook page, Sanford blamed a custody battle between him and his ex-wife, Jenny, for creating tensions in his relationship with Chapur.
Source
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WASHINGTON, Sept 14 (Reuters) - Bernie Sanders, one of the Senate's leading liberals, said on Sunday he is thinking about running for U.S. president in 2016 as either a Democrat or an independent in a move that could complicate Hillary Clinton's path to the White House.
Sanders, an independent from Vermont, could pose a challenge from the left to Clinton, widely seen as the front-runner for the Democratic presidential nomination. She has not officially said she is a candidate but has acted very much like one.
"I think anybody who speaks to the needs of the working class and the middle class of this country and shows the courage to take on the billionaire class, I think that candidate will do pretty well," Sanders told the NBC program "Meet the Press," giving a possible preview of his message in the 2016 campaign.
Sanders is serving his second six-year term in the Senate. He has cultivated a following among some American liberals, especially on economic issues like the growing income disparity between rich and poor and corporate greed. He is a self-described socialist who caucuses with Democrats in the Senate.
"I am thinking about running for president," Sanders said, adding that he must decide whether to run as an independent or wade into the fight for the Democratic nomination.
Sanders is testing the waters in Iowa, a state that holds an important early contest in the nomination process.
"One of the reasons I'm going to Iowa is to get a sense of how people feel about it," he said of his candidacy. "Look, the truth is (there is) profound anger at both political parties, more and more people are becoming independent. The negative is: how do you set up a 50-state infrastructure as an independent?"
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I would love a Sanders candidacy. Whether he wins or not, it'll be good for America to hear what a real populist sounds like. Let's have an actual discussion about Socialism, as opposed to right-wing parrots simply throwing the term around anytime someone wants to give some people health insurance.
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On September 14 2014 20:46 coverpunch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2014 19:46 Simberto wrote:
So basically, what you need is a functional union culture. But for some reason americans don't like unions. An unfortunate casualty of polarized politics. Unions are regarded as greedy and petty, willing to choke out the entire company for needless and unsustainable benefits. It goes relatively unnoticed that there do exist workers who need good representation to protect them from industry abuses and ensure their interests are also considered as a variable beside ROI and growth, which are often given excessive weight.
Regarded by whom? There is an enduring myth that unions killed the British and American auto industries, a myth which is rarely examined. Strange that currently countries with some of the strongest union cultures on the planet (Japan, German, France) also currently build most of the planets cars.
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EPT
