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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
The U.S. government threatened to fine Yahoo $250,000 a day in 2008 if it failed to comply with a broad demand to hand over user communications — a request the company believed was unconstitutional — according to court documents unsealed Thursday that illuminate how federal officials forced American tech companies to participate in the National Security Agency’s controversial PRISM program.
The documents, roughly 1,500 pages worth, outline a secret and ultimately unsuccessful legal battle by Yahoo to resist the government’s demands. The company’s loss required Yahoo to become one of the first to begin providing information to PRISM, a program that gave the NSA extensive access to records of online communications by users of Yahoo and other U.S.-based technology firms.
The ruling by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review became a key moment in the development of PRISM, helping government officials to convince other Silicon Valley companies that unprecedented data demands had been tested in the courts and found constitutionally sound. Eventually, most major U.S. tech companies, including Google, Facebook, Apple and AOL, complied. Microsoft had joined earlier, before the ruling, NSA documents have shown.
A version of the court ruling had been released in 2009 but was so heavily redacted that observers were unable to discern which company was involved, what the stakes were and how the court had wrestled with many of the issues involved.
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On September 12 2014 10:11 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2014 09:24 KwarK wrote: I don't excuse shit. You seem to think I'm somehow pro murder, pro IS, pro torture, I'm really not and nothing I've said suggests that. I absolutely believe that IS are a bunch of murdering cunts and the world would be better off if they all got dick cancer. I just think they'd be equally murderous and cuntish if they had a different religion and that blaming Islam for their being backwards is not seeing the forest for the trees. Christianity stopped being backwards when the congregation stopped being backwards and decided that a God that endorsed rape and murder wasn't one they wanted. Religions adapt to match the beliefs of their congregations, or they die. We see this happening now with gay rights, western Christianity is a mirror of civilised western society, just as barbaric Arabic Islam is a mirror of barbaric Arabic society.
What you're doing is looking at the reflection of an ugly person in one mirror and that of a handsome person in another and concluding that the first mirror is broken while the second one is working properly. And because somehow the true conclusion isn't obvious enough I pointed out the long, long history of the second mirror showing an ugly person looking ugly (that'd be the point of the crusade examples) to show why your conclusion is wrong.
I don't use the crusades because I think they're relevant to modern Christianity. I don't apologise for Islam today. My point is that neither mirror is better than the other, they're just reflections, they show ugly images of ugly things. Blaming a mirror for showing an ugly reflection is missing the point and praising another mirror for showing a handsome reflection of a handsome thing is easily disproved when you realise that it used to show an ugly reflection of an ugly thing. Show nested quote +On September 12 2014 09:47 KwarK wrote: Writing it out with a simple metaphor in the hope that people will stop accusing me of liking Islam, hating Christianity or apologising for terrorists.
"Mirror A shows an ugly reflection, mirror A is a bad mirror." "But it is reflecting an ugly thing, it is not the mirror that is bad but rather the thing it reflects." "But mirror B shows a good reflection, clearly not all reflections are equal, mirror B is a good mirror, not like bad mirror A." "Yes, but mirror B is reflecting a good thing, mirror B is no more virtuous than mirror A, it simply generates reflections, nothing more." "If that is true then how come the image in B is so much better than that in A?" "Because the enlightenment, a process opposed by mirrors everywhere, happened to the thing that B reflects. If you examine the time before the enlightenment the reflection in B was actually ugly. If your premise of good mirror and bad mirror was true then this would make B a bad mirror and fail to explain why it now shows a good reflection. As the mirror cannot be both bad and good we must conclude that it is neither, and that the image it shows is dictated by the thing it reflects." "....the crusades happened a long time ago.... you like terrorists...." You continue to deny the plain meaning of what you wrote, so I'll have to quit my efforts after this one.
Or you could just learn to read. I'm pretty sure a 14-year-old could comprehend what Kwark was saying very clearly without the analogy and see that he in no way condoned radical Islam or anything like it. This isn't an issue of opinion. You are just factually wrong about it and are putting words in his mouth.
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Although you can clearly argue that the middle-eastern mess is a societal problem and that radical Islam is just a symptom,but there clearly is a difference between Islam, Christianity and Judaism. Even in Western countries you will find a lot of Islamic theologians that are reluctant to call jihadists out on their crap.Not to mention LGBT or women's rights issues. There is a lot of extremist thought spread in Islamic branches all over Europe, right in the most urban areas. It didn't happen by accident that an astonishing numbers of IS fighters actually comes right out of Europe, and a surprising number of them didn't even have Muslim roots. The new waves of anti-antisemitism in Europe are also pretty strong in Islamic communities.
You can be a secular Jew, even an atheist Jew, you can admire the new testament and live like Jesus, but you can't really just live a casual Islam. To act like there is no difference between the religions really completely misses the point.
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United States43627 Posts
On September 12 2014 11:47 Nyxisto wrote: Although you can clearly argue that the middle-eastern mess is a societal problem and that radical Islam is just a symptom,but there clearly is a difference between Islam, Christianity and Judaism. Even in Western countries you will find a lot of Islamic theologians that are reluctant to call jihadists out on their crap.Not to mention LGBT or women's rights issues. There is a lot of extremist thought spread in Islamic branches all over Europe, right in the most urban areas. It didn't happen by accident that an astonishing numbers of IS fighters actually comes right out of Europe, and a surprising number of them didn't even have Muslim roots. The new waves of anti-antisemitism in Europe are also pretty strong in Islamic communities.
You can be a secular Jew, even an atheist Jew, you can admire the new testament and live like Jesus, but you can't really just live a casual Islam. To act like there is no difference between the religions really completely misses the point. I grew up with a secular Muslim at school. He happened to be gay as well and saw no issue with that. He didn't drink or do drugs because it was against his religion but he was an intelligent guy and English to his core (2nd gen Bangledeshi immigrant). You see radicalism occur in areas of poverty without integration which wall themselves in (which is not to say there aren't good reasons immigrants form groups). Second gen immigrant children without prospects or skills find themselves denied the dream of their home nation, get alienated and seek answers in what they imagine to be their heritage after being let down by their new home. I view Europeans fighting for IS as a symptom of an identity crisis within the immigrant community, the result of alienated kids trying to define themselves by their religion (in a very fucked up way) because it gives them answers that their citizenship doesn't.
Honestly I think multiculturalism has failed in an awful lot of places.
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On September 12 2014 11:47 Nyxisto wrote: Although you can clearly argue that the middle-eastern mess is a societal problem and that radical Islam is just a symptom,but there clearly is a difference between Islam, Christianity and Judaism. Even in Western countries you will find a lot of Islamic theologians that are reluctant to call jihadists out on their crap.Not to mention LGBT or women's rights issues. There is a lot of extremist thought spread in Islamic branches all over Europe, right in the most urban areas. It didn't happen by accident that an astonishing numbers of IS fighters actually comes right out of Europe, and a surprising number of them didn't even have Muslim roots. The new waves of anti-antisemitism in Europe are also pretty strong in Islamic communities.
You can be a secular Jew, even an atheist Jew, you can admire the new testament and live like Jesus, but you can't really just live a casual Islam. To act like there is no difference between the religions really completely misses the point.
Idk, all the Muslims I personally know are just normal, "casual" observers with strong anti-jihadist views living peacefully in secular America.
We have Christian extremist groups in this country that regularly commit violence against abortion providers. There is nothing special about Islam that makes them prone to extremism. It has everything to do with social/economic conditions. Desperate young men are easy to recruit.
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Obviously those people do exist, but if we're talking about Islam and its believers as a group the belief has the conceptual problem that there is no church or similar institution that can initiate change or moderate. The whole point behind Islam is that there is not much between you and the monotheistic almighty god that tells you what is good for you and what's not.
Change is only possible if there is an "earthly" voice of authority that is able to put the religion into a framework. Sunni(to a degree) and Wahhabi Islam lack this by definition, as they oppose anything that is between the Muslim and god. IS has taken this to the extreme by destroying every religious symbol, even holy sites of other branches of Islam.
The "I know a guy" argument is nice and all, but I have a hard time believing that the average Muslim in Europe and the US is a secular LGBT supporting dude with no resentments against Jews. That's probably not even the case for the average non religious person.
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On September 12 2014 12:16 sc2isnotdying wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2014 11:47 Nyxisto wrote: Although you can clearly argue that the middle-eastern mess is a societal problem and that radical Islam is just a symptom,but there clearly is a difference between Islam, Christianity and Judaism. Even in Western countries you will find a lot of Islamic theologians that are reluctant to call jihadists out on their crap.Not to mention LGBT or women's rights issues. There is a lot of extremist thought spread in Islamic branches all over Europe, right in the most urban areas. It didn't happen by accident that an astonishing numbers of IS fighters actually comes right out of Europe, and a surprising number of them didn't even have Muslim roots. The new waves of anti-antisemitism in Europe are also pretty strong in Islamic communities.
You can be a secular Jew, even an atheist Jew, you can admire the new testament and live like Jesus, but you can't really just live a casual Islam. To act like there is no difference between the religions really completely misses the point. Idk, all the Muslims I personally know are just normal, "casual" observers with strong anti-jihadist views living peacefully in secular America. We have Christian extremist groups in this country that regularly commit violence against abortion providers. There is nothing special about Islam that makes them prone to extremism. It has everything to do with social/economic conditions. Desperate young men are easy to recruit. And the desperate young men that join christian groups go out and do missionary work, how strange. Ha, but seriously, Islam is all about submitting to Allah, and bettering yourself from the pleasures of the world, there are many many verses about infidels, but the majority is just what the bible is, old stories of good and bad deeds to learn from.
Cultural and educational factors affect the extreme islamists more than the religion, this is true. I mean if you are brainwashed from day 1 with no iutside worldview, and you are told how evil westerners and non muslims are, thats a bad combo. I was raised a christian, but was taught both at home and at school other worldviews... education is probably the main key in unhinging the nightmare that is the middle east. Somehow let the internet unfiltered spread like a plague and over time there will be less extremists. Religion taps into a desperate part of our souls, and glossing over that is not the way to do things. Islam + Middle Earth is bad news isolated. And history shows that. And current events show that. 100,000+ christians have been forced to leave their homes in Iraq or be killed, but you wont see Stealth Blue post that with a swell of outcries, because christians suck or something.
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Ten Arab states have agreed to rally behind Washington in the fight against Islamic State fighters, as the US seeks to build an international coalition.
Following a meeting between US Secretary of State John Kerry and his Arab counterparts in the Saudi city of Jeddah, the participating countries released a statement on Thursday, saying they would “do their share in the comprehensive fight" against the Islamic State group.
In addition to Saudi Arabia, the other Arab states present were Bahrain, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Oman, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates.
Although Turkey was represented in the meeting, it was not mentioned in the final communique.
Kerry is scheduled to fly on Friday to Turkey for urgent talks.
The United States has pressed Arab nations to join a coalition aimed at supporting the US campaign against the self-declared jihadists.
In the final statement, the 10 countries and Washington declared their "shared commitment to stand united against the threat posed by all terrorism, including the so-called Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant".
Participation in the fight will include "as appropriate, joining in the many aspects of a coordinated military campaign against ISIL", said the statement.
'Ending impunity'
The fight will include "stopping the flow of foreign fighters through neighbouring countries, countering financing of ISIL and other violent extremists, repudiating their hateful ideology, ending impunity and bringing perpetrators to justice".
It will also include "contributing to humanitarian relief efforts, assisting with the reconstruction and rehabilitation of communities brutalised by ISIL, supporting states that face the most acute ISIL threat".
A US official in Jeddah said Turkey had its reasons for staying out of the coalition.
"We understand the challenging situation Turkey is in given their detained diplomats and they will make the decision on what role they can play moving forward."
Islamic State fighters were holding 49 Turks hostage, including diplomats and children, abducted from the Turkish consulate in Mosul in Iraq on June 11.
"Turkey remains an important partner on counterterrorism and we will continue to consult closely as we work together to address the threat from ISIL," the official said.
Saudi Foreign Minister Prince Saud al-Faisal called for a "comprehensive approach" that does not focus on one country in the fight against "terrorism", citing Iraq, Lebanon, Libya, Syria and Yemen as affected countries.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/09/arab-states-back-us-fight-against-201491211054523936.html
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On September 12 2014 12:26 Nyxisto wrote: Obviously those people do exist, but if we're talking about Islam and its believers as a group the belief has the conceptual problem that there is no church or similar institution that can initiate change or moderate. The whole point behind Islam is that there is not much between you and the monotheistic almighty god that tells you what is good for you and what's not.
Change is only possible if there is an "earthly" voice of authority that is able to put the religion into a framework. Sunni(to a degree) and Wahhabi Islam lack this by definition, as they oppose anything that is between the Muslim and god. IS has taken this to the extreme by destroying every religious symbol, even holy sites of other branches of Islam. Yes. The Catholic Church with the Pope telling how it is was really beneficial to all those human rights advances the Church was at the forefront for the last 1000 years.
The "I know a guy" argument is nice and all, but I have a hard time believing that the average Muslim in Europe and the US is a secular LGBT supporting dude with no resentments against Jews. That's probably not even the case for the average non religious person. In response to their non scientific "all muslims I know are nice because I come from a middle class and up background and I meet middle class and up people" you give an even worse "well I DONT BELIEVE YOU"
I think there is a clear difference between an integrated middle class Muslim and a lower class one. It doesnt mean that all middle class Muslims are into secularisms, lgbtism, but plenty of middle class non-Muslims dont hold those views either. In fact the policy prescription you described is a relatively new concept in general, for everyone. And quite frankly anti-Semitism is a European invention, and has been practiced in Europe, and continues to be so, by both the right and the left pretty assiduously, so that particularly card I would especially hold back on applying. ISIS talks a lot of shit but I havent seen them build extermination yet like certain Central and Balkan Europeans have a relatively short period time ago.
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On September 12 2014 13:28 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2014 12:26 Nyxisto wrote: Obviously those people do exist, but if we're talking about Islam and its believers as a group the belief has the conceptual problem that there is no church or similar institution that can initiate change or moderate. The whole point behind Islam is that there is not much between you and the monotheistic almighty god that tells you what is good for you and what's not.
Change is only possible if there is an "earthly" voice of authority that is able to put the religion into a framework. Sunni(to a degree) and Wahhabi Islam lack this by definition, as they oppose anything that is between the Muslim and god. IS has taken this to the extreme by destroying every religious symbol, even holy sites of other branches of Islam. Yes. The Catholic Church with the Pope telling how it is was really beneficial to all those human rights advances the Church was at the forefront for the last 1000 years. Among the Christians evangelical radicals are the most extremist group for exactly that reason. They listen only to the "holy word" and lack a central authority that is able to reform the religion. The Catholic Church has long abandoned literal interpretation of the bible. I don't know how you would even try to make the same thing happen with radical Evangelicals In the US .
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On September 12 2014 14:59 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2014 13:28 Sub40APM wrote:On September 12 2014 12:26 Nyxisto wrote: Obviously those people do exist, but if we're talking about Islam and its believers as a group the belief has the conceptual problem that there is no church or similar institution that can initiate change or moderate. The whole point behind Islam is that there is not much between you and the monotheistic almighty god that tells you what is good for you and what's not.
Change is only possible if there is an "earthly" voice of authority that is able to put the religion into a framework. Sunni(to a degree) and Wahhabi Islam lack this by definition, as they oppose anything that is between the Muslim and god. IS has taken this to the extreme by destroying every religious symbol, even holy sites of other branches of Islam. Yes. The Catholic Church with the Pope telling how it is was really beneficial to all those human rights advances the Church was at the forefront for the last 1000 years. Among the Christians evangelical radicals are the most extremist group for exactly that reason. They listen only to the "holy word" and lack a central authority that is able to reform the religion. The Catholic Church has long abandoned literal interpretation of the bible. I don't know how you would even try to make the same thing happen with radical Evangelicals In the US . long ago is 50 years. In the history of an organization that has had what, 1500 years on the books? For the vast majority of history, Christianity was as intolerant as Islam, regardless of the structural difference of the office holders or the more 'peaceful' language of the new testament or whatever. Assholes will always find a way to interpret inherently vague texts in a context that lets them maximize asshattery.
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We seem to be ignoring the reason why Islamism is becoming popular and looking at the Quaran or playing the game of which religion has the highest kill count/assholery level is not going to get you anywhere.
The first reason why so many people turned to Islamists is the failure of secular Arab nationalism and the fall of the Soviet Union which kept these movements alive. The second reason is a fear is a perspective that the entire world is out to crush Islam, both the secular Muslims and non-Muslims. Muslims were being massacred in Bosnia, Chechnya, then Saudi Arabia from what they saw sold out to the West and allowed Mecca to be "occupied" by infidels, and then the Iraq War happened. To them, it looked like Islam was under attack and a Caliphate was needed to be established to save Islam, both from non-Muslims and "false" Muslims.
And to say ISIS is rooted in medieval ideas is a bit on a misconception in my opinion. Yes the inspirations are medieval and they seek to recreate a Caliphate from medieval times, but the idea of an Islamic state as opposed to a nation state is a pretty new idea.
Also this is talking from personal experience in America, but the Islamists I have met tended to be highly educated, middle class or upper middle class, intelligent, and seen as model students whose political views were seen as being batshit crazy, especially from their family.
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You know the thing that puzzles me is that people think ISIS is worse than Saddam or Assad or any of the other shitty Middle Eastern leaders, some of whom we outwardly support, and most of whom we have supported at one time or another. What was Saddam's civilian kill count? What's ISIS's civilian kill count again? Saddam's torture chambers, that we knew about, were far more horrifying than bullets in the back of the head, about on par with crucifixions. The US's modus operandi is to only get involved when it threatens American interests, but the disgusting aspect is that the media hype train has been equating ISIS with Hitler since it apparently has the memory of a goldfish and can't even remember how terrible things have been under Saddam and Assad. It's a golden opportunity for the US, which only a year ago had a population that overwhelmingly didn't want to go into Syria at all when Assad was gassing his own people. The only real difference between ISIS and the tyrants who preceded them is that they are engaged in a war right now, but their killing tactics, torture methods, and general demeanor are simply par for the course. The purported justification for going in to eliminate ISIS (i.e. the US has an obligation to defend the world from these demonic terrorists) is just complete horseshit, as is the media's portrayal of ISIS as a serious threat to Americans.
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On September 12 2014 16:45 IgnE wrote: You know the thing that puzzles me is that people think ISIS is worse than Saddam or Assad or any of the other shitty Middle Eastern leaders, some of whom we outwardly support, and most of whom we have supported at one time or another. What was Saddam's civilian kill count? What's ISIS's civilian kill count again? Saddam's torture chambers, that we knew about, were far more horrifying than bullets in the back of the head, about on par with crucifixions. The US's modus operandi is to only get involved when it threatens American interests, but the disgusting aspect is that the media hype train has been equating ISIS with Hitler since it apparently has the memory of a goldfish and can't even remember how terrible things have been under Saddam and Assad. It's a golden opportunity for the US, which only a year ago had a population that overwhelmingly didn't want to go into Syria at all when Assad was gassing his own people. The only real difference between ISIS and the tyrants who preceded them is that they are engaged in a war right now, but their killing tactics, torture methods, and general demeanor are simply par for the course. The purported justification for going in to eliminate ISIS (i.e. the US has an obligation to defend the world from these demonic terrorists) is just complete horseshit, as is the media's portrayal of ISIS as a serious threat to Americans. For posterity's sake, the remarks from the president:
At this moment, the greatest threats come from the Middle East and North Africa, where radical groups exploit grievances for their own gain. And one of those groups is ISIL -- which calls itself the “Islamic State.”
Now let’s make two things clear: ISIL is not “Islamic.” No religion condones the killing of innocents. And the vast majority of ISIL’s victims have been Muslim. And ISIL is certainly not a state. It was formerly al Qaeda’s affiliate in Iraq, and has taken advantage of sectarian strife and Syria’s civil war to gain territory on both sides of the Iraq-Syrian border. It is recognized by no government, nor by the people it subjugates. ISIL is a terrorist organization, pure and simple. And it has no vision other than the slaughter of all who stand in its way.
In a region that has known so much bloodshed, these terrorists are unique in their brutality. They execute captured prisoners. They kill children. They enslave, rape, and force women into marriage. They threatened a religious minority with genocide. And in acts of barbarism, they took the lives of two American journalists -- Jim Foley and Steven Sotloff.
So ISIL poses a threat to the people of Iraq and Syria, and the broader Middle East -- including American citizens, personnel and facilities. If left unchecked, these terrorists could pose a growing threat beyond that region, including to the United States. While we have not yet detected specific plotting against our homeland, ISIL leaders have threatened America and our allies. Our Intelligence Community believes that thousands of foreigners -– including Europeans and some Americans –- have joined them in Syria and Iraq. Trained and battle-hardened, these fighters could try to return to their home countries and carry out deadly attacks. There's a lot of window dressing, but essentially the point is that stability in the Middle East is vital in preventing terrorism from being exported to the United States. The US is doing this in part as a humanitarian mission but it is mostly in the fear that ISIS will establish a stable base of operations from which it can obtain a steady flow of funding and training to plan terrorist attacks.
I won't deny your criticisms of US policy in the Middle East because it has been muddled at best and more likely nobody has any idea what they're doing. The Lawfare podcast episode 90 has an excellent portrait of the government's view from Matt Olsen, Director of the National Counterterrorism Center. The bottom line is that ISIS is not a major threat but it has the potential to become one, and right now they're in a fledgling, vulnerable state where the US can crush it early and it seems to pass the cost-benefit test to attempt to do so.
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On September 12 2014 11:47 Nyxisto wrote: Although you can clearly argue that the middle-eastern mess is a societal problem and that radical Islam is just a symptom,but there clearly is a difference between Islam, Christianity and Judaism. Even in Western countries you will find a lot of Islamic theologians that are reluctant to call jihadists out on their crap.Not to mention LGBT or women's rights issues. There is a lot of extremist thought spread in Islamic branches all over Europe, right in the most urban areas. It didn't happen by accident that an astonishing numbers of IS fighters actually comes right out of Europe, and a surprising number of them didn't even have Muslim roots. it is precisely facts like these that are troubling and difficult to ignore in the debate.
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Republicans adopting a new strategy this November:
A string of Republican candidates for Senate are supporting an issue usually associated with Democrats: increased access to contraception. They're supporting it on the road and in ads, this one from pro-life conservative Cory Gardner: In it, he says he believes "the pill ought to be available over the counter, round the clock, without a prescription." Thom Tillis and Ed Gillespie, also pro-life conservatives, have made similar statements. Some of them have been associated with state legislation to restrict abortions or with so-called "personhood" amendments that would give constitutional rights to fertilized eggs. So what gives? First of all, Republicans are in a deep hole with women voters, and polls show all voters are less likely to support candidates who restrict women's reproductive rights. Republican strategist Katie Packer Gage says the GOP needed to get out of their defensive crouch. She says when Republicans saw what happened to Mitt Romney in 2012, "where women's groups very falsely and very aggressively attacked him claiming that he wanted to do away with birth control," the party "started to say look we're going to have to play offense on this message because otherwise we're going to be totally misdefined by our opponents." Calling for an over the counter pill allows Republicans to support access to birth control while also supporting the right of corporations to avoid covering it. Getting the pill at a pharmacy without a prescription leaves insurers and employers out of the picture altogether. .... Democratic pollster Celinda Lake says Democrats should respond to Republicans with an argument about cost and fairness because insurers generally do not cover over-the-counter medicine, and the pill can cost $600 a year.
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20 Years Later, Parts Of Major Crime Bill Viewed As Terrible Mistake Twenty years ago this week, in 1994, then-President Bill Clinton signed a crime bill. It was, in effect, a long-term experiment in various ways to fight crime. The measure paid to put more cops on the beat, trained police and lawyers to investigate domestic violence, imposed tougher prison sentences and provided money for extra prisons. Clinton described his motivation to pass the 1994 Violent Crime Control Act in stark terms. "Gangs and drugs have taken over our streets and undermined our schools," he said. "Every day, we read about somebody else who has literally gotten away with murder." + Show Spoiler +And if Clinton and Congress reflected the punitive mindset of the American people, what they didn't know was that soaring murder rates and violent crime had already begun what would become a long downward turn, according to criminologists and policymakers.
Nicholas Turner is president of the Vera Institute, a nonprofit that researches crime policy. Turner took a minute this week to consider the tough-on-crime rhetoric of the 1990s.
"Criminal justice policy was very much driven by public sentiment and a political instinct to appeal to the more negative punitive elements of public sentiment rather than to be driven by the facts," he said.
And that public sentiment called for filling up the nation's prisons, a key part of the 1994 crime bill.
These days, Jeremy Travis is president of the John Jay College of Criminal Justice. But 20 years ago, he attended the signing ceremony for the crime bill — and joined the Clinton Justice Department.
"Here's the federal government coming in and saying we'll give you money if you punish people more severely, and 28 states and the District of Columbia followed the money and enacted stricter sentencing laws for violent offenses," Travis says.
But as Travis now knows all too well, there's a problem with that idea. Researchers including a National Academy of Sciences panel he led have since found only a modest relationship between incarceration and lower crime rates.
"We now know with the fullness of time that we made some terrible mistakes," Travis said. "And those mistakes were to ramp up the use of prison. And that big mistake is the one that we now, 20 years later, come to grips with. We have to look in the mirror and say, 'look what we have done.'"
Nick Turner of Vera put the human costs even more starkly.
"If you're a black baby born today, you have a 1 in 3 chance of spending some time in prison or jail," Turner said. "If you're Latino, it's a 1 in 6 chance. And if you're white, it's 1 in 17. And so coming to terms with these disparities and reversing them, I would argue, is not only a matter of fairness and justice but it's, I would argue, a matter of national security."
Talk to combatants in the long and sometimes nasty debate over the crime bill 20 years ago, and another item on the table back then looks different with hindsight too. It's a concept known as midnight basketball.
Rep. Bobby Scott, a Virginia Democrat, voted against the bill years ago, in part because it didn't do enough to support prevention programs.
In between votes in the Capitol this week, Scott reflected on the debate.
"Midnight basketball was described as paying money so that crackheads could play basketball in the middle of the night," Scott said. "What they left out was the fact that every time they put midnight basketball in a neighborhood, the crime rate plummeted. You saved more money than you spent on the midnight basketball. They left that part out."
Funding for the midnight basketball program and other prevention initiatives never fully materialized because of political fights over the bill. But today, ideas like that one win support from Republican governors who have branded their approach as "Right on Crime." They're taking money away from prisons and putting it into social programs.
Lately the Obama administration, including Vice President Joe Biden, who was the lead Senate sponsor of that 1994 bill, is embracing those very policies and supporting new legislation to reduce mandatory minimum prison terms. Link
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On September 12 2014 16:45 IgnE wrote: The only real difference between ISIS and the tyrants who preceded them is that they are engaged in a war right now, but their killing tactics, torture methods, and general demeanor are simply par for the course. The purported justification for going in to eliminate ISIS (i.e. the US has an obligation to defend the world from these demonic terrorists) is just complete horseshit, as is the media's portrayal of ISIS as a serious threat to Americans. The difference is that IS is just insane. People may find a brutal dictator disgusting but at least they can rationally understand why he is doing what he's doing. IS is just like some kind of crazy colony of killer ants, butchering everyone they can find with no apparent goal at all besides their religious fanaticism.
And they pose a serious threat to the Western world. Thousands of people fighting for IS have Western citizenship. If these people make it back here you'll have a large group of crazy people with combat experience right at home.
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There's a lot of window dressing, but essentially the point is that stability in the Middle East is vital in preventing terrorism from being exported to the United States. The US is doing this in part as a humanitarian mission but it is mostly in the fear that ISIS will establish a stable base of operations from which it can obtain a steady flow of funding and training to plan terrorist attacks.
I don't really think this makes sense. Even if they did get a 'stable base of operations' and were able to launch another 9/11 level attack we would still spend less money and lose less lives just going in and destroying them a decade from now (and actually leaving) than staying and attempting to 'prevent' such an outcome.
On it's surface this whole middle east situation feels more like feeding the military industrial complex beast than some anti-terror/humanitarian campaign.
I am far more worried about getting in a fatal crash than I am of terrorists, I mean the former is waayyyyyyyyyyy more likely to kill me than the latter.
Cerebrally one would think people in BFE US would feel the same way. The likelihood of terrorists hitting anywhere inland of the coastal states is practically nil. So I find it a bit strange for those (who are worried about federal spending [despite most of them being net 'takers' as a state]) in those areas to support wasting so much money 'fighting terrorism'.
Personally I think letting the people of the middle east fight it out on their own (excepting commitments we have already made) makes sense. If the people lose to/accept IS then we just let them get comfortable and come out in the open and we crush them like we did the Taliban. Just rinse and repeat until the people realize that they need leaders who aren't going to call for killing westerners.
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I'm trying to figure out how much I like Obama's plan. I'm not hot on the idea of getting massively involved in the Middle East again. I also like the idea of bombing ISIS with relative impunity. However, I have a hard time believing that we're going to accomplish anything meaningful without a significant ground presence. Obama is undoubtedly lying about American troops not being used on the ground. There will be special ops kill teams all over the place. But I think something more closely resembling an actual occupation will ultimately be necessary. Maybe the Iraqis will be able to do the job if they get their shit together with our help, but boy oh boy did they look bad over the summer.
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