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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
July 30 2014 00:38 GMT
#23881
On July 30 2014 09:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 30 2014 08:54 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On July 30 2014 08:21 GreenHorizons wrote:
On July 30 2014 07:59 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On July 30 2014 06:57 GreenHorizons wrote:
On July 30 2014 06:19 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Assumes $50 / ton carbon cost:

[image loading]

+ Show Spoiler +
SUBSIDIES for renewable energy are one of the most contested areas of public policy. Billions are spent nursing the infant solar- and wind-power industries in the hope that they will one day undercut fossil fuels and drastically reduce the amount of carbon dioxide being put into the atmosphere. The idea seems to be working. Photovoltaic panels have halved in price since 2008 and the capital cost of a solar-power plant—of which panels account for slightly under half—fell by 22% in 2010-13. In a few sunny places, solar power is providing electricity to the grid as cheaply as conventional coal- or gas-fired power plants.

But whereas the cost of a solar panel is easy to calculate, the cost of electricity is harder to assess. It depends not only on the fuel used, but also on the cost of capital (power plants take years to build and last for decades), how much of the time a plant operates, and whether it generates power at times of peak demand. To take account of all this, economists use “levelised costs”—the net present value of all costs (capital and operating) of a generating unit over its life cycle, divided by the number of megawatt-hours of electricity it is expected to supply.

The trouble, as Paul Joskow of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology has pointed out, is that levelised costs do not take account of the costs of intermittency.* Wind power is not generated on a calm day, nor solar power at night, so conventional power plants must be kept on standby—but are not included in the levelised cost of renewables. Electricity demand also varies during the day in ways that the supply from wind and solar generation may not match, so even if renewable forms of energy have the same levelised cost as conventional ones, the value of the power they produce may be lower. In short, levelised costs are poor at comparing different forms of power generation.

To get around that problem Charles Frank of the Brookings Institution, a think-tank, uses a cost-benefit analysis to rank various forms of energy. The costs include those of building and running power plants, and those associated with particular technologies, such as balancing the electricity system when wind or solar plants go offline or disposing of spent nuclear-fuel rods. The benefits of renewable energy include the value of the fuel that would have been used if coal- or gas-fired plants had produced the same amount of electricity and the amount of carbon-dioxide emissions that they avoid. The table summarises these costs and benefits. It makes wind and solar power look far more expensive than they appear on the basis of levelised costs.

Mr Frank took four sorts of zero-carbon energy (solar, wind, hydroelectric and nuclear), plus a low-carbon sort (an especially efficient type of gas-burning plant), and compared them with various sorts of conventional power. Obviously, low- and no-carbon power plants do not avoid emissions when they are not working, though they do incur some costs. So nuclear-power plants, which run at about 90% of capacity, avoid almost four times as much CO{-2} per unit of capacity as do wind turbines, which run at about 25%; they avoid six times as much as solar arrays do. If you assume a carbon price of $50 a tonne—way over most actual prices—nuclear energy avoids over $400,000-worth of carbon emissions per megawatt (MW) of capacity, compared with only $69,500 for solar and $107,000 for wind.

Nuclear power plants, however, are vastly expensive. A new plant at Hinkley Point, in south-west England, for example, is likely to cost at least $27 billion. They are also uninsurable commercially. Yet the fact that they run around the clock makes them only 75% more expensive to build and run per MW of capacity than a solar-power plant, Mr Frank reckons.

To determine the overall cost or benefit, though, the cost of the fossil-fuel plants that have to be kept hanging around for the times when solar and wind plants stand idle must also be factored in. Mr Frank calls these “avoided capacity costs”—costs that would not have been incurred had the green-energy plants not been built. Thus a 1MW wind farm running at about 25% of capacity can replace only about 0.23MW of a coal plant running at 90% of capacity. Solar farms run at only about 15% of capacity, so they can replace even less. Seven solar plants or four wind farms would thus be needed to produce the same amount of electricity over time as a similar-sized coal-fired plant. And all that extra solar and wind capacity is expensive.

A levelised playing field
If all the costs and benefits are totted up using Mr Frank’s calculation, solar power is by far the most expensive way of reducing carbon emissions. It costs $189,000 to replace 1MW per year of power from coal. Wind is the next most expensive. Hydropower provides a modest net benefit. But the most cost-effective zero-emission technology is nuclear power. The pattern is similar if 1MW of gas-fired capacity is displaced instead of coal. And all this assumes a carbon price of $50 a tonne. Using actual carbon prices (below $10 in Europe) makes solar and wind look even worse. The carbon price would have to rise to $185 a tonne before solar power shows a net benefit.

There are, of course, all sorts of reasons to choose one form of energy over another, including emissions of pollutants other than CO2 and fear of nuclear accidents. Mr Frank does not look at these. Still, his findings have profound policy implications. At the moment, most rich countries and China subsidise solar and wind power to help stem climate change. Yet this is the most expensive way of reducing greenhouse-gas emissions. Meanwhile Germany and Japan, among others, are mothballing nuclear plants, which (in terms of carbon abatement) are cheaper. The implication of Mr Frank’s research is clear: governments should target emissions reductions from any source rather than focus on boosting certain kinds of renewable energy.

Link

Link to paper.



Hmmm. Couldn't help but notice the paper doesn't say anything about nuclear waste storage and disposal? It seems they looked at the damage from carbon emissions but not any of the other environmental costs to the various sources (as they kind of mention at the end of your quote).

Solar is the obvious way to go it's just a matter of developing the technology. The sun provides more energy to earth in a day than we use in a year so it's kind of obvious to me it's the most sensible way to power the world in our future. Seems ass backward to try to plan to burn new/different stuff (that we know is limited) for energy when we have a giant (practically unlimited) furnace constantly bombarding us with energy.

Wish we could go back in time and spend 2 trillion on Solar research, or working on a new grid, instead of a war in Iraq.

Wish we could go back in time and spend the solar subsidy money on R&D instead, which would be a good idea once the subsidies expire in 2016.

Radiation fears make nuclear a tough issue, but that's a shame really. Nuclear could fill an important role in the energy mix: it's always on (unlike solar and wind), doesn't create CO2 and we can get the fuel from domestic sources.

I agree I prefer R&D over the style of subsidies we've used.

Not just radiation fears but think about it like this. If more nuclear reactors are built here and around the world, it becomes even harder to try to prevent Iran or IS from building Nuclear power (they have to transition too) And considering how we secure our nuclear weapons, it's probably not a great idea to create more potential nuclear disasters around the world if we don't absolutely have to.

If we dedicated the American engine to developing breakthroughs in solar it would be the easiest sale in history to get the middle east and plenty of the rest of the world to buy the technology.

I have no question if we don't turn to something like solar we'll be here again 20 years later, again, asking why did we spend trillions more in another war in the middle east to protect oil we should of stopped needing decades ago?

One of the fundamental problems with solar is that it's not always producing electricity. So unless something radical changes, like mass battery storage becomes feasible, we're going to need to rely on more than just solar.

Nuclear power is a bit different from nuclear weapons. There's a lot of technology overlap for sure, but to my knowledge you can't turn a nuclear power plant into a nuclear bomb.

I'm not sure what you mean by "if we don't turn to something like solar" - we've been turned to solar for decades. I also don't see oil becoming obsolete for at least a couple generations.



Well radical advance in batteries/energy storage doubles for solar and electric cars (although the current actual over lap is limited) so I kind of lump that in with solar/energy R&D. The current solar plants have made significant advances in storing the solar energy on the massive scale with salt, and the smaller car type versions could be enlarged to make them part of typical homes.

Well no, nuclear reactors don't make good traditional bombs, but they more than do the job of the suitcase nukes we've been so terrified of for the past decade+. Not to mention they provide resources that would be useful in making said suitcase dirty bomb.

I'll consider us turned toward solar when instead of 'drill baby drill' we hear chants of 'solar, solar' from the RNC.

Yeah it's *possible* that large scale energy storage will work (cheaply), but that's neither a current reality nor a future given. So we can't base public policy around it.

I don't think dirty bomb fears are that big of a concern. You yourself have argued that terrorism fears are over-blown.
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4908 Posts
July 30 2014 00:48 GMT
#23882
It seems to me that nuclear would be fine- all this is intermediate. No one is suggesting that we pop up reactors everywhere and say "screw it!" to all future technologies, it's just that we don't spend massive amounts on renewable energy before it's ready. Viewing the situation as static is one of the most obnoxious parts of the whole discussion- technologies advance with or without government subsidy, just along different time frames.

And battery storage is nice and all, but the size/energy ratio for them is still prohibitive. Though again, there is a fair bit of research being done on energy storage at this very moment.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
Sbrubbles
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil5776 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-30 01:46:15
July 30 2014 01:44 GMT
#23883
On July 30 2014 08:54 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 30 2014 08:21 GreenHorizons wrote:
On July 30 2014 07:59 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On July 30 2014 06:57 GreenHorizons wrote:
On July 30 2014 06:19 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Assumes $50 / ton carbon cost:

[image loading]

+ Show Spoiler +
SUBSIDIES for renewable energy are one of the most contested areas of public policy. Billions are spent nursing the infant solar- and wind-power industries in the hope that they will one day undercut fossil fuels and drastically reduce the amount of carbon dioxide being put into the atmosphere. The idea seems to be working. Photovoltaic panels have halved in price since 2008 and the capital cost of a solar-power plant—of which panels account for slightly under half—fell by 22% in 2010-13. In a few sunny places, solar power is providing electricity to the grid as cheaply as conventional coal- or gas-fired power plants.

But whereas the cost of a solar panel is easy to calculate, the cost of electricity is harder to assess. It depends not only on the fuel used, but also on the cost of capital (power plants take years to build and last for decades), how much of the time a plant operates, and whether it generates power at times of peak demand. To take account of all this, economists use “levelised costs”—the net present value of all costs (capital and operating) of a generating unit over its life cycle, divided by the number of megawatt-hours of electricity it is expected to supply.

The trouble, as Paul Joskow of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology has pointed out, is that levelised costs do not take account of the costs of intermittency.* Wind power is not generated on a calm day, nor solar power at night, so conventional power plants must be kept on standby—but are not included in the levelised cost of renewables. Electricity demand also varies during the day in ways that the supply from wind and solar generation may not match, so even if renewable forms of energy have the same levelised cost as conventional ones, the value of the power they produce may be lower. In short, levelised costs are poor at comparing different forms of power generation.

To get around that problem Charles Frank of the Brookings Institution, a think-tank, uses a cost-benefit analysis to rank various forms of energy. The costs include those of building and running power plants, and those associated with particular technologies, such as balancing the electricity system when wind or solar plants go offline or disposing of spent nuclear-fuel rods. The benefits of renewable energy include the value of the fuel that would have been used if coal- or gas-fired plants had produced the same amount of electricity and the amount of carbon-dioxide emissions that they avoid. The table summarises these costs and benefits. It makes wind and solar power look far more expensive than they appear on the basis of levelised costs.

Mr Frank took four sorts of zero-carbon energy (solar, wind, hydroelectric and nuclear), plus a low-carbon sort (an especially efficient type of gas-burning plant), and compared them with various sorts of conventional power. Obviously, low- and no-carbon power plants do not avoid emissions when they are not working, though they do incur some costs. So nuclear-power plants, which run at about 90% of capacity, avoid almost four times as much CO{-2} per unit of capacity as do wind turbines, which run at about 25%; they avoid six times as much as solar arrays do. If you assume a carbon price of $50 a tonne—way over most actual prices—nuclear energy avoids over $400,000-worth of carbon emissions per megawatt (MW) of capacity, compared with only $69,500 for solar and $107,000 for wind.

Nuclear power plants, however, are vastly expensive. A new plant at Hinkley Point, in south-west England, for example, is likely to cost at least $27 billion. They are also uninsurable commercially. Yet the fact that they run around the clock makes them only 75% more expensive to build and run per MW of capacity than a solar-power plant, Mr Frank reckons.

To determine the overall cost or benefit, though, the cost of the fossil-fuel plants that have to be kept hanging around for the times when solar and wind plants stand idle must also be factored in. Mr Frank calls these “avoided capacity costs”—costs that would not have been incurred had the green-energy plants not been built. Thus a 1MW wind farm running at about 25% of capacity can replace only about 0.23MW of a coal plant running at 90% of capacity. Solar farms run at only about 15% of capacity, so they can replace even less. Seven solar plants or four wind farms would thus be needed to produce the same amount of electricity over time as a similar-sized coal-fired plant. And all that extra solar and wind capacity is expensive.

A levelised playing field
If all the costs and benefits are totted up using Mr Frank’s calculation, solar power is by far the most expensive way of reducing carbon emissions. It costs $189,000 to replace 1MW per year of power from coal. Wind is the next most expensive. Hydropower provides a modest net benefit. But the most cost-effective zero-emission technology is nuclear power. The pattern is similar if 1MW of gas-fired capacity is displaced instead of coal. And all this assumes a carbon price of $50 a tonne. Using actual carbon prices (below $10 in Europe) makes solar and wind look even worse. The carbon price would have to rise to $185 a tonne before solar power shows a net benefit.

There are, of course, all sorts of reasons to choose one form of energy over another, including emissions of pollutants other than CO2 and fear of nuclear accidents. Mr Frank does not look at these. Still, his findings have profound policy implications. At the moment, most rich countries and China subsidise solar and wind power to help stem climate change. Yet this is the most expensive way of reducing greenhouse-gas emissions. Meanwhile Germany and Japan, among others, are mothballing nuclear plants, which (in terms of carbon abatement) are cheaper. The implication of Mr Frank’s research is clear: governments should target emissions reductions from any source rather than focus on boosting certain kinds of renewable energy.

Link

Link to paper.



Hmmm. Couldn't help but notice the paper doesn't say anything about nuclear waste storage and disposal? It seems they looked at the damage from carbon emissions but not any of the other environmental costs to the various sources (as they kind of mention at the end of your quote).

Solar is the obvious way to go it's just a matter of developing the technology. The sun provides more energy to earth in a day than we use in a year so it's kind of obvious to me it's the most sensible way to power the world in our future. Seems ass backward to try to plan to burn new/different stuff (that we know is limited) for energy when we have a giant (practically unlimited) furnace constantly bombarding us with energy.

Wish we could go back in time and spend 2 trillion on Solar research, or working on a new grid, instead of a war in Iraq.

Wish we could go back in time and spend the solar subsidy money on R&D instead, which would be a good idea once the subsidies expire in 2016.

Radiation fears make nuclear a tough issue, but that's a shame really. Nuclear could fill an important role in the energy mix: it's always on (unlike solar and wind), doesn't create CO2 and we can get the fuel from domestic sources.

I agree I prefer R&D over the style of subsidies we've used.

Not just radiation fears but think about it like this. If more nuclear reactors are built here and around the world, it becomes even harder to try to prevent Iran or IS from building Nuclear power (they have to transition too) And considering how we secure our nuclear weapons, it's probably not a great idea to create more potential nuclear disasters around the world if we don't absolutely have to.

If we dedicated the American engine to developing breakthroughs in solar it would be the easiest sale in history to get the middle east and plenty of the rest of the world to buy the technology.

I have no question if we don't turn to something like solar we'll be here again 20 years later, again, asking why did we spend trillions more in another war in the middle east to protect oil we should of stopped needing decades ago?

One of the fundamental problems with solar is that it's not always producing electricity. So unless something radical changes, like mass battery storage becomes feasible, we're going to need to rely on more than just solar.

Nuclear power is a bit different from nuclear weapons. There's a lot of technology overlap for sure, but to my knowledge you can't turn a nuclear power plant into a nuclear bomb.

I'm not sure what you mean by "if we don't turn to something like solar" - we've been turned to solar for decades. I also don't see oil becoming obsolete for at least a couple generations.


Even with somewhat appropriate technology I'm not sure mass battery storage would be an option (seems like way too much storage would be necessary). Solar is a good acessory power generator, but it requires excess capacity in "guaranteed" power sources (fossil fuels, nuclear and hydro) in case the weather doesn't cooperate.

I agree with you on nuclear power, it deserves more attention. Though obviously non-negligible, nuclear waste storage concerns are overshadowed by global warming concerns imo.
Bora Pain minha porra!
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
July 30 2014 01:48 GMT
#23884
Supercapacitor energy storage anyone?
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Livelovedie
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States492 Posts
July 30 2014 01:48 GMT
#23885
Why would we replace one nonrenewable fuel source with another? Sure the problem might be solved in our lifetime, but its not close to the final solution.
Sbrubbles
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil5776 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-30 02:00:30
July 30 2014 01:55 GMT
#23886
On July 30 2014 10:48 Livelovedie wrote:
Why would we replace one nonrenewable fuel source with another? Sure the problem might be solved in our lifetime, but its not close to the final solution.


It's a matter of what problem you view as priority. (Possible) energy scarcity is tomorrow's problem, to be dealt with by tommorow's knowledge and tools, while carbon emission is today's problem.

Also, if energy scarcity does indeed happen, it will be a global economic problem, but not an environmental one. Much less worrisome.
Bora Pain minha porra!
rod409
Profile Joined September 2011
United States36 Posts
July 30 2014 01:58 GMT
#23887
Here is the paper that original graphic is based on:link

The analysis assumes 1 MW of nominal power and uses the capacity factor for how much of an older (coal or gas) power plant it will replace. It is designed in a way so that no matter what price you put on carbon emissions gas would be better than solar or wind because those two can replace only ~15% of coal, which is ridiculous. A proper analysis would assume 1 MW of actual generation and increase capital costs appropriately.

I also can't figure out how the capital costs are calculated. None of them match with EIA data and all seem like over estimates. I also disagree with nuclear plants having a lifetime of 40 years, it should be 60. There is no talk about degradation in solar panels, but maybe that is factored into operational costs, I would have to read the EIA report. The paper generally sucks and does not give enough info about methodology.

To you guys you would rather have R&D over subsidies, you make posts that solar costs have decreased so much over the years yet you ignore how gov subsidies spurred this on and lots of cost decreases come from things that can't be figured out in a university lab, like manufacturing improvements, better supply chains, economies of scale etc.

To hopes on nuclear, it has its own set of problems. Current designs are not sustainable long term and new generation plants are not ready. Nuclear is also unsuitable for loading or peaking power. France gets away with this partly by having something like 70% nuclear generation but that is not possible for everyone to do.
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4908 Posts
July 30 2014 02:11 GMT
#23888
On July 30 2014 10:48 IgnE wrote:
Supercapacitor energy storage anyone?


Still a work in progress with a long way to go. One day though, I have no doubt.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
Millitron
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2611 Posts
July 30 2014 02:16 GMT
#23889
On July 30 2014 10:48 Livelovedie wrote:
Why would we replace one nonrenewable fuel source with another? Sure the problem might be solved in our lifetime, but its not close to the final solution.

Thorium might be non-renewable, but there's just so much of it running out will simply not happen, not for hundreds of years anyway. It'll buy plenty of time to get renewables looking practical on a massive scale.



I know it's a long video, but I highly recommend you watch it. He mentions in it that a single average thorium mine produces enough thorium in a year to cover the entire world's current energy demand for a year.

He does leave out the fact that a Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactor needs Liquid Fluoride, which is close to the nastiest stuff around. Its highly corrosive, very toxic, and spontaneously creates hydrofluoric acid on contact with water. But its only chemically nasty, and we have lots of chemical engineers who are used to working with dangerous chemicals.
Who called in the fleet?
Sbrubbles
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil5776 Posts
July 30 2014 02:17 GMT
#23890
On July 30 2014 10:58 rod409 wrote:
Nuclear is also unsuitable for loading or peaking power. France gets away with this partly by having something like 70% nuclear generation but that is not possible for everyone to do.


Can you explain, I don't think I understand the France example. I agree that nuclear power plants generally have to be at an "always on" state which is not ideal for peaking power, but is a problem that can be worked around with auxiliary power resources so long as it's not too prevalant. So having 70% power generation like France is not something that would solve this problem, but make it worse (though evidently they found their solution).
Bora Pain minha porra!
rod409
Profile Joined September 2011
United States36 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-30 02:32:35
July 30 2014 02:30 GMT
#23891
On July 30 2014 11:17 Sbrubbles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 30 2014 10:58 rod409 wrote:
Nuclear is also unsuitable for loading or peaking power. France gets away with this partly by having something like 70% nuclear generation but that is not possible for everyone to do.


Can you explain, I don't think I understand the France example. I agree that nuclear power plants generally have to be at an "always on" state which is not ideal for peaking power, but is a problem that can be worked around with auxiliary power resources so long as it's not too prevalant. So having 70% power generation like France is not something that would solve this problem, but make it worse (though evidently they found their solution).

In a nuclear reactor you can slow down the fission process, I am not a nuclear engineer but I know one way is to use boron as a neutron moderator. However this works early in its fuel cycle, for example lets say the first 6 months is good in a 1.5 year cycle. This means you can adjust power output in one power plant for a limited time. If you have many power plants you can time things so you can adjust output over some at a time so having more plants supporting each other can work, this is what France does.

There is also cost. When you see things looking at cost of power they often assume a plant running at 85-90% capacity. If the plant runs at 30% capacity like a loading gas plant, then spending a ton of capital on nuclear (it is a capital intensive power plant) but you only get a little out of it. Now France doesn't have its own major sources of coal or gas so for them nuclear makes sense economically as fuel costs from importing is not as bad.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
July 30 2014 03:08 GMT
#23892
On July 30 2014 10:58 rod409 wrote:
Here is the paper that original graphic is based on:link

The analysis assumes 1 MW of nominal power and uses the capacity factor for how much of an older (coal or gas) power plant it will replace. It is designed in a way so that no matter what price you put on carbon emissions gas would be better than solar or wind because those two can replace only ~15% of coal, which is ridiculous. A proper analysis would assume 1 MW of actual generation and increase capital costs appropriately.

I also can't figure out how the capital costs are calculated. None of them match with EIA data and all seem like over estimates. I also disagree with nuclear plants having a lifetime of 40 years, it should be 60. There is no talk about degradation in solar panels, but maybe that is factored into operational costs, I would have to read the EIA report. The paper generally sucks and does not give enough info about methodology.

To you guys you would rather have R&D over subsidies, you make posts that solar costs have decreased so much over the years yet you ignore how gov subsidies spurred this on and lots of cost decreases come from things that can't be figured out in a university lab, like manufacturing improvements, better supply chains, economies of scale etc.

To hopes on nuclear, it has its own set of problems. Current designs are not sustainable long term and new generation plants are not ready. Nuclear is also unsuitable for loading or peaking power. France gets away with this partly by having something like 70% nuclear generation but that is not possible for everyone to do.

The capacity factor is to adjust for the difference between listed capacity and actual capacity. The end result should be the same as using actual generation figures.

The EIA and the Brookings paper use different terms for capital costs. The EIA uses $ / MWh, and the Brookings paper uses cost per MW per year. If you put them into the same terms they're about the same, if I'm not mistaken.

I'm aware of the cost savings on the manufacturing and distribution side of things, but I see those as more or less a given with a time lag and so not particularly subsidy worthy.

Personally I think more nuclear for base-load with renewables on top of that and gas to fill in the peak demand would be a good, basic strategy.
rod409
Profile Joined September 2011
United States36 Posts
July 30 2014 04:39 GMT
#23893
On July 30 2014 12:08 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 30 2014 10:58 rod409 wrote:
Here is the paper that original graphic is based on:link

The analysis assumes 1 MW of nominal power and uses the capacity factor for how much of an older (coal or gas) power plant it will replace. It is designed in a way so that no matter what price you put on carbon emissions gas would be better than solar or wind because those two can replace only ~15% of coal, which is ridiculous. A proper analysis would assume 1 MW of actual generation and increase capital costs appropriately.

I also can't figure out how the capital costs are calculated. None of them match with EIA data and all seem like over estimates. I also disagree with nuclear plants having a lifetime of 40 years, it should be 60. There is no talk about degradation in solar panels, but maybe that is factored into operational costs, I would have to read the EIA report. The paper generally sucks and does not give enough info about methodology.

To you guys you would rather have R&D over subsidies, you make posts that solar costs have decreased so much over the years yet you ignore how gov subsidies spurred this on and lots of cost decreases come from things that can't be figured out in a university lab, like manufacturing improvements, better supply chains, economies of scale etc.

To hopes on nuclear, it has its own set of problems. Current designs are not sustainable long term and new generation plants are not ready. Nuclear is also unsuitable for loading or peaking power. France gets away with this partly by having something like 70% nuclear generation but that is not possible for everyone to do.

The capacity factor is to adjust for the difference between listed capacity and actual capacity. The end result should be the same as using actual generation figures.

The EIA and the Brookings paper use different terms for capital costs. The EIA uses $ / MWh, and the Brookings paper uses cost per MW per year. If you put them into the same terms they're about the same, if I'm not mistaken.

I'm aware of the cost savings on the manufacturing and distribution side of things, but I see those as more or less a given with a time lag and so not particularly subsidy worthy.

Personally I think more nuclear for base-load with renewable on top of that and gas to fill in the peak demand would be a good, basic strategy.


The capacity factor isn't the problem, the problem is forcing only a limited replacement of coal so solar and wind can't replace all emissions, putting a carbon price at 1 billion per ton would still yield gas as better than solar or wind.

I made a mistake in saying the number don't match with EIA, overnight costs are the same. My issue was how they decided to calculate the annualized cost. I just checked based on the Brooking's numbers and it looks like they use a discount rate between 7-8%. I think this is too high, unless the government isn't backing the loans or regulating less. They should just say what they are doing and not force me to figure it out.
cheese sandwich
Profile Joined July 2014
Russian Federation194 Posts
July 30 2014 05:23 GMT
#23894
Can somebody explain to me why the US supports Saudi Arabia in the Middle East other than oil. From what I've seen the Saudi's are pretty sketchy.
coverpunch
Profile Joined December 2011
United States2093 Posts
July 30 2014 06:05 GMT
#23895
On July 30 2014 14:23 cheese sandwich wrote:
Can somebody explain to me why the US supports Saudi Arabia in the Middle East other than oil. From what I've seen the Saudi's are pretty sketchy.

Oil is a pretty good reason to support a regime. The rest of the region has taught us over the decades that we could do far worse than a despotic but stable monarchy.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23664 Posts
July 30 2014 06:31 GMT
#23896
On July 30 2014 15:05 coverpunch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 30 2014 14:23 cheese sandwich wrote:
Can somebody explain to me why the US supports Saudi Arabia in the Middle East other than oil. From what I've seen the Saudi's are pretty sketchy.

Oil is a pretty good reason to support a regime. The rest of the region has taught us over the decades that we could do far worse than a despotic but stable monarchy.



Worse yeah, but it is definitely talking out of both sides of our mouth on women's rights. We should of been moving away from Saudi oil decades ago though.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Yoav
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1874 Posts
July 30 2014 06:39 GMT
#23897
On July 30 2014 14:23 cheese sandwich wrote:
Can somebody explain to me why the US supports Saudi Arabia in the Middle East other than oil. From what I've seen the Saudi's are pretty sketchy.


Because no matter how many times we re-tell the Faust story, we will never learn.
coverpunch
Profile Joined December 2011
United States2093 Posts
July 30 2014 06:42 GMT
#23898
In principle, maybe. But look at the history of the region in the postwar period and there's always a good reason to be very afraid of killing this particular golden goose. Even today, we're far happier with the House of Saud than we would be with Hamas or ISIS calling the shots. We can live with a fair amount of hypocrisy and corruption when we're talking about the lifeblood of modern society and commerce.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
July 30 2014 06:45 GMT
#23899
On July 30 2014 15:05 coverpunch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 30 2014 14:23 cheese sandwich wrote:
Can somebody explain to me why the US supports Saudi Arabia in the Middle East other than oil. From what I've seen the Saudi's are pretty sketchy.

Oil is a pretty good reason to support a regime. The rest of the region has taught us over the decades that we could do far worse than a despotic but stable monarchy.


Please elaborate. Are you saying that the US doesn't actually care about bringing freedom to people across the world? That it only wants despots who pay it lip service and give its businessmen unfettered capital access, while extracting resources?
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
July 30 2014 06:47 GMT
#23900
On July 30 2014 15:42 coverpunch wrote:
In principle, maybe. But look at the history of the region in the postwar period and there's always a good reason to be very afraid of killing this particular golden goose. Even today, we're far happier with the House of Saud than we would be with Hamas or ISIS calling the shots. We can live with a fair amount of hypocrisy and corruption when we're talking about the lifeblood of modern society and commerce.


So why did we go into Iraq to oust Saddam Hussein again? Was the history not clear before 2003? If you are going to take this incredibly cynical outlook it seems you need to reevaluate some of your other positions that are based, at least, on a United States of America with moral authority.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
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