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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
May 22 2014 18:32 GMT
#21401
I don't think ~$7,000 per patient in a cancer drug trial is very expensive. I thought you were referring to the hundred million or billion dollar phase III expenses of blockbuster drugs that we aren't sure even work in the first place.

And obviously go single-payer on healthcare. That's a no-brainer.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
May 22 2014 18:46 GMT
#21402
Two more arrests have been made in connection with the photographing of U.S. Sen. Thad Cochran's (R-MS) wife, Rose, who is patient in a Madison County nursing home.

Mark Mayfield, a member of the board of directors for the Central Mississippi Tea Party, was arrested Thursday, according to the Clarion Ledger of Mississippi.

At around 2:34 PM EDT Clarion-Ledger editor Sam Hall tweeted that the second arrest on Thursday in connection to the "Constitutional Clayton" photographing case was Richard Sager of Laurel.

Clayton Kelly was arrested Friday and faces felony charges of photographing or filming another without permission where there is expectation of privacy and exploitation of a vulnerable adult, which carries up to a 10-year sentence. Kelly wanted to use the photograph of Cochran's wife in an anti-Cochran video.

Kelly supports state Sen. Chris McDaniel, Cochran's tea party primary challenger. Mayfield appears to be a McDaniel supporter as well and, according to the Clarion Ledger's Sam Hall, contributed $500 to McDaniel and served as an active volunteer on his campaign.

Authorities claim Kelly photographed Rose Cochran at St. Catherine's nursing home in Madison, where she is bedridden and suffering from progressive dementia. Kelly, a political blogger and McDaniel supporter, allegedly used the photo in a video he posted online.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
May 22 2014 20:57 GMT
#21403
COLAs on a diet

PUBLIC sector pensions in America are being cut, but in a subtle way. The latest report from the Center for Retirement Research (what would we do without it?) at Boston College shows that many states have managed to cut the cost of living adjustment, or COLA as it is known.

Whole article: + Show Spoiler +
A lack of inflation linking savaged the benefits of British pensioners, particularly in the 1970s. Even at 4% inflation, prices will double within 18 years, within the life expectancy of males and females retiring at 65. In other words, living standards will halve in such a scenario.

Most national govenment pensions (including the US's Social Security) try to offer inflation-linking to offset this risk. But around 25-30% of state and local government workers are not covered by the Social Security system, so the loss of this benefit could lead to substantial hardship, particularly in later years.

The problem for states and local governments is that defined benefit (final salary) pensions are easy to promise but expensive to deliver and the full bill takes decades to come due. A combination of buoyant equity markets and generous accoutnig assumptions made the promise seem fairly cheap in the 1980s and 1990s. And offering better benefits was a way of rewarding workers without pushing up the immediate pay bill (a move that might require higher taxes).

Cutting pensions is hard work. Many states have switched new employees to defined contribution plans, where the cost is strictly limited (there is no pension promise, and thus no shortfall to make up). But that does nothing to cut the cost of promises that have already been made. And courts have tended to rule that the benefits of existing employees are protected under contract law and thus cannot be reduced; join the workforce at 18 and the promise made by the employer must still be enforced at age 90.

One might think that such legal protection might apply to COLAs, but it seems not. The CRR says that of the 17 states that have reduced COLAs, 12 have been challenged in court. The courts have ruled in nine cases and have upheld cuts in all but one case. The CRR writes that

The main rationale for allowing the COLA cut is that COLAs are not considered to be a contractual right. For example, in Colorado, where the decision is currently under appeal, the judge found that the plaintiffs had no vested contract right to a specific COLA amount for life and that the plaintiffs could have no reasonable expectation of a specific COLA amount for life given that the General Assembly has changed the COLA formula numerous times over the past 40 years
Some changes in the COLA were surely overdue. Eight states had COLAs that were fixed at 2.5-3.5% a year regardless of the rate of inflation; in low inflation years, such as this one, that means a real increase in pension entitlement. Three of the states linked future COLA increases to the CPI, a perfectly sensible reform. Other states have COLAs linked to the CPI but with a cap; some have reduced the cap. At current low inflation rates, that won't hurt pensioners much (although, by the same token, it won't help the funding status of the plan much).

Some states have eliminated the COLA for a set period or for the forseeable future. These include New Jersey where a committee will be formed to determine whether the COLA can be brought back if the plan becomes 80% funded. As the CRR drily remarks

Since the state has allowed funding to decline since the legislation, the prospect of 80% funding is very unlikely
Cutting the COLA out completely can help a lot. The CRR estimates that eliminating a 2% COLA reduces lifetime benefits by 15-17%. And states probably need cuts of this magnitude. It takes a while for the figures in state pension plans to get updated (and the accounting is all wrong as mentioned before). But one can get an idea of the funding pressures from the private sector. After a good year in 2013, a lot of ground has been lost, largely because bond yields have fallen. According to Mercer, the pension plans of S&P 1500 companies have risen from $103 billion to $360 billion so far this year, leaving a funding ratio of 84%.

But is this the fairest way of cutting pension costs? The main worry is about people on low incomes, particularly those in state plans without social security. Better to have people retire later and to move to career average benefits, particuarly as final salary benefits mean that a few employees get huge and very costly retirement incomes (see the 12,200 Californians with six-figure pensions). But such approaches may not be legally possible; COLA cuts are the only weapon states can use.

Link

Also, a link to the referenced report.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
May 22 2014 23:45 GMT
#21404
Cutting pensions just another form of wealth extraction from people with little wealth to those who don't want to pay more in taxes. It's really a travesty.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
May 23 2014 00:22 GMT
#21405
In California, the problem is public employee unions extracting lavish pensions with their political clout, and continuing demanding the same and more as the state sinks. $71 bil shortfall just for teachers, $100bil for the rest. Too few payments in for what they take out. So sometimes, it's just union bosses with politicians in their back pocket bankrupting the state. It's not always some little guy powerless against the mean rich people.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
May 23 2014 00:39 GMT
#21406
On May 23 2014 09:22 Danglars wrote:
In California, the problem is public employee unions extracting lavish pensions with their political clout, and continuing demanding the same and more as the state sinks. $71 bil shortfall just for teachers, $100bil for the rest. Too few payments in for what they take out. So sometimes, it's just union bosses with politicians in their back pocket bankrupting the state. It's not always some little guy powerless against the mean rich people.


Oh yes,public teachers! Widely known as the most vampiric group of today's society.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
May 23 2014 00:51 GMT
#21407
Oh right, "lavish pensions." Pensions bargained for under a contract-based system between two equal parties. It's really disgusting how you can come in here and say bullshit like that when everyone knows that if we were talking about other business contracts that involved far more "lavish" compensation you would defend to the death the right of the entity to collect its contracted due. Like Wall Street bonuses after 2008, for example. Perhaps a bunch of Schwarzenegger-approved tax cuts over the last decade were short-sighted? Perhaps the government of California needs to collect more in taxes?

Arguing that pensions, which thousands of people are relying on as the primary source of income into their old age, need to be cut is just galling. Contracts and negotiation are sacred when it comes to the rich and powerful, but lower taxes take precedence over well-earned pension plans for the middle class. Mendacity at its finest.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25484 Posts
May 23 2014 00:55 GMT
#21408
Anything pre-agreed in terms of pensions or public sector remuneration, fucking honour it . Tone back future arrangements but sorry a contract is a contract.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23250 Posts
May 23 2014 01:07 GMT
#21409
On May 23 2014 09:51 IgnE wrote:
Oh right, "lavish pensions." Pensions bargained for under a contract-based system between two equal parties. It's really disgusting how you can come in here and say bullshit like that when everyone knows that if we were talking about other business contracts that involved far more "lavish" compensation you would defend to the death the right of the entity to collect its contracted due. Like Wall Street bonuses after 2008, for example. Perhaps a bunch of Schwarzenegger-approved tax cuts over the last decade were short-sighted? Perhaps the government of California needs to collect more in taxes?

Arguing that pensions, which thousands of people are relying on as the primary source of income into their old age, need to be cut is just galling. Contracts and negotiation are sacred when it comes to the rich and powerful, but lower taxes take precedence over well-earned pension plans for the middle class. Mendacity at its finest.



I know it's pretty disgusting...

Let's alter decades old contracted obligations... unless they are bonuses paid to criminals from tax payer money...in which case they 'earned' it and contract law is a foundational premise of our nation.

Of course he also just defended Voter Suppression laws too, so at least his perspective is consistently disgusting when it comes to stuff like this.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
May 23 2014 01:12 GMT
#21410
On May 23 2014 09:51 IgnE wrote:
Oh right, "lavish pensions." Pensions bargained for under a contract-based system between two equal parties. It's really disgusting how you can come in here and say bullshit like that when everyone knows that if we were talking about other business contracts that involved far more "lavish" compensation you would defend to the death the right of the entity to collect its contracted due. Like Wall Street bonuses after 2008, for example. Perhaps a bunch of Schwarzenegger-approved tax cuts over the last decade were short-sighted? Perhaps the government of California needs to collect more in taxes?

Arguing that pensions, which thousands of people are relying on as the primary source of income into their old age, need to be cut is just galling. Contracts and negotiation are sacred when it comes to the rich and powerful, but lower taxes take precedence over well-earned pension plans for the middle class. Mendacity at its finest.

The contracts are being enforced. COLAs are being cut when COLAs are not in the contract:

And courts have tended to rule that the benefits of existing employees are protected under contract law and thus cannot be reduced; join the workforce at 18 and the promise made by the employer must still be enforced at age 90.

One might think that such legal protection might apply to COLAs, but it seems not. The CRR says that of the 17 states that have reduced COLAs, 12 have been challenged in court. The courts have ruled in nine cases and have upheld cuts in all but one case. The CRR writes that

The main rationale for allowing the COLA cut is that COLAs are not considered to be a contractual right. For example, in Colorado, where the decision is currently under appeal, the judge found that the plaintiffs had no vested contract right to a specific COLA amount for life and that the plaintiffs could have no reasonable expectation of a specific COLA amount for life given that the General Assembly has changed the COLA formula numerous times over the past 40 years
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
May 23 2014 01:17 GMT
#21411
Well, some hold different opinions on the validity of those deals.

Unions are not an inherent good; they're a sometimes good, sometimes bad. They are a monopoly on labor supply; which is sometimes necessary as a counterbalance, but not always. I'm not so fond of public sector unions personally; as part of the point of unions is to give labor some power relative to owners. But in the public sector, the employees already have considerable power over management, since they can vote to change management.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
May 23 2014 01:26 GMT
#21412
On May 23 2014 10:17 zlefin wrote:
Well, some hold different opinions on the validity of those deals.

Unions are not an inherent good; they're a sometimes good, sometimes bad. They are a monopoly on labor supply; which is sometimes necessary as a counterbalance, but not always. I'm not so fond of public sector unions personally; as part of the point of unions is to give labor some power relative to owners. But in the public sector, the employees already have considerable power over management, since they can vote to change management.


TIL ~12% = monopoly
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
CursOr
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States6335 Posts
May 23 2014 01:58 GMT
#21413
Ever since the real downturn in the US economy in 2008 ... there have been a few radio stations here in Southern California (mainly KFI) that blame pretty much everything wrong in the world with government employee pensions. They go on about it for hours. And hours. Every morning. Its incredibly effective, there is a very very large portion of people around me that are convinced that this is ruining our economy.

I mean there are indeed a good few instances of gov't officials taking too much, or even the raw numbers on how much tax money actually goes into pensions, but it is hardly what is WRONG with the US economy. This is maybe 1% of our GDP. Maybe. I would say the problems in the US have more to do with outsourcing of manufacturing, corporate welfare through gigantic tax breaks or government sweetheart deals, and the fact that the income distribution is so imbalanced and constantly getting worse. A guy making 50k a year on California Court retirement because he worked there for 42 years and had that in his contract? This is robbery. But, the CEO of a big company that pays 90% of its workers minimum wage while he brings home 20million a year? This is an American hero.

couple this sort of retirement bashing with the general trash talking about the welfare/public assistance system in the states (which is incredibly modest compared to most 1st world countries) ... and you get well ... Americans

Articles like this are interesting and speak to my point. Corporate America and glorified greed (of CEO's) cause much more of a problem than Retirement from state governments.
CJ forever (-_-(-_-(-_-(-_-)-_-)-_-)-_-)
RCMDVA
Profile Joined July 2011
United States708 Posts
May 23 2014 02:04 GMT
#21414
We just had a situation in Richmond were a high level finance person with the city left her job.

She had 800 hours of sick/vacation leave built up.

There was an "adjustment" made after the fact that re-calculated her retirement final year salary based on that leave balance.

So she got a +40% increase in her "salary" figure in the retirement calculation.

And that would have netted her an additional +$400,000 or so to the total value of her pension. (not lump sum, over the life of her retirement ~ 20 years)

http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/local/government-politics/finance-official-nearly-left-with-in-extra-pay/article_bbb0bae8-df67-11e3-ab60-001a4bcf6878.html
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
May 23 2014 02:08 GMT
#21415
Aliens almost definitely exist.

At least, that's what two astronomers told Congress this week, as they appealed for continued funding to research life beyond Earth.

According to ABC News, Dan Werthimer, director of the SETI [search for extraterrestrial intelligence] Research Center at the University of California, Berkeley, told the House Committee on Science, Space and Technology Wednesday that the possibility of extraterrestrial microbial life is "close to 100 percent."

"In the last 50 years, evidence has steadily mounted that the components and conditions we believe necessary for life are common and perhaps ubiquitous in our galaxy," said Werthimer in his written testimony, adding: "The possibility that life has arisen elsewhere, and perhaps evolved intelligence, is plausible and warrants scientific inquiry."

Werthimer's colleague Seth Shostak, a senior astronomer at the SETI Institute, also told Congress that he believes our chances of finding extraterrestrial life are high.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
CursOr
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States6335 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-23 02:12:14
May 23 2014 02:11 GMT
#21416
On May 23 2014 11:04 RCMDVA wrote:
We just had a situation in Richmond were a high level finance person with the city left her job.

She had 800 hours of sick/vacation leave built up.

There was an "adjustment" made after the fact that re-calculated her retirement final year salary based on that leave balance.

So she got a +40% increase in her "salary" figure in the retirement calculation.

And that would have netted her an additional +$400,000 or so to the total value of her pension. (not lump sum, over the life of her retirement ~ 20 years)

http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/local/government-politics/finance-official-nearly-left-with-in-extra-pay/article_bbb0bae8-df67-11e3-ab60-001a4bcf6878.html


That is a fantastic example! If you want to make half a million a year go into the private sector.

(and by that a I really mean that no one should ever make that much money.)

edit: Hi StealthBlue.
CJ forever (-_-(-_-(-_-(-_-)-_-)-_-)-_-)
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
May 23 2014 02:11 GMT
#21417
We can't pretend that pensions aren't an issue. The need to be reasonable and they need to be funded. If they can't be funded than the public needs to decide what's going to change. We can't kidding ourselves that taxes won't go up, pensions will be fully funded and no programs will be cut. That fairy tale doesn't have a happy ending.
CursOr
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States6335 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-23 02:14:02
May 23 2014 02:13 GMT
#21418
On May 23 2014 11:11 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
We can't pretend that pensions aren't an issue. The need to be reasonable and they need to be funded. If they can't be funded than the public needs to decide what's going to change. We can't kidding ourselves that taxes won't go up, pensions will be fully funded and no programs will be cut. That fairy tale doesn't have a happy ending.


That is very forward thinking of you, our children who won't have to bear the tax burden certainly appreciate that kind of thinking.
CJ forever (-_-(-_-(-_-(-_-)-_-)-_-)-_-)
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
May 23 2014 02:18 GMT
#21419
On May 23 2014 11:13 CursOr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 23 2014 11:11 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
We can't pretend that pensions aren't an issue. The need to be reasonable and they need to be funded. If they can't be funded than the public needs to decide what's going to change. We can't kidding ourselves that taxes won't go up, pensions will be fully funded and no programs will be cut. That fairy tale doesn't have a happy ending.


That is very forward thinking of you, our children who won't have to bear the tax burden certainly appreciate that kind of thinking.

Unfortunately the good time to deal with pensions was 20 years ago. Boomers are already retiring and so trying to make up for past funding shortfalls is much more painful than it could have been.
CursOr
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States6335 Posts
May 23 2014 02:18 GMT
#21420
On May 23 2014 05:57 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
COLAs on a diet

PUBLIC sector pensions in America are being cut, but in a subtle way. The latest report from the Center for Retirement Research (what would we do without it?) at Boston College shows that many states have managed to cut the cost of living adjustment, or COLA as it is known.

Whole article: + Show Spoiler +
A lack of inflation linking savaged the benefits of British pensioners, particularly in the 1970s. Even at 4% inflation, prices will double within 18 years, within the life expectancy of males and females retiring at 65. In other words, living standards will halve in such a scenario.

Most national govenment pensions (including the US's Social Security) try to offer inflation-linking to offset this risk. But around 25-30% of state and local government workers are not covered by the Social Security system, so the loss of this benefit could lead to substantial hardship, particularly in later years.

The problem for states and local governments is that defined benefit (final salary) pensions are easy to promise but expensive to deliver and the full bill takes decades to come due. A combination of buoyant equity markets and generous accoutnig assumptions made the promise seem fairly cheap in the 1980s and 1990s. And offering better benefits was a way of rewarding workers without pushing up the immediate pay bill (a move that might require higher taxes).

Cutting pensions is hard work. Many states have switched new employees to defined contribution plans, where the cost is strictly limited (there is no pension promise, and thus no shortfall to make up). But that does nothing to cut the cost of promises that have already been made. And courts have tended to rule that the benefits of existing employees are protected under contract law and thus cannot be reduced; join the workforce at 18 and the promise made by the employer must still be enforced at age 90.

One might think that such legal protection might apply to COLAs, but it seems not. The CRR says that of the 17 states that have reduced COLAs, 12 have been challenged in court. The courts have ruled in nine cases and have upheld cuts in all but one case. The CRR writes that

The main rationale for allowing the COLA cut is that COLAs are not considered to be a contractual right. For example, in Colorado, where the decision is currently under appeal, the judge found that the plaintiffs had no vested contract right to a specific COLA amount for life and that the plaintiffs could have no reasonable expectation of a specific COLA amount for life given that the General Assembly has changed the COLA formula numerous times over the past 40 years
Some changes in the COLA were surely overdue. Eight states had COLAs that were fixed at 2.5-3.5% a year regardless of the rate of inflation; in low inflation years, such as this one, that means a real increase in pension entitlement. Three of the states linked future COLA increases to the CPI, a perfectly sensible reform. Other states have COLAs linked to the CPI but with a cap; some have reduced the cap. At current low inflation rates, that won't hurt pensioners much (although, by the same token, it won't help the funding status of the plan much).

Some states have eliminated the COLA for a set period or for the forseeable future. These include New Jersey where a committee will be formed to determine whether the COLA can be brought back if the plan becomes 80% funded. As the CRR drily remarks

Since the state has allowed funding to decline since the legislation, the prospect of 80% funding is very unlikely
Cutting the COLA out completely can help a lot. The CRR estimates that eliminating a 2% COLA reduces lifetime benefits by 15-17%. And states probably need cuts of this magnitude. It takes a while for the figures in state pension plans to get updated (and the accounting is all wrong as mentioned before). But one can get an idea of the funding pressures from the private sector. After a good year in 2013, a lot of ground has been lost, largely because bond yields have fallen. According to Mercer, the pension plans of S&P 1500 companies have risen from $103 billion to $360 billion so far this year, leaving a funding ratio of 84%.

But is this the fairest way of cutting pension costs? The main worry is about people on low incomes, particularly those in state plans without social security. Better to have people retire later and to move to career average benefits, particuarly as final salary benefits mean that a few employees get huge and very costly retirement incomes (see the 12,200 Californians with six-figure pensions). But such approaches may not be legally possible; COLA cuts are the only weapon states can use.

Link

Also, a link to the referenced report.


This is awesome ... so in 20 years a public employee that makes a lavish $22.00 an hour will probably have minimum wage catch up with him. They don't really do any work anyways.
CJ forever (-_-(-_-(-_-(-_-)-_-)-_-)-_-)
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