US Politics Mega-thread - Page 10066
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
DarkPlasmaBall
United States43762 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15391 Posts
Actively, already imposed? Or intend to impose? | ||
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
In a fundraising speech Wednesday, President Trump admitted once and for all that he just makes stuff up. The man who has racked up more than 2,000 false and misleading claims as president said he insisted to Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau that United States runs a trade deficit with Canada — despite having “no idea” whether that was the case. (Surprise! It's not.) “I said, ‘Wrong, Justin, you do.’ I didn’t even know,” Trump said. “I had no idea. I just said, ‘You’re wrong.’ You know why? Because we’re so stupid.” Source | ||
Nebuchad
Switzerland11908 Posts
On March 16 2018 01:06 Plansix wrote: I am super pumped that Trump is just making shit up when he talks to leaders of other countries. That’s a good look for the US in general. Source Who is the "we" here? | ||
Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
The US? The goverment, maybe? Maybe Trump and Trudeau? | ||
Simberto
Germany11311 Posts
And through this, the real argument: "A trade deficit is not actually a bad thing" gets completely prevented, because the discussion shifts away from that towards "There is no trade deficit with that country, Trump is bullshitting again". If you argue that point, it seems like you are silently acknowledging the common ground of "Trade deficit = losing". | ||
{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Karis Vas Ryaar
United States4396 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43762 Posts
On March 16 2018 02:09 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote: https://twitter.com/CahnEmily/status/974259443885068289 Impossible. Surely he was fired from the Trump administration for something else? | ||
GreenHorizons
United States22667 Posts
I'm sure a lot of the Democrats there got a similar reaction though. Libs: Listen to the kids Kids: We really like Bernie Sanders Libs: shut up and vote for who and what we tell you! Not going to lie, it was pretty funny watching Democrats squirm over registering all these kids. This would be a bread and butter registration drive (wonder why we don't have automatic registration in the wealthiest country in the world nearly 2 decades into the 21st century?) type event but they knew what they would be getting and they couldn't figure out if they really wanted it or not | ||
ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
Mueller Subpoenas Trump Organization, Demanding Documents About Russia WASHINGTON — The special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III, has subpoenaed the Trump Organization to turn over documents, including some related to Russia, according to two people briefed on the matter. The order is the first known time that the special counsel demanded documents directly related to President Trump’s businesses, bringing the investigation closer to the president. The breadth of the subpoena was not clear, nor was it clear why Mr. Mueller issued it instead of simply asking for the documents from the company, an umbrella organization that oversees Mr. Trump’s business ventures. In the subpoena, delivered in recent weeks, Mr. Mueller ordered the Trump Organization to hand over all documents related to Russia and other topics he is investigating, the people said. The subpoena is the latest indication that the investigation, which Mr. Trump’s lawyers once regularly assured him would be completed by now, will drag on for at least several more months. Word of the subpoena comes as Mr. Mueller appears to be broadening his investigation to examine the role foreign money may have played in funding Mr. Trump’s political activities. In recent weeks, Mr. Mueller’s investigators have questioned witnesses, including an adviser to the United Arab Emirates, about the flow of Emirati money into the United States. Neither White House officials nor Alan S. Futerfas, a lawyer representing the Trump Organization, immediately responded to requests for comment. The Trump Organization has typically complied with requests from congressional investigators for documents for their own inquiries into Russian election interference, and there was no indication the company planned to fight Mr. Mueller about it. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/15/us/politics/trump-organization-subpoena-mueller-russia.html Mueller: try and fire me now ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ | ||
Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On March 16 2018 01:41 Simberto wrote: This post-factual bullshit is so annoying. You can't argue with a person whose view of the world is not based on what is actually true, but on what they think is true based on whatever fart flies through their head. And who refuse to change their views based on any evidence, because they value their own feeling of the situation higher than any possible evidence. And through this, the real argument: "A trade deficit is not actually a bad thing" gets completely prevented, because the discussion shifts away from that towards "There is no trade deficit with that country, Trump is bullshitting again". If you argue that point, it seems like you are silently acknowledging the common ground of "Trade deficit = losing". The right complained about the left forcing their ideology around in contravention of evidence and reality. You can look at this from a million different ways to the hearers. Why is the priority righting historical racism/privilege through redistribution, when white America/rural America is getting eaten up by economic transitions they don't have the skills for and an opioid crisis nobody cares about? Why do lefties push for more gun control laws after the last gun control laws do nothing? Why is this living constitution thing only work against religious liberties and personal liberties I hold dear, and my representatives are powerless (or craven) to stop legislature by judicial fiat? What's my due process recourse when administrative agencies declare me in violation of any number of a million regulations that I'd have to double my small business workforce to keep track of and make demanded filings? Where is the evidence that open borders don't matter, that a country's citizens are just whoever decides to walk in at a given time, that the only measure of repeatedly deported re-offenders is whether or not they offend at a higher or lower rate than the citizens? And on and on. I only seek to outline, not to convince. Both sides think the other's ideology and policy prescriptions are grounded in alternate realities. Then the predictable transition is to all the reasons why Trump does not embody the principled opposition grounded in reality. Well, the first order of business is to take whoever you can get to smash some of these pretty lies into pieces and reorient the dialogue to the true motivations and outcomes. It turns out, Democrats like Hillary Clinton are perfectly willing to fuck the 30 states in the middle of the coasts, and decry them as deplorable (or more recently) people who don't like black people getting rights, women getting jobs, Indian Americans succeeding more than you are projecting ... basically all you American miscreants are fucked up in the head envious racist bastards and we'll be governing on our own behalf despite your colossal miserable opinions. And you'll still get many who will still say that woman would've been the better choice. I know a lot of people here also allow Clinton to have erred in her unique robotic hatred of less woke America. When the chips are down, however, that's your compromise. Which is to say, we get all we want, and our outlook is that you'll be better off getting nothing of what you want. Yes, I'll take chaos over a unidirectional leftward lurch. It will expose more of America to who really runs the Democratic party and just how evil snooty elites will act towards your representatives. Today, we know that will extend to the defense of domestic surveillance by our spy agencies of citizens, as many here have dismissed those concerns (chanting Russia). Or you don't even get to have appointments--we'll slow the whole process down to make sure the duly elected President does not have an Executive Branch under his direction (Even the NYT admits the Schumer-led art of delay is effective). So the other side is willing to pull out all the stops to subvert a changeover in the leadership of the executive branch, basically unelected bureaucrats over an electoral majority when you tie in the illegal leaks and the rest. Hmm, yeah you know I'm perfectly willing to let Trump expose this mess to the public. If civil servants will only act like civil servants when their preferences win election, this whole thing is a farce anyways. I'll take the most imperfect executor of that transition, provided he accidentally or intentionally gets the kind of transparency from media-Democratic party-unelected career civil servants that we've seen, and maybe just maybe he'll win a couple important battles to boot. There is exactly zero chance of restored faith in our American institutions without obliterating the old convenient false fronts and (a successor) laying the new foundation. | ||
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Excludos
Norway7942 Posts
Why ask criminals to hand over stuff when you can order them to? | ||
Danglars
United States12133 Posts
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hunts
United States2113 Posts
On March 16 2018 03:15 Danglars wrote: The most real response to someone angry at post-factual bullshit is to point out that they just prefer their own bullshit, make it out to not smell so bad, and are relatively comfortable swimming around in it. It’s both a matter of perspective and a more modern restatement of two irreconciliable viewpoints. I also like the aspect of Trump that pokes a lot of holes in the bullshit ceiling, all while being very unlikable and offering no cohesive alternative. You're doing it again. You're attempting to assert that "both sides have their bullshit therefore the other side is just as bad." This is objectively, and provably so, not true. The right literally believes many things that are provably and objectively false. The left, less so. It is something you can actually measure and prove. You are objectively wrong, in asserting that "the other sides just as bad." | ||
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Falling
Canada11262 Posts
On March 15 2018 17:54 GreenHorizons wrote: I'm happy to keep answering questions, but it should be noted that my larger point isn't to lay out a comprehensive alternative plan to policing as we know it from budgeting out line items for investigations to implementing it legislatively, but that instead of accepting that what we have (or probably whatever wegandi is imagining we replace it with) a failing system and tinkering around the edges, we need to be talking about how we do a full tear-down and new construction. Knowing that my ideas aren't the only ideas, I can tell you what I think. But we should pay attention to the fact that of the suggestions outlined by the Rolling Stone article, the community patrols was the one I expressed skepticism about for the reasons mentioned in the piece and you mention there. If you're prepared to engage with that in mind, I'll indulge you. Well does actually matter what you are replacing it with. If you just pull down a corrupt system, with no good plan to replace, there's no guarantee that what you replace it will be anything other than chaos. And there's actually every reason to believe that the results will be catastrophically worse. If you pull down a creaky system, for everything that isn't working, there is still checks and balances that somewhat mitigate the power of corrupt people. If you pull down and replace it with a half-baked idea, there are no brakes stopping the worst of the corrupt people. We can see this in the Russian Revolution- the tyranny of the czars was one thing, but even they bothered to tour their prison system to see what it was like- nothing of the sort occurred. Even the Gestapo was trying determine the truth of whether or not a person was a spy- Stalinist Russia just needed a high quota of captured traitors- guiltiness was irrelevant. But how they got there was upsetting the entire apple cart without replacing it with anything that would preclude a madman like Stalin from gaining power and staying in power indefinitely while amassing even more. This is why reformation generally works better than revolution because you don't have to throw out what was working. Good rules that were twisted are better off untwisted than a situation where we throw out all the rules and don't have a good set of new rules to replace. No rules is substantially worse that twisted rules because there is not even a chance of stopping the worst people. So then if we are to utterly replace the old rules with the new, we ought to know what the new is and whether they are any good. And even saying all that, I don't even agree that the rules are as twisted as all that- because it would compared to what else in history? You want to abolish, which means you are against the very core idea of the police force, rather than the particular implementation in the US: so that means police systems from Canada, UK, Germany, etc, etc are also out. When we compare the justice system of any of those countries with a police force to any other time period of history... the limitations are pretty good compared to execution, exile, and mutilation. | ||
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States22667 Posts
On March 16 2018 03:20 Falling wrote: Well does actually matter what you are replacing it with. If you just pull down a corrupt system, with no good plan to replace, there's no guarantee that what you replace it will be anything other than chaos. And there's actually every reason to believe that the results will be catastrophically worse. If you pull down a creaky system, for everything that isn't working, there is still checks and balances that somewhat mitigate the power of corrupt people. If you pull down and replace it with a half-baked idea, there are no brakes stopping the worst of the corrupt people. We can see this in the Russian Revolution- the tyranny of the czars was one thing, but even they bothered to tour their prison system to see what it was like- nothing of the sort occurred. Even the Gestapo was trying determine the truth of whether or not a person was a spy- Stalinist Russia just needed a high quota of captured traitors- guiltiness was irrelevant. But how they got there was upsetting the entire apple cart without replacing it with anything that would preclude a madman like Stalin from gaining power and staying in power indefinitely while amassing even more. This is why reformation generally works better than revolution because you don't have to throw out what was working. Good rules that were twisted are better off untwisted than a situation where we throw out all the rules and don't have a good set of new rules to replace. No rules is substantially worse that twisted rules because there is not even a chance of stopping the worst people. So then if we are to utterly replace the old rules with the new, we ought to know what the new is and whether they are any good. It's a shame you wrote all that without reading the later responses that addressed it. | ||
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