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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States46409 Posts
March 15 2018 15:29 GMT
#201301
Are those the same Russia sanctions that Congress approved of a while ago and Trump had been holding back on them?
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-15 15:36:08
March 15 2018 15:35 GMT
#201302
On March 15 2018 23:49 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
I'm sure he was grief stricken.

Show nested quote +
President Trump’s administration imposed sanctions on a series of Russian organizations and individuals on Thursday in retaliation for interference in the 2016 presidential elections and other “malicious” cyberattacks. It was the most significant action taken against Moscow since Mr. Trump took office.

The sanctions came at the same time the Trump administration joined a collective statement with Britain, France and Germany on Thursday denouncing Russia for its apparent role in a nerve gas attack on a former Russian spy and his daughter on British soil, calling it a “clear violation” of international law. But the statement included no joint action in response.

The American sanctions announced on Thursday targeted many of the same Russian organizations and operatives identified by Robert S. Mueller III, the special counsel, in an indictment that outlined an audacious attempt to spread disinformation and propaganda to disrupt American democracy and, eventually, influence the vote on behalf of Mr. Trump. The sanctions also responded to other cyberattacks, including a previously undisclosed attempt to penetrate the American energy grid.

“The administration is confronting and countering malign Russian cyberactivity, including their attempted interference in U.S. elections, destructive cyberattacks, and intrusions targeting critical infrastructure,” Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin said in a statement. “These targeted sanctions are a part of a broader effort to address the ongoing nefarious attacks emanating from Russia.”

The sanctions, targeting five Russian organizations and 19 individuals, will generally block them from traveling to the United States, freeze any assets in the country and bar American businesses and individuals from doing business with them. Among the organizations sanctioned were the Federal Security Service, the successor to the K.G.B. known by its Russian acronym F.S.B., and Russian military intelligence, known as G.R.U., although they, like a few others, were previously penalized under past actions for the intervention in Ukraine.

In addition to the election meddling, the attacks cited by the Treasury Department included the NotPetya cyberattack that caused billions of dollars in damage in the United States, Europe and Asia in what the department called “the most destructive and costly cyberattack in history.”

The action came a day after Britain expelled 23 Russian diplomats and announced other measures in response to the poisoning attack but its allies announced no similar efforts.

“This use of a military-grade nerve agent, of a type developed by Russia, constitutes the first offensive use of a nerve agent in Europe since the Second World War,” the statement said. “It is an assault on the United Kingdom’s sovereignty and any such use by a state party is a clear violation of the Chemical Weapons Convention and a breach of international law. It threatens the security of us all.”

The statement indicated that the United States and other allies backed Britain’s conclusion about Moscow’s responsibility. “We share the United Kingdom’s assessment that there is no plausible alternative explanation, and note that Russia’s failure to address the legitimate request by the government of the United Kingdom further underlines Russia’s responsibility,” it said.


Source



Actively, already imposed? Or intend to impose?
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
March 15 2018 16:06 GMT
#201303
I am super pumped that Trump is just making shit up when he talks to leaders of other countries. That’s a good look for the US in general.

In a fundraising speech Wednesday, President Trump admitted once and for all that he just makes stuff up. The man who has racked up more than 2,000 false and misleading claims as president said he insisted to Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau that United States runs a trade deficit with Canada — despite having “no idea” whether that was the case. (Surprise! It's not.)

“I said, ‘Wrong, Justin, you do.’ I didn’t even know,” Trump said. “I had no idea. I just said, ‘You’re wrong.’ You know why? Because we’re so stupid.”


Source
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12533 Posts
March 15 2018 16:23 GMT
#201304
On March 16 2018 01:06 Plansix wrote:
I am super pumped that Trump is just making shit up when he talks to leaders of other countries. That’s a good look for the US in general.

Show nested quote +
In a fundraising speech Wednesday, President Trump admitted once and for all that he just makes stuff up. The man who has racked up more than 2,000 false and misleading claims as president said he insisted to Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau that United States runs a trade deficit with Canada — despite having “no idea” whether that was the case. (Surprise! It's not.)

“I said, ‘Wrong, Justin, you do.’ I didn’t even know,” Trump said. “I had no idea. I just said, ‘You’re wrong.’ You know why? Because we’re so stupid.”


Source


Who is the "we" here?
No will to live, no wish to die
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
March 15 2018 16:24 GMT
#201305
You definitely can trust and rely on someone who would say this even though it’s false.

Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
March 15 2018 16:30 GMT
#201306
On March 16 2018 01:23 Nebuchad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2018 01:06 Plansix wrote:
I am super pumped that Trump is just making shit up when he talks to leaders of other countries. That’s a good look for the US in general.

In a fundraising speech Wednesday, President Trump admitted once and for all that he just makes stuff up. The man who has racked up more than 2,000 false and misleading claims as president said he insisted to Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau that United States runs a trade deficit with Canada — despite having “no idea” whether that was the case. (Surprise! It's not.)

“I said, ‘Wrong, Justin, you do.’ I didn’t even know,” Trump said. “I had no idea. I just said, ‘You’re wrong.’ You know why? Because we’re so stupid.”


Source


Who is the "we" here?

The US? The goverment, maybe? Maybe Trump and Trudeau?
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11978 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-15 16:42:17
March 15 2018 16:41 GMT
#201307
This post-factual bullshit is so annoying. You can't argue with a person whose view of the world is not based on what is actually true, but on what they think is true based on whatever fart flies through their head. And who refuse to change their views based on any evidence, because they value their own feeling of the situation higher than any possible evidence.

And through this, the real argument: "A trade deficit is not actually a bad thing" gets completely prevented, because the discussion shifts away from that towards "There is no trade deficit with that country, Trump is bullshitting again". If you argue that point, it seems like you are silently acknowledging the common ground of "Trade deficit = losing".
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 15 2018 17:06 GMT
#201308
Didn't letterman in the 90's have a skit to test the toughness of things?

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
March 15 2018 17:09 GMT
#201309
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States46409 Posts
March 15 2018 17:12 GMT
#201310
On March 16 2018 02:09 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
https://twitter.com/CahnEmily/status/974259443885068289


Impossible. Surely he was fired from the Trump administration for something else?
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24343 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-15 17:49:07
March 15 2018 17:38 GMT
#201311
Democrats are going to try to convince you that nothing is more important than beating Trump, and the last person we should have try is this guy.



I'm sure a lot of the Democrats there got a similar reaction though.

Libs: Listen to the kids

Kids: We really like Bernie Sanders

Libs: shut up and vote for who and what we tell you!

Not going to lie, it was pretty funny watching Democrats squirm over registering all these kids. This would be a bread and butter registration drive (wonder why we don't have automatic registration in the wealthiest country in the world nearly 2 decades into the 21st century?) type event but they knew what they would be getting and they couldn't figure out if they really wanted it or not
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
March 15 2018 17:51 GMT
#201312
Mueller Subpoenas Trump Organization, Demanding Documents About Russia

WASHINGTON — The special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III, has subpoenaed the Trump Organization to turn over documents, including some related to Russia, according to two people briefed on the matter. The order is the first known time that the special counsel demanded documents directly related to President Trump’s businesses, bringing the investigation closer to the president.

The breadth of the subpoena was not clear, nor was it clear why Mr. Mueller issued it instead of simply asking for the documents from the company, an umbrella organization that oversees Mr. Trump’s business ventures. In the subpoena, delivered in recent weeks, Mr. Mueller ordered the Trump Organization to hand over all documents related to Russia and other topics he is investigating, the people said.

The subpoena is the latest indication that the investigation, which Mr. Trump’s lawyers once regularly assured him would be completed by now, will drag on for at least several more months. Word of the subpoena comes as Mr. Mueller appears to be broadening his investigation to examine the role foreign money may have played in funding Mr. Trump’s political activities. In recent weeks, Mr. Mueller’s investigators have questioned witnesses, including an adviser to the United Arab Emirates, about the flow of Emirati money into the United States.

Neither White House officials nor Alan S. Futerfas, a lawyer representing the Trump Organization, immediately responded to requests for comment. The Trump Organization has typically complied with requests from congressional investigators for documents for their own inquiries into Russian election interference, and there was no indication the company planned to fight Mr. Mueller about it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/15/us/politics/trump-organization-subpoena-mueller-russia.html




Mueller: try and fire me now ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
March 15 2018 17:57 GMT
#201313
On March 16 2018 01:41 Simberto wrote:
This post-factual bullshit is so annoying. You can't argue with a person whose view of the world is not based on what is actually true, but on what they think is true based on whatever fart flies through their head. And who refuse to change their views based on any evidence, because they value their own feeling of the situation higher than any possible evidence.

And through this, the real argument: "A trade deficit is not actually a bad thing" gets completely prevented, because the discussion shifts away from that towards "There is no trade deficit with that country, Trump is bullshitting again". If you argue that point, it seems like you are silently acknowledging the common ground of "Trade deficit = losing".

The right complained about the left forcing their ideology around in contravention of evidence and reality. You can look at this from a million different ways to the hearers. Why is the priority righting historical racism/privilege through redistribution, when white America/rural America is getting eaten up by economic transitions they don't have the skills for and an opioid crisis nobody cares about? Why do lefties push for more gun control laws after the last gun control laws do nothing? Why is this living constitution thing only work against religious liberties and personal liberties I hold dear, and my representatives are powerless (or craven) to stop legislature by judicial fiat? What's my due process recourse when administrative agencies declare me in violation of any number of a million regulations that I'd have to double my small business workforce to keep track of and make demanded filings? Where is the evidence that open borders don't matter, that a country's citizens are just whoever decides to walk in at a given time, that the only measure of repeatedly deported re-offenders is whether or not they offend at a higher or lower rate than the citizens? And on and on. I only seek to outline, not to convince. Both sides think the other's ideology and policy prescriptions are grounded in alternate realities.

Then the predictable transition is to all the reasons why Trump does not embody the principled opposition grounded in reality. Well, the first order of business is to take whoever you can get to smash some of these pretty lies into pieces and reorient the dialogue to the true motivations and outcomes. It turns out, Democrats like Hillary Clinton are perfectly willing to fuck the 30 states in the middle of the coasts, and decry them as deplorable (or more recently) people who don't like black people getting rights, women getting jobs, Indian Americans succeeding more than you are projecting ... basically all you American miscreants are fucked up in the head envious racist bastards and we'll be governing on our own behalf despite your colossal miserable opinions. And you'll still get many who will still say that woman would've been the better choice.

I know a lot of people here also allow Clinton to have erred in her unique robotic hatred of less woke America. When the chips are down, however, that's your compromise. Which is to say, we get all we want, and our outlook is that you'll be better off getting nothing of what you want. Yes, I'll take chaos over a unidirectional leftward lurch. It will expose more of America to who really runs the Democratic party and just how evil snooty elites will act towards your representatives. Today, we know that will extend to the defense of domestic surveillance by our spy agencies of citizens, as many here have dismissed those concerns (chanting Russia). Or you don't even get to have appointments--we'll slow the whole process down to make sure the duly elected President does not have an Executive Branch under his direction (Even the NYT admits the Schumer-led art of delay is effective). So the other side is willing to pull out all the stops to subvert a changeover in the leadership of the executive branch, basically unelected bureaucrats over an electoral majority when you tie in the illegal leaks and the rest. Hmm, yeah you know I'm perfectly willing to let Trump expose this mess to the public. If civil servants will only act like civil servants when their preferences win election, this whole thing is a farce anyways. I'll take the most imperfect executor of that transition, provided he accidentally or intentionally gets the kind of transparency from media-Democratic party-unelected career civil servants that we've seen, and maybe just maybe he'll win a couple important battles to boot. There is exactly zero chance of restored faith in our American institutions without obliterating the old convenient false fronts and (a successor) laying the new foundation.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
March 15 2018 18:06 GMT
#201314
My guy, who the hell are you arguing with?
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Excludos
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Norway8279 Posts
March 15 2018 18:14 GMT
#201315
"nor was it clear why Mr. Mueller issued it instead of simply asking for the documents from the company"

Why ask criminals to hand over stuff when you can order them to?
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
March 15 2018 18:15 GMT
#201316
The most real response to someone angry at post-factual bullshit is to point out that they just prefer their own bullshit, make it out to not smell so bad, and are relatively comfortable swimming around in it. It’s both a matter of perspective and a more modern restatement of two irreconciliable viewpoints. I also like the aspect of Trump that pokes a lot of holes in the bullshit ceiling, all while being very unlikable and offering no cohesive alternative.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
hunts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2113 Posts
March 15 2018 18:19 GMT
#201317
On March 16 2018 03:15 Danglars wrote:
The most real response to someone angry at post-factual bullshit is to point out that they just prefer their own bullshit, make it out to not smell so bad, and are relatively comfortable swimming around in it. It’s both a matter of perspective and a more modern restatement of two irreconciliable viewpoints. I also like the aspect of Trump that pokes a lot of holes in the bullshit ceiling, all while being very unlikable and offering no cohesive alternative.


You're doing it again. You're attempting to assert that "both sides have their bullshit therefore the other side is just as bad." This is objectively, and provably so, not true. The right literally believes many things that are provably and objectively false. The left, less so. It is something you can actually measure and prove. You are objectively wrong, in asserting that "the other sides just as bad."
twitch.tv/huntstv 7x legend streamer
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11607 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-15 18:37:19
March 15 2018 18:20 GMT
#201318
On March 15 2018 17:54 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2018 17:48 Falling wrote:
Then who is paying these community patrols? And how integrated are these community patrols with each other when one criminal bounces to the next city? Also what stops a community patrol from simply being the criminal syndicate, rather than a defence against it?


I'm happy to keep answering questions, but it should be noted that my larger point isn't to lay out a comprehensive alternative plan to policing as we know it from budgeting out line items for investigations to implementing it legislatively, but that instead of accepting that what we have (or probably whatever wegandi is imagining we replace it with) a failing system and tinkering around the edges, we need to be talking about how we do a full tear-down and new construction.

Knowing that my ideas aren't the only ideas, I can tell you what I think. But we should pay attention to the fact that of the suggestions outlined by the Rolling Stone article, the community patrols was the one I expressed skepticism about for the reasons mentioned in the piece and you mention there.

If you're prepared to engage with that in mind, I'll indulge you.

Well does actually matter what you are replacing it with. If you just pull down a corrupt system, with no good plan to replace, there's no guarantee that what you replace it will be anything other than chaos. And there's actually every reason to believe that the results will be catastrophically worse. If you pull down a creaky system, for everything that isn't working, there is still checks and balances that somewhat mitigate the power of corrupt people. If you pull down and replace it with a half-baked idea, there are no brakes stopping the worst of the corrupt people.

We can see this in the Russian Revolution- the tyranny of the czars was one thing, but even they bothered to tour their prison system to see what it was like- nothing of the sort occurred. Even the Gestapo was trying determine the truth of whether or not a person was a spy- Stalinist Russia just needed a high quota of captured traitors- guiltiness was irrelevant. But how they got there was upsetting the entire apple cart without replacing it with anything that would preclude a madman like Stalin from gaining power and staying in power indefinitely while amassing even more.

This is why reformation generally works better than revolution because you don't have to throw out what was working. Good rules that were twisted are better off untwisted than a situation where we throw out all the rules and don't have a good set of new rules to replace. No rules is substantially worse that twisted rules because there is not even a chance of stopping the worst people. So then if we are to utterly replace the old rules with the new, we ought to know what the new is and whether they are any good.

And even saying all that, I don't even agree that the rules are as twisted as all that- because it would compared to what else in history? You want to abolish, which means you are against the very core idea of the police force, rather than the particular implementation in the US: so that means police systems from Canada, UK, Germany, etc, etc are also out. When we compare the justice system of any of those countries with a police force to any other time period of history... the limitations are pretty good compared to execution, exile, and mutilation.
ModeratorWake me up when Trump's term is finished. Slava Ukraini.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
March 15 2018 18:22 GMT
#201319
I guess windmills must be tilted from time to time.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24343 Posts
March 15 2018 18:23 GMT
#201320
On March 16 2018 03:20 Falling wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2018 17:54 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 15 2018 17:48 Falling wrote:
Then who is paying these community patrols? And how integrated are these community patrols with each other when one criminal bounces to the next city? Also what stops a community patrol from simply being the criminal syndicate, rather than a defence against it?


I'm happy to keep answering questions, but it should be noted that my larger point isn't to lay out a comprehensive alternative plan to policing as we know it from budgeting out line items for investigations to implementing it legislatively, but that instead of accepting that what we have (or probably whatever wegandi is imagining we replace it with) a failing system and tinkering around the edges, we need to be talking about how we do a full tear-down and new construction.

Knowing that my ideas aren't the only ideas, I can tell you what I think. But we should pay attention to the fact that of the suggestions outlined by the Rolling Stone article, the community patrols was the one I expressed skepticism about for the reasons mentioned in the piece and you mention there.

If you're prepared to engage with that in mind, I'll indulge you.

Well does actually matter what you are replacing it with. If you just pull down a corrupt system, with no good plan to replace, there's no guarantee that what you replace it will be anything other than chaos. And there's actually every reason to believe that the results will be catastrophically worse. If you pull down a creaky system, for everything that isn't working, there is still checks and balances that somewhat mitigate the power of corrupt people. If you pull down and replace it with a half-baked idea, there are no brakes stopping the worst of the corrupt people.

We can see this in the Russian Revolution- the tyranny of the czars was one thing, but even they bothered to tour their prison system to see what it was like- nothing of the sort occurred. Even the Gestapo was trying determine the truth of whether or not a person was a spy- Stalinist Russia just needed a high quota of captured traitors- guiltiness was irrelevant. But how they got there was upsetting the entire apple cart without replacing it with anything that would preclude a madman like Stalin from gaining power and staying in power indefinitely while amassing even more.

This is why reformation generally works better than revolution because you don't have to throw out what was working. Good rules that were twisted are better off untwisted than a situation where we throw out all the rules and don't have a good set of new rules to replace. No rules is substantially worse that twisted rules because there is not even a chance of stopping the worst people. So then if we are to utterly replace the old rules with the new, we ought to know what the new is and whether they are any good.


It's a shame you wrote all that without reading the later responses that addressed it.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
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