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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Sadist
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States7260 Posts
March 13 2018 13:47 GMT
#201021
On March 13 2018 22:35 Simberto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 13 2018 22:22 farvacola wrote:
On March 13 2018 22:14 Simberto wrote:
On March 13 2018 20:59 farvacola wrote:
I think this reliance on the findings of a single (albeit huge in scale and thorough) study presents interpretive problems and it would seem that I'm not alone. For example, a reviewer wrote the following:

This book by John Hattie – Professor of Education at the University of Auckland – is the culmination of more than a decade of research during which he and his team have set out to summarise and synthesise the empirical research on the effects of various educational influences and interventions on student achievement. Probably due to the huge scope of this project – comprising 800 meta-analyses, more than 50,000 smaller studies and more than 80 million pupils – this study has been widely acclaimed. According to a review in the Times Educational Supplement, Hattie’s work “reveals teaching’s Holy Grail”.

Hattie starts from the observation that in education “everything seems to work”, as educational interventions of almost any kind seem to have a positive effect on student achievement. He then proposes to move beyond “everything goes”, towards the development of a barometer of “what works best”. To this end he applies the tools of meta-analysis to a huge body of empirical research and calculates effect sizes (denoted d) for 138 influences in the following domains: student, home, school, teacher, curricula and teaching approaches. Hattie neatly presents the effect sizes in a graphical barometer and convincingly argues that only effect sizes higher than 0.4 are in the so-called zone of desired effects (in other words, are worth the effort). Prior to presenting the barometers and effect size rankings, Hattie develops his visible learning story, which is summarised in the following quote: “Visible teaching and learning occurs when learning is the explicit goal, when it is appropriately challenging, when the teacher and student both seek to ascertain whether and to what degree the challenging goal is attained, when there is deliberate practice aimed at attaining mastery of the goal, when there is feedback given and sought, and when there are active, passionate and engaging people participating in the act of learning” (p. 22). The visible learning story is illustrated using the example of outdoor training. An instructor teaching rock-climbing will have continuous visual feedback on the success of his teaching efforts (pupils climbing high or falling down) and be able to adjust his teaching accordingly.

I find the visible learning story a convincing story. I believe most teachers will agree with the book’s main message that effective instruction cannot take place without proper feedback from student to teacher on the effectiveness of the instruction. Hattie also convincingly argues that the effectiveness of teaching increases when teachers act as activator instead of as facilitator, a view which I find refreshing in a time when teaching approaches such as problem-based learning have the effect of sidelining the instructor. My problem with the book is, however, that I would have been convinced even without the empirical analysis. If anything, Hattie’s meta-meta-analysis casts a few doubts on the validity of his research, as I will explain below.

My first comment, however, relates to Hattie’s goal in writing this book. He states that his aim is “to develop an explanatory story about key influences on student learning”, not to build another “what works recipe”. Yet this aim fits uneasily with the barometers and rankings which are scattered across the book. By presenting these measures so prominently, the author automatically invites the reader to make a clear distinction between what works and what doesn’t work. If Hattie doesn’t want us to draw such conclusions, he should not have presented the material in this way. Related to this is the tension between story-telling and ranking influences. The visible learning story is told in Chapter 3 and naturally refers to some of the effect sizes calculated in the remainder of the book. Yet the relationship between story and effect sizes remains implicit and qualitative. The reader has no indication or test result of how well the effect sizes fit the visible learning story.

I next turn to the way in which the meta-meta-analysis has been conducted. Hattie discusses the various pros and cons of meta-analysis extensively and concludes that this is a valid research methodology. I will not take issue with this point, as meta-analysis is a generally accepted tool of academic research. As a general statistical point, however, I was surprised that Hattie has chosen to summarise the effect sizes of the 800 meta-analyses using unweighted averages. Small and large meta-analyses have equal weight, while I would assume that the number of studies on which a meta-analysis is based indicates its validity and importance. Instead I would have opted for weighted averaging by number of studies, students or effect sizes. At a minimum, it would be interesting to see whether the results are robust to the choice of averaging.

A great asset of Hattie’s book is the reference list, which allows the inquisitive reader to dig a little bit deeper, by moving from the rankings to the underlying meta-studies. I have done this for the top-ranking influence, which is “self-reported grades” (d = 1.44). This result is dominated by the Kuncel et al. (2005) meta-analysis (d = 3.1) (Kuncel et al. 2005). This paper is about the validity of ex-post self-reported grades (due to imperfect storage and retrieval from memory or intentional deception), not about students’ expectations or their predictive power of their own study performance, as Hattie claims. The paper thus should not have been included in the analysis. My N = 1 sampling obviously has its limits, but this example does raise questions regarding the remaining average effect sizes.

Two final comments relate to the application of Hattie’s work. While it is certainly valuable to know “what works best” in education, educational institutions will need to know not just the benefit of educational interventions, but also their cost. So the question which really needs to be answered is “what works best per monetary unit spent”. On the cost side, however, Hattie’s book is silent. Also, given the importance of two-way feedback in teaching, a major challenge for large-scale educational institutions (such as universities) is to organise feedback in a cost-effective manner.

Visible learning should be lauded for emphasising the importance of the student–teacher relationship and of adequate feedback, but at the same time presents managers with the challenge of organising this feedback in large scale educational settings.


Source


I would be totally fine with discussing stuff using additional sources if someone else brought any. The problem i am having is that people basically argue completely based on feelings. A single study is better than no study. Of course i could try finding 12 more studies to support my points, but i don't really think it is fair to demand that i put in that much effort, while other people argue solely based on "Oh, but i think this should work"

While true in the most general sense, I think it's a mistake to discount the views of individuals who speak from experience as nothing more than feelings turned thoughts. There are a lot of compelling areas of disagreement that turn on practically non-quantifiable information sources and education, particularly given its "teach to the test" predicament, is one in at least some respects. Further, when an actual teacher like DPB speaks on an educational issue, I think relegating his views as necessarily subservient to a study is a mistake, especially when the study itself seems to disclaim prescriptive use of its findings.


I am also fine with the experience of people involved in the topic. Which is why i tend to value DPBs opinion on educational matter more than that of someone who is not in any way involved with teaching except having been a student once. How to weigh experience against empirical studies is hard, i would usually tend towards empirical studies, because experience is usually very subjective and not necessarily universal, but both definitively have value in an argument.

I also find that people actually involved in a subject are less likely to assert total dominance, and more likely to try to learn more about parts of that subject that might be new to them, unless it directly and completely contradicts something that they know to be true.

When i said "argue based on feeling", i mean statements like the one made by Sadist, where there is neither any actual experience used as a basis, nor any studies, just an "it seems like it would make sense if stuff worked that way, thus i am going to be convinced that it works that way"




One of my best friends now was held back in 5th grade while the rest of us moved onto 6th grade. He went from being the youngest kid in class to just about the oldest and it made a profound impact on his life. His grades improved dramatically throughout the rest of his life.

Like I said i have personal experience in this. Ive known a handful of highschool dropouts as friends and my HS had a roughly 50% dropout rate (some may have been transfers but the vast majority were dropouts). I saw the complete clusterfuck of kids being disrespectful to themselves, others, teachers, authority figures, etc.

You either reach them when they are young and convince them to at lesst partially get their shit together or life will teach them later on down the line when its harder to change due to responsibilities.

On a similar note, theres a whole group of people in the US who start kindergarten at 6 instead of 5 for boys due to maturity.

I know the kindergarten thing deals more with maturity vs poor performance but the concept is similar.
How do you go from where you are to where you want to be? I think you have to have an enthusiasm for life. You have to have a dream, a goal and you have to be willing to work for it. Jim Valvano
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-13 14:18:12
March 13 2018 13:51 GMT
#201022
The only good thing about the CIA director running State is that he might know how our of his field he is and rely on the long time employees of State. But that is the only way I can see a bright side. It’s mostly just terrifying.

Edit:



Never mind, I forgot about this aspect of Pompeo.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Tachion
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada8573 Posts
March 13 2018 13:51 GMT
#201023
On March 13 2018 22:38 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:

For the tough man act that Trump likes to put on, he has to be one of the biggest wusses in DC. How many times has this made now where a high profile member in his administration is fired and he won't even confront them.
i was driving down the road this november eve and spotted a hitchhiker walking down the street. i pulled over and saw that it was only a tree. i uprooted it and put it in my trunk. do trees like marshmallow peeps? cause that's all i have and will have.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 13 2018 13:56 GMT
#201024
If backed into a corner he is wanting to go to war with Iran.

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
KOFgokuon
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States14898 Posts
March 13 2018 14:03 GMT
#201025
What a joke
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 13 2018 14:04 GMT
#201026
Also today we'll see how true the Suicide pact between Tillerson, Mattis, and Mnuchin really is.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
PhoenixVoid
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Canada32742 Posts
March 13 2018 14:10 GMT
#201027
If you wanted to shed more suspicion on Trump taking cues from Moscow, this timing doesn't help. Of course it could all just be coincidental (not being sarcastic) and would be far too obvious. I wonder how all the betting pools on when Tillerson would be fired or resign are reacting.
I'm afraid of demented knife-wielding escaped lunatic libertarian zombie mutants
mierin
Profile Joined August 2010
United States4943 Posts
March 13 2018 14:26 GMT
#201028
It's nothing, guys. (TM)
JD, Stork, Calm, Hyuk Fighting!
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
March 13 2018 14:34 GMT
#201029


NPR has a good breakdown of our new CIA direction.

Short version: She sucks.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
TheLordofAwesome
Profile Joined May 2014
Korea (South)2655 Posts
March 13 2018 14:37 GMT
#201030
On March 13 2018 23:34 Plansix wrote:
https://twitter.com/DaviSusan/status/973552039346270208

NPR has a good breakdown of our new CIA direction.

Short version: She sucks.

Still a hell of a lot better than Tom Cotton, MAGA enthusiast extraordinaire, who was also on the short list for CIA director.
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-13 14:46:41
March 13 2018 14:44 GMT
#201031
On March 13 2018 23:37 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 13 2018 23:34 Plansix wrote:
https://twitter.com/DaviSusan/status/973552039346270208

NPR has a good breakdown of our new CIA direction.

Short version: She sucks.

Still a hell of a lot better than Tom Cotton, MAGA enthusiast extraordinaire, who was also on the short list for CIA director.


One would assume that a person pretty much specialising in "special interrogation techniques" (you know, the funny name you guys invented for torturing) and capable of deliberately ordering to destroy evidence isn't "better" than anything.

I know, i know, even here we have people who think that waterboarding is great, and destroying evidence "necessary" or "smart" (and i bet a few of these people have a legal background too, which makes the mental gymnastics even funner) and in no way should disqualify someone, but reality is, she's not "better". Chances are, she's the same or worse, but you don't know it because it's her job to make sure you don't.

In regards to Pompeo, just make sure you don't pull the NATO/rest of the world into it. And i very well understand that the NATO has nothing to do with Iran. I also very well doubt that it matters to the stable genius.
On track to MA1950A.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
March 13 2018 14:55 GMT
#201032
On March 13 2018 23:37 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 13 2018 23:34 Plansix wrote:
https://twitter.com/DaviSusan/status/973552039346270208

NPR has a good breakdown of our new CIA direction.

Short version: She sucks.

Still a hell of a lot better than Tom Cotton, MAGA enthusiast extraordinaire, who was also on the short list for CIA director.

I would take Cotton because he clown and wouldn’t know what he was doing. This woman is a fucking snake that should have been run out of the CIA a decade ago.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4825 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-13 15:01:21
March 13 2018 15:00 GMT
#201033
We're all experts on this woman now?

But as CC said, and is right for once, Pompeo has been harder on Russia. Remember when Trump picked Tillerson that was also evidence that Trump was a Russian stooge. Now firing him too.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
March 13 2018 15:01 GMT
#201034



Could be because the two differed over negotiating with North Korea

FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
Netherlands30548 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-13 15:07:23
March 13 2018 15:01 GMT
#201035
On March 13 2018 22:24 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:

Looks like this went about as well planned as Comey's firing. What's up with Trump the big boss being too scared to fire people personally?

Making the CIA director secretary of state though....here come the drone bombings

And Iran

Neosteel Enthusiast
CatharsisUT
Profile Joined March 2011
United States487 Posts
March 13 2018 15:07 GMT
#201036
On March 13 2018 20:25 Simberto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 13 2018 13:26 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 13 2018 13:19 CatharsisUT wrote:
On March 13 2018 08:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On March 13 2018 07:52 Simberto wrote:
"I would argue raising standards and holding people back a few times would help."

I would like to mention that this is in no way supported by empirical evidence. Holding people back a grade actually reduces the amount of stuff they learn during their next year. Retention is roughly as bad as corporal punishment (very bad) at home with regards to its effect on learning, and way worse than for example television at home.


This is interesting to me. Do you happen to have sources I can read regarding the supposed detrimental effects that holding students back a grade has on their learning? I'm particularly interested in math education as an example, since I feel these negative effects are counterintuitive. Considering the years of math build on each other, I would think it's of the utmost importance for high school students to have a strong foundation in arithmetic and algebra before starting the higher maths, even if that means spending another year (or summer school) on algebra. Students who have weak algebra skills will struggle even more in trigonometry and calculus, for example. You think it would be worse for them to spend more time on algebra than to be pushed through to the next math? Even if they're failing?


As I read Simberto's comment, it seems fairly misleading. I think what he is saying is "if you have a first grader and make them repeat first grade, they will learn less in the following year if they repeat first grade vs. going to second grade." That seems obvious and kind of useless. Of course they will. If they learned 70% of the first grade material the first time they went through and got up to 90% the second time through, they only learned 20% of a year's worth the second time! That kid could have gone on to second grade and learned 50% of a new year's worth of stuff.

Of course that is the wrong comparison. What we care about is how that kid does in second grade after a repeat year vs. without.


I think if someone learned 70% of the material, having a system that can't get them the other 30% without repeating the 70% they already know is failing that student.

I think you are right that the statistic as presented is less substantial than implied but I don't think an excellent performance in 2nd grade would mean that holding the kid back was a great choice either.


The goal should be to have the maximum learning effect in each year. And retention is really bad at that. But of course, putting children into progressively harder grades while they lack parts of the necessary background knowledge is also not optimal. It is just less bad than retention. A better system would find ways to allow for the students to fill up the holes in their knowledge instead of putting them into situations where they are basically forced to fail or situations where they are stuck repeating the same stuff that they already know most of the time.


1. Why should "have the maximum learning effect in each year" be the goal rather than producing a child with the maximum amount of learning when done with school? And why is pushing unprepared kids forward better than retention? That's not a given and seems, to me, totally counter-intuitive. What if one repeated year in elementary school increases their chances of graduating from high school by 50%? I'm making up numbers, but it's to illustrate that these results require long-term evaluation and you can't just hand-wave at it.

2. I mean, if you have a magic wand you can wave so that kids who did poorly can catch up before the next school year then great, let's use it. Otherwise practicality is an important concern.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
March 13 2018 15:14 GMT
#201037
On March 14 2018 00:00 Introvert wrote:
We're all experts on this woman now?

But as CC said, and is right for once, Pompeo has been harder on Russia. Remember when Trump picked Tillerson that was also evidence that Trump was a Russian stooge. Now firing him too.

My guy, some of us were adults in 2005-2008 we all started to learn just to far the CIA went and when they ran around covering their tracks. None of the people in change of that time should still be at the CIA, let alone be promoted.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 13 2018 15:15 GMT
#201038
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
Netherlands30548 Posts
March 13 2018 15:23 GMT
#201039
The new CIA director is a torturer btw

https://www.propublica.org/article/cia-cables-detail-its-new-deputy-directors-role-in-torture

In August of 2002, interrogators at a secret CIA-run prison in Thailand set out to break a Palestinian man they believed was one of al-Qaida’s top leaders.

As the CIA’s video cameras rolled, security guards shackled Abu Zubaydah to a gurney and interrogators poured water over his mouth and nose until he began to suffocate. They slammed him against a wall, confined him for hours in a coffin-like box, and deprived him of sleep.

The 31-year-old Zubaydah begged for mercy, saying that he knew nothing about the terror group’s future plans. The CIA official in charge, known in agency lingo as the “chief of base,” mocked his complaints, accusing Zubaydah of faking symptoms of psychological breakdown. The torture continued.

When questions began to swirl about the Bush administration’s use of the “black sites,” and program of “enhanced interrogation,” the chief of base began pushing to have the tapes destroyed. She accomplished her mission years later when she rose to a senior position at CIA headquarters and drafted an order to destroy the evidence, which was still locked in a CIA safe at the American embassy in Thailand. Her boss, the head of the agency’s counterterrorism center, signed the order to feed the 92 tapes into a giant shredder.

By then, it was clear that CIA analysts were wrong when they had identified Zubaydah as the number three or four in al-Qaida after Osama bin Laden. The waterboarding failed to elicit valuable intelligence not because he was holding back, but because he was not a member of al-Qaida, and had no knowledge of any plots against the United States.

The chief of base’s role in this tale of pointless brutality and evidence destruction was a footnote to history — until earlier this month, when President Trump named her deputy director of the CIA.
Neosteel Enthusiast
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4825 Posts
March 13 2018 15:28 GMT
#201040
On March 14 2018 00:14 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2018 00:00 Introvert wrote:
We're all experts on this woman now?

But as CC said, and is right for once, Pompeo has been harder on Russia. Remember when Trump picked Tillerson that was also evidence that Trump was a Russian stooge. Now firing him too.

My guy, some of us were adults in 2005-2008 we all started to learn just to far the CIA went and when they ran around covering their tracks. None of the people in change of that time should still be at the CIA, let alone be promoted.



Yes, I'm sure we all remember her from over a decade ago. Maybe some.

Anyways it seems like given all the concerns about experienced people in the Cabinet this isn't so bad. But maybe that's just my conservative/gop disposition showing I don't have a hate on for the CIA generally.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
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