EPTHow many games are there where the enemy team is so good that they punish you for buying a Hand of Midas, beating your team, but at the same time your team would have won the game if you hadn't bought one? I bet there have been maybe 5 games in the history of pubs where this happened. Maybe 6 if you're feeling generous.
Hand of Midas is the best pub item
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Yacobs
United States846 Posts
How many games are there where the enemy team is so good that they punish you for buying a Hand of Midas, beating your team, but at the same time your team would have won the game if you hadn't bought one? I bet there have been maybe 5 games in the history of pubs where this happened. Maybe 6 if you're feeling generous. | ||
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Heh_
Singapore2712 Posts
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Chronald
United States619 Posts
Pushing teams will stomp any team that has a carry with Hand of Midas. Imagine any hero (besides Furion) with a Hand of Midas versus a hero that spent the same 1900 on actually useful items. Hand of Midas hero dies, and then the 1900 and the unreliable gold from the Hand get wasted. Hand of Midas is a very niche item. If you are looking for a 'pubstomper' item, it is either Mask of Madness or Helm of the Dominator. Mask of Madness turns any auto attack hero into a monster, and Helm of the Dominator lets anyone with a pulse stack ancient camps for later farming. Plus being able to Mind Control a Centaur or Ursa is a huuuuuge boon that will net the player more money because of their AoE attacks. Most of the time, when you see #1 players on professional teams using Hand of Midas, the #3,4,5 players are changing their builds in order to accommodate for the #1 player's weakness until much later into the game, which is something one cannot expect in a pub game. If you are trolling, then simply go Dagon lvl5 every game, as it is core on all heroes. Especially with the massive buff to it in 6.75 | ||
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Incze
Romania2058 Posts
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myopia
United States2928 Posts
On October 10 2012 23:13 Chronald wrote: the unreliable gold from the Hand get wasted. I can't check the game to confirm atm, but I'm 95% certain that midas gives reliable gold. | ||
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TheStonerer
Canada278 Posts
Rofl, I never thought about it, but midas on lycan could be funny. You get those levels crazy fast lol. | ||
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Yacobs
United States846 Posts
On October 10 2012 23:09 Heh_ wrote: Midas provides 30atk spd for 1900 gold, so you take at least 10 minutes to make your midas pay off. 30 attack speed is good and the money return is not the only thing. You also gain levels faster. It's nice to theory-craft about a pub team that will apply constant pressure via unrelenting pushing in order to finish the game before the 25 minute mark but this only really happens when the losing team is simply outclassed. In which case, you could have bought anything with that 1900 and the result would be the same. I don't believe for a MINUTE that a game would end before the 25 minute mark in a pub game with two evenly matched teams just because one guy buys a Hand of Midas. That's nonsense. | ||
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Yacobs
United States846 Posts
The build-up to midas is pretty hard No it's not. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
- Building Midas doesn't mean you will afk farm. Midas effectively gives you 100gpm (190gold in 100sec) no matter what you do, whether you jungle or not. So, if you are jungling, you are still jungling, if you are ganking, you're still ganking. People jungle because it's much better that way (midas big creep to get max level), doesn't mean it's the only way. | ||
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Doomblaze
United States1292 Posts
On October 11 2012 00:24 canikizu wrote: - There's a perception that it takes midas 10 minutes to pay off. It's not. You build Midas real early while other players still build random items, such as bottle, wraith band, null talisman, bracer, magic wand,.... You usually skip those items and go straight to Midas, you don't build Midas AND then build starting items like other players. So while the midas cost is 1900, if you minus all the trade off, the cost should be only around 1000 gold, so it's about 20 creeps kill, so if you have a good start, building midas should be a good choice for carry. - Building Midas doesn't mean you will afk farm. Midas effectively gives you 100gpm (190gold in 100sec) no matter what you do, whether you jungle or not. So, if you are jungling, you are still jungling, if you are ganking, you're still ganking. People jungle because it's much better that way (midas big creep to get max level), doesn't mean it's the only way. This is wrong. You do build midas and skip other starting items, but that forces you to afk farm. People build bracers, magic wand and bottle to help survive in ganks and teamfights; they are not random items. Having 30 more attack speed is not going to help you, it is going to make you the number 1 target, especially if youre a hard carry early game. If you're a ganking hero with midas, you wont be able to nuke as much as you would otherwise and you'll be squishier, so if they countergank you you will die. Getting a midas is telling the other team that they have 10 mins of 5v4, so if they are competent they will take all 6 of your towers before you have enough farm to be a threat. If your team can defend 4v5 adequately then midas is a good choice and you deserve to win, but if they cant it may be your fault that you lost. I can go dagon 5 bounty hunter in the highest mmr of matchmaking vs tryhard 5stacks/trolling pros and win, so i'm sure going midas and afk farming works very well too. Almost anything works in any matchmaking if your team isnt awful. I went midas-->battfury faceless void yesterday when playing with my bad friends and the random on our team was bitching about how we were gonna lose because we lost long lane and mid, but i carried them because they didnt kill us before i got stacked enough to 1v3 them. I've also had many games where our antimage had freefarm and had a battlefury manta at 20 mins, but the score is already 3-20 and he cant possibly carry us. If he had gone midas, it would have been even worse because he wouldn't have a manta by then. Blindly getting a midas in a pub is assuming that the enemy team wont push you and that your team doesnt need you for 15 mins. If you want to play that way, thats fine, but at some point you'll be punished for it. | ||
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MrTortoise
1388 Posts
Blindly getting a midas in a pub is assuming that the enemy team wont push you and that your team doesnt need you for 15 mins. If you want to play that way, thats fine, but at some point you'll be punished for it. Which brings back to point of thread You already imply that being punished wotn happen often. Therefor mroe often you wont get punished for midas so as OP says its a decent item. Especially on pubs. It has +ev | ||
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Heh_
Singapore2712 Posts
If you're using midas on normal creep waves then the xp boost is really minimal. It basically adds 2.5 additional creep xp every 100 seconds. You're better off actually making sure that your REAL hard carries have uncontested free farm instead of getting forced off the lane, losing much more than 2.5 creeps per 100 seconds. | ||
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Mazer
Canada1086 Posts
The only heroes I get it consistently on are Naix and Furion. | ||
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Yacobs
United States846 Posts
I think it makes perfect sense to check FV's items about 10 minutes in and then get a Midas if he's not doing well. Clinkz doesn't need a ton of items to strike fear into the hearts of enemy supports and he has plenty of opportunity to use Midas on hard-camp creeps since he's stalking the enemy jungle a lot of the time, anyway. You could make similar arguments about a lot of other #1-3 heroes, too, I think -- as long as they have the potential to make a huge impact late game with a level and item advantage. | ||
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fleeze
Germany895 Posts
midas for sure isn't the #1 pub item especially not on anyone that is playing the 2 or 3 role. just as DoomBlaze explained pretty well. it's also a VERY lineup dependant item and since the OP fails to even explain it, this thread is useless, especially with THIS title. if you're up against a pushing team like leshrac, shadow shaman, furion, enigma and juggernaut good luck with your midas. you just cost your team the game (well, furion on the other team could have one  ) | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
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Yacobs
United States846 Posts
it's also a VERY lineup dependant item and since the OP fails to even explain it, this thread is useless, especially with THIS title. if you're up against a pushing team like leshrac, shadow shaman, furion, enigma and juggernaut good luck with your midas. you just cost your team the game (well, furion on the other team could have one )So your counterargument is to list an extremely specific pushing line-up which basically never happens in a pub and, even if it did, would be unlikely to be executed in an effective fashion? Sounds legit. Thanks for proving my point. | ||
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fleeze
Germany895 Posts
On October 11 2012 03:38 Yacobs wrote: So your counterargument is to list an extremely specific pushing line-up which basically never happens in a pub and, even if it did, would be unlikely to be executed in an effective fashion? Sounds legit. Thanks for proving my point. i just presented you with one possible pushing lineup. since this is the strategy section and TL isn't a troll forum like JD or Gosugamers, i think your thread doesn't meet the requirements for such an absolute statement in the topic title. there are clearly situations where a midas is horrible for your team, you should at least put some effort into your OP and list them there. otherwise there might be newer players seeing a thread called MIDAS BEST ITEM and just accept it as a fact. edit: just let me ask you: what matchmaking rating are you playing? the way you describe the skill of your teammates makes it sound like your at the rock bottom of the matchmaking. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 11 2012 02:43 Yacobs wrote: Another point is that in pubs the #1 through #3 roles are not clearly defined. Like, I could pick Clinkz and there's a Faceless Void on my team. Conventional wisdom says a Midas is bad here because the FV is the #1 and Clinkz needs to go out there and pwn face in the midgame. But conventional wisdom is sometimes wrong. In a pub game, there's no way I can be sure that Faceless Void is going to actually do his job. For all I know, he's going to build a MoM and then spend the rest of the game pretending to be a dedicated ganker. Or maybe he's a total noob. Or maybe he'll get off to a good start but stop farming after 20 minutes. I think it makes perfect sense to check FV's items about 10 minutes in and then get a Midas if he's not doing well. Clinkz doesn't need a ton of items to strike fear into the hearts of enemy supports and he has plenty of opportunity to use Midas on hard-camp creeps since he's stalking the enemy jungle a lot of the time, anyway. You could make similar arguments about a lot of other #1-3 heroes, too, I think -- as long as they have the potential to make a huge impact late game with a level and item advantage. Wait, your point of "pubs won't play roles 1-3 properly" is an argument for always playing like your 1st position? If anything, your mentality in pubs should always be to play like you're 2nd position (since 2nd position can get fed enough off well-played ganks/fights to carry, but 1st position could farm their way into a game loss), and Midas is an awful item for controlling the midgame tempo. | ||
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Chronald
United States619 Posts
Get Dagon level 5, crush all noobs before the 30m mark. Since your "best item for pubs" relies on the other players being dead, super mega low MMR, or retardedly noobish, just go for the fast win. Dagon5 has a 15s cooldown now, and works on any hero as opposed to midas, which is really only useful on mass farmers and #1 position heroes. Dagon5 is good on all units because the damage is static, and if you have a friend with you, double dagon5-ing supports is the easiest way to win a pub game. I'd love to know what your MMR is, if the people you play against are really that bad, I'd love to collect some free wins myself. | ||
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Yacobs
United States846 Posts
relies on the other players being dead, super mega low MMR, or retardedly noobish Wrong. Let me guess, you're one of those people who thinks that "Very High" MMR in Dota2 means your games are indistinguishable from pro games and you could be a pro yourself if they'd only just give you a chance. | ||
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NaUj
United States47 Posts
My only problem with OPs post is stating that the anti-situation has only happened a handful of times in the history of pub Dota. Honestly? That single post just shows how little time you have been around Dota and therefore how wrong you are. | ||
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Heh_
Singapore2712 Posts
On October 11 2012 05:14 Yacobs wrote: Wrong. Let me guess, you're one of those people who thinks that "Very High" MMR in Dota2 means your games are indistinguishable from pro games and you could be a pro yourself if they'd only just give you a chance. Then prove it. Post your profile, showcase your games where you won every single time you went midas. You should have a 100% winrate unless you somehow encountered those 5 times where the team countered your midas. Then we can also find out if you're theorycrafting noob or high-level strats. Also, I should criticize your other random statement that makes no sense: How many games have you played that had a hero reaching lvl 25? It's VERY RARE in the current metagame. Maybe about 1 in 10 games. Midas isn't some miracle xp generator that allows you to get lvl 25 in the blink of an eye; in fact if you played the strength of your hero you'll probably win long before hitting lvl 25. | ||
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Chronald
United States619 Posts
On October 11 2012 05:14 Yacobs wrote: Wrong. Let me guess, you're one of those people who thinks that "Very High" MMR in Dota2 means your games are indistinguishable from pro games and you could be a pro yourself if they'd only just give you a chance. Did I ever say that? I simply pointed out that you are most likely playing in a low MMR pool. Personally I do not really play matchmaking since people are, as I said, retards. I play in-house and custom games with friends so that we can actually have fun. And no, I could not go pro in DotA2, since I am not good enough, however I do have half a brain, and am not a generalizing idiot like yourself. | ||
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FinestHour
United States18466 Posts
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Kznn
Brazil9072 Posts
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scorch-
United States816 Posts
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archonOOid
1983 Posts
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paper
13196 Posts
https://dotabuff.com/matches/47467229 qed | ||
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
Hand of Midas is a selfish item. You're basically discounting your ability to fight for about 10 minutes. If your teammates can hold their own, then it's all good. If you're needed to help in the fight, you won't be able to as much. A fast hand of midas against a team comp that won't push that don't gank well will be easily ok. But lots of things work well in pub games. also counters chen creeps!!! | ||
flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
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Yacobs
United States846 Posts
On October 11 2012 10:29 flamewheel wrote: Let's play a hypothetical game. I won't buy Midas and see how that impacts me. You won't buy Town Portal Scrolls and see how that impacts you. Is that supposed to imply that buying a Midas means you can't afford a TP scroll? If so, lol. | ||
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Yacobs
United States846 Posts
On October 11 2012 06:27 Heh_ wrote: It's VERY RARE in the current metagame. You know how I know your opinion is irrelevant? Because you used the word "metagame" to describe pub games. Just in case you misread the OP, this is about pubs, not about pro games. | ||
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Yacobs
United States846 Posts
On October 11 2012 08:10 archonOOid wrote: I've played dota for a while and at my mmr I never see anybody going for midas except furion and with that statement I think that the argument presented in the OP is false. People copy what pros do. Pros don't buy Midas very much, for obvious reasons. I didn't say Midas is an item that pubs buy all the time. I said it's the best item. See the difference? It has to do with the meaning of the two sentences and the fact that they don't mean the same things. | ||
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Yacobs
United States846 Posts
On October 11 2012 07:29 Kznn wrote: Midas is pretty great if you have a good/great start. otherwise you go normal itens. I actually disagree with this. Dota is a snowballing game. If you're at a disadvantage early, you MAY need to take risks in order to come back (depending on the skill levels and strengths/weaknesses of the two teams). Midas allows you to take a risk in order to catch up in farm and levels. | ||
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Drow
Canada60 Posts
On October 11 2012 10:43 Yacobs wrote: Is that supposed to imply that buying a Midas means you can't afford a TP scroll? If so, lol. No he is proposing that a good way to measure if an item is "the best" is to look at how many games you would win if you didn't get it. Saying you can get both means nothing, the important part is if you didnt have an item would you lose games you otherwise would have won with it. | ||
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Heh_
Singapore2712 Posts
On October 11 2012 10:45 Yacobs wrote: You know how I know your opinion is irrelevant? Because you used the word "metagame" to describe pub games. Just in case you misread the OP, this is about pubs, not about pro games. The metagame does cover pubs, if you want to be so anal about your definitions. How many pub games have you seen that drag so late that you can get lvl 25 heroes? A negligible amount of them. Take a look at this: https://dotabuff.com/matches How many matches drag on past 40 minutes? 50 minutes? 60 minutes? How often do you see lvl 25 heroes in these games? Hint: very rarely. On October 11 2012 10:49 Yacobs wrote: I actually disagree with this. Dota is a snowballing game. If you're at a disadvantage early, you MAY need to take risks in order to come back (depending on the skill levels and strengths/weaknesses of the two teams). Midas allows you to take a risk in order to catch up in farm and levels. If you're at a disadvantage early, midas sets you back even further until it has paid off, while the rest of your team gets slaughtered. And learn to edit your posts. Don't post 3 in a row. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On October 11 2012 07:56 scorch- wrote: Midas is not solely an afkfarm item. There was a game where Na'Vi bought TWO hand of midases (hard carry and furion) and then played very aggressively, taking over the enemy jungle. This was the game where Dendi played Sven and ran around the enemy jungle getting kills for 10 minutes straight. By trading heroes aggressively, they amassed a gold and xp advantage because of the way midas gives extra gold and xp to your team. They weren't winning these gank engagements, only breaking even in most cases, but doing so gave them an advantage. 1900 gold is almost a Mek or Drums or various other support items that would far benefit you more than Midas will in direct engagements. If you're winning with dual midas, it means you're just outclassing the other team and can afford to handicap yourself early on. | ||
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On October 11 2012 10:43 Yacobs wrote: Is that supposed to imply that buying a Midas means you can't afford a TP scroll? If so, lol. No. I'm implying that your title is sensationalist. | ||
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Mataza
Germany5364 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + I don´t even buy Midas on Naix and according to statistics, Naix is the second most buyer of Midas and has the only >50% winratio of the top 5 with it. Because games snowball I farm Treads and Armlet, then leave the wood to go be awesome. A 5 second magic immune thing that hits you for 200 damage while slowing you has a much better chance of winning, because at that point Naix is stronger than everyone else in the game. It´s a timing and it comes early. Getting a midas will make you hit later and weaker. Do tell which better hero to get midas on. | ||
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Unleashing
Denmark14978 Posts
If the midas is sold(which most of them are later on) it will not count as a win for the item. | ||
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boxman22
Canada430 Posts
On October 11 2012 16:46 Unleashing wrote: You can't judge midas winrate on dotabuff, because that only counts midas in end-inventory. If the midas is sold(which most of them are later on) it will not count as a win for the item. It's tough to say "most" but it probably does underrate a little. | ||
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LAN-f34r
New Zealand2099 Posts
Not to mention that HoM is boring. Most of the time people play pubs to have fun, not to win. Ganking is generally better than farming for fun, and HoM is terrible if you are ganking. Unless you are playing profit ofc. Then holla holla get dolla, gotta meet dem quotas. | ||
Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
Natures Profit Broodmother Occasionally Sillybear Silencer(don't ask why, I just do for some reason always) Some carries that I play where I get fb in the first 2-3 min WITH a freefarm lane, most of the time ill get the quicker Bfury, Radiance, EB, Agha, Orchid or other items though. | ||
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myopia
United States2928 Posts
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Unleashing
Denmark14978 Posts
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skyride
Scotland103 Posts
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Yacobs
United States846 Posts
On October 11 2012 11:05 Heh_ wrote: Don't post 3 in a row. Don't tell me what to do, internet tough guy. No. I'm implying that your title is sensationalist. No it's not. When someone says "X is the best item," it's pretty obvious they're not including standard consumables that are basically a necessity. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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fleeze
Germany895 Posts
On October 11 2012 22:38 Yacobs wrote: Don't tell me what to do, internet tough guy. No it's not. When someone says "X is the best item," it's pretty obvious they're not including standard consumables that are basically a necessity. You TRIPLEpost and flame the guy that critizes you for it. You give bad advice with an absolute statement and deny your sensationalist title. You ignore the myriad of better players that give better advice about midas You insist on calling midas the best item although proven wrong multiple times WTF is wrong with you? Please stop posting on TL. | ||
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Yacobs
United States846 Posts
On October 11 2012 23:29 fleeze wrote: You TRIPLEpost and flame the guy that critizes you for it. You give bad advice with an absolute statement and deny your sensationalist title. You ignore the myriad of better players that give better advice about midas You insist on calling midas the best item although proven wrong multiple times WTF is wrong with you? Please stop posting on TL. When did I give advice? Which player is better than me? And how would you know? Who has "proven" me wrong? Everyone here is expressing their opinion, nothing more, nothing less. I'll express another one of my opinions: don't post in threads if you have nothing to add to the discussion. | ||
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fleeze
Germany895 Posts
On October 11 2012 23:32 Yacobs wrote: When did I give advice? Which player is better than me? And how would you know? Who has "proven" me wrong? Everyone here is expressing their opinion, nothing more, nothing less. I'll express another one of my opinions: don't post in threads if you have nothing to add to the discussion. Read your fucking title and ask again where you give advice. IF you cared you would know the players from general discussion and other topics. or just look at flamewheels pick for example, should give you a hint. IF you could follow arguments you would have realised, just as anybody else in the thread, that midas has limited uses. btw: it's disgusting and misleading for beginners seeing a thread on TL Dota STRATEGY section labeled MIDAS BEST ITEM. i'm done with you and your thread. there is no point in discussing with someone that can only make absolute statements. | ||
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Yacobs
United States846 Posts
On October 11 2012 23:38 fleeze wrote: your fucking title it's disgusting and misleading for beginners seeing a thread on TL Dota STRATEGY section labeled MIDAS BEST ITEM. Whoa, whoa, fleeze. Did you forget to take your medicine this morning? i'm done with you and your thread. Thank you. | ||
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iGrok
United States5142 Posts
Legs = best item | ||
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
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Doomblaze
United States1292 Posts
Hand of Midas PROS: -Will increase your farm in the long run -Pub players are bad at pushing so there isn't that much threat to getting it -+30% ias is nice CONS: -makes you useless in fights for 15 mins -You will lose many towers if they know how to push discussing hand of midas in pubs is stupid because its so dependent on your team. The other pub threads we have are about how to have more impact in pubs, which is a great idea. A hand of midas thread how to play passive and farm as much as you can so you can carry your team late game, which is not the best idea in pubs, but would also be a great thread. I didn't watch the Na'vi vs darer game where they went hand of midas' so I can't comment on that, but navi is pretty good so they can generally do whatever they want. They are the exception rather than the rule. This thread is about getting hand of midas because OP says its the best item in the game with a low level pub mentality, which is a bad idea. | ||
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On October 11 2012 22:38 Yacobs wrote: Don't tell me what to do, internet tough guy. Here at Team Liquid, we refrain from posting multiple times in a row. You have an option to edit a post; elect to use it. Furthermore, calling someone else an "internet tough guy" most certainly doesn't characterize you as the actual internet tough guy. No it's not. When someone says "X is the best item," it's pretty obvious they're not including standard consumables that are basically a necessity. Given your demonstrated lack of reasoning and stubbornness toward sensible counterarguments, such an assumption (as the one I made) is both sensible and justified. If I were in the mood to repeat what others have already stated in this thread, I'd also tell you that your title is not only sensationalist, but also flat out wrong. Thankfully, there are indeed levelheaded people in this mockery of a thread that have made well-reasoned arguments that you've managed to rebuff in a poor fashion. | ||
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On October 12 2012 00:26 Ack1027 wrote: Today we learned yacobs is retarded and mods don't care about this sub forum. I care~ oh and this right after i said not to double post bahaha | ||
Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
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