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New long-term GMO study shows mortal toxicity

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Kukaracha
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
France1954 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-19 23:31:51
September 19 2012 22:49 GMT
#1
This has sprung on all major French newspapers, but I haven't found anything in english yet. Until then, this will do.
Basically, a new study has researched the long-term effects of Roundup pesticid and a certain type of GMO (nk603 maize, both Monstanto products) on rats, simultaneously and seperately. Rats died from cancer with tumours the size of a ping pong ball.

Graphic image:
+ Show Spoiler +
http://s1.lemde.fr/image/2012/09/19/540x270/1762247_5_2863_photo-du-film-tous-cobayes-de-jean-paul_ca2063403f2a327a7bf7bce9ab3d7c62.jpg


From http://www.gmfreecymru.org/news/Press_Notice19cSept2012.html
First peer reviewed lifetime feeding trial finds "safe" levels of GM maize and roundup can cause tumours and multiple organ damage

The first animal feeding trial studying the lifetime effects of exposure to Roundup tolerant GM maize, and Roundup, the world's best-selling weedkiller, shows that levels currently considered safe can cause tumours and multiple organ damage and lead to premature death in laboratory rats, according to research published online today by the scientific journal Food and Chemical Toxicology.

Researchers found that rats fed on a diet containing NK603 Roundup tolerant GM maize, or given water containing Roundup at levels permitted in drinking water and GM crops in the US, died earlier than rats fed on a standard diet. They suffered mammary tumours and severe liver and kidney damage.

[...]

"This is the most thorough research ever published into the health effects of GM food crops and the herbicide Roundup on rats. It shows an extraordinary number of tumours developing earlier and more aggressively - particularly in female animals. I am shocked by the extreme negative health impacts."

"The rat has long been used as a surrogate for human toxicity. All new pharmaceutical, agricultural and household substances are, prior to their approval, tested on rats. This is as good an indicator as we can expect that the consumption of GM maize and the herbicide Roundup, impacts seriously on human health." In the peer reviewed paper, the research team say they believe this is the first long-term animal feeding trial to examine the effects of Roundup, the world's most used herbicide, and a commercial Roundup tolerant GM maize. Researchers studied 10 groups, each containing 10 male and 10 female rats, over their normal lifetime - two years.

[...]

Researchers found that NK603 and Roundup both caused similar damage to the rats' health whether they were consumed on their own or together. Females developed fatal mammary tumours and pituitary disorders. Males suffered liver damage, developed kidney and skin tumours and experienced problems with their digestive system. The team also identified a "threshold effect" where even the lowest doses were associated with severe health problems.


Full article :

+ Show Spoiler +
First peer reviewed lifetime feeding trial finds "safe" levels of GM maize and roundup can cause tumours and multiple organ damage

The first animal feeding trial studying the lifetime effects of exposure to Roundup tolerant GM maize, and Roundup, the world's best-selling weedkiller, shows that levels currently considered safe can cause tumours and multiple organ damage and lead to premature death in laboratory rats, according to research published online today by the scientific journal Food and Chemical Toxicology.

Researchers found that rats fed on a diet containing NK603 Roundup tolerant GM maize, or given water containing Roundup at levels permitted in drinking water and GM crops in the US, died earlier than rats fed on a standard diet. They suffered mammary tumours and severe liver and kidney damage.

The paper, "Long term toxicity of a Roundup herbicide and a Roundup-tolerant genetically modified maize" reports on a study conducted by a team of scientists led by molecular biologist and endocrinologist Professor Gilles-Eric Seralini, co-director of the Risk Quality and Sustainable Environment Unit at the University of Caen, France, who is an authority on studies into the health impact of GMO's and pesticides. It was supported by independent research organisation, CRIIGEN. Dr Michael Antoniou, molecular biologist at Kings College, London, and a member of the CRIIGEN scientific council, says:

"This is the most thorough research ever published into the health effects of GM food crops and the herbicide Roundup on rats. It shows an extraordinary number of tumours developing earlier and more aggressively - particularly in female animals. I am shocked by the extreme negative health impacts."

"The rat has long been used as a surrogate for human toxicity. All new pharmaceutical, agricultural and household substances are, prior to their approval, tested on rats. This is as good an indicator as we can expect that the consumption of GM maize and the herbicide Roundup, impacts seriously on human health." In the peer reviewed paper, the research team say they believe this is the first long-term animal feeding trial to examine the effects of Roundup, the world's most used herbicide, and a commercial Roundup tolerant GM maize. Researchers studied 10 groups, each containing 10 male and 10 female rats, over their normal lifetime - two years.

Three groups were given Roundup in their drinking water, at three different levels consistent with exposure through the food chain from crops sprayed with the weedkiller: the mid level corresponded to the maximum level permitted in the US in some GM feed; the lowest corresponded to contamination found in some tap waters. Three groups were fed diets which contained different proportions of NK603 – 11%, 22% and 33%. Three groups were given both Roundup and NK603 at the same three dosages. The final control group was fed an equivalent diet with no Roundup or NK603 but containing 33% of equivalent non-GM maize.

Researchers found that NK603 and Roundup both caused similar damage to the rats' health whether they were consumed on their own or together. Females developed fatal mammary tumours and pituitary disorders. Males suffered liver damage, developed kidney and skin tumours and experienced problems with their digestive system. The team also identified a "threshold effect" where even the lowest doses were associated with severe health problems.

The report states: "Similar degrees of pathological symptoms were noticed in this study to occur from the lowest to the highest doses suggesting a threshold effect. This corresponds to levels likely to arise from consumption or environmental exposure, such as either 11% GM maize in food, or 50ng/L of glyphosate in R-formulation [the lowest concentration of Roundup in the rats' drinking water] as can be found in some contaminated drinking tap waters, and which falls within authorized limits."
 Up to 50% of males and 70% of females died prematurely (before deaths could be put down to normal aging) compared with only 30% and 20% in the control group.
 Across all treatments and both sexes, researchers found treated rats developed 2-3 times more large tumours than the control group, defined as 17.5mm in females and 20mm in males.
 By the beginning of the 24th month 50%-80% of females in all treated groups had developed large tumours, with up to three per animal. Only 30% of the controls were affected.
 The tumours "were deleterious to health due to a very large size", making it difficult for the rats to breathe, causing problems with their digestion and resulting in haemorrhaging.
 The first large detectable tumours appeared after four and seven months in males and females respectively but only after 14 months in the female control group and 23 months in a control male. However, the majority of tumours were only detectable after 18 months.

Treated males suffered severe liver and kidney dysfunction. Liver congestions and necrosis were 2.5 to 5.5 times higher than in the control group. There were also 1.3 – 2.3 times more instances of "marked and severe" kidney disease. The lowest dose tested in the study (50 nanograms per litre) is below safety limits for glyphosate in water and crops. EU legislation sets the maximum permitted concentration (MPC) in water at 0.1 g/litre, 1 mg/kg in maize, and 20 mg/kg in other animal feeds like soy, oats and barley. The US sets a Maximum Residual Level (MRL) in some animal feed of 400mg/kg.

The research findings raise serious questions about the current regulatory process for licensing industrial chemicals, pesticides and other novel crops. The scientists observe that GM crops have been approved safe for consumption on the basis of 90-day animal feeding trials. They also point out that only Roundup's active principle, glyphosate, has been tested rather than the commercial product, which includes ingredients that enable the glyphosate to penetrate plants more efficiently. The research also highlights the urgent need for more research into the long-term effects of all GM food crops, which are currently grown on 1.8% of the world's agricultural land. In the US, 70% of processed foods contain GM ingredients without GM labeling, and 85% of maize now grown in the U.S. is GM. In the UK and Europe, GM maize is not consumed directly by humans but it is widely included in animal feed. Hundreds of thousands of tons of GM maize are imported to the UK each year for use in the diets of chickens, pigs and dairy cows. Meat and dairy products from animals fed on GM are currently sold in British supermarkets without any requirement for GM labeling.

Patrick Holden, Founder and Director for the Sustainable Food Trust, says: "This research raises a number of serious issues and it is now essential that regulators examine the findings carefully and that other researchers replicate this study on a larger scale to see if the same results are obtained. "Looking critically at all aspects of food production, be they intensive, low input, organic or GM crops, has become a priority given that we can no longer be sure that global food supplies will be capable of feeding the growing global population. GM crops hold out the promise of helping to meet the triple challenges of climate change, resource depletion and population increase, but if they have negative effects on health we need to recognise this as quickly as possible and apply our energies in other areas.

"On the basis of this study, we have to conclude that there is now a serious question mark over the safety of at least one GM crop. This suggests that all currently licensed GM crops should be re-evaluated and that in future safety studies in laboratory animals must be conducted over significantly longer periods of time that are equivalent to the animals' normal life span not simply their adolescence." The researchers hypothesize that the reason why NK603 GM maize, NK603 sprayed with Roundup, and Roundup on its own, all produced very similar negative health outcomes, is that both the GM maize and the weedkiller Roundup "may cause hormonal disturbances in the same biochemical and physiological pathway."

Glyphosate, the active ingredient in the herbicide Roundup is a known endocrine disruptor, and previous research has shown that it can cause liver and kidney failure if consumed above maximum permitted residue levels. However, this is the first research that suggests that even very low levels, such as those found in drinking water, are harmful when consumed over an extended period. The paper says: "The results of the study presented here clearly demonstrate that lower levels of complete agricultural glyphosate herbicide formulations, at concentrations well below officially set safety limits, induce severe hormone-dependent mammary, hepatic [liver] and kidney disturbances."

It suggests that overexpression of the GM "transgene" EPSPS, which makes NK603 tolerant to Roundup in the field, may disrupt biosynthetic pathways and cause similar problems. Most edible GM crops use EPSPS to make them tolerant to Roundup. Prof Seralini's co-authors are Emilie Clair, Robin Mesnage, Steeve Gress, Nicolas Defarge, Manuela Malatesta, Didier Hennequin, and Joel Spiroux de Vendomois. Copies of the research can be obtained on request from CRIIGEN www.criigen.org and from Food and Chemical Toxicology www.journals.elsevier.com/food-and-chemical-toxicology

Notes to Editors:

CRIIGEN - Committee of Research and Independent Information on Genetic Engineering The Committee of Research and Independent Information on Genetic Engineering (CRIIGEN) is a non-profit organization set up by Professor Gilles-Eric Seralini, Professor of Molecular Biology at Caen University, and former French ecology minister Corinne Lepage MEP, to offer scientific expertise on pollutants to health and environment. It is particularly focused on GMO's and their impact on agriculture, food, medicine and human health. Professor Seralini was in charge of risk assessment for two government commissions and has advised the European Commission, Parliament and Councils and a number of governments on the use of GMO's commercially. Since its establishment, CRIIGEN has campaigned for more transparency in the genetic engineering trials carried out by commercial organisations, the biotech companies. It also lobbies the governments to improve the quality of risk assessment for GMO's.

Previous research by CRIIGEN has included reanalysing existing studies into GM crops. One of these in 2007 concluded that the GM crop, MON 863, adversely affected liver and kidney function in rats. A further reanalysis of three more industry studies in 2009, reaffirmed CRIIGEN's results regarding the crop's toxicity. In 2011 CRIIGEN published a review of 19 published reports on animal GM feeding studies, which found that kidney and liver problems can arise even in 90-day trials. This has become a seminal work and the most consulted report on the topic, downloaded by more than 60,000 scientists from the SpringerOpen databank.

Professor Gilles Eric Séralini – Professor of Molecular Biology and President of the Scientific Board at Committee of Independent Research and Information on Genetic Engineering (CRII-GEN) Gilles Eric Seralini is Professor of Molecular Biology and co-director of the Risk Quality and Sustainable Environment Unit at Caen University, France, and an expert on pesticides, pollutants and the effects of GMO's on health. As a result of his research work into cancer and the disruptors of reproduction, he started to investigate possible pollutants in air, water and food. He established CRIIGEN – Committee of Independent Research and Information on Genetic Engineering – with Corinne LePage, in order to conduct more thorough scientific research into GMO's. He is now the President of the Scientific Board. Professor Seralini was in charge of risk assessment for two French governmental commissions to evaluate GM food and in 2003 he was appointed as an expert for the European Commission to prepare the defence case for the moratorium on commercial GMO's against the US/Canada and Argentina. He has written more than 100 scientific articles and conference papers for international symposiums and spoken globally about the impact of GM food and pesticides on animal and human health. In 2011, he was involved in a high profile law trial where he sued researchers from the French Association of Plant Biotechnologies (AFBV) for defamation when they tried to discredit his reanalysis of Monsanto trials. The court in Paris ruled in his favour.

Dr Michael Antoniou – Reader in Molecular Genetics, Kings College, London School of Medicine, and Member CRIIGEN Scientific Council Dr Michael Antoniou is an expert in molecular biology and GM technology. He has worked as a molecular biologist for 32 years using genetic engineering technology to investigate gene organisation and control, making contributions to the field of human gene therapy. He holds a degree in Biochemistry from the University of Oxford and a PhD in molecular biology from Reading and has over 50 peer-reviewed publications of original work. The Sustainable Food Trust The Sustainable Food Trust was set up by the former director of the Soil Association, Patrick Holden. The charity aims to bring together the many groups and individuals working internationally in this area to help transform our present food system and meet the multiple challenges of climate change, resource depletion, food security and population growth. One of its particular areas of interest is in comparison between different systems of agriculture and their impact on human and environmental health. Professor Seralini approached The Sustainable Food Trust to help communicate the results of the study on a global scale with Dr Michael Antoniou, who is a Member of the CRIIGEN Scientific Council.


The original paper is available here.

Although approved in many countries in Europe or the US, the products had already attracted suspicious looks in the past :
+ Show Spoiler +
The EFSA GMO Panel comes to the conclusion that "there were no adverse effects in a 90-day feeding study on rats with NK603 maize grain." However, a number of statistically significant differences were recorded in this study.
In June 2007, independent scientists (Seralini et al. 2007) re-evaluated a 90-day feeding studies with rats conducted from Monsanto's NK603 application. The study recorded numerous parameters including blood composition and detoxification organs. 67 significant statistical differences were reported but later decleared by Monsanto as "biologically not meaningful". Seralini et al. however found first of all flaws in the study design, and secondly comes to different interpretations of the data. They come to the conclusion that it is not justified to exclude statistically significant differences when they were not recorded to the same degree for male and female rats, when effects were transient or when no dose-effect relationship could be determined.

From : http://www.testbiotech.de/en/node/59

I guess it's time for all of us to live fast, because we'll probably die young!
Le long pour l'un pour l'autre est court (le mot-à-mot du mot "amour").
Kazeyonoma
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2912 Posts
September 19 2012 22:57 GMT
#2
wait, so GM means genetically manipulated i presume? and this is about using a pesticide called Roundup on said crops, which shows adverse effects when congested by rats?
I now have autographs of both BoxeR and NaDa. I can die happy. Lim Yo Hwan and Lee Yun Yeol FIGHTING forever!
Nightsz
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada398 Posts
September 19 2012 23:01 GMT
#3
What? For all we know, it said that it was using Roundup (I assume the pesticide) on GM crops. For all we know, the GM crops could've had no impact whatsoever, and it was the pesticide doing all the harm.
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-19 23:21:19
September 19 2012 23:03 GMT
#4
Reserving this until I have read the actual paper, but from the OP it seems fishy already.

EDIT: looks to me from Figure 1's top left panel that the herbicide Round-up actually reduces mortality! Oh the humanity!

Yes I was being sarcastic. But really, I don't see any convincing evidence that the GM corn actually caused higher mortality in rats.
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
Bigtony
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States1606 Posts
September 19 2012 23:04 GMT
#5
On September 20 2012 08:01 Nightsz wrote:
What? For all we know, it said that it was using Roundup (I assume the pesticide) on GM crops. For all we know, the GM crops could've had no impact whatsoever, and it was the pesticide doing all the harm.


? No. Reading comprehension:

Researchers found that rats fed on a diet containing NK603 Roundup tolerant GM maize, OR given water containing Roundup at levels permitted in drinking water and GM crops in the US,
Push 2 Harder
Voltaire
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1485 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-19 23:07:19
September 19 2012 23:04 GMT
#6
On September 20 2012 08:01 Nightsz wrote:
What? For all we know, it said that it was using Roundup (I assume the pesticide) on GM crops. For all we know, the GM crops could've had no impact whatsoever, and it was the pesticide doing all the harm.


This guy is right. The test plant they were using just happened to be a genetically modified corn crop. Though apparently the crop itself caused the exact same problems? That's kind of hard to believe...



Well hopefully we're immune to this stuff and this only happens with rats.
As long as people believe in absurdities they will continue to commit atrocities.
Kukaracha
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
France1954 Posts
September 19 2012 23:04 GMT
#7
They teste both, and then each seperately. All tests were lethal to some degree. I'll add this to the OP, becaus you're right, we suspected pesticids to be dangerous but GMOs were never proven to be harmful.

To be clear, some rats were fiven Roundup and GMO food. They had a bad time.
Some rats were given only Roundup. They had a bad time.
Some rats were only given GMOs. They had a bad time.
Le long pour l'un pour l'autre est court (le mot-à-mot du mot "amour").
AUGcodon
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada536 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-20 01:28:56
September 19 2012 23:05 GMT
#8
This is probably the most relevant graph for discussion


Mortality graph
Uploaded wrong one ops, brb
Fig. 1. Mortality of rats fed GMO treated or not with Roundup, and effects of Roundup alone. Rats were fed with NK603 GM maize (with or without application of Roundup) at three different doses (11, 22, 33% in their diet: thin, medium and bold lines, respectively) compared to the substantially equivalent closest isogenic non-GM maize (control,
dotted line). Roundup was administrated in drinking water at 3 increasing doses, same symbols (environmental (A), MRL in agricultural GMOs (B) and half of minimal agricultural levels (C), see Section 2). Lifespan during the experiment for the control group is represented by the vertical bar ± SEM (grey area). In bar histograms, the causes of
mortality before the grey area are detailed in comparison to the controls (0). In black are represented the necessary euthanasia because of suffering in accordance with ethical
rules (tumors over 25% body weight, more than 25% weight loss, hemorrhagic bleeding, etc.); and in hatched areas, spontaneous mortality.

Cancer graph
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Legend:Fig. 2. Largest non-regressive tumors in rats fed GMO treated or not by Roundup, and effects of Roundup alone. The symbols of curves and treatments are explained in the caption of Fig. 1. The largest tumors were palpable during the experiment and numbered from 20 mm in diameter for males and 17.5 mm for females. Above this size, 95% of
growths were non-regressive tumors. Summary of all tumors are shown in the bar histograms: black, non regressive largest tumors; white, small internal tumors; grey,metastases.

Direct link to the graph

GMO represent just the the crop, GMO + R is the crop and pesticide, and R is just the pesticide. This graph basically tells you how fast rats develop the tumor. The dotted line represent the rats who do not eat GMO. The continuous line represent the rats that are fed by the GMO. the thinnest line is when their diet consist 11% of the GMO, the medium bolded line is 22%, and really bolded line is 33%.

So, when you look at females, you see those fed in GMO develop tumors much faster than themselves. the effect is less dramatic in males.
2809-8732-2116/ Fighting/ Mienfoo, Tyrogue, Sawk
laszmosis
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia112 Posts
September 19 2012 23:06 GMT
#9
Here is a link to an english article: http://gizmodo.com/5944507/monsanto-weedkiller-and-gm-maize-linked-to-tumor-risk
85% of maize grown in US is GM. Note, the study was tested on a specific strand (the most common?), so I don't know what fraction that takes up. Pretty ridiculous. Says they only have been doing 90 days trial to test the health impacts of the combination of GM crops and pesticides. A more longer trial method is clearly needed.
Heh_
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Singapore2712 Posts
September 19 2012 23:10 GMT
#10
Why has it not been published? Because it is scientifically dubious.

Here's an English source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19654825
=Þ
Kukaracha
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
France1954 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-19 23:16:16
September 19 2012 23:15 GMT
#11
On September 20 2012 08:10 Heh_ wrote:
Why has it not been published? Because it is scientifically dubious.

Here's an English source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19654825

It's not really that it's dubvious, any study calls for criticism that researchers need to answer to.

The main reason is that it's new, so it reached French newspapers first; a second reason is that it still has to go through the process of peer review (which will give a new dimension to the study).

Edit : hey you're that pro-GMO guy from the last thread! :p
Le long pour l'un pour l'autre est court (le mot-à-mot du mot "amour").
Zealotdriver
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States1557 Posts
September 19 2012 23:17 GMT
#12
They fed rats high doses of glyphosate, aka RoundUp, and unsurprisingly the rats had health problems. This article is just more theatrics from the anti-GM crowd.
Turn off the radio
Roflhaxx
Profile Joined April 2010
Korea (South)1244 Posts
September 19 2012 23:18 GMT
#13
I don't fully understand, what brand of food is this? Or is it just pesticide?
A game where the first thing you do is scout with a “worker”. Does that make any sense? Who scouts with a “worker”? That’s like sending out the janitor to perform recon, what general would do that? Retarded game.
NeMeSiS3
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Canada2972 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-19 23:19:08
September 19 2012 23:18 GMT
#14
Could explain the massive influx of cancer rates. Or at least be one of the many reasons (pollution etc)

On September 20 2012 08:18 Roflhaxx wrote:
I don't fully understand, what brand of food is this? Or is it just pesticide?


Pesticides go on crops, you eat crops so it is a multitude of foods.
FoTG fighting!
Zooper31
Profile Joined May 2009
United States5711 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-19 23:21:16
September 19 2012 23:19 GMT
#15
On September 20 2012 08:04 Kukaracha wrote:
They teste both, and then each seperately. All tests were lethal to some degree. I'll add this to the OP, becaus you're right, we suspected pesticids to be dangerous but GMOs were never proven to be harmful.

To be clear, some rats were fiven Roundup and GMO food. They had a bad time.
Some rats were given only Roundup. They had a bad time.
Some rats were only given GMOs. They had a bad time.


So you knowingly made a thread without providing information that you knew and had on hand that would've hugely affected the discussion?

Anyway I don't think anyone could dis-agree that eating/drinking chemicals that are in Roundup is bad, or eating Genetically Muniplulated corn could be bad for your health in the longterm. Both are horrible ideas imo.
Asato ma sad gamaya, tamaso ma jyotir gamaya, mrtyor mamrtam gamaya
laszmosis
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia112 Posts
September 19 2012 23:19 GMT
#16
I guess these rats were only eating this stuff for the whole duration, no human will do that. But I guess in regular amounts, it adds on a small percentage to your chances of growing cancer, which a lot of things do. So lets say you have 10 or 15 sources that give you a 0.1% chance to grow cancer in a year, that's 10% or 15% chance to get cancer over 10 years. Making up numbers, but you see the point. So it is worrying, even though there might be a small percentage that it will give us cancer for the amount we eat.
Eatme
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
Switzerland3919 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-19 23:20:14
September 19 2012 23:19 GMT
#17
Well one should assume that all agricultural chemicals in general should be harmful since they are designed to kill things. I'd like to see studies that whatever herbicide used on non GM crops is totally safe. I'm pretty sure they are at the same level or worse than Roundup.
GM crops are awesome and are actually just a shortcut in what we have been doing "manually" breeding certain strains ect. And dont get me started on the anti famine part (since it's so complex in itself with factors that are clearly off topic) where there are huge possiblities in this area.
I have the best fucking lawyers in the country including the man they call the Malmis.
Phanekim
Profile Joined April 2003
United States777 Posts
September 19 2012 23:19 GMT
#18
i wonder what levels are they talking about. ive always wondered if these pesticides are somewhat of a cause of higher cancer rates.
i like cheese
sevencck
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada705 Posts
September 19 2012 23:20 GMT
#19
This is published in a decent journal, I can access the journal article because I'm at a university. This passed peer review, it must have some merit.
I like to think that the moon is there even if I am not looking at it. -Albert Einstein
Xiphos
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada7507 Posts
September 19 2012 23:21 GMT
#20
Hey can someone link me up the french link to this study, want to brush up on some my High School learned skills. lol
2014 - ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ Raise your bows brood warriors! ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ
Xapti
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2473 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-19 23:25:28
September 19 2012 23:24 GMT
#21
I glimpsed the study and couldn't really tell what water was used for the GMO-eating rats were, because they didn't seem to mention it (even though they mentioned for the other groups), but the graphs as well as the lack of information seem to imply that it was regular water used and not pesticide water.
Additionally, I found it hard to find/notice the bad effects of the GMO-only group compared to the GMO+pesticide groups, pesticide only groups, or control groups.

In my opinion the most important information is only with regards to the safety of the GMO, because it's quite obvious a pesticide would be harmful.
"Then he told me to tell you that he wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire" — "Well, you tell him that I said that I wouldn't piss on him if he was on Jeopardy!"
darkscream
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada2310 Posts
September 19 2012 23:29 GMT
#22
For those not in the know, here's how it works:

Monsanto genetically modifies many crops (eg: corn, soy, etc) so that they are resistant to the pesticide, Roundup. Hence the term, "roundup-ready seeds". There's been questions for a long time about how the poison or the crops effect people, there had not been many studies done. This lead to a lot of tinfoil-hatting about GMO crops.

Well, this study means it might not be so crazy. Maybe.
Goozen
Profile Joined February 2012
Israel701 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-19 23:31:02
September 19 2012 23:29 GMT
#23
One of the main problems is that the rats are given a constant of permitted levels whereas you will rarely even hit that much and never consistently.
Also this is why you always wash your food and encourage natural pesticide instead of chem ones.


On September 20 2012 08:29 darkscream wrote:
For those not in the know, here's how it works:

Monsanto genetically modifies many crops (eg: corn, soy, etc) so that they are resistant to the pesticide, Roundup. Hence the term, "roundup-ready seeds". There's been questions for a long time about how the poison or the crops effect people, there had not been many studies done. This lead to a lot of tinfoil-hatting about GMO crops.

Well, this study means it might not be so crazy. Maybe.


You mean resistant to pests no?
MisterFred
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2033 Posts
September 19 2012 23:34 GMT
#24
This is NOT new, and it has nothing to do with genetic modifications THEMSELVES being toxic.

Anytime farmers over use pesticides on the plants they grow, some of that is going to get into the food supplies and our bodies. The study only reveals that Monsanto's GMO corn allows an unhealthy farming practice - smothering the GMO coin with pesticide. Meaning Roundup. Of course Roundup is toxic to humans (and rats), it's supposed to be.
"The victor? Not the highest scoring, nor the best strategist, nor the best tactitian. The victor was he that was closest to the Tao of FFA." -.Praetor
Xapti
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2473 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-19 23:36:34
September 19 2012 23:35 GMT
#25
On September 20 2012 08:29 Goozen wrote:
You mean resistant to pests no?

That can also happen with GMOs, but in this case I think it's corn that's more tolerant/resistant to herbicides.
On September 20 2012 08:34 MisterFred wrote:
This is NOT new, and it has nothing to do with genetic modifications THEMSELVES being toxic.

Anytime farmers over use pesticides on the plants they grow, some of that is going to get into the food supplies and our bodies. The study only reveals that Monsanto's GMO corn allows an unhealthy farming practice - smothering the GMO coin with pesticide. Meaning Roundup. Of course Roundup is toxic to humans (and rats), it's supposed to be.

Well the study has a small percentage (maybe 25%) where it's supposedly/apparently testing rats which are eating only the GMO, and no pesticides. I was talking about this in my first post (which is the first post on this page)
"Then he told me to tell you that he wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire" — "Well, you tell him that I said that I wouldn't piss on him if he was on Jeopardy!"
MisterFred
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2033 Posts
September 19 2012 23:36 GMT
#26
On September 20 2012 08:29 Goozen wrote:
One of the main problems is that the rats are given a constant of permitted levels whereas you will rarely even hit that much and never consistently.
Also this is why you always wash your food and encourage natural pesticide instead of chem ones.


Show nested quote +
On September 20 2012 08:29 darkscream wrote:
For those not in the know, here's how it works:

Monsanto genetically modifies many crops (eg: corn, soy, etc) so that they are resistant to the pesticide, Roundup. Hence the term, "roundup-ready seeds". There's been questions for a long time about how the poison or the crops effect people, there had not been many studies done. This lead to a lot of tinfoil-hatting about GMO crops.

Well, this study means it might not be so crazy. Maybe.


You mean resistant to pests no?


No, emphatically NOT.

They modify the plants to be resistant to the pesticide. The GMO plants have zero extra resistance to pests. But farmers can spray them with far more poison than they used to be able to without damaging the plant itself. This reduces the pests, but adds the problem of trace amounts of the pesticide getting into the food chain.

Oddly enough, regularly eating small amounts of poison is bad for your health. This is what the study confirms.
"The victor? Not the highest scoring, nor the best strategist, nor the best tactitian. The victor was he that was closest to the Tao of FFA." -.Praetor
AUGcodon
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada536 Posts
September 19 2012 23:36 GMT
#27
On September 20 2012 08:34 MisterFred wrote:
This is NOT new, and it has nothing to do with genetic modifications THEMSELVES being toxic.

Anytime farmers over use pesticides on the plants they grow, some of that is going to get into the food supplies and our bodies. The study only reveals that Monsanto's GMO corn allows an unhealthy farming practice - smothering the GMO coin with pesticide. Meaning Roundup. Of course Roundup is toxic to humans (and rats), it's supposed to be.


Read the study itself, or look at my previous post. even without pesticide, the GMO increase the number of tumors.
2809-8732-2116/ Fighting/ Mienfoo, Tyrogue, Sawk
ZeaL.
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States5955 Posts
September 19 2012 23:38 GMT
#28
Honestly looking at their methodology, it doesn't seem like they designed their study very well. 100 male mice + 100 female mice in split into groups of 10 for 3 groups of roundup, 3 groups of gmo, and 3 groups of gmo + roundup + only 1 group for control. If they just picked 10 healthy mice for each sex as a control it would look like the rest are diseased by comparison, not sure why the sample sizes are so low. I looked for p-values but only got one result for the biochemical analysis.... .....
...

Given that the lead researcher on this topic has written a number of books on why GMO's are bad for you I would take this study with a grain of salt.
MisterFred
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2033 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-19 23:44:17
September 19 2012 23:43 GMT
#29
On September 20 2012 08:36 AUGcodon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2012 08:34 MisterFred wrote:
This is NOT new, and it has nothing to do with genetic modifications THEMSELVES being toxic.

Anytime farmers over use pesticides on the plants they grow, some of that is going to get into the food supplies and our bodies. The study only reveals that Monsanto's GMO corn allows an unhealthy farming practice - smothering the GMO coin with pesticide. Meaning Roundup. Of course Roundup is toxic to humans (and rats), it's supposed to be.


Read the study itself, or look at my previous post. even without pesticide, the GMO increase the number of tumors.


I didn't see a mention that they grew their own organic crop of NK603, thus I assumed that the researchers acquired commercially grown NK603 maize for the rats that had NK603 maize in their diet but no additional roundup. In that case, trace amounts of roundup should have been present in the maize fed to the rats itself, basically in every group but the control group not fed NK603 maize.

However, if I was wrong about that, I apologize.
"The victor? Not the highest scoring, nor the best strategist, nor the best tactitian. The victor was he that was closest to the Tao of FFA." -.Praetor
Kukaracha
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
France1954 Posts
September 19 2012 23:43 GMT
#30
On September 20 2012 08:19 Eatme wrote:
Well one should assume that all agricultural chemicals in general should be harmful since they are designed to kill things. I'd like to see studies that whatever herbicide used on non GM crops is totally safe. I'm pretty sure they are at the same level or worse than Roundup.
GM crops are awesome and are actually just a shortcut in what we have been doing "manually" breeding certain strains ect. And dont get me started on the anti famine part (since it's so complex in itself with factors that are clearly off topic) where there are huge possiblities in this area.

On September 20 2012 08:17 Zealotdriver wrote:
They fed rats high doses of glyphosate, aka RoundUp, and unsurprisingly the rats had health problems. This article is just more theatrics from the anti-GM crowd.

On September 20 2012 08:24 Xapti wrote:
Additionally, I found it hard to find/notice the bad effects of the GMO-only group compared to the GMO+pesticide groups, pesticide only groups, or control groups.


[image loading]

On September 20 2012 08:18 Roflhaxx wrote:
I don't fully understand, what brand of food is this? Or is it just pesticide?

It's a genetically modified corn owned by Monsanto, and a pesticide owned by Monsanto too. Both were tested, both simultaneously and seperately.

On September 20 2012 08:19 Zooper31 wrote:
So you knowingly made a thread without providing information that you knew and had on hand that would've hugely affected the discussion?

Anyway I don't think anyone could dis-agree that eating/drinking chemicals that are in Roundup is bad, or eating Genetically Muniplulated corn could be bad for your health in the longterm. Both are horrible ideas imo.

No, it was there, I simply didn't bold it (shame on me).

On September 20 2012 08:21 Xiphos wrote:
Hey can someone link me up the french link to this study, want to brush up on some my High School learned skills. lol

I believe scientific papers are originally released in english, no?

On September 20 2012 08:38 ZeaL. wrote:
Given that the lead researcher on this topic has written a number of books on why GMO's are bad for you I would take this study with a grain of salt.

True, only time will tell. But it is the first long-term study on the matter, which is a good thing anyway.
Le long pour l'un pour l'autre est court (le mot-à-mot du mot "amour").
Heh_
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Singapore2712 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-19 23:44:53
September 19 2012 23:43 GMT
#31
On September 20 2012 08:15 Kukaracha wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2012 08:10 Heh_ wrote:
Why has it not been published? Because it is scientifically dubious.

Here's an English source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19654825

It's not really that it's dubvious, any study calls for criticism that researchers need to answer to.

The main reason is that it's new, so it reached French newspapers first; a second reason is that it still has to go through the process of peer review (which will give a new dimension to the study).

Edit : hey you're that pro-GMO guy from the last thread! :p

Yup, I strongly believe that most GM foods are not harmful. This one is a bit tricky, because it involves pesticides that ought to work on insects only, but might have unintended effects on humans.

The scientists quoted in the BBC article used some very harsh words for the paper. Like the choice of rat and the deliberate hiding of results from the control rats; if you do research you better show all your controls, otherwise it's really dubious. This article was edited, but in a previous version that I read another scientist called the article "statistical fishing", in other words using dubious statistical methods to show "statistical significance". I can actually do the same thing and using very sketchy statistics, say there's no significant difference between black and white.

Also the type of tumors that the rats had is even more dubious. Mammary tumors (aka breast cancer). If the pesticide was so carcinogenic, why don't we see liver tumors, leukemia and other types of cancer? Why only mammary tumors? Also, there was no mention about kidney and liver function. A foreign chemical has the potential to cause kindey and/or liver failure.. that was the conclusion I expected, not some mammary tumors that this strain of rat is susceptible to.

I would like to read the paper, but I don't have access to the paper. Maybe when I go back to my Uni tomorrow, or someone uploads the pdf for free: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278691512005637

Edit: Ok I see you uploaded some images from the paper. Figure legends please. I have no idea what the heck those lines correspond to.
=Þ
RavenLoud
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada1100 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-19 23:50:31
September 19 2012 23:49 GMT
#32
I don't believe in those GM foods, how am I suppose to trust that something is safe to eat when it has say a scorpion gene in it to protect itself? I saw a documentary in which the cows that has been presented with both GM corn and normal corn all went after the normal box and didn't even want to touch the GM corn, like they can sense that it wasn't good for them.

Traditional selective crossbreeding can still work without the need to go for dangerous shortcuts.
AUGcodon
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada536 Posts
September 19 2012 23:52 GMT
#33
On September 20 2012 08:43 Heh_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2012 08:15 Kukaracha wrote:
On September 20 2012 08:10 Heh_ wrote:
Why has it not been published? Because it is scientifically dubious.

Here's an English source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19654825

It's not really that it's dubvious, any study calls for criticism that researchers need to answer to.

The main reason is that it's new, so it reached French newspapers first; a second reason is that it still has to go through the process of peer review (which will give a new dimension to the study).

Edit : hey you're that pro-GMO guy from the last thread! :p

Yup, I strongly believe that most GM foods are not harmful. This one is a bit tricky, because it involves pesticides that ought to work on insects only, but might have unintended effects on humans.

The scientists quoted in the BBC article used some very harsh words for the paper. Like the choice of rat and the deliberate hiding of results from the control rats; if you do research you better show all your controls, otherwise it's really dubious. This article was edited, but in a previous version that I read another scientist called the article "statistical fishing", in other words using dubious statistical methods to show "statistical significance". I can actually do the same thing and using very sketchy statistics, say there's no significant difference between black and white.

Also the type of tumors that the rats had is even more dubious. Mammary tumors (aka breast cancer). If the pesticide was so carcinogenic, why don't we see liver tumors, leukemia and other types of cancer? Why only mammary tumors? Also, there was no mention about kidney and liver function. A foreign chemical has the potential to cause kindey and/or liver failure.. that was the conclusion I expected, not some mammary tumors that this strain of rat is susceptible to.

I would like to read the paper, but I don't have access to the paper. Maybe when I go back to my Uni tomorrow, or someone uploads the pdf for free: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278691512005637

Edit: Ok I see you uploaded some images from the paper. Figure legends please. I have no idea what the heck those lines correspond to.


my post on the previous page contain the 2 most relevant figures and their legend
2809-8732-2116/ Fighting/ Mienfoo, Tyrogue, Sawk
Green Sun s Zenith
Profile Joined February 2012
Canada85 Posts
September 19 2012 23:53 GMT
#34
I wonder why they don't want to label foods that are genetically modified. They know its terrible for human consumption yet they put mass GMO out in the market, unlabeled. So people can not choose whether or not to eat genetically modified foods.
"The Federal Reserve banks are one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever seen. There is not a man within the sound of my voice who does not know that this nation is run by the International bankers." — Congressman Louis T. McFadden (Rep. P
AUGcodon
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada536 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-20 00:05:11
September 19 2012 23:55 GMT
#35
I am not much of expert when it comes to animal controls. Anyone care to give us more info? Oh man I just realized, it's not even peer reviewed yet. I was looking for the editors to see if they have any big names there. Probably a good idea to wait until it gets peer reviewed.
2809-8732-2116/ Fighting/ Mienfoo, Tyrogue, Sawk
MisterFred
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2033 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-19 23:59:58
September 19 2012 23:57 GMT
#36
On September 20 2012 08:43 Heh_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2012 08:15 Kukaracha wrote:
On September 20 2012 08:10 Heh_ wrote:
Why has it not been published? Because it is scientifically dubious.

Here's an English source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19654825

It's not really that it's dubvious, any study calls for criticism that researchers need to answer to.

The main reason is that it's new, so it reached French newspapers first; a second reason is that it still has to go through the process of peer review (which will give a new dimension to the study).

Edit : hey you're that pro-GMO guy from the last thread! :p

Yup, I strongly believe that most GM foods are not harmful. This one is a bit tricky, because it involves pesticides that ought to work on insects only, but might have unintended effects on humans.

The scientists quoted in the BBC article used some very harsh words for the paper. Like the choice of rat and the deliberate hiding of results from the control rats; if you do research you better show all your controls, otherwise it's really dubious. This article was edited, but in a previous version that I read another scientist called the article "statistical fishing", in other words using dubious statistical methods to show "statistical significance". I can actually do the same thing and using very sketchy statistics, say there's no significant difference between black and white.

Also the type of tumors that the rats had is even more dubious. Mammary tumors (aka breast cancer). If the pesticide was so carcinogenic, why don't we see liver tumors, leukemia and other types of cancer? Why only mammary tumors? Also, there was no mention about kidney and liver function. A foreign chemical has the potential to cause kindey and/or liver failure.. that was the conclusion I expected, not some mammary tumors that this strain of rat is susceptible to.

I would like to read the paper, but I don't have access to the paper. Maybe when I go back to my Uni tomorrow, or someone uploads the pdf for free: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278691512005637

Edit: Ok I see you uploaded some images from the paper. Figure legends please. I have no idea what the heck those lines correspond to.


Most pesticides (including roundup?) are neuro-toxins. They are intended to work only on insects purely because of the intended dosages. Not because they have 'unintended' effects on humans. They're SUPPOSED to be harmful to humans. In sufficiently large amounts they will cripple or kill people. Most of those pesticides that aren't neuro-toxins are hormones sufficiently similar to estrogen to screw with an insect's internal chemistry. Again, they supposedly don't affect humans only because of the dosages. (BTW, if Roundup is one of these, it'd be a good reason mammary tumors were more likely than other types.)

Both types of pesticide are present in the body of every single person reading this forum, in varying amounts (through food, water supplies, even wind-blown and other environmental contaminants). The long-term health effects of these chemicals are unknown.

On a personal note, I have nothing against GMO crops per se, but the VAST majority of GMO crops are designed merely to increase agriculture's dependence on the chemical industry (who do you think MAKES Roundup? Monsanto). Now, perhaps the high yields permitted are necessary. I am opposed to most GMO crops because they lead to more chemical contaminants in the environment (meaning: my body and your body), and thus I tend to be opposed to them.
"The victor? Not the highest scoring, nor the best strategist, nor the best tactitian. The victor was he that was closest to the Tao of FFA." -.Praetor
archonOOid
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
1983 Posts
September 20 2012 00:00 GMT
#37
Seems like another leftist attack on corporate engineering and wealth.
I've seen GMO at first hand and it's really safe.
The agro-chemical industry isn't like tobacco companies.
I'm Quotable (IQ)
MisterFred
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2033 Posts
September 20 2012 00:04 GMT
#38
On September 20 2012 08:53 Green Sun s Zenith wrote:
I wonder why they don't want to label foods that are genetically modified. They know its terrible for human consumption yet they put mass GMO out in the market, unlabeled. So people can not choose whether or not to eat genetically modified foods.


GMO corn is included, one way or another, in almost every non-organic food in the supermarket (United States). Everything with High Fructose Corn Syrup (including virtually all bread, for pete's sake) likely comes at least partially from Roundup-ready corn (that strain is a huge percentage of the U.S. harvest). Every Dorito, every corn tortilla, every Coke (except Mexican Coke, lol, yay sucrose), plus virtually every steak and hot dog and sausage contains elements of GMO corn (animal feed).

Getting to the point the labeling is meaningless, you just have to assume it's in everything processed that's non-organic. Which means it's pretty much unavoidable.
"The victor? Not the highest scoring, nor the best strategist, nor the best tactitian. The victor was he that was closest to the Tao of FFA." -.Praetor
MisterFred
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2033 Posts
September 20 2012 00:05 GMT
#39
On September 20 2012 09:00 archonOOid wrote:
Seems like another leftist attack on corporate engineering and wealth.
I've seen GMO at first hand and it's really safe.
The agro-chemical industry isn't like tobacco companies.


Yes, leftists have a deep desire for everyone to be poor. *rolls eyes*
"The victor? Not the highest scoring, nor the best strategist, nor the best tactitian. The victor was he that was closest to the Tao of FFA." -.Praetor
SnipedSoul
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada2158 Posts
September 20 2012 00:09 GMT
#40
Isn't it strange that both GMO corn and roundup cause exactly the same problems? Kidney damage, liver damage, and the same kinds of tumors. How much roundup was still in the corn the mice were eating?
dmfg
Profile Joined May 2008
United Kingdom591 Posts
September 20 2012 00:12 GMT
#41
On September 20 2012 08:53 Green Sun s Zenith wrote:
I wonder why they don't want to label foods that are genetically modified. They know its terrible for human consumption yet they put mass GMO out in the market, unlabeled. So people can not choose whether or not to eat genetically modified foods.


The scientifici evidence that GMO crops are harmful to humans is contentious at best, and certainly not strong enough to warrant any kind of warning on the labels.

If you want to avoid eating any genetically modified foods, you're probably best off growing your own from stock harvested in the 1400s. More or less everything you eat is genetically modified to varying extents.
Heh_
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Singapore2712 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-20 00:17:45
September 20 2012 00:14 GMT
#42
@AUGCodon: Okay I just saw your post. If you could link a pdf with the entire article, it would be great. The materials and methods section is really important, and I can't tell much without it. Also did you upload the same figure twice?

Ok problems with the graph: what's on the Y axis? Number of animals? What are the total number of animals? If animals are euthanized (killed humanely) before the end-of-experiment timepoint, how is this represented on this graph? This Y axis is best represented by percentages, not absolute numbers, because it's very easy to hide information (the number of control mice may be half the number of the others). The inset bar graph is even more sketchy. What is it showing?

If I eyeball the data, it really doesn't seem like there's any difference between the controls and the 3 different groups of mice. If your hypothesis is that the 33% treated rats would do much worse than 11%, the trend appears to be reversed. However, the numbers of rats that are affected are really smallso you cannot conclude anything from 1 or 2 less mice with tumors. You need at least like 50 rats for each group (so like 200 rats total) before you can see any trends. The result shown in that figure is definitely not statistically significant, I don't even need to see their statistical method to infer that.

About animal: When trying to score yes/no (tumor appearances), you need really really large numbers, because these are stochastic events. For example, group A animals have 30% incidence of tumors and group B animals have 50% incidence of tumors. If each group has only 10 animals, then it's statistically not significant because there's too little animals used to see a trend. If there were 100 animals used, then it might be statistically significant. If 1000 were used, then yeah that's a clear trend. In general, the more animals used, the greater the statistical power.

About controls: You ALWAYS need a control. If you treat the rats with pesticide and see 30% tumors, you might think that's a high incidence of tumors. When happens if the same rats were left without pesticide and 29% developed tumors? That means that the pesticide administration increased tumor incidence by 1%, aka a very insignificant amount. It would also be good if you have a positive control, aka a chemical that causes tumors, to know what a positive result is supposed to look like. If these rats now have a 70% tumor incidence rate, then that's a result that's good to know. If the rats have a 32% tumor rate after treating with the cancer-inducing chemical, then this strain of rats aren't good to test on because there isn't much difference at all between your positive and negative controls.

@MisterFred: Show me the research. Published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. Otherwise, you're just spouting baseless conspiracy theories. On the subject of "everything is a neurotoxin", did you know caffeine completely fucks insects and spiders up? Somehow we're not adversely affected by it, geez that's a good counter-example I pointed out. If you don't believe me, just google "spider web caffeine".
=Þ
Xapti
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2473 Posts
September 20 2012 00:14 GMT
#43
On September 20 2012 08:43 Kukaracha wrote:

Show nested quote +
On September 20 2012 08:24 Xapti wrote:
Additionally, I found it hard to find/notice the bad effects of the GMO-only group compared to the GMO+pesticide groups, pesticide only groups, or control groups.

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

I saw that picture. First of all thanks for re-posting, because my PDF reader had a giant black circle blocking the top-left corner almost entirely, plus partially on two adjacent graphs.
That said, it doesn't show the control on that graph. Also notice the odd fact that the GMO+R had problems than just the GMO, which seems counter-intuitive.
"Then he told me to tell you that he wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire" — "Well, you tell him that I said that I wouldn't piss on him if he was on Jeopardy!"
AnachronisticAnarchy
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States2957 Posts
September 20 2012 00:17 GMT
#44
On September 20 2012 09:00 archonOOid wrote:
Seems like another leftist attack on corporate engineering and wealth.
I've seen GMO at first hand and it's really safe.
The agro-chemical industry isn't like tobacco companies.


Yeah...no. Almost no companies have leaders with any humanity. Most will indirectly torture and kill thousands if it means more money.
"How are you?" "I am fine, because it is not normal to scream in pain."
archonOOid
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
1983 Posts
September 20 2012 00:18 GMT
#45
Non-GMO crops are untested and could potentially be harmful but where are the environmentalists on that end of the stick? It all boils down to anti-corporate, anti-scientific and anti-market hostilities. GMO have been used to increase yields and will be even more important as the world population is growing.
I'm Quotable (IQ)
SnipedSoul
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada2158 Posts
September 20 2012 00:22 GMT
#46
On September 20 2012 09:17 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2012 09:00 archonOOid wrote:
Seems like another leftist attack on corporate engineering and wealth.
I've seen GMO at first hand and it's really safe.
The agro-chemical industry isn't like tobacco companies.


Yeah...no. Almost no companies have leaders with any humanity. Most will indirectly torture and kill thousands if it means more money.


And yet people keep supporting these evil businesses by buying their stuff. Shows how much the average person cares.
Kukaracha
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
France1954 Posts
September 20 2012 00:23 GMT
#47
On September 20 2012 08:55 AUGcodon wrote:
I am not much of expert when it comes to animal controls. Anyone care to give us more info? Oh man I just realized, it's not even peer reviewed yet. I was looking for the editors to see if they have any big names there. Probably a good idea to wait until it gets peer reviewed.

Someone in this thread said it was, but I saw it wasn't. We need to clear this up.

On September 20 2012 09:09 SnipedSoul wrote:
Isn't it strange that both GMO corn and roundup cause exactly the same problems? Kidney damage, liver damage, and the same kinds of tumors. How much roundup was still in the corn the mice were eating?

I can only assume that the corn was grown by the reseachers, as they're probably aware of the possibility that it already contains Roundup.

However, even if it wasn't the case, the problem remains : how is it then that rats who have only consumed GMOs have a higher aggravated cancer rate than those who have only consumed Roundup...?
Le long pour l'un pour l'autre est court (le mot-à-mot du mot "amour").
LeroyJenkem
Profile Joined January 2012
36 Posts
September 20 2012 00:24 GMT
#48
Guys, have this many of you SERIOUSLY not heard of this stuff yet? These monstanto produces are nothing short of agent orange. Theres info about this stuff all over the net, just do a quick google search. Its nothing but bad news. The US government has made it illegal to grow your own produce on your own property, and now theyre making the public produce toxic.

Population control if you ask me.
MisterFred
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2033 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-20 00:25:45
September 20 2012 00:24 GMT
#49
On September 20 2012 09:14 Heh_ wrote:
@MisterFred: Show me the research. Published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. Otherwise, you're just spouting baseless conspiracy theories. On the subject of "everything is a neurotoxin", did you know caffeine completely fucks insects and spiders up? Somehow we're not adversely affected by it, geez that's a good counter-example I pointed out. If you don't believe me, just google "spider web caffeine".


Then doubt it. Nothing I typed was contentious. The basis for why these pesticides work has been true for decades. The effects of the chemical residue on our health is disputed, but I didn't declare one way or the other on that, just wished I knew.

Neuro-toxin as in: chemicals designed to kill the pests by destroying their nervous system. Harmful to humans in terms of: in large doses some of these will cause paralysis. This generally only happens in farm accidents, but good lord, are you too lazy to google "paralysis from pesticides farmworkers"?

Or google "estrogen-based pesticides". Heck, some of the first page results ARE from peer-reviewed journals.

Common knowledge doesn't need to be sourced.
"The victor? Not the highest scoring, nor the best strategist, nor the best tactitian. The victor was he that was closest to the Tao of FFA." -.Praetor
Heh_
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Singapore2712 Posts
September 20 2012 00:32 GMT
#50
On September 20 2012 09:24 MisterFred wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2012 09:14 Heh_ wrote:
@MisterFred: Show me the research. Published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. Otherwise, you're just spouting baseless conspiracy theories. On the subject of "everything is a neurotoxin", did you know caffeine completely fucks insects and spiders up? Somehow we're not adversely affected by it, geez that's a good counter-example I pointed out. If you don't believe me, just google "spider web caffeine".


Then doubt it. Nothing I typed was contentious. The basis for why these pesticides work has been true for decades. The effects of the chemical residue on our health is disputed, but I didn't declare one way or the other on that, just wished I knew.

Neuro-toxin as in: chemicals designed to kill the pests by destroying their nervous system. Harmful to humans in terms of: in large doses some of these will cause paralysis. This generally only happens in farm accidents, but good lord, are you too lazy to google "paralysis from pesticides farmworkers"?

Or google "estrogen-based pesticides". Heck, some of the first page results ARE from peer-reviewed journals.

Common knowledge doesn't need to be sourced.

Okay sorry, got pissed after reading post after post of conspiracy theories. I looked at a few reviews and some pesticides have harmful effects on humans in high doses, some don't. I just lumped you with those that immediately jump out and say everything is bad because it's harmful (in high doses that most people aren't exposed to).
=Þ
Silidons
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States2813 Posts
September 20 2012 00:33 GMT
#51
you can also die from drinking too much water. sure a lot of shit they put into food isn't healthy for you, and i do believe ALL information should be posted on the box, but i don't think it's more harmful than say drinking alcohol.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon Bonaparte
Kukaracha
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
France1954 Posts
September 20 2012 00:34 GMT
#52
On September 20 2012 09:14 Heh_ wrote:
About animal: When trying to score yes/no (tumor appearances), you need really really large numbers, because these are stochastic events. For example, group A animals have 30% incidence of tumors and group B animals have 50% incidence of tumors. If each group has only 10 animals, then it's statistically not significant because there's too little animals used to see a trend. If there were 100 animals used, then it might be statistically significant. If 1000 were used, then yeah that's a clear trend. In general, the more animals used, the greater the statistical power.

About controls: You ALWAYS need a control. If you treat the rats with pesticide and see 30% tumors, you might think that's a high incidence of tumors. When happens if the same rats were left without pesticide and 29% developed tumors? That means that the pesticide administration increased tumor incidence by 1%, aka a very insignificant amount. It would also be good if you have a positive control, aka a chemical that causes tumors, to know what a positive result is supposed to look like. If these rats now have a 70% tumor incidence rate, then that's a result that's good to know. If the rats have a 32% tumor rate after treating with the cancer-inducing chemical, then this strain of rats aren't good to test on because there isn't much difference at all between your positive and negative controls.

@MisterFred: Show me the research. Published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. Otherwise, you're just spouting baseless conspiracy theories. On the subject of "everything is a neurotoxin", did you know caffeine completely fucks insects and spiders up? Somehow we're not adversely affected by it, geez that's a good counter-example I pointed out. If you don't believe me, just google "spider web caffeine".

About animals : 200 rats were used in the experiment.

About controls : why would you assume that the paper's methodology is poor?

About the use of rats : food is usually tested on rats following the same measures, although with smaller samples and shorter periods of time. If it is not a valid way to test the toxicity of food, then we're all at risk!
Le long pour l'un pour l'autre est court (le mot-à-mot du mot "amour").
MisterFred
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2033 Posts
September 20 2012 00:38 GMT
#53
On September 20 2012 09:32 Heh_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2012 09:24 MisterFred wrote:
On September 20 2012 09:14 Heh_ wrote:
@MisterFred: Show me the research. Published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. Otherwise, you're just spouting baseless conspiracy theories. On the subject of "everything is a neurotoxin", did you know caffeine completely fucks insects and spiders up? Somehow we're not adversely affected by it, geez that's a good counter-example I pointed out. If you don't believe me, just google "spider web caffeine".


Then doubt it. Nothing I typed was contentious. The basis for why these pesticides work has been true for decades. The effects of the chemical residue on our health is disputed, but I didn't declare one way or the other on that, just wished I knew.

Neuro-toxin as in: chemicals designed to kill the pests by destroying their nervous system. Harmful to humans in terms of: in large doses some of these will cause paralysis. This generally only happens in farm accidents, but good lord, are you too lazy to google "paralysis from pesticides farmworkers"?

Or google "estrogen-based pesticides". Heck, some of the first page results ARE from peer-reviewed journals.

Common knowledge doesn't need to be sourced.

Okay sorry, got pissed after reading post after post of conspiracy theories. I looked at a few reviews and some pesticides have harmful effects on humans in high doses, some don't. I just lumped you with those that immediately jump out and say everything is bad because it's harmful (in high doses that most people aren't exposed to).


Heh, I know the feeling.
"The victor? Not the highest scoring, nor the best strategist, nor the best tactitian. The victor was he that was closest to the Tao of FFA." -.Praetor
xeo1
Profile Joined October 2011
United States429 Posts
September 20 2012 00:40 GMT
#54
On September 20 2012 09:00 archonOOid wrote:
Seems like another leftist attack on corporate engineering and wealth.
I've seen GMO at first hand and it's really safe.
The agro-chemical industry isn't like tobacco companies.


are you joking?
Heh_
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Singapore2712 Posts
September 20 2012 00:42 GMT
#55
On September 20 2012 09:34 Kukaracha wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2012 09:14 Heh_ wrote:
About animal: When trying to score yes/no (tumor appearances), you need really really large numbers, because these are stochastic events. For example, group A animals have 30% incidence of tumors and group B animals have 50% incidence of tumors. If each group has only 10 animals, then it's statistically not significant because there's too little animals used to see a trend. If there were 100 animals used, then it might be statistically significant. If 1000 were used, then yeah that's a clear trend. In general, the more animals used, the greater the statistical power.

About controls: You ALWAYS need a control. If you treat the rats with pesticide and see 30% tumors, you might think that's a high incidence of tumors. When happens if the same rats were left without pesticide and 29% developed tumors? That means that the pesticide administration increased tumor incidence by 1%, aka a very insignificant amount. It would also be good if you have a positive control, aka a chemical that causes tumors, to know what a positive result is supposed to look like. If these rats now have a 70% tumor incidence rate, then that's a result that's good to know. If the rats have a 32% tumor rate after treating with the cancer-inducing chemical, then this strain of rats aren't good to test on because there isn't much difference at all between your positive and negative controls.

@MisterFred: Show me the research. Published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. Otherwise, you're just spouting baseless conspiracy theories. On the subject of "everything is a neurotoxin", did you know caffeine completely fucks insects and spiders up? Somehow we're not adversely affected by it, geez that's a good counter-example I pointed out. If you don't believe me, just google "spider web caffeine".

About animals : 200 rats were used in the experiment.

About controls : why would you assume that the paper's methodology is poor?

About the use of rats : food is usually tested on rats following the same measures, although with smaller samples and shorter periods of time. If it is not a valid way to test the toxicity of food, then we're all at risk!

200 is really low. Divided into male and female, 100 each. Then 4 groups, 25 in each group. That's really really little, especially if you want to draw statistical conclusions based on differences of 1-2 animals. If what you say is true that less testing is done on food introduced into the supply chain, then that's a cause for concern.
=Þ
Kukaracha
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
France1954 Posts
September 20 2012 01:02 GMT
#56
And yet, even though this is the most rigorous kind of test about GMOs so far, you trust them blindly? :p
Le long pour l'un pour l'autre est court (le mot-à-mot du mot "amour").
NeonFox
Profile Joined January 2011
2373 Posts
September 20 2012 01:03 GMT
#57
On September 20 2012 09:33 Silidons wrote:
you can also die from drinking too much water. sure a lot of shit they put into food isn't healthy for you, and i do believe ALL information should be posted on the box, but i don't think it's more harmful than say drinking alcohol.


You chose to drink alcohol or not, and it's negative effects are well known. On the other hand you don't know what pesticide was used on the vegetables you buy. Or in the food made with vegetables or fruits you buy.
AUGcodon
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada536 Posts
September 20 2012 01:16 GMT
#58
On September 20 2012 09:14 Heh_ wrote:
@AUGCodon: Okay I just saw your post. If you could link a pdf with the entire article, it would be great. The materials and methods section is really important, and I can't tell much without it. Also did you upload the same figure twice?

Ok problems with the graph: what's on the Y axis? Number of animals? What are the total number of animals? If animals are euthanized (killed humanely) before the end-of-experiment timepoint, how is this represented on this graph? This Y axis is best represented by percentages, not absolute numbers, because it's very easy to hide information (the number of control mice may be half the number of the others). The inset bar graph is even more sketchy. What is it showing?

If I eyeball the data, it really doesn't seem like there's any difference between the controls and the 3 different groups of mice. If your hypothesis is that the 33% treated rats would do much worse than 11%, the trend appears to be reversed. However, the numbers of rats that are affected are really smallso you cannot conclude anything from 1 or 2 less mice with tumors. You need at least like 50 rats for each group (so like 200 rats total) before you can see any trends. The result shown in that figure is definitely not statistically significant, I don't even need to see their statistical method to infer that.

About animal: When trying to score yes/no (tumor appearances), you need really really large numbers, because these are stochastic events. For example, group A animals have 30% incidence of tumors and group B animals have 50% incidence of tumors. If each group has only 10 animals, then it's statistically not significant because there's too little animals used to see a trend. If there were 100 animals used, then it might be statistically significant. If 1000 were used, then yeah that's a clear trend. In general, the more animals used, the greater the statistical power.

About controls: You ALWAYS need a control. If you treat the rats with pesticide and see 30% tumors, you might think that's a high incidence of tumors. When happens if the same rats were left without pesticide and 29% developed tumors? That means that the pesticide administration increased tumor incidence by 1%, aka a very insignificant amount. It would also be good if you have a positive control, aka a chemical that causes tumors, to know what a positive result is supposed to look like. If these rats now have a 70% tumor incidence rate, then that's a result that's good to know. If the rats have a 32% tumor rate after treating with the cancer-inducing chemical, then this strain of rats aren't good to test on because there isn't much difference at all between your positive and negative controls.

@MisterFred: Show me the research. Published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. Otherwise, you're just spouting baseless conspiracy theories. On the subject of "everything is a neurotoxin", did you know caffeine completely fucks insects and spiders up? Somehow we're not adversely affected by it, geez that's a good counter-example I pointed out. If you don't believe me, just google "spider web caffeine".


Check your PM
2809-8732-2116/ Fighting/ Mienfoo, Tyrogue, Sawk
TMStarcraft
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia686 Posts
September 20 2012 01:21 GMT
#59
I hope OP updates with some of the criticisms leveled against the paper from the BBC article. Non-statistically significant sample sizes, use of a rat species prone to developing tumours, emotive presentation of results etc all strike me as extremely poor form for a scientific paper.
||
SnipedSoul
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada2158 Posts
September 20 2012 01:26 GMT
#60
On September 20 2012 10:21 TMStarcraft wrote:
I hope OP updates with some of the criticisms leveled against the paper from the BBC article. Non-statistically significant sample sizes, use of a rat species prone to developing tumours, emotive presentation of results etc all strike me as extremely poor form for a scientific paper.


Same, scientific publications are supposed to be neutral.
Kukaracha
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
France1954 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-20 01:32:01
September 20 2012 01:28 GMT
#61
On September 20 2012 10:21 TMStarcraft wrote:
I hope OP updates with some of the criticisms leveled against the paper from the BBC article. Non-statistically significant sample sizes, use of a rat species prone to developing tumours, emotive presentation of results etc all strike me as extremely poor form for a scientific paper.

I'll wait for peer review. It would be just as bad to put random criticism from random articles. It's a heated subject with powerful lobbies. If even scientist are sometimes paid to defend bullshit, caution is needed.

Wait a few days and we will get reactions from both sides.

Edit : as an example, if the samples are not significant, then it means most samples from the majority of food studies are not significant; if this species of rats is a bad choice, then how come it is used in so many tests supposed to determine what is healthy enough for our plate; when is a picture considered an "emotive" representation of results; etc.

Leave science to science.
Le long pour l'un pour l'autre est court (le mot-à-mot du mot "amour").
heroyi
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1064 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-20 01:32:27
September 20 2012 01:30 GMT
#62
you guys realize a lot of the foods we consume are GM afflicted in some way or form?
Tomato is up there. Normal ones are not as big or as ripe as you see in the grocery stores and don't last as long as the GM ones.
maize corn is the funniest one of all. Real corn does NOT look like that at all what you see in stores (i.e real corns have outside hard, protective shell). They have gone through selective breeding...

edit:
should probably wait for the review myself. The paper seems really flawed...I mean 200 rats, prone to tumors... Yea not buying it until then.
wat wat in my pants
emythrel
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United Kingdom2599 Posts
September 20 2012 01:34 GMT
#63
On September 20 2012 08:03 Sufficiency wrote:
Reserving this until I have read the actual paper, but from the OP it seems fishy already.

EDIT: looks to me from Figure 1's top left panel that the herbicide Round-up actually reduces mortality! Oh the humanity!

Yes I was being sarcastic. But really, I don't see any convincing evidence that the GM corn actually caused higher mortality in rats.


Rats, a species of being extremely prone to tumors and cancer got said diseases and died. I've had 5 rats as pets in my life, all died from tumors..... perhaps it was the food I was giving them ;p
When there is nothing left to lose but your dignity, it is already gone.
bmore_bulldog
Profile Joined April 2012
18 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-20 01:47:59
September 20 2012 01:41 GMT
#64
Having skimmed the figures, I'm a bit confused. They refer to a "control" group, but all I can see data for are three groups: roundup alone, roundup + GMO maize, or GMO maize alone.

If I'm interpreting that correctly, that means the study is not powered to study the effects of GMO maize. It can only study how GMO maize interacts with roundup, above and beyond any independent effects. And it's just sloppy not to have a no treat group. It's so sloppy, in fact, that I'm hoping someone will correct me and say I've misinterpreted the paper. But if they did have a control group, why is it not included in the figures?

Also, quick skim at their acknowledgments shows funding by at least two anti-GMO interest groups. I'm as skeptical of this publication as I would be of a study by Pfizer that sounded too good to be true.

Edit: I am indeed mistaken. I see they took their 100 mice and divided them into 10 groups. It appears they're showing and analyzing subsets. But they did have a no roundup, no GMO maize control. The analysis is done in an odd way. Never seen that particular statistical method, and it's not particularly well explained. But for those curious, there do only appear to be 10 mice per group.
ZeaL.
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States5955 Posts
September 20 2012 01:45 GMT
#65
On September 20 2012 10:41 bmore_bulldog wrote:
Having skimmed the figures, I'm a bit confused. They refer to a "control" group, but all I can see data for are three groups: roundup alone, roundup + GMO maize, or GMO maize alone.

If I'm interpreting that correctly, that means the study is not powered to study the effects of GMO maize. It can only study how GMO maize interacts with roundup, above and beyond any independent effects. And it's just sloppy not to have a no treat group. It's so sloppy, in fact, that I'm hoping someone will correct me and say I've misinterpreted the paper. But if they did have a control group, why is it not included in the figures?

Also, quick skim at their acknowledgments shows funding by at least two anti-GMO interest groups. I'm as skeptical of this publication as I would be of a study by Pfizer that sounded too good to be true.


They didn't publish their control data though they say they had one.

Honestly the big issue is that their groups had an n=10. No wonder there aren't any p-values in the paper..
bmore_bulldog
Profile Joined April 2012
18 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-20 01:50:20
September 20 2012 01:50 GMT
#66
On September 20 2012 10:45 ZeaL. wrote:

They didn't publish their control data though they say they had one.

Honestly the big issue is that their groups had an n=10. No wonder there aren't any p-values in the paper..


Yup, as you can see from my edit above, I came to the same conclusion right before you posted. And another reason they don't have any p-values is because they are using some VERY exotic statistical techniques. Never come across that particular method. And not sure why a simpler technique wouldn't do.
heroyi
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1064 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-20 01:53:41
September 20 2012 01:52 GMT
#67
On September 20 2012 10:50 bmore_bulldog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2012 10:45 ZeaL. wrote:

They didn't publish their control data though they say they had one.

Honestly the big issue is that their groups had an n=10. No wonder there aren't any p-values in the paper..


Yup, as you can see from my edit above, I came to the same conclusion right before you posted. And another reason they don't have any p-values is because they are using some VERY exotic statistical techniques. Never come across that particular method. And not sure why a simpler technique wouldn't do.

"Researchers studied 10 groups, each containing 10 male and 10 female rats, over their normal lifetime - two years."

Hell? This is so shitty... Such a small size...this is almost laughable. This already breaks the cardinal rule of statistics...
wat wat in my pants
AUGcodon
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada536 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-20 01:54:49
September 20 2012 01:53 GMT
#68
Wait how are they not publishing the negative control? (I am assuming you all have access to the original paper.) The dotted line in Figure 1 and Figure 2 is the rats that ate the non-GMO form of the maize.

So guessing from what Heh said before, I guess the average number of rats used for this type of study is 1000?
2809-8732-2116/ Fighting/ Mienfoo, Tyrogue, Sawk
Silidons
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States2813 Posts
September 20 2012 01:55 GMT
#69
On September 20 2012 10:26 SnipedSoul wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2012 10:21 TMStarcraft wrote:
I hope OP updates with some of the criticisms leveled against the paper from the BBC article. Non-statistically significant sample sizes, use of a rat species prone to developing tumours, emotive presentation of results etc all strike me as extremely poor form for a scientific paper.


Same, scientific publications are supposed to be neutral.

did they release who funded it?
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon Bonaparte
JackReacher
Profile Joined September 2012
United States197 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-20 02:01:36
September 20 2012 01:59 GMT
#70
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Monsanto_and_the_Roundup_Ready_Controversy

Just if anyone wanted to do some background reading. But you all are missing a HUGE, GAPING point, and the reason they don't do a control; Roundup is an herbicide; plants absorb it and die. It's not a pesticide that is sprayed on and washed off. It is sprayed everywhere for weed control, and while the weeds die, the Roundup Ready Maize simply absorbs the herbicide. This means that the GMO RR-Maize, by definition, CONTAINS ROUNDUP. You can't simply wash it off.

Hence, Roundup alone would technically be the "control", as they are trying to see just how much Roundup is in the RR Maize and if those levels are really as safe as originally believed.
Aerisky
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States12129 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-20 02:02:04
September 20 2012 02:00 GMT
#71
Good god. Roundup has always had a rightfully terrible rep, and now this :O

Peer-reviewed, legitimate paper...looks serious.

Edit: wait....that's definitely a very very small sample size though.. -_-
Jim while Johnny had had had had had had had; had had had had the better effect on the teacher.
AUGcodon
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada536 Posts
September 20 2012 02:03 GMT
#72
Kukaracha I think you need to put up a point in the OP mentioning that they grow their own maize. they don't take it from a random farmers field. This is why I hate media reporting on scientific articles, they never bother mentioning the details. The people who do these studies over 2 years are not dumb. Do you think they would leave off a control that important? Do you not think the article reviewer will not notice something like that. lol
2809-8732-2116/ Fighting/ Mienfoo, Tyrogue, Sawk
Klogon
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
MURICA15980 Posts
September 20 2012 02:05 GMT
#73
For things like this, its best to trust the thousands of science professionals who actually know what they are talking about to be the whistle blower. Just being a google-master will not give you any clear answers for something so complicated.
JackReacher
Profile Joined September 2012
United States197 Posts
September 20 2012 02:07 GMT
#74
On September 20 2012 11:03 AUGcodon wrote:
Kukaracha I think you need to put up a point in the OP mentioning that they grow their own maize. they don't take it from a random farmers field. This is why I hate media reporting on scientific articles, they never bother mentioning the details. The people who do these studies over 2 years are not dumb. Do you think they would leave off a control that important? Do you not think the article reviewer will not notice something like that. lol

The GM Maize in question is patented by Monsanto; they can't simply grow it themselves, they would have to ask for a source of the genetically-modified strain to do a study. Do you think Monsanto would just give it to them, considering the study shows things they would rather were NEVER looked into?
bmore_bulldog
Profile Joined April 2012
18 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-20 02:08:44
September 20 2012 02:08 GMT
#75
On September 20 2012 10:53 AUGcodon wrote:
Wait how are they not publishing the negative control? (I am assuming you all have access to the original paper.) The dotted line in Figure 1 and Figure 2 is the rats that ate the non-GMO form of the maize.

So guessing from what Heh said before, I guess the average number of rats used for this type of study is 1000?


Thanks for that, helps clarify. The control group are the vertical lines. Really odd way to represent it. So the dashed bars are the SEM of the control lifespan. But when did the first mouse in the control group die? I don't believe they say. Why plot SEM for control and show entire survival curve for experimental? My guess would be that the effect looks much less profound if the control group is plotted the exact same way as the experimental groups.

10 mice/group may or may not be an appropriate size, depending on how powerful the effect is. So you need to run some statistical tests to make sure you have enough mice. The test they chose is really complex and not well described at all, nor do they really say why they needed to do this test and not a simpler one.

Convoluted presentation, unnecessary complexity, funded by GMO interest groups...all signs point to bullshit.
AUGcodon
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada536 Posts
September 20 2012 02:10 GMT
#76
On September 20 2012 11:07 JackReacher wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2012 11:03 AUGcodon wrote:
Kukaracha I think you need to put up a point in the OP mentioning that they grow their own maize. they don't take it from a random farmers field. This is why I hate media reporting on scientific articles, they never bother mentioning the details. The people who do these studies over 2 years are not dumb. Do you think they would leave off a control that important? Do you not think the article reviewer will not notice something like that. lol

The GM Maize in question is patented by Monsanto; they can't simply grow it themselves, they would have to ask for a source of the genetically-modified strain to do a study. Do you think Monsanto would just give it to them, considering the study shows things they would rather were NEVER looked into?


From the paper itself
Plants, Diets, and Chemicals
The varieties of maize used in this study were the R-tolerant NK603 (Monsanto
Corp., USA), and its nearest isogenic non-transgenic control. These two types of
maize were grown under similar normal conditions, in the same location, spaced
at a sufficient distance to avoid cross-contamination. The genetic nature, as well
as the purity of the GM seeds and harvested material, was confirmed by qPCR analysis
of DNA samples. One field of NK603 was treated with R at 3 L ha1 (Weather-
MAX, 540 g/L of glyphosate, EPA Reg. 524-537), and another field of NK603 was not
treated with R. Corns were harvested when the moisture content was less than 30%
and were dried at a temperature below 30 C. From these three cultivations of maize, laboratory rat chow was made based on the standard diet A04 (Safe, France).
The dry rat feed was made to contain 11, 22 or 33% of GM maize, cultivated either
with or without R, or 33% of the non-transgenic control line. The concentrations of
the transgene were confirmed in the three doses of each diet by qPCR. All feed formulations
consisted in balanced diets, chemically measured as substantially equivalent
except for the transgene, with no contaminating pesticides over standard
limits. All secondary metabolites cannot be known and measured in the composition.
However we have measured isoflavones and phenolic acids including ferulic
acid by standard HPLC-UV. All reagents used were of analytical grade. The herbicide
diluted in the drinking water was the commercial formulation of R (GT Plus, 450 g/L
of glyphosate, approval 2020448, Monsanto, Belgium). Herbicides levels were assessed
by glyphosate measurements in the different dilutions by mass
spectrometry.
2809-8732-2116/ Fighting/ Mienfoo, Tyrogue, Sawk
JackReacher
Profile Joined September 2012
United States197 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-20 02:15:08
September 20 2012 02:13 GMT
#77
For anyone with knowledge of biotech, genetic engineering, etc., here is a detailed description of exactly which genes were modified, for what purpose, and the exact technique used (from the Center for Environmental Risk Assessment's Genetically Modified Crop Database).

http://cera-gmc.org/index.php?action=gm_crop_database&mode=ShowProd&data=NK603

@ Above poster, yea, I never really considered that they aren't using the NK603 Maize for commercial purposes, so they are free to do it. But nonetheless, I think it's worth looking at the details of the GM crop (linked above).
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-20 02:49:48
September 20 2012 02:20 GMT
#78
Sorry I forgot no sarcasm.
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
JackReacher
Profile Joined September 2012
United States197 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-20 02:23:13
September 20 2012 02:22 GMT
#79
On September 20 2012 11:20 jdseemoreglass wrote:
OMG it's a study which stokes fears which I already held against things that are strange and confusing to me like science and genetic modification and pesticides, they all sound so scary and dangerous and now these people did a study confirming all of my worst fears, that my children are going to grow up with a third arm growing from their head because of these evil and greedy corporations who I also fear and distrust. Thank god the internet exists to inform me of these dangers so that I feel conviction in my heart and not some vague and unjustified suspicion, and thank god we have organic farm growers who I can buy pea sized apples from with worms in them for double the price.

I'm as skeptical about the dangers as you are, but you don't have to be ignorant or closed-minded; after reading the paper, a few other sources, and what people have said here, I can't argue with the science. My opinion has changed, on this particular subject.
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6233 Posts
September 20 2012 02:25 GMT
#80
They publish none of their controls, and there are like 10 rats in each group. Show us how the apparently normal rats fared, and then we'll talk. Oh, but the study's power is negligible anyway, so I guess it doesn't even matter.

It's pretty depressing how easy it is to stir people up into a frothing anti-GM histeria.
AUGcodon
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada536 Posts
September 20 2012 02:30 GMT
#81
My biggest issue with the paper is the amount of GMO-crop feeded does not appear to correlate with tumor or death rate. Look back at the tumor graph I posted on the first page, in some cases the number of tumors is greater at 22% GMO feed than 33% GMO feed.

This is their explanation for it
Our data show that, as is often the case for hormonal diseases,
most observed effects in this study were not proportional to the
dose of the treatment (GM maize with and without R application;
R alone), non-monotonic and with a threshold effect (Vandenberg
et al., 2012). Similar degrees of pathological symptoms were noticed
in this study to occur from the lowest to the highest doses
suggesting a threshold effect. This corresponds to levels likely to
arise from consumption or environmental exposure, such as either
11% GM maize in food, or 50 ng/L of glyphosate in R-formulation as
can be found in some contaminated drinking tap waters, and
which fall within authorized limits.


It's not my field so I can't even tell how valid that is.
2809-8732-2116/ Fighting/ Mienfoo, Tyrogue, Sawk
Aerisky
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States12129 Posts
September 20 2012 02:30 GMT
#82
On September 20 2012 11:05 Klogon wrote:
For things like this, its best to trust the thousands of science professionals who actually know what they are talking about to be the whistle blower. Just being a google-master will not give you any clear answers for something so complicated.

Well put. I think the best thing to do here is to delay our judgment and wait for a more information on this matter, if there is any to come.

This has no bearing on the results, but in general Monsanto has an extremely, extremely poor reputation, especially because of Roundup. The company is responsible for some of the most flagrant environmental contamination as a result their products, which oftentimes have appallingly negative effects on ecosystems :/
Jim while Johnny had had had had had had had; had had had had the better effect on the teacher.
JackReacher
Profile Joined September 2012
United States197 Posts
September 20 2012 02:32 GMT
#83
I struggled to understand how Roundup, and NK603 Maize NEVER exposed to Roundup, could possibly produce similar effects in similar levels. This line struck me as a possible explanation:

"The researchers hypothesize that the reason why NK603 GM maize, NK603 sprayed with Roundup, and Roundup on its own, all produced very similar negative health outcomes, is that both the GM maize and the weedkiller Roundup "may cause hormonal disturbances in the same biochemical and physiological pathway."

This is supported by the CERA's GM Crop Database entry on NK603, which describes the other changes to the plant caused by the inserted genes, such as increased production of a number of amino acids and other organic compounds.
GreenManalishi
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada834 Posts
September 20 2012 02:35 GMT
#84
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/19/us-gmcrops-safety-idUSBRE88I0L020120919

The study had too small a sample size and Seralini has made his career off of writing anti-GM literature. Profoundly flawed study on a subject where there have already been 100s of studies performed. No blind testing, no description of the methodology in the controls, and non conclusive results.

Sounds like a nice piece of anti-GM propaganda with no real scientific merit.
AUGcodon
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada536 Posts
September 20 2012 02:36 GMT
#85
Ohhhhhh, that is an pretty interesting thought. I hope they do a follow-up study on the biochemistry pathway even though that is probably a much harder thing to characterize.
2809-8732-2116/ Fighting/ Mienfoo, Tyrogue, Sawk
Kukaracha
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
France1954 Posts
September 20 2012 02:37 GMT
#86
If anyone thinks something should be added to the OP, PM me and I'll do that tomorrow.

I will however not post more newspaper articles nor random opinions. I will post sourced facts, however.
Note that the quoted article in the OP is there for those who want an oversight of the problem and comes from an anti-gmo website, any further reading should be done in the paper itself.
Le long pour l'un pour l'autre est court (le mot-à-mot du mot "amour").
Heh_
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Singapore2712 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-20 02:42:07
September 20 2012 02:41 GMT
#87
Okay, so I read the whole paper, courtesy of AUGcodon (start, if you know what I mean). I'll present my interpretation of the paper as unbiased as I can possibly get:

Figures:
Figure 1:
They looked at the lifespan of the mice and the causes of death. It’s pretty similar across the board. The authors nitpicked at a few cases where the Roundup-treated mice developed some problems relative to control, but it’s not noteworthy at all. When you’re looking at populations, 1 or 2 outliers hardly matter; the overall trend matters more. Problem is that their population size is hilariously small (10). Females got more mammary tumors… no shit Sherlock.

Figure 2:
They looked at tumor sizes. The females had tumors that were big.. really big that it caused obvious problems. Untreated controls appear to have smaller tumors, but by a small margin except for 1 group. No statistics done though.. no way to get anything with such a small sample size so we don’t even know if that difference is statistically significant.

Figure 3:
Gross pictures of tumors, tumors everywhere. While they claim that this is the trend observed, it could also have been a deliberate selection of pictures in order to justify the trend they want to observe. They did do some quantification in Table 2 and it does indeed seem like the Roundup-treated rats have more tumors though. More elaboration below.

Figure 4:
A pretty useless picture, trying to show how bad the cancer can get. It really contributes nothing to the rest of the article, no point commenting more.

Figure 5:
They claim to show that the physiological parameters are similar between groups. Why do I use the phrase “claim to”? Because their graphs make totally no sense. They don’t show which groups are getting compared, nor any biologically relevant numbers, just some really weird coefficients. Figure 5B is a bigger offender; this time they look at individual parameters and can’t even label the Y axis in an easily-understood manner. All I can decipher is that controls are different from treated rats. The authors claimed that they were statistically significant, but I shall not go into a long tangent about statistical manipulation, because this figure reeks of that. Also, the first time I’m seeing error bars in this paper. Too bad it has no meaning at all..

Others:
Problems with methods:
The strain of rat used is particularly susceptible to mammary tumors, which is what the researchers found. One source is found here (http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/content/27/5/1037.abstract). They did find many other tumors, but again no statistics. I have a concern that they could have been biased when examining the rats (more observant for tumors in the strains that they want them to appear in), but let’s hope that they were unbiased, or at least took some steps to make the examination unbiased.

Problems with statistics:
Each group has only 10 animals (100 of each gender, divided into 10 groups). That’s way too little for statistical analysis. You need a lot more to establish any statistical significance from the results. Anyway, from the graphs, there’s no significance at all.

In conclusion:
Basically, the paper states that the survival of the treated and control rats are similar, although the treated rats have a non-statistically significant increased tumor incidence. The biggest flaw of this paper is really the number of rats per group; 10 is wayyy to little. 50 would be good, 100 would make for convincing statistics. The last figure was really digging deep for something to comment on, but it’s really a waste of space. All in all, they made a point, but they did not prove it beyond reasonable doubt.

Unrelated:
You’re not supposed to house rats in cages alone. They’re supposed to be socially housed, according to IACUC (Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee) guidelines.
=Þ
Aerisky
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States12129 Posts
September 20 2012 04:26 GMT
#88
Thanks Heh, nice analysis and I can vouch for him as a student who does research ^^

You really went through that pretty well yo! Definitely quite a fishy paper...random news sites, let alone other research groups are already questioning it, and seriously, it will most likely get ripped apart...
Jim while Johnny had had had had had had had; had had had had the better effect on the teacher.
Mstring
Profile Joined September 2011
Australia510 Posts
September 20 2012 04:32 GMT
#89
Common sense says don't spray chemicals on your food.
Aerisky
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States12129 Posts
September 20 2012 04:35 GMT
#90
Sure, but usually you will have little to no control over whether the food you buy in the supermarket has had chemicals sprayed. Obviously the preferable thing to do is have an integrated pest management system, but oftentimes this is difficult to implement and many farmers just stick with using pesticides or herbicides. Supposedly said substances are used in safe amounts and are regulated, so news/reports like these are worrisome for people.
Jim while Johnny had had had had had had had; had had had had the better effect on the teacher.
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
September 20 2012 04:38 GMT
#91
On September 20 2012 08:20 sevencck wrote:
This is published in a decent journal, I can access the journal article because I'm at a university. This passed peer review, it must have some merit.


You obviously haven't read enough paper.
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
September 20 2012 04:49 GMT
#92
On September 20 2012 11:35 GreenManalishi wrote:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/19/us-gmcrops-safety-idUSBRE88I0L020120919

The study had too small a sample size and Seralini has made his career off of writing anti-GM literature. Profoundly flawed study on a subject where there have already been 100s of studies performed. No blind testing, no description of the methodology in the controls, and non conclusive results.

Sounds like a nice piece of anti-GM propaganda with no real scientific merit.

+ Heh_'s analysis is enough for me to close this thread.

I'm happy for a new thread to be made on the subject, but the OP has to be more balanced than it is currently.
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