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Keep this civil, guys |
On May 04 2012 18:48 Jebotres wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:39 BlazeFury01 wrote:On May 04 2012 18:35 Jebotres wrote:On May 04 2012 18:27 BlazeFury01 wrote:On May 04 2012 18:18 Stiluz wrote:Congratulations lynch mob on TL, you just screwed over yet another person from our community. First Orb, now Destiny. Who's next on the list, IdrA? He seems pretty controversial and BM  Or maybe Day9? People like to talk about how great the SC2 community is, but the lynch mob proves them at our community is still as immature and prone to crap like any other. Your completely missing the point. Both Orb and Destiny were "lynched" because of their actions not because their some sort of angels that did absolutely nothing. The community didn't "screw them over", it was the players lack of self control which "screwed themselves" from the community. Right, so how do you explain the fact that there are other examples of, if judged by the same standards, totally unnaceptable behavior by other pros that went largely ''unpunished'' by the community? The commnuity possesses the ability to severely damage peoples careers and income, it is an incredibily frightening thing to see that power used very inconsistently. And what if it was used on a consistent basis? Are players to live in fear of us, the fans? Are they supposed to sweat at night worrying if a white knight saw their ladder rage and got offended by one of the words used, and decided to email sponsors? Personally, I believe it's their choice to do/say whatever they feel. That said, they should already be aware of the consequences before doing so. Also, who said that it was a white knight who was offended by something said on stream, and not individual players who the words were directed against that emailed the sponsers? How can they be aware of the consequences? The punishment laid out is based on the whims of a community that has so far not displayed any sign of consistency. One would have to leverage his standing in the community vs the severity of the offending statements made to approximate whether any punishment would be given. Idra, for example, is so popular that he may literally wish death upon people and be just fine. Someone like Destiny who polarizes the community and is on average less liked, cannot get away with arguably less offensive statements. And to answer your question, its just an example, there are many scenarios, but I was generally referring to the fact that threads are created and causes are rallied, it doesent stop at a personal email, clearly.
The same community that got angry at another racial slur?
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I'm also curious how, if this continues, this will affect people who have fun while streaming. Are they always going to have this sort of fear hanging about them, that if they say a naughty word, the community might immediately lynch them? I remember a video of Destiny, Cella, and a few others playing and Cella constantly saying, "I love you man, I gay love you man, love you gay-wise" or something to that end. Should he be worried about getting that call that he's fired? What about Catz? I should say, I fucking love Catz, I'm not trying to get him lynched, but he dicks around and swears on his stream all the time, he says tons of naughty words. Should he be gone?
The question is: what kind of community do we want? I would gladly sacrifice seeing eSports on TV if it meant I could watch my favorite and get that feeling I got when I was a kid hanging out and watching a friend play games at his house.
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On May 04 2012 18:44 adrenaLinG wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:33 ReturnStroke wrote:On May 04 2012 18:29 adrenaLinG wrote:On May 04 2012 18:25 ReturnStroke wrote:On May 04 2012 18:22 adrenaLinG wrote:
If you are using racist language, you are a racist. You can be donating millions of dollars to Latino charities but if you're going around calling people "spics" you are still a racist, end of story. Whether you like it or not, you are using language that offends a lot of people even if you don't find it offensive, or if destiny's white knights don't find it offensive. Destiny's viewers of course hold themselves to high internet standards here. Especially, as I have already mentioned, they are white straight male nerds sitting alone at home on the computer and totally beyond language being offensive and racist. What's the big deal anyway? rac·ist noun 1. a person who believes in racism, the doctrine that a certain human race is superior to any or all others. Saying it is irrelevant to being a racist unless you believe in it. End of story. Probably 95% (depending on your sample) of the people who say racist words aren't really racist. Still mean and insensitive for sure, though. nig·ger [nig-er] noun 1. Slang: Extremely Disparaging and Offensive . a. a black person. See if I call people niggers and they aren't black, I can't be racist because I'm just using it incorrectly! Not racist! You missed my point. You can be racist even if you never say the word. That's my point entirely. The word doesn't mean it one way or the other, it's irrelevant. The word is racist in it's meaning, but saying it doesn't mean you're racist if you don't actually believe one race is superior to another. That's the dictionary definition. There isn't really any debate to be had. Nigger is a terrible word, but saying it doesn't mean you believe one race is superior to another. It just means you said nigger. Yes, and have you tried quoting the dictionary in any real academic setting? You don't need to believe one race is superior to another to be a racist . You just need to be viewed as a racist to be a racist. If you had to straight up prove that every racist had to explicitly "believe one race is superior to another to be a racist" you wouldn't have hate crimes and literally no one outside of people like Adolf Hitler would be considered racist. Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:33 saint_d wrote:On May 04 2012 18:22 adrenaLinG wrote:
If you are using racist language, you are a racist. You can be donating millions of dollars to Latino charities but if you're going around calling people "spics" you are still a racist, end of story. Whether you like it or not, you are using language that offends a lot of people even if you don't find it offensive, or if destiny's white knights don't find it offensive. Destiny's viewers of course hold themselves to high internet standards here. Especially, as I have already mentioned, they are white straight male nerds sitting alone at home on the computer and totally beyond language being offensive and racist. What's the big deal anyway? If you don't see the racial prejudice in your own logically flawed post I can see why shit like this happens. The real problem is there are far too many people on the internet with far too little to do. They get angry over this or that and seek out ways to lash out. If you are legitimately offended by anything said by someone over the internet in any non official capacity may I suggest you take a deep look inward and re-evaluate what you are doing with your time. You don't like what destiny says? Don't watch his stream, don't like him being on a team? Email his TEAM about it. As far as I'm concerned destiny isn't a progamer, he is a guy who plays on his computer a lot and has people interested in what he says. He isn't in your house, he hasn't found a way to force himself on you. You chose to watch his stream for some reason or another, don't like what you see. Move on. If he is so bad he'll fade away, he isn't amazing at the game he doesn't win anything of consequence. If you feel real strongly just email Quantic and let them know the guy is a dick and move on. You wouldn't say a fucking thing to him in person and you have to go as far behind his back on the internet as possible. His life isn't your business move on. Sigh.. angry people on the internet, arguing about things like racist language! Don't they have anything better to do? Why can't they just stop complaining and send letters to the editor!
Then this word is fairly meaningless. We would need a word for someone who DOES actually believe one race is superior to another. You are putting them on equal ground, whether they believe it or not. I think if you appear a racist, you might as well be a racist, in a practical sense, but you still aren't a racist. It's just grammar. You're discussing social issues, which is fine, it's just off-topic when in a grammar conversation. If you have a problem with an established definition, take it up with your dictionary of choice, I don't have any say in it.
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I now see why the fighting game community hates the whole "eeeeeee-sports" scene. I don't really see this affecting destiny too much since he makes all of his money streaming anyway. He's a rockstar....the Howard Stern of SC2. It's currently 3am PST (6am his time) and he currently has 1722 even w/out being listed on TL. It won't take too long for the rest of his following to find him.
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On May 04 2012 18:46 TheDraken wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:29 Incognoto wrote:I can't believe this. I've just lost a huge amount of faith in the community. For the record, I don't have anything against TL moderation. It's their site and they do what they want. I didn't like Destiny's ban, however I don't feel it wasn't justified (read the 10 commandments thing). This is TL's site, if they've had the success they've had up until now it's for a reason. As to what I think about the language, read here. It's beating a dead horse so you can skip it if you want. + Show Spoiler +For the record, I have absolutely no problem with Destiny's racial slurs. At the beginning, when he started using them, I felt that it was too much and I was put off by it. However, Destiny explained his arguments about the use of his language ( here is a youtube video of Destiny having a discussion about this). I then started not minding, because Destiny's arguments made sense. I advise anyone who has a problem with Destiny's language to watch the video. If they're going to have such strong feelings about such a matter than they owe it to everyone to at least listen to a counter-argument. Not doing so is just fucking stale balderdash. Again, it shocks and appalls me that anyone would go so far just to hurt a player who hasn't done anything other than use "offensive" words. It's just incredibly stupid. Let's imagine that we had a homosexual SC2 pro player. Let's just imagine this. Anyone can be incredibly offensive to this player and personally attack him without using a single offensive word. I've put an example in spoilers just to express my point: + Show Spoiler +you little piece of dirt. you're a dog that's what you are, you and whoever you're with. going about, spreading diseases with your strangeness, it's un-natural, it's disgusting, that's all you are. i sincerely hope you and your kind die painful deaths from HIV, the less of you there are the better See what I did there? Not a single swear word was even used yet I said something much more offensive than Destiny has ever said on stream. Now let's take this example: http://i.imgur.com/y8F8n.jpgImagine if instead, it had said "the absolute epitome of being a skill-less fucking fucking idiot, fuck off you dog" If that's what had been said there would have been none of this pointless drama, even though both of expressions mean the same thing. The one thing that annoys me is that no one is going to really change their mind of the issue, yet they're going to refuse to at least hear the other side of the argument. I don't want people to change their minds, I want people to agree to disagree. I'm pretty sure that no one who's faced Destiny on the ladder has gone off and killed themselves or broke down to tears after Destiny flamed them. I dislike Cruncher, that doesn't mean I go out and insult him every single turn I get. That doesn't mean I jump on an occasion I get to email his sponsor and taint his reputation. I was pissed off when he eliminated Idra and Mondragon with cheesy builds, I didn't' muck the forums because I was butt-hurt. I don't go on his stream and insult him. People who have that kind of behavior are basically taking a nice colorful shit on what esports represent. I'm glad TL moderates them. Furthermore, the community isn't here to police players or go on witch hunts. If a player is doing something that could be considered distasteful, the best thing to do is to just email the team (in private, with a calm and reasonable email). The absolute worst thing to do is post about and complain about publicly so that all the hateful idiots can rally around and muck up the forums for reasons that are iffy at best. If warden had a problem with Destiny he should have taken it up to Destiny or Quantic, not start this concentration of idiocy. Immature, that's what it was. Worst part is that I've learned a huge amount of stuff from Destiny, both about Zerg and other topics, yet I've never even heard of warden before this incident. I wonder who actually contributed more to the community? And this is how he's thanked. The worst part is that they didn't even harm Destiny as much as they hoped, but they nearly dealt huge, hurtful blows to Quantic (and all of the good players on Quantic's team). It's appalling. Appalling. I can't repeat this word enough because that's what this situation is. I expected something more intelligent from the community but apparently there's still this hateful part of it that does a lot of damage for almost no good, except provoking this dumb drama. Idra's rivalries are good drama, they interest people. This is fucking retarded. My respect for Destiny sky-rocketed when he left the team because it would be best for everyone. I'll continue to support him more than ever now. But the community just took a huge nose-dive in my esteem. Edit: Now I feel bad for having posted this because no one is even going to read it, preferring to justify their shitty actions with one-liners about how good they are for the community. couldn't agree with this more. this. so hard.
Exactly.
This "emailing the sponsors" thing is like if you were to go to the team house where all the players lived, demand that Destiny be thrown out of the team, then try to set fire to the house.
And then Destiny just walks out of the door, while the rest of the team has to watch their house burn.
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The SC2 community, and furthermore, the internet as a whole has hit a new low. This guy just left his job and was branded a low-life for saying some words out of rage.
I've said some crap before that wasnt appropriate, Im sure that most of you have. It wasnt a public broadcast, his stream did say that there was mature language, unfortuantely an immature person was watching and blew this way out of proportion.
I wasnt a fan of the guy before, but I think I might be now. My faith in the SC2 community and even the mods on this site has sunk to a new low though. People should really think twice before they go around getting offended by everything that happens on the internet.
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Vatican City State334 Posts
It's interesting those disagreeing with this keep implying Razer don't have any thoughts of their own and merely bow to the baying mob, execution style. Destiny did have many chances to defend himself in the previous thread, but his defense was far from convincing. I'm sure if he was asked in private to make an apology or justify it in any way he'd respond with a similar line. In the end, there's not much you can do to reason with someone saying he's intent to go down in flames shouting obscenities, Destiny is currently unemployable.
There's plenty of reasons for Razer to do what they did which make financial sense, for them and also for Quantic's sake. You should also consider that Razer sponsors Korean teams, a Korean reader could easily take the screenshot and post it on playXP where I imagine it wouldn't go down well. Destiny practically shat in his own bed.
+1 to Razer.
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 This is messed up..
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Sad. Wonder what all those white knights have ever done in their lives to make the world a better place. If getting a guy fired who uses foul language on his stream is a priority for you there's not much hope. The only thing you achieved there is hurting Quantic. Appalling. You could have just, I don't know, not watch his stream?
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On May 04 2012 18:50 ReturnStroke wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:44 adrenaLinG wrote:On May 04 2012 18:33 ReturnStroke wrote:On May 04 2012 18:29 adrenaLinG wrote:On May 04 2012 18:25 ReturnStroke wrote:On May 04 2012 18:22 adrenaLinG wrote:
If you are using racist language, you are a racist. You can be donating millions of dollars to Latino charities but if you're going around calling people "spics" you are still a racist, end of story. Whether you like it or not, you are using language that offends a lot of people even if you don't find it offensive, or if destiny's white knights don't find it offensive. Destiny's viewers of course hold themselves to high internet standards here. Especially, as I have already mentioned, they are white straight male nerds sitting alone at home on the computer and totally beyond language being offensive and racist. What's the big deal anyway? rac·ist noun 1. a person who believes in racism, the doctrine that a certain human race is superior to any or all others. Saying it is irrelevant to being a racist unless you believe in it. End of story. Probably 95% (depending on your sample) of the people who say racist words aren't really racist. Still mean and insensitive for sure, though. nig·ger [nig-er] noun 1. Slang: Extremely Disparaging and Offensive . a. a black person. See if I call people niggers and they aren't black, I can't be racist because I'm just using it incorrectly! Not racist! You missed my point. You can be racist even if you never say the word. That's my point entirely. The word doesn't mean it one way or the other, it's irrelevant. The word is racist in it's meaning, but saying it doesn't mean you're racist if you don't actually believe one race is superior to another. That's the dictionary definition. There isn't really any debate to be had. Nigger is a terrible word, but saying it doesn't mean you believe one race is superior to another. It just means you said nigger. Yes, and have you tried quoting the dictionary in any real academic setting? You don't need to believe one race is superior to another to be a racist . You just need to be viewed as a racist to be a racist. If you had to straight up prove that every racist had to explicitly "believe one race is superior to another to be a racist" you wouldn't have hate crimes and literally no one outside of people like Adolf Hitler would be considered racist. On May 04 2012 18:33 saint_d wrote:On May 04 2012 18:22 adrenaLinG wrote:
If you are using racist language, you are a racist. You can be donating millions of dollars to Latino charities but if you're going around calling people "spics" you are still a racist, end of story. Whether you like it or not, you are using language that offends a lot of people even if you don't find it offensive, or if destiny's white knights don't find it offensive. Destiny's viewers of course hold themselves to high internet standards here. Especially, as I have already mentioned, they are white straight male nerds sitting alone at home on the computer and totally beyond language being offensive and racist. What's the big deal anyway? If you don't see the racial prejudice in your own logically flawed post I can see why shit like this happens. The real problem is there are far too many people on the internet with far too little to do. They get angry over this or that and seek out ways to lash out. If you are legitimately offended by anything said by someone over the internet in any non official capacity may I suggest you take a deep look inward and re-evaluate what you are doing with your time. You don't like what destiny says? Don't watch his stream, don't like him being on a team? Email his TEAM about it. As far as I'm concerned destiny isn't a progamer, he is a guy who plays on his computer a lot and has people interested in what he says. He isn't in your house, he hasn't found a way to force himself on you. You chose to watch his stream for some reason or another, don't like what you see. Move on. If he is so bad he'll fade away, he isn't amazing at the game he doesn't win anything of consequence. If you feel real strongly just email Quantic and let them know the guy is a dick and move on. You wouldn't say a fucking thing to him in person and you have to go as far behind his back on the internet as possible. His life isn't your business move on. Sigh.. angry people on the internet, arguing about things like racist language! Don't they have anything better to do? Why can't they just stop complaining and send letters to the editor! Then this word is fairly meaningless. We would need a word for someone who DOES actually believe one race is superior to another. You are putting them on equal ground, whether they believe it or not. I think if you appear a racist, you might as well be a racist, in a practical sense, but you still aren't a racist. It's just grammar. You're discussing social issues, which is fine, it's just off-topic when in a grammar conversation. If you have a problem with an established definition, take it up with your dictionary of choice, I don't have any say in it.
No one cares about grammar or "real definitions". If a ton of people are offended by your racist language and think you're a racist -- you're a racist. Especially if they are angry enough to be calling you out on it and/or emailing your sponsors and superiors.
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On May 04 2012 18:29 Incognoto wrote:I can't believe this. I've just lost a huge amount of faith in the community. For the record, I don't have anything against TL moderation. It's their site and they do what they want. I didn't like Destiny's ban, however I don't feel it wasn't justified (read the 10 commandments thing). This is TL's site, if they've had the success they've had up until now it's for a reason. As to what I think about the language, read here. It's beating a dead horse so you can skip it if you want. + Show Spoiler +For the record, I have absolutely no problem with Destiny's racial slurs. At the beginning, when he started using them, I felt that it was too much and I was put off by it. However, Destiny explained his arguments about the use of his language ( here is a youtube video of Destiny having a discussion about this). I then started not minding, because Destiny's arguments made sense. I advise anyone who has a problem with Destiny's language to watch the video. If they're going to have such strong feelings about such a matter than they owe it to everyone to at least listen to a counter-argument. Not doing so is just fucking stale balderdash. Again, it shocks and appalls me that anyone would go so far just to hurt a player who hasn't done anything other than use "offensive" words. It's just incredibly stupid. Let's imagine that we had a homosexual SC2 pro player. Let's just imagine this. Anyone can be incredibly offensive to this player and personally attack him without using a single offensive word. I've put an example in spoilers just to express my point: + Show Spoiler +you little piece of dirt. you're a dog that's what you are, you and whoever you're with. going about, spreading diseases with your strangeness, it's un-natural, it's disgusting, that's all you are. i sincerely hope you and your kind die painful deaths from HIV, the less of you there are the better See what I did there? Not a single swear word was even used yet I said something much more offensive than Destiny has ever said on stream. Now let's take this example: http://i.imgur.com/y8F8n.jpgImagine if instead, it had said "the absolute epitome of being a skill-less fucking fucking idiot, fuck off you dog" If that's what had been said there would have been none of this pointless drama, even though both of expressions mean the same thing. The one thing that annoys me is that no one is going to really change their mind of the issue, yet they're going to refuse to at least hear the other side of the argument. I don't want people to change their minds, I want people to agree to disagree. I'm pretty sure that no one who's faced Destiny on the ladder has gone off and killed themselves or broke down to tears after Destiny flamed them. I dislike Cruncher, that doesn't mean I go out and insult him every single turn I get. That doesn't mean I jump on an occasion I get to email his sponsor and taint his reputation. I was pissed off when he eliminated Idra and Mondragon with cheesy builds, I didn't' muck the forums because I was butt-hurt. I don't go on his stream and insult him. People who have that kind of behavior are basically taking a nice colorful shit on what esports represent. I'm glad TL moderates them. Furthermore, the community isn't here to police players or go on witch hunts. If a player is doing something that could be considered distasteful, the best thing to do is to just email the team (in private, with a calm and reasonable email). The absolute worst thing to do is post about and complain about publicly so that all the hateful idiots can rally around and muck up the forums for reasons that are iffy at best. If warden had a problem with Destiny he should have taken it up to Destiny or Quantic, not start this concentration of idiocy. Immature, that's what it was. Worst part is that I've learned a huge amount of stuff from Destiny, both about Zerg and other topics, yet I've never even heard of warden before this incident. I wonder who actually contributed more to the community? And this is how he's thanked. The worst part is that they didn't even harm Destiny as much as they hoped, but they nearly dealt huge, hurtful blows to Quantic (and all of the good players on Quantic's team). It's appalling. Appalling. I can't repeat this word enough because that's what this situation is. I expected something more intelligent from the community but apparently there's still this hateful part of it that does a lot of damage for almost no good, except provoking this dumb drama. Idra's rivalries are good drama, they interest people. This is fucking retarded. My respect for Destiny sky-rocketed when he left the team because it would be best for everyone. I'll continue to support him more than ever now. But the community just took a huge nose-dive in my esteem. Edit: Now I feel bad for having posted this because no one is even going to read it, preferring to justify their shitty actions with one-liners about how good they are for the community.
Keep quoting this guys, this is so true and so right, don't let it get buried.
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On May 04 2012 18:51 CaptainCrush wrote:
The SC2 community, and furthermore, the internet as a whole has hit a new low. This guy just left his job and was branded a low-life for saying some words out of rage.
I've said some crap before that wasnt appropriate, Im sure that most of you have. It wasnt a public broadcast, his stream did say that there was mature language, unfortuantely an immature person was watching and blew this way out of proportion.
I wasnt a fan of the guy before, but I think I might be now. My faith in the SC2 community and even the mods on this site has sunk to a new low though. People should really think twice before they go around getting offended by everything that happens on the internet.
Saying racist slurs is all right if it is done out of anger? What about all the times he says them when he isn't angry. Enjoy catching him occasionally playing league of legends and adding 'nig' onto names of characters whenever he feels like, being casually misogynistic to women and calling people faggots without being angry in the least, it's almost like he's a child who can't monitor his shittiness for the sake of other human beings. OR SOMETHING
Not that I'm even agreeing with you that being angry excuses him or some dumb shit.
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How many of you shitwits will continue referring to this as a witch hunt holy moly
User was temp banned for this post.
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Yes, and have you tried quoting the dictionary in any real academic setting? You don't need to believe one race is superior to another to be a racist. You just need to be viewed as a racist to be a racist. If you had to straight up prove that every racist had to explicitly "believe one race is superior to another to be a racist" you wouldn't have hate crimes and literally no one outside of people like Adolf Hitler would be considered racist.
That's some really dumb shit right there to be frank. There are no white supremacists outside of Adolf Hitler, literally?
You are racist if you in some kind of way consider your race superior to others and/or one or several other races to be inferior. If that is your beliefs, you are a racist and it has nothing to do with what words you choose to use.
EDIT: You are judged by your actions at face value, not people trying to examine what your "intent" was or the "context" of it.
That's actually only a problem for the guy getting offended, if he cant think twice before blowing up and declaring his "dignity" has been insulted, too bad for him.
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Kinda funny how stupid the community can be.
Good luck Destiny, I will keep watching your stream daily anyway anyone who watches you knows you are not racist and you are just joking around. Just the fact that he is friends with Debo already proves hes not racist.
Ah well. ROOTDestiny fighting.
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On May 04 2012 15:52 Vague wrote:
Good for Quantic. I guess they want to have an even more professional look, which is good.
Maybe time for EG to follow?
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This thread is a very dark day for Teamliquid and the Starcraft II community.
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Can someone experienced please make a greasemonkey mod for teamliquid where a destiny face appears in the upper corner and functions as a link to his stream?
colour image when he's online.
black and white when he's offline.
lol.
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On May 04 2012 16:26 Tyree wrote:Show nested quote +TL community reminds of carrion swarms, or vultures that descend upon anyone unfortunate enough to do anything they deem "unacceptable". Why are you putting " " around unacceptable, in what nation is it acceptable to racially abuse people? In real life you would get fired from your job, expelled from school etc it has actual real consequences. Its about time that the same rules apply to the internet.
Because at this point it doesn't matter what someone says on their stream, if some people have a problem with it, they'll fucking take it to the sponsors like whiny children crying to their mother for reassurance.
I did not say anything about using racial slurs being acceptable or not.
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It's amazing because in doing so you completely ignore the fact that it is about racism and language and more subtle things like racist priming and manage to completely make it about how it effects the white guy being bigoted. Like you cannot even fathom that people are UPSET that he is a RACIST, you have to contrive some deep-seated hate for Steven that exists in your pathetic fantasies. You completely pervert a potentially positive and genuine discussion about racism, gaming culture, and white privilege in an attempt to make Steven a fucking victim. What the Fuck.
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EPT
