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Keep this civil, guys |
+ Show Spoiler +On May 04 2012 18:30 TheDraken wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:25 adrenaLinG wrote:On May 04 2012 18:23 TheDraken wrote:On May 04 2012 17:51 Myrkskog wrote:On May 04 2012 17:45 FairForever wrote:This context is slightly different than using the word as a reference to an African American. I think the meaning of my point was understood. So it's okay if it's not used in a racist context, or at least not as bad? Do you believe that Destiny genuinely hates the Korean people? And you can say white/black people, those words aren't African Americanlisted yet. see, this is the problem right here. the word nigger used to not be an insult. it was just what they were called, and what they called themselves. then nigger became insulting, so we started to call them black people. then black people got offensive, so we started to call them colored people. then colored people got offensive, so we started to call them african(american) how many words do you want to lace with negative connotations before you're satisfied? it's ridiculous that in america people have to lower their voice when they mention someone is black. so they're black. who fucking cares. it's not meant to be tied to racism. same thing with nigger. it's an insult, it's meant to be offensive, but stop trying to tie it back to racism. i can tell a lot of people can't conceive of nigger NOT being racist, but if that's the way you look at it don't watch streamers that use it as a normal insult. Did you know the word "faggot" used to refer to a bundle of sticks? and in the UK fags refer to cigarettes, so people go around saying if they can "bum a fag"? OMG LOL right!!! Smarten up. oh. thank you for proving my point.
Also, Faggots are foodstuffs; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_(food)
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On May 04 2012 18:28 ArrowInTheKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:22 adrenaLinG wrote:
If you are using racist language, you are a racist. You can be donating millions of dollars to Latino charities but if you're going around calling people "spics" you are still a racist, end of story. Whether you like it or not, you are using language that offends a lot of people even if you don't find it offensive, or if destiny's white knights don't find it offensive. Destiny's viewers of course hold themselves to high internet standards here. Especially, as I have already mentioned, since they are white straight male nerds sitting alone at home on the computer and totally beyond language being offensive and racist. What's the big deal anyway? So when black people call each other the n-word are they racist? I know it doesn't really relate to this Destiny stuff, I'm just curious.
Cause its used in a totally different context, they are not saying it to completely strangers after loosing.
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On May 04 2012 18:22 adrenaLinG wrote:
If you are using racist language, you are a racist. You can be donating millions of dollars to Latino charities but if you're going around calling people "spics" you are still a racist, end of story. Whether you like it or not, you are using language that offends a lot of people even if you don't find it offensive, or if destiny's white knights don't find it offensive. Destiny's viewers of course hold themselves to high internet standards here. Especially, as I have already mentioned, since they are white straight male nerds sitting alone at home on the computer and totally beyond language being offensive and racist. What's the big deal anyway?
By that logic most black rappers are discriminating towards their own kind and anyone who has ever used the word "faggot" is a homophobic asshole who needs to grow up. Richard Dawkins and Stephen Colbert are without a shadow of a doubt advocating hate speech directed at religious people and when you speak ill of someones favorite football team you are actually directing a personal insult towards that person because you hate him because of his team.
For heavens sake, think before you judge, what are you some kind of mom in the suburbs? Language =/= opinion.
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I am going to try to say something I have seen people get banned for in a way that is polite, respectful, and well thought-out.
I agree with Destiny (to a degree) but that's only one of many issues here. I'm going to set that aside since it boils down to ideological disagreement and those are rarely solved on a forum >.>
What bothers me most is also something that bothered me ever so slightly after the orb thing: why THIS person (in this case Destiny, in that case orb)? Flip through some of the old vod's of SotG, and you'll see numerous players saying awful things. Remember the time incontrol was super rude to Mia to her face? OH, or how about the dozens of screenshots of IdrA calling people faggots/niggers/wastes-of-life/et alia? Tons of other players have done things similar to this and been screen-capped/recorded, but I point out these examples because they're on EG, and Alex said pretty clearly he dropped orb because he didn't want this sort of thing on his team.
Still, it wouldn't take much to find other examples, and I was curious why orb after the orb thing, and why destiny now. I justified it by saying that EG.Alex has the right to do as he wishes with his team, and that orb had sorta billed himself as an "upright figure" so to speak. But Destiny never has. If nothing else, you must all concede that Destiny has been honest since day 1.
I guess I'd really just like to know why all this happened to Destiny and why it all happened now *shrugs*
Also, I know it isn't AS on-topic as it could be, but I just had to get my two-cents out there
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I don't understand the issue. The guy gets paid to play videogames and fails to abide to a simple request. Why would you feel sorry, I do not know.
You want to be a community where you have a representative call other people "nigger", "gook" and "faggot" infront of a huge audience. Sounds promising.
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On May 04 2012 18:30 TheDraken wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:25 adrenaLinG wrote:On May 04 2012 18:23 TheDraken wrote:On May 04 2012 17:51 Myrkskog wrote:On May 04 2012 17:45 FairForever wrote:This context is slightly different than using the word as a reference to an African American. I think the meaning of my point was understood. So it's okay if it's not used in a racist context, or at least not as bad? Do you believe that Destiny genuinely hates the Korean people? And you can say white/black people, those words aren't African Americanlisted yet. see, this is the problem right here. the word nigger used to not be an insult. it was just what they were called, and what they called themselves. then nigger became insulting, so we started to call them black people. then black people got offensive, so we started to call them colored people. then colored people got offensive, so we started to call them african(american) how many words do you want to lace with negative connotations before you're satisfied? it's ridiculous that in america people have to lower their voice when they mention someone is black. so they're black. who fucking cares. it's not meant to be tied to racism. same thing with nigger. it's an insult, it's meant to be offensive, but stop trying to tie it back to racism. i can tell a lot of people can't conceive of nigger NOT being racist, but if that's the way you look at it don't watch streamers that use it as a normal insult. Did you know the word "faggot" used to refer to a bundle of sticks? and in the UK fags refer to cigarettes, so people go around saying if they can "bum a fag"? OMG LOL right!!! Smarten up. oh. thank you for proving my point.
Yeah it's called sarcasm. Language has these features where you can say one thing, mean another, and even insult entire groups of people from just the words you choose! Language is amazing, I know.
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On May 04 2012 18:29 adrenaLinG wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:25 ReturnStroke wrote:On May 04 2012 18:22 adrenaLinG wrote:
If you are using racist language, you are a racist. You can be donating millions of dollars to Latino charities but if you're going around calling people "spics" you are still a racist, end of story. Whether you like it or not, you are using language that offends a lot of people even if you don't find it offensive, or if destiny's white knights don't find it offensive. Destiny's viewers of course hold themselves to high internet standards here. Especially, as I have already mentioned, they are white straight male nerds sitting alone at home on the computer and totally beyond language being offensive and racist. What's the big deal anyway? rac·ist noun 1. a person who believes in racism, the doctrine that a certain human race is superior to any or all others. Saying it is irrelevant to being a racist unless you believe in it. End of story. Probably 95% (depending on your sample) of the people who say racist words aren't really racist. Still mean and insensitive for sure, though. nig·ger [nig-er] noun 1. Slang: Extremely Disparaging and Offensive . a. a black person. See if I call people niggers and they aren't black, I can't be racist because I'm just using it incorrectly! Not racist!
You missed my point. You can be racist even if you never say the word. That's my point entirely. The word doesn't mean it one way or the other, it's irrelevant. The word is racist in it's meaning, but saying it doesn't mean you're racist if you don't actually believe one race is superior to another. That's the dictionary definition. There isn't really any debate to be had. Nigger is a terrible word, but saying it doesn't mean you believe one race is superior to another. It just means you said nigger.
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On May 04 2012 18:22 adrenaLinG wrote:
If you are using racist language, you are a racist. You can be donating millions of dollars to Latino charities but if you're going around calling people "spics" you are still a racist, end of story. Whether you like it or not, you are using language that offends a lot of people even if you don't find it offensive, or if destiny's white knights don't find it offensive. Destiny's viewers of course hold themselves to high internet standards here. Especially, as I have already mentioned, they are white straight male nerds sitting alone at home on the computer and totally beyond language being offensive and racist. What's the big deal anyway?
If you don't see the racial prejudice in your own logically flawed post I can see why shit like this happens. The real problem is there are far too many people on the internet with far too little to do. They get angry over this or that and seek out ways to lash out. If you are legitimately offended by anything said by someone over the internet in any non official capacity may I suggest you take a deep look inward and re-evaluate what you are doing with your time. You don't like what destiny says? Don't watch his stream, don't like him being on a team? Email his TEAM about it. As far as I'm concerned destiny isn't a progamer, he is a guy who plays on his computer a lot and has people interested in what he says. He isn't in your house, he hasn't found a way to force himself on you. You chose to watch his stream for some reason or another, don't like what you see. Move on. If he is so bad he'll fade away, he isn't amazing at the game he doesn't win anything of consequence. If you feel real strongly just email Quantic and let them know the guy is a dick and move on. You wouldn't say a fucking thing to him in person and you have to go as far behind his back on the internet as possible. His life isn't your business move on.
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Canada11385 Posts
Some of these current arguments are giving me a headache.
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Fuck this hypersensitive PC bullshit. This community has turned to shit, full of crybabies from "oh no i have ladder anxiety i cant play" to "oh no this guy said a bad word he should be fired from his job and shunned immediately!!" The only people killing esports are exactly people like you. I really wonder how these people make it through the day in real life being crying about every little thing and being horrifically offended by everything. Fucks sake. 2 passionate people are out of a job because of u fkn whining reddit/tl herd. Now go get offended by this post and go QQ.
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On May 04 2012 18:27 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:18 Stiluz wrote:Congratulations lynch mob on TL, you just screwed over yet another person from our community. First Orb, now Destiny. Who's next on the list, IdrA? He seems pretty controversial and BM  Or maybe Day9? People like to talk about how great the SC2 community is, but the lynch mob proves them at our community is still as immature and prone to crap like any other. Your completely missing the point. Both Orb and Destiny were "lynched" because of their actions not because their some sort of angels that did absolutely nothing. The community didn't "screw them over", it was the players lack of self control which "screwed themselves" from the community.
Right, so how do you explain the fact that there are other examples of, if judged by the same standards, totally unnaceptable behavior by other pros that went largely ''unpunished'' by the community?
The commnuity possesses the ability to severely damage peoples careers and income, it is an incredibily frightening thing to see that power used very inconsistently. And what if it was used on a consistent basis? Are players to live in fear of us, the fans? Are they supposed to sweat at night worrying if a white knight saw their ladder rage and got offended by one of the words used, and decided to email sponsors?
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Zurich15358 Posts
On May 04 2012 18:26 BXiT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:23 motbob wrote:On May 04 2012 18:21 BXiT wrote:On May 04 2012 18:19 motbob wrote:On May 04 2012 18:15 BXiT wrote:On May 04 2012 18:12 Feidspar wrote:
The TL community is a cancer and I'm terrified for the future of starcraft if these nazis are in charge.
Racism is not okay, but sexism is? And homophobia is also acceptable? If not, better ban and un-list 90% of all pro players. Who gets to cherrypick which insults are fine and dandy? Hypocrits.
Oh. And how about banning the idiot mods who instigate others by calling them pussies and retards. I agree! If TL wants to be proved trustworthy admins and mods, it should happen! EDIT : LOL he is banned for that. WTF mods... wake up please! dear please. Sorry -_- I misinterpreted his post. I'm in the process of trying to get his ban reduced. Egg on my face. Thanks a lot! It's the first time I see that happen and it's great. But it's exactly why you should have some community control. A banned user can't interact anymore (even in private) and you can't count on other users to "save" you. Please at least consider it. Banned users can PM the mod that banned them, actually. Appeals are made all the time and they're granted pretty much every time the mod has made a mistake. Sure but you are judge and judged in this scenario. You can't assure that somebody are always impartial and recognize his mistakes. That is why dealing with that should be handle in a different way. In particular for a community of this importance. Anyway, thanks again
As Falling and motbot have said, there is an appeal process. Banned users can still PM staff. If there is disagreement with the mod who banned the issue is being discussed in the moderation forum, and if the other mods disagree with the ban it is lifted / shortened.
Ban appeals and ban corrections are part of moderating TL, and happen all the time. It might be hard to believe to many out there but we are actually not a bunch of power drunk maniac nazis.
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On May 04 2012 18:31 naux wrote:
I truly believe the SC2 community are pretty low and sad for emailing sponsors and calling out another player. If people keep crying about players saying "slur and racial" words then go watch the kids channel. If i was a top player i wouldnt even stream, why because if i stream and accidently used a "bad" word all these pitch forks of random people who dont even follow the scene would cry. I followed CS 1.6 for the longest time i never seen any body in the community cry over things said over a match or even a scrim, the community actually tried to help it grow not kill it. After following SC2 i truly believe this community needs to grow a pair and quit crying over every little thing that happens over somebody elses stream, everyone knows what kinda things Destiny does so if your gonna post shit on Teamliquid.net over nothing your just a narc. Another sad day for the SC2 Community.
Bet somebody there life that another poster will post a thread in less then a month trying to destroy another players career. thats how sad its gotten. I dont even watch destinys stream or care for it but i care for the SC2 Scene to actually say something and not try to ruin anothers players career.
The community had two people fired in a span of almost two years? That's your definition of crying about every little thing?
The other thing I see the community moaning about is game balance.
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Listen, if you or anyone has a problem with a player, talk to him, talk to his team. DO NOT SEND COMPLAINT EMAILS TO THE LIMITED NUMBER OF COMPANIES KIND ENOUGH TO SUPPORT ESPORTS. Razer, and other companies like them, do not have to give money out to anyone. The fact that they do is awesome. Fantastic. Amazing. People who discourage this are actually killing esports. If there is no money, there is no sport. Idiots.
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On May 04 2012 18:35 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:31 naux wrote:
I truly believe the SC2 community are pretty low and sad for emailing sponsors and calling out another player. If people keep crying about players saying "slur and racial" words then go watch the kids channel. If i was a top player i wouldnt even stream, why because if i stream and accidently used a "bad" word all these pitch forks of random people who dont even follow the scene would cry. I followed CS 1.6 for the longest time i never seen any body in the community cry over things said over a match or even a scrim, the community actually tried to help it grow not kill it. After following SC2 i truly believe this community needs to grow a pair and quit crying over every little thing that happens over somebody elses stream, everyone knows what kinda things Destiny does so if your gonna post shit on Teamliquid.net over nothing your just a narc. Another sad day for the SC2 Community.
Bet somebody there life that another poster will post a thread in less then a month trying to destroy another players career. thats how sad its gotten. I dont even watch destinys stream or care for it but i care for the SC2 Scene to actually say something and not try to ruin anothers players career. The community had two people fired in a span of almost two years? That's your definition of crying about every little thing? The other thing I see the community moaning about is game balance.
I mean... not 2 years. the whole orb things happened what, March 12th according to liquipedia? So... about 7-8 weeks?
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The amount of semantics being discussed with no understanding of what semantics actually means and why it matters in these destiny threads, amazes me.
If you are going to discuss context, definition, and popular meaning in regards to their relation to each other and the perspective of their relationship by others... at least recognize you are doing that.
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I think the community has let itself down this time. Should Destiny have said it? No. But should the community have responded this way to force this outcome?? No.
The community needs to grow a thicker skin and learn how to deal with these issue's in a more mature and thought-out manner. I Also dissagree with Destiny's banning from TL, i think TL could have handled that much better, people seem to forget that he has done a lot for Esports.
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On May 04 2012 18:35 Jebotres wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:27 BlazeFury01 wrote:On May 04 2012 18:18 Stiluz wrote:Congratulations lynch mob on TL, you just screwed over yet another person from our community. First Orb, now Destiny. Who's next on the list, IdrA? He seems pretty controversial and BM Or maybe Day9? People like to talk about how great the SC2 community is, but the lynch mob proves them at our community is still as immature and prone to crap like any other. Your completely missing the point. Both Orb and Destiny were "lynched" because of their actions not because their some sort of angels that did absolutely nothing. The community didn't "screw them over", it was the players lack of self control which "screwed themselves" from the community. Right, so how do you explain the fact that there are other examples of, if judged by the same standards, totally unnaceptable behavior by other pros that went largely ''unpunished'' by the community? The commnuity possesses the ability to severely damage peoples careers and income, it is an incredibily frightening thing to see that power used very inconsistently. And what if it was used on a consistent basis? Are players to live in fear of us, the fans? Are they supposed to sweat at night worrying if a white knight saw their ladder rage and got offended by one of the words used, and decided to email sponsors?
Personally, I believe it's their choice to do/say whatever they feel. That said, they should already be aware of the consequences before doing so. Also, who said that it was a white knight who was offended by something said on stream, and not individual players who the words were directed against that emailed the sponsers?
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On May 04 2012 16:28 blamous wrote:
I would just like to point out that the same blind sense of anonymity and rage that allows guys like Destiny and Orb to TYPE UGLY WORDS IN A FREAKIN CHAT is the exact same blind sense of anonymity and rage that allows other more self righteous people to write the hateful emails that are COSTING PEOPLE THEIR JOBS AND LIVELIHOODS.
You tell me which is more caustic and hurtful... fucking hypocrites.
User was temp banned for this post.
Profanity and ALL-CAPS aside, this is actually a good point.
Emailing sponsors is such a terrible, terrible idea. SC2 really needs a due process when it comes to disputes between individuals and the community. Seriously, can you imagine this happening in Korea with a BW player? The scene has a long way to go before it becomes truely professional.
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On May 04 2012 18:36 BanditX wrote:
Listen, if you or anyone has a problem with a player, talk to him, talk to his team. DO NOT SEND COMPLAINT EMAILS TO THE LIMITED NUMBER OF COMPANIES KIND ENOUGH TO SUPPORT ESPORTS. Razer, and other companies like them, do not have to give money out to anyone. The fact that they do is awesome. Fantastic. Amazing. People who discourage this are actually killing esports. If there is no money, there is no sport. Idiots.
Yeah right. They sponsor esport because they are so kind that they want you to be happy...
And of course because they give money, we should be let them do whatever they wants with us, our culture, our values. What do we call this kind of people ? I think their activity is forbidden in most countries...
Idiot.
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EPT
