On May 04 2012 18:31 naux wrote: I truly believe the SC2 community are pretty low and sad for emailing sponsors and calling out another player. If people keep crying about players saying "slur and racial" words then go watch the kids channel. If i was a top player i wouldnt even stream, why because if i stream and accidently used a "bad" word all these pitch forks of random people who dont even follow the scene would cry. I followed CS 1.6 for the longest time i never seen any body in the community cry over things said over a match or even a scrim, the community actually tried to help it grow not kill it. After following SC2 i truly believe this community needs to grow a pair and quit crying over every little thing that happens over somebody elses stream, everyone knows what kinda things Destiny does so if your gonna post shit on Teamliquid.net over nothing your just a narc. Another sad day for the SC2 Community.
Bet somebody there life that another poster will post a thread in less then a month trying to destroy another players career. thats how sad its gotten. I dont even watch destinys stream or care for it but i care for the SC2 Scene to actually say something and not try to ruin anothers players career.
The community had two people fired in a span of almost two years? That's your definition of crying about every little thing?
The other thing I see the community moaning about is game balance.
You want me to name a couple things? GSTL Marineking vs PARTING [edit] IdrAs rage Orbs Situation Naniwas probe rush MC 2gate rushing white ra Huk going to EG
should i continue? having 2 people fired over racial slurs is BS.
On May 04 2012 18:31 naux wrote: I truly believe the SC2 community are pretty low and sad for emailing sponsors and calling out another player. If people keep crying about players saying "slur and racial" words then go watch the kids channel. If i was a top player i wouldnt even stream, why because if i stream and accidently used a "bad" word all these pitch forks of random people who dont even follow the scene would cry. I followed CS 1.6 for the longest time i never seen any body in the community cry over things said over a match or even a scrim, the community actually tried to help it grow not kill it. After following SC2 i truly believe this community needs to grow a pair and quit crying over every little thing that happens over somebody elses stream, everyone knows what kinda things Destiny does so if your gonna post shit on Teamliquid.net over nothing your just a narc. Another sad day for the SC2 Community.
Bet somebody there life that another poster will post a thread in less then a month trying to destroy another players career. thats how sad its gotten. I dont even watch destinys stream or care for it but i care for the SC2 Scene to actually say something and not try to ruin anothers players career.
The community had two people fired in a span of almost two years? That's your definition of crying about every little thing?
The other thing I see the community moaning about is game balance.
I mean... not 2 years. the whole orb things happened what, March 12th according to liquipedia? So... about 7-8 weeks?
Indeed, but the SC2 community has existed for about two years. Both Orb and Destiny used that language on a regular basis for the last two years and only recently have been punished for it.
On May 04 2012 17:45 FairForever wrote:This context is slightly different than using the word as a reference to an African American. I think the meaning of my point was understood.
So it's okay if it's not used in a racist context, or at least not as bad?
Do you believe that Destiny genuinely hates the Korean people?
And you can say white/black people, those words aren't African Americanlisted yet.
see, this is the problem right here.
the word nigger used to not be an insult. it was just what they were called, and what they called themselves.
then nigger became insulting, so we started to call them black people.
then black people got offensive, so we started to call them colored people.
then colored people got offensive, so we started to call them african(american)
how many words do you want to lace with negative connotations before you're satisfied? it's ridiculous that in america people have to lower their voice when they mention someone is black. so they're black. who fucking cares. it's not meant to be tied to racism.
same thing with nigger. it's an insult, it's meant to be offensive, but stop trying to tie it back to racism. i can tell a lot of people can't conceive of nigger NOT being racist, but if that's the way you look at it don't watch streamers that use it as a normal insult.
Did you know the word "faggot" used to refer to a bundle of sticks? and in the UK fags refer to cigarettes, so people go around saying if they can "bum a fag"? OMG LOL right!!!
Smarten up.
oh. thank you for proving my point.
Yeah it's called sarcasm. Language has these features where you can say one thing, mean another, and even insult entire groups of people from just the words you choose! Language is amazing, I know.
not sure how sarcastically proving my point is supposed to "stick it to me" but whatever bro.
On May 04 2012 18:22 adrenaLinG wrote: If you are using racist language, you are a racist. You can be donating millions of dollars to Latino charities but if you're going around calling people "spics" you are still a racist, end of story. Whether you like it or not, you are using language that offends a lot of people even if you don't find it offensive, or if destiny's white knights don't find it offensive. Destiny's viewers of course hold themselves to high internet standards here. Especially, as I have already mentioned, since they are white straight male nerds sitting alone at home on the computer and totally beyond language being offensive and racist. What's the big deal anyway?
So when black people call each other the n-word are they racist? I know it doesn't really relate to this Destiny stuff, I'm just curious.
Cause its used in a totally different context, they are not saying it to completely strangers after loosing.
I was just going off his definition of using racist language makes you a racist.
This is really retarded.Now everytime a pro BM s on ladder they will e mail to sponsors and it will piss the sponsors mostly.This is lose-lose for everybody.This shouldnt be happening.
On May 04 2012 18:31 naux wrote: I truly believe the SC2 community are pretty low and sad for emailing sponsors and calling out another player. If people keep crying about players saying "slur and racial" words then go watch the kids channel. If i was a top player i wouldnt even stream, why because if i stream and accidently used a "bad" word all these pitch forks of random people who dont even follow the scene would cry. I followed CS 1.6 for the longest time i never seen any body in the community cry over things said over a match or even a scrim, the community actually tried to help it grow not kill it. After following SC2 i truly believe this community needs to grow a pair and quit crying over every little thing that happens over somebody elses stream, everyone knows what kinda things Destiny does so if your gonna post shit on Teamliquid.net over nothing your just a narc. Another sad day for the SC2 Community.
Bet somebody there life that another poster will post a thread in less then a month trying to destroy another players career. thats how sad its gotten. I dont even watch destinys stream or care for it but i care for the SC2 Scene to actually say something and not try to ruin anothers players career.
The community had two people fired in a span of almost two years? That's your definition of crying about every little thing?
The other thing I see the community moaning about is game balance.
You want me to name a couple things? GSTL Marineking vs PARTING [edit] IdrAs rage Orbs Situation Naniwas probe rush MC 2gate rushing white ra Huk going to EG
should i continue? having 2 people fired over racial slurs is BS.
On May 04 2012 18:42 taintmachine wrote: there are few things less important than an internet videogame streamer (who i do not watch) saying bad words or having bad words on stream.
what a gigantic waste of time and effort from all of those concerned
It's obviously important to somebody. It had to start somewhere :/
On May 04 2012 18:22 adrenaLinG wrote: If you are using racist language, you are a racist. You can be donating millions of dollars to Latino charities but if you're going around calling people "spics" you are still a racist, end of story. Whether you like it or not, you are using language that offends a lot of people even if you don't find it offensive, or if destiny's white knights don't find it offensive. Destiny's viewers of course hold themselves to high internet standards here. Especially, as I have already mentioned, they are white straight male nerds sitting alone at home on the computer and totally beyond language being offensive and racist. What's the big deal anyway?
rac·ist noun 1. a person who believes in racism, the doctrine that a certain human race is superior to any or all others.
Saying it is irrelevant to being a racist unless you believe in it. End of story. Probably 95% (depending on your sample) of the people who say racist words aren't really racist. Still mean and insensitive for sure, though.
nig·ger [nig-er] noun 1. Slang: Extremely Disparaging and Offensive . a. a black person.
See if I call people niggers and they aren't black, I can't be racist because I'm just using it incorrectly! Not racist!
You missed my point. You can be racist even if you never say the word. That's my point entirely. The word doesn't mean it one way or the other, it's irrelevant. The word is racist in it's meaning, but saying it doesn't mean you're racist if you don't actually believe one race is superior to another. That's the dictionary definition. There isn't really any debate to be had. Nigger is a terrible word, but saying it doesn't mean you believe one race is superior to another. It just means you said nigger.
Yes, and have you tried quoting the dictionary in any real academic setting? You don't need to believe one race is superior to another to be a racist. You just need to be viewed as a racist to be a racist. If you had to straight up prove that every racist had to explicitly "believe one race is superior to another to be a racist" you wouldn't have hate crimes and literally no one outside of people like Adolf Hitler would be considered racist.
EDIT: You are judged by your actions at face value, not people trying to examine what your "intent" was or the "context" of it
On May 04 2012 18:22 adrenaLinG wrote: If you are using racist language, you are a racist. You can be donating millions of dollars to Latino charities but if you're going around calling people "spics" you are still a racist, end of story. Whether you like it or not, you are using language that offends a lot of people even if you don't find it offensive, or if destiny's white knights don't find it offensive. Destiny's viewers of course hold themselves to high internet standards here. Especially, as I have already mentioned, they are white straight male nerds sitting alone at home on the computer and totally beyond language being offensive and racist. What's the big deal anyway?
If you don't see the racial prejudice in your own logically flawed post I can see why shit like this happens. The real problem is there are far too many people on the internet with far too little to do. They get angry over this or that and seek out ways to lash out. If you are legitimately offended by anything said by someone over the internet in any non official capacity may I suggest you take a deep look inward and re-evaluate what you are doing with your time. You don't like what destiny says? Don't watch his stream, don't like him being on a team? Email his TEAM about it. As far as I'm concerned destiny isn't a progamer, he is a guy who plays on his computer a lot and has people interested in what he says. He isn't in your house, he hasn't found a way to force himself on you. You chose to watch his stream for some reason or another, don't like what you see. Move on. If he is so bad he'll fade away, he isn't amazing at the game he doesn't win anything of consequence. If you feel real strongly just email Quantic and let them know the guy is a dick and move on. You wouldn't say a fucking thing to him in person and you have to go as far behind his back on the internet as possible. His life isn't your business move on.
Sigh.. angry people on the internet, arguing about things like racist language! Don't they have anything better to do? Why can't they just stop complaining and send letters to the editor!
On May 04 2012 18:42 Silentenigma wrote: This is really retarded.Now everytime a pro BM s on ladder they will e mail to sponsors and it will piss the sponsors mostly.This is lose-lose for everybody.This shouldnt be happening.
The only time anyone has gotten in any real major trouble is for racist comments. I don't think anyone cares if idra tells someone to fuck off or bm like that. I don't think even that many people cared about this tbh, just a vocal minority, but it's not a bad thing that a community doesn't accept racist remarks. I've never seen anyone complain about a streamer using vulgar language as long as it's not racist/homophobic (afaik idra got in trouble from EG management for calling people faggots, so it's not just the community that hates this stuff, it's internal management too.)
I'm starting to think that people that are oversensitive to racial slurs are just closet racists. Much like when homophobes turn out being closet homosexuals.
It's pretty simple. The players aren't stupid. It's widely known what is considered offensive by general population, even if Destiny chooses not to acknowledge that the words should be considered offensive, he knows that they are. He also would know that certain sponsors would not want to be associated with these offensive sentiments. He's made his own bed.
He has often used the excuse that if people don't like his racist/offensive comments the don't have to watch, but this is a flawed argument. Not everyone that tunes into his stream is a seasoned viewer, and some may even be new to Starcraft in general and are unaware of his antics. When it comes to ladder, Blizzard has matched these people together. The other player has no control over who he plays against, and what filth will appear on his screen.
Destiny feels it is ok to subject other people to his hateful comments, so the fact that he is so offended by the communities reaction is hypocritical.
This being said I personally am not offfended by his comments. The fact is though that some people will be, and he knows this, and he does it anyway. Intent or not, he's wilfully offensive and deserves punishment.
The sc2 community makes me sad sometimes Seriously stop these goddamn witch hunts. Saying bad words on stream isn't anything to get upset about, put your energy in to some of the real injustices in the world instead...
If everyone just takes a step back from arguing over language use, people's differing opinion on what's right and what isn't and what the motives of the people are who contact sponsors (over anything).
For one the people doing this are most likely doing it because they can, history has shown a few people (minority) get pleasure from this false sense of power - they do something = consequences for someone else. Blah blah don't care, these people will always exist and are not worth the time I am spending typing this.
Secondly I'm not sure whether this has been mentioned or not but whether or not people contact sponsors over this type of thing surely the bottom line is that if a sponsor catches wind (say an employee watches a stream and sees the behaviour) of the actions of indivuduals would they still enforce action? If the answer is yes then whistleblowers are not the issue at all as Teams are running the risk of these problems arising if they do not control their players.
It's not a question of thicker skin or what's offensive to whom it's a question of - would your sponsors dislike the people they sponsor acting in this way and if so the Team/manager whatever should be the first people taking action.
On May 04 2012 18:29 Incognoto wrote: I can't believe this. I've just lost a huge amount of faith in the community.
For the record, I don't have anything against TL moderation. It's their site and they do what they want. I didn't like Destiny's ban, however I don't feel it wasn't justified (read the 10 commandments thing). This is TL's site, if they've had the success they've had up until now it's for a reason.
As to what I think about the language, read here. It's beating a dead horse so you can skip it if you want. + Show Spoiler +
For the record, I have absolutely no problem with Destiny's racial slurs. At the beginning, when he started using them, I felt that it was too much and I was put off by it. However, Destiny explained his arguments about the use of his language (here is a youtube video of Destiny having a discussion about this). I then started not minding, because Destiny's arguments made sense. I advise anyone who has a problem with Destiny's language to watch the video. If they're going to have such strong feelings about such a matter than they owe it to everyone to at least listen to a counter-argument. Not doing so is just fucking stale balderdash.
Again, it shocks and appalls me that anyone would go so far just to hurt a player who hasn't done anything other than use "offensive" words. It's just incredibly stupid. Let's imagine that we had a homosexual SC2 pro player. Let's just imagine this. Anyone can be incredibly offensive to this player and personally attack him without using a single offensive word. I've put an example in spoilers just to express my point:
you little piece of dirt. you're a dog that's what you are, you and whoever you're with. going about, spreading diseases with your strangeness, it's un-natural, it's disgusting, that's all you are. i sincerely hope you and your kind die painful deaths from HIV, the less of you there are the better
See what I did there? Not a single swear word was even used yet I said something much more offensive than Destiny has ever said on stream.
Imagine if instead, it had said "the absolute epitome of being a skill-less fucking fucking idiot, fuck off you dog"
If that's what had been said there would have been none of this pointless drama, even though both of expressions mean the same thing.
The one thing that annoys me is that no one is going to really change their mind of the issue, yet they're going to refuse to at least hear the other side of the argument. I don't want people to change their minds, I want people to agree to disagree. I'm pretty sure that no one who's faced Destiny on the ladder has gone off and killed themselves or broke down to tears after Destiny flamed them.
What does disgust the shit out of me are all these hate-driven anti-fans. It absolutely blows my mind. The issue was really a trivial one, and internet white knights just blew things completely out of proportion. Completely out of proportion. I'm shocked and appalled that the community would do such a thing. If you dislike someone then just leave him be. I don't understand why you'd do anything else. Hating a player is against the very principle of esports. The goal here is watch games, be fan-boys, enjoy playing the game, having fun.
I dislike Cruncher, that doesn't mean I go out and insult him every single turn I get. That doesn't mean I jump on an occasion I get to email his sponsor and taint his reputation. I was pissed off when he eliminated Idra and Mondragon with cheesy builds, I didn't' muck the forums because I was butt-hurt. I don't go on his stream and insult him. People who have that kind of behavior are basically taking a nice colorful shit on what esports represent. I'm glad TL moderates them.
Furthermore, the community isn't here to police players or go on witch hunts. If a player is doing something that could be considered distasteful, the best thing to do is to just email the team (in private, with a calm and reasonable email). The absolute worst thing to do is post about and complain about publicly so that all the hateful idiots can rally around and muck up the forums for reasons that are iffy at best. If warden had a problem with Destiny he should have taken it up to Destiny or Quantic, not start this concentration of idiocy. Immature, that's what it was. Worst part is that I've learned a huge amount of stuff from Destiny, both about Zerg and other topics, yet I've never even heard of warden before this incident. I wonder who actually contributed more to the community? And this is how he's thanked.
The worst part is that they didn't even harm Destiny as much as they hoped, but they nearly dealt huge, hurtful blows to Quantic (and all of the good players on Quantic's team). It's appalling. Appalling. I can't repeat this word enough because that's what this situation is. I expected something more intelligent from the community but apparently there's still this hateful part of it that does a lot of damage for almost no good, except provoking this dumb drama. Idra's rivalries are good drama, they interest people. This is fucking retarded.
My respect for Destiny sky-rocketed when he left the team because it would be best for everyone. I'll continue to support him more than ever now. But the community just took a huge nose-dive in my esteem.
Edit: Now I feel bad for having posted this because no one is even going to read it, preferring to justify their shitty actions with one-liners about how good they are for the community.
The fact of the matter is that destiny used the word 'gook' to INTENTIONALLY offend his opponent, it wasn't a spur of the moment rage thing. Something like raging, for example Idra, and not saying gg or saying 'fuck you' is understandable, but we can't sit idly by while destiny throws around racial slurs like that making excuses like 'oh well its just destiny' or 'oh well he was just raging, we all rage some times', no. people have to learn that intentionally using racist and offensive words will always give you negative attention from the community and nothing more.
On May 04 2012 18:46 Skiblet wrote: The fact of the matter is that destiny used the word 'gook' to INTENTIONALLY offend his opponent, it wasn't a spur of the moment rage thing. Something like raging, for example Idra, and not saying gg or saying 'fuck you' is understandable, but we can't sit idly by while destiny throws around racial slurs like that making excuses like 'oh well its just destiny' or 'oh well he was just raging, we all rage some times', no. people have to learn that intentionally using racist and offensive words will always give you negative attention from the community and nothing more.
dude that argument is long-gone. What's done is done, no need to beat a dead horse
On May 04 2012 18:42 taintmachine wrote: there are few things less important than an internet videogame streamer (who i do not watch) saying bad words or having bad words on stream.
what a gigantic waste of time and effort from all of those concerned
It's obviously important to somebody. It had to start somewhere :/
those people lack perspective. you do not have to watch destiny. no one does. no one is being hurt and afaik no laws are being broken. it is not important if someone says faggot on the internet at all.
some people pour more effort into attacking streamers and celebrities in real life and online than they do making themselves a better person or improving the lives of others. i question people who use their time in this way. they seem pathetic to me.
On May 04 2012 18:18 Stiluz wrote: Congratulations lynch mob on TL, you just screwed over yet another person from our community. First Orb, now Destiny. Who's next on the list, IdrA? He seems pretty controversial and BM Or maybe Day9?
People like to talk about how great the SC2 community is, but the lynch mob proves them at our community is still as immature and prone to crap like any other.
Your completely missing the point. Both Orb and Destiny were "lynched" because of their actions not because their some sort of angels that did absolutely nothing. The community didn't "screw them over", it was the players lack of self control which "screwed themselves" from the community.
Right, so how do you explain the fact that there are other examples of, if judged by the same standards, totally unnaceptable behavior by other pros that went largely ''unpunished'' by the community?
The commnuity possesses the ability to severely damage peoples careers and income, it is an incredibily frightening thing to see that power used very inconsistently. And what if it was used on a consistent basis? Are players to live in fear of us, the fans? Are they supposed to sweat at night worrying if a white knight saw their ladder rage and got offended by one of the words used, and decided to email sponsors?
Personally, I believe it's their choice to do/say whatever they feel. That said, they should already be aware of the consequences before doing so. Also, who said that it was a white knight who was offended by something said on stream, and not individual players who the words were directed against that emailed the sponsers?
How can they be aware of the consequences? The punishment laid out is based on the whims of a community that has so far not displayed any sign of consistency. One would have to leverage his standing in the community vs the severity of the offending statements made to approximate whether any punishment would be given.
Idra, for example, is so popular that he may literally wish death upon people and be just fine. Someone like Destiny who polarizes the community and is on average less liked, cannot get away with arguably less offensive statements.
And to answer your question, its just an example, there are many scenarios, but I was generally referring to the fact that threads are created and causes are rallied, it doesent stop at a personal email, clearly.
EPT
Seriously stop these goddamn witch hunts. Saying bad words on stream isn't anything to get upset about, put your energy in to some of the real injustices in the world instead...
Or maybe Day9? 
