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Keep this civil, guys |
motbob
United States12546 Posts
On May 04 2012 18:21 BXiT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:19 motbob wrote:On May 04 2012 18:15 BXiT wrote:On May 04 2012 18:12 Feidspar wrote:
The TL community is a cancer and I'm terrified for the future of starcraft if these nazis are in charge.
Racism is not okay, but sexism is? And homophobia is also acceptable? If not, better ban and un-list 90% of all pro players. Who gets to cherrypick which insults are fine and dandy? Hypocrits.
Oh. And how about banning the idiot mods who instigate others by calling them pussies and retards. I agree! If TL wants to be proved trustworthy admins and mods, it should happen! EDIT : LOL he is banned for that. WTF mods... wake up please! dear please. Sorry -_- I misinterpreted his post. I'm in the process of trying to get his ban reduced. Egg on my face. Thanks a lot! It's the first time I see that happen and it's great. But it's exactly why you should have some community control. A banned user can't interact anymore (even in private) and you can't count on other users to "save" you. Please at least consider it.
Banned users can PM the mod that banned them, actually. Appeals are made all the time and they're granted pretty much every time the mod has made a mistake.
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This isn't a "victory" in any sense of the word. Tbh we don't even know the full extent of the damage this might have caused Quantic.
All we know is
- Destiny is off Quantic, and that will probably make very little difference to him
- any further repurcussions from Razer (e.g. if they decide "this is too messy, let's not renew our sponsorship of Quantic) only hurts Quantic and their players, and not Destiny
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On May 04 2012 17:51 Myrkskog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:45 FairForever wrote:This context is slightly different than using the word as a reference to an African American. I think the meaning of my point was understood. So it's okay if it's not used in a racist context, or at least not as bad? Do you believe that Destiny genuinely hates the Korean people? And you can say white/black people, those words aren't African Americanlisted yet.
see, this is the problem right here.
the word nigger used to not be an insult. it was just what they were called, and what they called themselves.
then nigger became insulting, so we started to call them black people.
then black people got offensive, so we started to call them colored people.
then colored people got offensive, so we started to call them african(american)
how many words do you want to lace with negative connotations before you're satisfied? it's ridiculous that in america people have to lower their voice when they mention someone is black. so they're black. who fucking cares. it's not meant to be tied to racism.
same thing with nigger. it's an insult, it's meant to be offensive, but stop trying to tie it back to racism. i can tell a lot of people can't conceive of nigger NOT being racist, but if that's the way you look at it don't watch streamers that use it as a normal insult.
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On May 04 2012 18:18 Stiluz wrote:Congratulations lynch mob on TL, you just screwed over yet another person from our community. First Orb, now Destiny. Who's next on the list, IdrA? He seems pretty controversial and BM  Or maybe Day9? People like to talk about how great the SC2 community is, but the lynch mob proves them at our community is still as immature and prone to crap like any other.
I guess you can say its immature for people to be so rash with stuff like this. But how can you not say it is immature to EXTREMELY EASILY not say a handful of words. Not because you think they are wrong, but to just to avoid the risk of having to deal with the social drama and consequences that goes along with it. If someone wants to soapbox thier beliefs, fine, but dont complain if your standing out doesn't always recieve only applause. Destiny is a smart guy, and probably knew very well what he was doing and what risks he was taking. On one hand it probably contributed to his viewership rise, on the other it also lead it his quantic split.
You can't say he didn't put himself out there and basically dared to get hit....
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On May 04 2012 18:22 adrenaLinG wrote:
If you are using racist language, you are a racist. You can be donating millions of dollars to Latino charities but if you're going around calling people "spics" you are still a racist, end of story. Whether you like it or not, you are using language that offends a lot of people even if you don't find it offensive, or if destiny's white knights don't find it offensive. Destiny's viewers of course hold themselves to high internet standards here. Especially, as I have already mentioned, they are white straight male nerds sitting alone at home on the computer and totally beyond language being offensive and racist. What's the big deal anyway?
rac·ist
noun
1.
a person who believes in racism, the doctrine that a certain human race is superior to any or all others.
Saying it is irrelevant to being a racist unless you believe in it. End of story. Probably 95% (depending on your sample) of the people who say racist words aren't really racist. Still mean and insensitive for sure, though.
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On May 04 2012 18:23 TheDraken wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:51 Myrkskog wrote:On May 04 2012 17:45 FairForever wrote:This context is slightly different than using the word as a reference to an African American. I think the meaning of my point was understood. So it's okay if it's not used in a racist context, or at least not as bad? Do you believe that Destiny genuinely hates the Korean people? And you can say white/black people, those words aren't African Americanlisted yet. see, this is the problem right here. the word nigger used to not be an insult. it was just what they were called, and what they called themselves. then nigger became insulting, so we started to call them black people. then black people got offensive, so we started to call them colored people. then colored people got offensive, so we started to call them african(american) how many words do you want to lace with negative connotations before you're satisfied? it's ridiculous that in america people have to lower their voice when they mention someone is black. so they're black. who fucking cares. it's not meant to be tied to racism. same thing with nigger. it's an insult, it's meant to be offensive, but stop trying to tie it back to racism. i can tell a lot of people can't conceive of nigger NOT being racist, but if that's the way you look at it don't watch streamers that use it as a normal insult.
Did you know the word "faggot" used to refer to a bundle of sticks? and in the UK fags refer to cigarettes, so people go around saying if they can "bum a fag"? OMG LOL right!!!
Smarten up.
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God it feels like people are force to watch his stream or something if you don't like how he acts don't watch it. Racist or not everyone is racist i don't care who you are. 90% of the community needs to grow up no one is forcing you to watch anything listen to anyone. I wish destiny the best of luck in the future i hope you find a team.
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First off, I strongly oppose the use of racist language no matter "how it was meant", because it always uses and feeds the same old stereotypes that need to be eradicated.
However I am really upset with those mobs directly messaging sponsors about these things. Our society has developed official channels like laws and courts for good reason. People don't get hanged on a tree anymore for good reason.
The mentality behind shitting on official channels (like team management, once again in this case) and applying archaic violent self justice is pretty much the same, and simply uncivilised.
Of course there might be cases that a team wants to profit from the attention that controversial subjects of the community get. But then go hammer team management with your complaints. The team should have a fair chance to sort things out before people go for their financial lifelines. The worst criminals accused at court have more chance to defend themselves than teams in this community at this point in time.
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Canada11603 Posts
On May 04 2012 18:21 BXiT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:19 motbob wrote:On May 04 2012 18:15 BXiT wrote:On May 04 2012 18:12 Feidspar wrote:
The TL community is a cancer and I'm terrified for the future of starcraft if these nazis are in charge.
Racism is not okay, but sexism is? And homophobia is also acceptable? If not, better ban and un-list 90% of all pro players. Who gets to cherrypick which insults are fine and dandy? Hypocrits.
Oh. And how about banning the idiot mods who instigate others by calling them pussies and retards. I agree! If TL wants to be proved trustworthy admins and mods, it should happen! EDIT : LOL he is banned for that. WTF mods... wake up please! dear please. Sorry -_- I misinterpreted his post. I'm in the process of trying to get his ban reduced. Egg on my face. Thanks a lot! It's the first time I see that happen and it's great. But it's exactly why you should have some community control. A banned user can't interact anymore (even in private) and you can't count on other users to "save" you. Please at least consider it.
Other users can use website feedback and even a banned person can still pm a mod. I've had a couple people explain their post further and if it turns out I misinterpreted, then I pass it on to the Ban Adjustments. Other mods can also discuss if certain bans are overkill. We're not a bunch of stubborn lone rangers and we are open to feedback.
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On May 04 2012 18:23 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:21 BXiT wrote:On May 04 2012 18:19 motbob wrote:On May 04 2012 18:15 BXiT wrote:On May 04 2012 18:12 Feidspar wrote:
The TL community is a cancer and I'm terrified for the future of starcraft if these nazis are in charge.
Racism is not okay, but sexism is? And homophobia is also acceptable? If not, better ban and un-list 90% of all pro players. Who gets to cherrypick which insults are fine and dandy? Hypocrits.
Oh. And how about banning the idiot mods who instigate others by calling them pussies and retards. I agree! If TL wants to be proved trustworthy admins and mods, it should happen! EDIT : LOL he is banned for that. WTF mods... wake up please! dear please. Sorry -_- I misinterpreted his post. I'm in the process of trying to get his ban reduced. Egg on my face. Thanks a lot! It's the first time I see that happen and it's great. But it's exactly why you should have some community control. A banned user can't interact anymore (even in private) and you can't count on other users to "save" you. Please at least consider it. Banned users can PM the mod that banned them, actually. Appeals are made all the time and they're granted pretty much every time the mod has made a mistake.
Sure but you are judge and judged in this scenario. You can't assure that somebody are always impartial and recognize his mistakes. That is why dealing with that should be handle in a different way. In particular for a community of this importance.
Anyway, thanks again
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On May 04 2012 18:24 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:18 Stiluz wrote:Congratulations lynch mob on TL, you just screwed over yet another person from our community. First Orb, now Destiny. Who's next on the list, IdrA? He seems pretty controversial and BM Or maybe Day9? People like to talk about how great the SC2 community is, but the lynch mob proves them at our community is still as immature and prone to crap like any other. I guess you can say its immature for people to be so rash with stuff like this. But how can you not say it is immature to EXTREMELY EASILY not say a handful of words. Not because you think they are wrong, but to just to avoid the risk of having to deal with the social drama and consequences that goes along with it. If someone wants to soapbox thier beliefs, fine, but dont complain if your standing out doesn't always recieve only applause. Destiny is a smart guy, and probably knew very well what he was doing and what risks he was taking. On one hand it probably contributed to his viewership rise, on the other it also lead it his quantic split. You can't say he didn't put himself out there and basically dared to get hit....
The problem with a community having any power at all is that they just follow the most popular opinion at the time. That's what's toxic.
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On May 04 2012 18:18 Stiluz wrote:Congratulations lynch mob on TL, you just screwed over yet another person from our community. First Orb, now Destiny. Who's next on the list, IdrA? He seems pretty controversial and BM Or maybe Day9? People like to talk about how great the SC2 community is, but the lynch mob proves them at our community is still as immature and prone to crap like any other.
Your completely missing the point. Both Orb and Destiny were "lynched" because of their actions not because their some sort of angels that did absolutely nothing. The community didn't "screw them over", it was the players lack of self control which "screwed themselves" from the community.
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Such a shame, I hate how the people most concerned with 'saving e-sports' are the ones who viciously attack players and e-mail sponsors every time any small thing happens. Who do you think is really doing the damage here?
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On May 04 2012 18:22 adrenaLinG wrote:
If you are using racist language, you are a racist. You can be donating millions of dollars to Latino charities but if you're going around calling people "spics" you are still a racist, end of story. Whether you like it or not, you are using language that offends a lot of people even if you don't find it offensive, or if destiny's white knights don't find it offensive. Destiny's viewers of course hold themselves to high internet standards here. Especially, as I have already mentioned, since they are white straight male nerds sitting alone at home on the computer and totally beyond language being offensive and racist. What's the big deal anyway?
So when black people call each other the n-word are they racist? I know it doesn't really relate to this Destiny stuff, I'm just curious.
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I can't believe this. I've just lost a huge amount of faith in the community.
For the record, I don't have anything against TL moderation. It's their site and they do what they want. I didn't like Destiny's ban, however I don't feel it wasn't justified (read the 10 commandments thing). This is TL's site, if they've had the success they've had up until now it's for a reason.
As to what I think about the language, read here. It's beating a dead horse so you can skip it if you want.
+ Show Spoiler +For the record, I have absolutely no problem with Destiny's racial slurs. At the beginning, when he started using them, I felt that it was too much and I was put off by it. However, Destiny explained his arguments about the use of his language ( here is a youtube video of Destiny having a discussion about this). I then started not minding, because Destiny's arguments made sense. I advise anyone who has a problem with Destiny's language to watch the video. If they're going to have such strong feelings about such a matter than they owe it to everyone to at least listen to a counter-argument. Not doing so is just fucking stale balderdash. Again, it shocks and appalls me that anyone would go so far just to hurt a player who hasn't done anything other than use "offensive" words. It's just incredibly stupid. Let's imagine that we had a homosexual SC2 pro player. Let's just imagine this. Anyone can be incredibly offensive to this player and personally attack him without using a single offensive word. I've put an example in spoilers just to express my point: + Show Spoiler +you little piece of dirt. you're a dog that's what you are, you and whoever you're with. going about, spreading diseases with your strangeness, it's un-natural, it's disgusting, that's all you are. i sincerely hope you and your kind die painful deaths from HIV, the less of you there are the better See what I did there? Not a single swear word was even used yet I said something much more offensive than Destiny has ever said on stream. Now let's take this example: http://i.imgur.com/y8F8n.jpgImagine if instead, it had said "the absolute epitome of being a skill-less fucking fucking idiot, fuck off you dog" If that's what had been said there would have been none of this pointless drama, even though both of expressions mean the same thing. The one thing that annoys me is that no one is going to really change their mind of the issue, yet they're going to refuse to at least hear the other side of the argument. I don't want people to change their minds, I want people to agree to disagree. I'm pretty sure that no one who's faced Destiny on the ladder has gone off and killed themselves or broke down to tears after Destiny flamed them.
What does disgust the shit out of me are all these hate-driven anti-fans. It absolutely blows my mind. The issue was really a trivial one, and internet white knights just blew things completely out of proportion. Completely out of proportion. I'm shocked and appalled that the community would do such a thing. If you dislike someone then just leave him be. I don't understand why you'd do anything else. Hating a player is against the very principle of esports. The goal here is watch games, be fan-boys, enjoy playing the game, having fun.
I dislike Cruncher, that doesn't mean I go out and insult him every single turn I get. That doesn't mean I jump on an occasion I get to email his sponsor and taint his reputation. I was pissed off when he eliminated Idra and Mondragon with cheesy builds, I didn't' muck the forums because I was butt-hurt. I don't go on his stream and insult him. People who have that kind of behavior are basically taking a nice colorful shit on what esports represent. I'm glad TL moderates them.
Furthermore, the community isn't here to police players or go on witch hunts. If a player is doing something that could be considered distasteful, the best thing to do is to just email the team (in private, with a calm and reasonable email). The absolute worst thing to do is post about and complain about publicly so that all the hateful idiots can rally around and muck up the forums for reasons that are iffy at best. If warden had a problem with Destiny he should have taken it up to Destiny or Quantic, not start this concentration of idiocy. Immature, that's what it was. Worst part is that I've learned a huge amount of stuff from Destiny, both about Zerg and other topics, yet I've never even heard of warden before this incident. I wonder who actually contributed more to the community? And this is how he's thanked.
The worst part is that they didn't even harm Destiny as much as they hoped, but they nearly dealt huge, hurtful blows to Quantic (and all of the good players on Quantic's team). It's appalling. Appalling. I can't repeat this word enough because that's what this situation is. I expected something more intelligent from the community but apparently there's still this hateful part of it that does a lot of damage for almost no good, except provoking this dumb drama. Idra's rivalries are good drama, they interest people. This is fucking retarded.
My respect for Destiny sky-rocketed when he left the team because it would be best for everyone. I'll continue to support him more than ever now. But the community just took a huge nose-dive in my esteem.
Edit: Now I feel bad for having posted this because no one is even going to read it, preferring to justify their shitty actions with one-liners about how good they are for the community.
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wow fuckin bs everyone is such a sensitive little bitch these days.... good luck with your shit destiny
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 04 2012 18:25 ReturnStroke wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:22 adrenaLinG wrote:
If you are using racist language, you are a racist. You can be donating millions of dollars to Latino charities but if you're going around calling people "spics" you are still a racist, end of story. Whether you like it or not, you are using language that offends a lot of people even if you don't find it offensive, or if destiny's white knights don't find it offensive. Destiny's viewers of course hold themselves to high internet standards here. Especially, as I have already mentioned, they are white straight male nerds sitting alone at home on the computer and totally beyond language being offensive and racist. What's the big deal anyway? rac·ist noun 1. a person who believes in racism, the doctrine that a certain human race is superior to any or all others. Saying it is irrelevant to being a racist unless you believe in it. End of story. Probably 95% (depending on your sample) of the people who say racist words aren't really racist. Still mean and insensitive for sure, though.
nig·ger [nig-er]
noun
1.
Slang: Extremely Disparaging and Offensive .
a.
a black person.
See if I call people niggers and they aren't black, I can't be racist because I'm just using it incorrectly! Not racist!
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On May 04 2012 18:25 adrenaLinG wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:23 TheDraken wrote:On May 04 2012 17:51 Myrkskog wrote:On May 04 2012 17:45 FairForever wrote:This context is slightly different than using the word as a reference to an African American. I think the meaning of my point was understood. So it's okay if it's not used in a racist context, or at least not as bad? Do you believe that Destiny genuinely hates the Korean people? And you can say white/black people, those words aren't African Americanlisted yet. see, this is the problem right here. the word nigger used to not be an insult. it was just what they were called, and what they called themselves. then nigger became insulting, so we started to call them black people. then black people got offensive, so we started to call them colored people. then colored people got offensive, so we started to call them african(american) how many words do you want to lace with negative connotations before you're satisfied? it's ridiculous that in america people have to lower their voice when they mention someone is black. so they're black. who fucking cares. it's not meant to be tied to racism. same thing with nigger. it's an insult, it's meant to be offensive, but stop trying to tie it back to racism. i can tell a lot of people can't conceive of nigger NOT being racist, but if that's the way you look at it don't watch streamers that use it as a normal insult. Did you know the word "faggot" used to refer to a bundle of sticks? and in the UK fags refer to cigarettes, so people go around saying if they can "bum a fag"? OMG LOL right!!! Smarten up.
oh. thank you for proving my point.
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On May 04 2012 18:29 adrenaLinG wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:25 ReturnStroke wrote:On May 04 2012 18:22 adrenaLinG wrote:
If you are using racist language, you are a racist. You can be donating millions of dollars to Latino charities but if you're going around calling people "spics" you are still a racist, end of story. Whether you like it or not, you are using language that offends a lot of people even if you don't find it offensive, or if destiny's white knights don't find it offensive. Destiny's viewers of course hold themselves to high internet standards here. Especially, as I have already mentioned, they are white straight male nerds sitting alone at home on the computer and totally beyond language being offensive and racist. What's the big deal anyway? rac·ist noun 1. a person who believes in racism, the doctrine that a certain human race is superior to any or all others. Saying it is irrelevant to being a racist unless you believe in it. End of story. Probably 95% (depending on your sample) of the people who say racist words aren't really racist. Still mean and insensitive for sure, though. nig·ger [nig-er] noun 1. Slang: Extremely Disparaging and Offensive . a. a black person. See if I call people niggers and they aren't black, I can't be racist because I'm just using it incorrectly! Not racist!
Unless you believe one race is superior to another, then by definition you can't be a racist no. But it's the context that makes a word racist, not the word itself.
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I truly believe the SC2 community are pretty low and sad for emailing sponsors and calling out another player. If people keep crying about players saying "slur and racial" words then go watch the kids channel. If i was a top player i wouldnt even stream, why because if i stream and accidently used a "bad" word all these pitch forks of random people who dont even follow the scene would cry. I followed CS 1.6 for the longest time i never seen any body in the community cry over things said over a match or even a scrim, the community actually tried to help it grow not kill it. After following SC2 i truly believe this community needs to grow a pair and quit crying over every little thing that happens over somebody elses stream, everyone knows what kinda things Destiny does so if your gonna post shit on Teamliquid.net over nothing your just a narc. Another sad day for the SC2 Community.
Bet somebody there life that another poster will post a thread in less then a month trying to destroy another players career. thats how sad its gotten. I dont even watch destinys stream or care for it but i care for the SC2 Scene to actually say something and not try to ruin anothers players career.
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