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Keep this civil, guys |
On May 05 2012 06:34 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:24 Tehs Tehklz wrote:On May 05 2012 06:22 Dosey wrote:On May 05 2012 06:16 BoZiffer wrote:On May 05 2012 06:12 Dosey wrote:On May 05 2012 06:08 BoZiffer wrote:On May 05 2012 05:30 Chocobo wrote:On May 05 2012 05:18 BlueLanterna wrote:On May 05 2012 05:15 Chocobo wrote:On May 05 2012 05:09 BlueLanterna wrote:
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You're not saying it's a bad thing that a high profile streamer who used frequent ignorant hate speech is no longer on a professional team are you? Why do you believe that no gamer who uses bad language should be allowed on a professional team? Why are professional gamers on teams required to conform to your standards while you get to be the internet morality police? Why do you get to have control over others? You're making a strawman argument as well. I never said gamers who use bad language shouldn't be allowed on a professional team, I said those who use hate speech, even in jest, shouldn't be supported. LOL "Why do you get to have control over others?" It has nothing to do with what I as an individual wants, it's what society deems as acceptable. I completely agree that they ----SHOULDN'T BE SUPPORTED----. That is exactly what should have happened to Destiny. All of the people offended by his language should have stopped watching his games and stopped tuning in to his stream and stopped supporting him in any way. But there is an enormous, gigantic difference between "shouldn't be supported" and "should be forced to conform to our standards or else we're going to fuck with him". A large portion of society has deemed Destiny's actions to be unacceptable. Great. That's completely fine. But since when is it OK to get back at him by going to his employer and trying to get him fired? Since when is it ok to demand that he conform to your rules, or else you're going to take revenge against him? That is called "trying to have control over others" and there's no way to deny that. I find it to be extremely inappropriate and completely uncalled for. The correct course of action is "if you don't like it, don't watch it" but that fact is being overlooked by many people. Scenario question: Destiny is a representative of Team Quantic when he streams. He is, in effect "working" for them at that moment in time, right? Maybe he's not contractually, not sure. Lets say I go into a Best Buy and the salesman makes an insulting/racist/demeaning remark to me while he is actively employed. What actions do I have to seek resolution? I can talk to the individual - which may correct the problem on the spot. I can speak to his Supervisors. Now whether or not I demand to the Supervisor for him to be fired or not, or just counseled on the issue, is really up to the employer. I would say that complaining about something that isn't acceptable is fine action. That is all that an individual can actively do. Its up the employers to make the final call. That scenario is totally irrelevant. Best Buy employee is selling a product and representing a company who just sells products. Destiny is essentially working in entertainment. His job is to obtain viewers and keep them entertained for as long as he is on air. Destiny is selling himself. If you don't like his sales pitch, you can go elsewhere, no? Ok, then we'll try another... what about Kobe Bryant using derogatory terms towards homosexuals in the middle of a basketball game on national television. Kobe is selling entertainment, yet the NBA fined him 100,000 bills because of the insensitive remarks. No different. Final discipline up to the employer. Another poor example. In this situation, Kobe holds all the cards and received a simple slap on the wrist. $100,000.00? That's a joke to him. If you want Destiny punished in this sense, it already happened. He was removed from the list of featured streams. That is a MAJOR fine in this community especially considering a vast majority of his income comes from such. Then complain to Quantic and to their sponsors. They decided the punishment. People here just said they would not support a company that supports the wanton use of racial slurs. And that is where these self-important douchebags are abusing how new the e-sports scene is. In the case of South Park, South Park holds all the cards. If they are "cut off" they go elsewhere and take the ratings with them. What sponsors don't realize is how popular Destiny and his stream were. They see a few complaints stating they will never purchase their product and it gets exceedingly exaggerated. (Refer to the FCC episode of Family Guy) and flip shit. From a business standpoint. Would you sponsor a show (because that is what this is, a show) That is watched daily by 10,000 people? Of course you would. What if, of the 10,000 viewers, 1,000 of them hate the show and now refuse to buy your product? Do you continue to air the show and keep the remaining 9,000 viewers happy and retain the ability to sell your product to them? Or do you take said show off the air to cater to the 1,000 and lose your other 9,000 viewers/customers as well. Pretty sure this is a no-brainer.
You think companies just give money to people without knowing how popular they are? That is what you need to realize, man. Far more people find Destiny's behavior offensive than watch his stream.
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On May 05 2012 06:20 m1rk3 wrote:
Me too, thanked them for sponsoring him and hoped they would reconsider one day 
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On May 05 2012 06:33 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:12 Pudge_172 wrote:On May 05 2012 06:06 BlueLanterna wrote:On May 05 2012 06:05 jxx wrote:
Everyone defending this guy, I would ask: What would happen if Destiny were a football/basketball player or whatever, imagine him behaving like that in a professional environment. What would happen?
I bet everyone here wants e-sports to be taken seriously, but when it comes to professionalism and being responsible people seem to forget about it, and then they bitch about not being taken seriously. IF YOU DONT LIKE IT TURN OFF THE STREAM So I guess the black people who didn't like being lynched should have moved north? This is one of the worst comments I have ever seen on an internet forum. Seriously, you should be ashamed of posting that.
I don't see what was wrong with the comment. People are arguing that if you don't like Destiny's stream you shouldn't watch it. I just compared that in an extreme way that if black people didn't like being lynched that they should have moved north.
Turning off the stream/moving north don't solve the problem. The stream still exists and folks would still be getting lynched.
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Destiny called someone a word, which causes no actual harm, so a few "enlightened" people did all that they could to destroy Destiny's income, which causes actual harm.
If people do not behave in a way that we find acceptable, even if that behavior has no effect on us whatsoever, we will cause them actual harm until they conform to our personal code of what is and is not acceptable. Is that pretty much the sum of it?
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On May 05 2012 06:38 Pudge_172 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:33 Chocobo wrote:On May 05 2012 06:12 Pudge_172 wrote:On May 05 2012 06:06 BlueLanterna wrote:On May 05 2012 06:05 jxx wrote:
Everyone defending this guy, I would ask: What would happen if Destiny were a football/basketball player or whatever, imagine him behaving like that in a professional environment. What would happen?
I bet everyone here wants e-sports to be taken seriously, but when it comes to professionalism and being responsible people seem to forget about it, and then they bitch about not being taken seriously. IF YOU DONT LIKE IT TURN OFF THE STREAM So I guess the black people who didn't like being lynched should have moved north? This is one of the worst comments I have ever seen on an internet forum. Seriously, you should be ashamed of posting that. I don't see what was wrong with the comment. People are arguing that if you don't like Destiny's stream you shouldn't watch it. I just compared that in an extreme way that if black people didn't like being lynched that they should have moved north. Turning off the stream/moving north don't solve the problem. The stream still exists and folks would still be getting lynched.
It was a terrible comment. If moving up north was as easy as hitting CTRL+W....
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On May 05 2012 06:29 Tehs Tehklz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:26 Chocobo wrote:On May 05 2012 06:02 Tehs Tehklz wrote:On May 05 2012 05:56 Chocobo wrote:On May 05 2012 05:48 Tehs Tehklz wrote:On May 05 2012 05:45 Chocobo wrote:On May 05 2012 05:42 IMABUNNEH wrote:
Apparently having morals, and pursuing your morals to a conclusion, is now looked down on as being self righteous or elitist? YES, damn it. You don't get to force others to conform to your beliefs! Yo, no one forced him to do anything. How can you say that? I mean... no, no one went to his home and physically forced him to things. But this whole situation is about people attempting to force him to comply with their wishes, or else face whatever consequences they are able to impose on him. If I point a gun at you and demand your wallet, would you say that I'm not forcing you to give me your wallet, because you still get to choose your actions in that situation? Let's not turn this into an argument of semantics. Perhaps my response should have been "You don't get to attempt to force others to conform with your beliefs." Is that clearer? So, someone pointed a gun at Destiny and said "say 'gook' one more time, motherfucker. I dare you!" No, man. They informed him sponsors of his behavior - HIS behavior - and his sponsors apparently voiced their displeasure to his team. If you think asking someone not use racial slurs is the same as forcibly compelling a person to abandon their morals in favor of yours, then I really do not know what to say to you. Sigh... no, a gun was not literally involved. I was using an analogy, please google the term and learn how they are used. They informed the sponsors of Destiny's behavior as a threat, demanding that something be done about it or else financial damage or PR problems would take place. This was done as an attempt to control Destiny's language and actions during his stream, and to punish him if he does not change. They did not ask Destiny to stop making racial slurs (not that he'd listen). They made threats and then had him punished for not conforming to their demands. I do believe that this is a form of compelling someone to follow your moral code instead of their own, and I'm not sure how it can be seen otherwise. The question is, do you find that kind of behavior to be morally acceptable? Personally I find it to be considerably worse than occasionally spewing inappropriate language on the internet. Except these two situations are nothing alike. Your analogy was about equal to: parents are to grounded as Stalin is to gulag. That is type of analogy that you are putting forth and it is nonsense.
Erm... actually, the analogy you just made is perfectly legitimate. There is no rule that says analogies must contain situations that have the same "oh shit this is a really serious lifechanging situation" level.
All they did was use their own freedom of speech to express that they would not support a company that supports the use of racial slurs. That is not even remotely close to forcing anyone to do anything.
"Act how I want, or else I'm going to get you in trouble" is an attempt to force someone to do what you want. It is pure political spin to say "hey I'm just using free speech here" while ignoring the fact that you're using your speech in order to either control or punish things that you disapprove of.
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Just FYI to anyone with the wrong facts, the Quantic team sponsorship is small stuff compared to his income, popularity, and publicity from his personal stream.
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On May 05 2012 06:33 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:12 Pudge_172 wrote:On May 05 2012 06:06 BlueLanterna wrote:On May 05 2012 06:05 jxx wrote:
Everyone defending this guy, I would ask: What would happen if Destiny were a football/basketball player or whatever, imagine him behaving like that in a professional environment. What would happen?
I bet everyone here wants e-sports to be taken seriously, but when it comes to professionalism and being responsible people seem to forget about it, and then they bitch about not being taken seriously. IF YOU DONT LIKE IT TURN OFF THE STREAM So I guess the black people who didn't like being lynched should have moved north? This is one of the worst comments I have ever seen on an internet forum. Seriously, you should be ashamed of posting that.
Thanks for making me read that.
Puts things in perspective.
Im out gg
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On May 05 2012 06:33 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:12 Pudge_172 wrote:On May 05 2012 06:06 BlueLanterna wrote:On May 05 2012 06:05 jxx wrote:
Everyone defending this guy, I would ask: What would happen if Destiny were a football/basketball player or whatever, imagine him behaving like that in a professional environment. What would happen?
I bet everyone here wants e-sports to be taken seriously, but when it comes to professionalism and being responsible people seem to forget about it, and then they bitch about not being taken seriously. IF YOU DONT LIKE IT TURN OFF THE STREAM So I guess the black people who didn't like being lynched should have moved north? This is one of the worst comments I have ever seen on an internet forum. Seriously, you should be ashamed of posting that.
Dude, that is the same type of analogy you made. You said this incident is the same as forcing someone to change their morals.
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On May 05 2012 06:30 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:10 Tehs Tehklz wrote:On May 05 2012 06:08 Chocobo wrote:On May 05 2012 05:53 IMABUNNEH wrote:On May 05 2012 05:45 Chocobo wrote:On May 05 2012 05:42 IMABUNNEH wrote:
Apparently having morals, and pursuing your morals to a conclusion, is now looked down on as being self righteous or elitist? YES, damn it. You don't get to force others to conform to your beliefs! Nobody forced Destiny to conform to their beliefs. That's why he parted ways with Quantic. Because he WON'T conform with what other people believe. I respect that he is his own man, if someone doesn't like what he does, he doesn't give a shit. Heh, yeah... honestly I had a pretty low opinion of Destiny before this. I had little respect for him, but I found his stream very entertaining. Sort of like watching Cartman from South Park in real life, plus I get to learn and improve my zerg game. But I've gained respect for him, seeing how he has handled this situation. But if you don't feel what he is doing is appropriate, and you feel strongly enough, then why should you sit down and shut up? Destiny is a supporter of free speech obviously, so he is by proxy a supporter of other people having free speech, including the ability to speak out against what they feel is wrong. Free speech is not the issue here. Obviously every form of speech used in this entire situation is legal and everyone was within their rights to speak it. The issue (to me) is about this question: what should you do if you disapprove of someone else's actions? The primary two options here are A) ignore him, stop supporting him, avoid him, have nothing to do with him, and B) demand that he change, demand that his employer exert their power over him, essentially threatening him with harm if he doesn't comply and following through on that threat when he refuses. I strongly believe that A is the right course of action, and that B is uncalled for and highly inappropriate. They did not demand that he change. They simply informed his sponsors that they could not, in good conscience, give their money to a company that supports the use of racial slurs in this manner. That is it. They "stopped supporting him". That is not what it means to stop supporting him. Not supporting him = stop watching his stream, stop watching anything he is a part of. Making threats and following through on them in an attempt to control someone's actions and force punishment on them when they don't comply... that is something else entirely. Something that I find morally reprehensible and extremely inappropriate. If I think you're an unpleasant person, I will stop having anything to do with you. I will not try to control you and I will not try to make your employer fire you.
This post speaks the truth. "Conform or I will bring you down" seems to be the theme surrounding Destiny.
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On May 05 2012 06:38 Bulldog654 wrote:
Destiny called someone a word, which causes no actual harm, so a few "enlightened" people did all that they could to destroy Destiny's income, which causes actual harm.
If people do not behave in a way that we find acceptable, even if that behavior has no effect on us whatsoever, we will cause them actual harm until they conform to our personal code of what is and is not acceptable. Is that pretty much the sum of it?
That's pretty much it, yea, but don't worry. It's for the greater good.
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i'll never understand why or how the community determines when to get the pitchforks out or to stay quiet.
Saying a racist term after a bad ladder game during a fit of rage- PITCHFORKS HOLY SHIT GET HIM!!!
An esports organization hosts a meme contest that encourages their forum members to berate their players, including gems like desrow is fat, and scarlett is a TRAP! (literally her head photoshopped onto a battlecruiser with 'it's a TRAP!' written on the image' - no big deal.
My fucking brain.. jesus, what in the fuck, ouch.
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On May 05 2012 06:34 ProBot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:16 BlueLanterna wrote:On May 05 2012 06:14 ProBot wrote:
"On May 05 2012 04:28 Black knight wrote:
Get Idra fired. He called both July and Ensnare faggots, amongst everyone on his stream, and constantly calls people retards, even in live showmatches.
Get Huk fired. He tweeted "nigga".
Get Incontrol fired. He ridiculed a porn star about her profession to the point of tears on the most prestigious public sc2 podcast.
Go ahead, white knights. Do your fucking jobs.
User was banned for this post."
What i want to know is why Black Knight got Banned for bringing up valid points. If we're going to start lynching bitches for inappropriate language and behaviour might as well get them all to stay consistent right? Idra has been banned multiple times and reprimanded by the owner of EG, Incontrol has not said anything on the level of directly calling an asian person a "gook" on stream, and Huk saying "nigga" is not on the same level as "nigger" (as much as I don't like that word either). Grow up. Grow up? I can almost guarantee I've done a lot more "growing up" than you. But just so i read it right it's ok to hold a standard of professionalism to one player but not the rest? So making homophobic remarks and harassing someone to the point of tears over what they do for a living is ok, but saying nigger isn't? Just so I know what you believe is acceptable and what isn't. I think your the one that needs some growing up sir.
So you think making fun of someone's job is on the same level as calling someone a "gook"? Good job proving your own maturity there.
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On May 05 2012 06:39 Tehs Tehklz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:33 Chocobo wrote:On May 05 2012 06:12 Pudge_172 wrote:On May 05 2012 06:06 BlueLanterna wrote:On May 05 2012 06:05 jxx wrote:
Everyone defending this guy, I would ask: What would happen if Destiny were a football/basketball player or whatever, imagine him behaving like that in a professional environment. What would happen?
I bet everyone here wants e-sports to be taken seriously, but when it comes to professionalism and being responsible people seem to forget about it, and then they bitch about not being taken seriously. IF YOU DONT LIKE IT TURN OFF THE STREAM So I guess the black people who didn't like being lynched should have moved north? This is one of the worst comments I have ever seen on an internet forum. Seriously, you should be ashamed of posting that. Dude, that is the same type of analogy you made. You said this incident is the same as forcing someone to change their morals.
Two wrongs don't make a right. And I know you've heard this before.
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On May 05 2012 06:39 StarStrider wrote:
Just FYI to anyone with the wrong facts, the Quantic team sponsorship is small stuff compared to his income, popularity, and publicity from his personal stream.
he really fucked himself then when he took a shit on the tl.net website/mods and got himself banned from the sidebar.
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On May 05 2012 06:35 Smat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:27 Pudge_172 wrote:
What shocks me most is how many people are supportive of the use of blatantly offensive/racists speech. While one can legally use such speech, one must also face the consequences of using such speech.
I would hate to see the young people watching he stream go up to several fine African Americans and call them the n word.
People need to learn to be civil when dealing with each other. Hate speech is not funny. Hate speech is not entertaining. Well it obviously is funny and entertaining to a lot of people. Different strokes.
If people are truly entertained by hate speech, then they need to grow up quickly. Hate speech is never entertaining and never funny. That's FACT.
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lol this community is getting disgusting...seriously? grow up.
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On May 05 2012 06:38 Pudge_172 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:33 Chocobo wrote:On May 05 2012 06:12 Pudge_172 wrote:On May 05 2012 06:06 BlueLanterna wrote:On May 05 2012 06:05 jxx wrote:
Everyone defending this guy, I would ask: What would happen if Destiny were a football/basketball player or whatever, imagine him behaving like that in a professional environment. What would happen?
I bet everyone here wants e-sports to be taken seriously, but when it comes to professionalism and being responsible people seem to forget about it, and then they bitch about not being taken seriously. IF YOU DONT LIKE IT TURN OFF THE STREAM So I guess the black people who didn't like being lynched should have moved north? This is one of the worst comments I have ever seen on an internet forum. Seriously, you should be ashamed of posting that. I don't see what was wrong with the comment. People are arguing that if you don't like Destiny's stream you shouldn't watch it. I just compared that in an extreme way that if black people didn't like being lynched that they should have moved north. Turning off the stream/moving north don't solve the problem. The stream still exists and folks would still be getting lynched.
It's the classic "blaming the victim" justification that basement nerds crave.
Insulted by racist phrases thrown on stream? Turn off the chat.
Don't want to get raped going down the street? Stop wearing slutty clothing.
They knew there was gonna be offensive language, given the disclaimer!
She knew there she was gonna get attention, given her dress!
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On May 05 2012 06:41 pt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:39 Tehs Tehklz wrote:On May 05 2012 06:33 Chocobo wrote:On May 05 2012 06:12 Pudge_172 wrote:On May 05 2012 06:06 BlueLanterna wrote:On May 05 2012 06:05 jxx wrote:
Everyone defending this guy, I would ask: What would happen if Destiny were a football/basketball player or whatever, imagine him behaving like that in a professional environment. What would happen?
I bet everyone here wants e-sports to be taken seriously, but when it comes to professionalism and being responsible people seem to forget about it, and then they bitch about not being taken seriously. IF YOU DONT LIKE IT TURN OFF THE STREAM So I guess the black people who didn't like being lynched should have moved north? This is one of the worst comments I have ever seen on an internet forum. Seriously, you should be ashamed of posting that. Dude, that is the same type of analogy you made. You said this incident is the same as forcing someone to change their morals. Two wrongs don't make a right. And I know you've heard this before.
What if u say that u where wrong with being wrong ^^(dubbel negative xD)
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On May 05 2012 06:39 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:29 Tehs Tehklz wrote:On May 05 2012 06:26 Chocobo wrote:On May 05 2012 06:02 Tehs Tehklz wrote:On May 05 2012 05:56 Chocobo wrote:On May 05 2012 05:48 Tehs Tehklz wrote:On May 05 2012 05:45 Chocobo wrote:On May 05 2012 05:42 IMABUNNEH wrote:
Apparently having morals, and pursuing your morals to a conclusion, is now looked down on as being self righteous or elitist? YES, damn it. You don't get to force others to conform to your beliefs! Yo, no one forced him to do anything. How can you say that? I mean... no, no one went to his home and physically forced him to things. But this whole situation is about people attempting to force him to comply with their wishes, or else face whatever consequences they are able to impose on him. If I point a gun at you and demand your wallet, would you say that I'm not forcing you to give me your wallet, because you still get to choose your actions in that situation? Let's not turn this into an argument of semantics. Perhaps my response should have been "You don't get to attempt to force others to conform with your beliefs." Is that clearer? So, someone pointed a gun at Destiny and said "say 'gook' one more time, motherfucker. I dare you!" No, man. They informed him sponsors of his behavior - HIS behavior - and his sponsors apparently voiced their displeasure to his team. If you think asking someone not use racial slurs is the same as forcibly compelling a person to abandon their morals in favor of yours, then I really do not know what to say to you. Sigh... no, a gun was not literally involved. I was using an analogy, please google the term and learn how they are used. They informed the sponsors of Destiny's behavior as a threat, demanding that something be done about it or else financial damage or PR problems would take place. This was done as an attempt to control Destiny's language and actions during his stream, and to punish him if he does not change. They did not ask Destiny to stop making racial slurs (not that he'd listen). They made threats and then had him punished for not conforming to their demands. I do believe that this is a form of compelling someone to follow your moral code instead of their own, and I'm not sure how it can be seen otherwise. The question is, do you find that kind of behavior to be morally acceptable? Personally I find it to be considerably worse than occasionally spewing inappropriate language on the internet. Except these two situations are nothing alike. Your analogy was about equal to: parents are to grounded as Stalin is to gulag. That is type of analogy that you are putting forth and it is nonsense. Erm... actually, the analogy you just made is perfectly legitimate. There is no rule that says analogies must contain situations that have the same "oh shit this is a really serious lifechanging situation" level. Show nested quote +All they did was use their own freedom of speech to express that they would not support a company that supports the use of racial slurs. That is not even remotely close to forcing anyone to do anything. "Act how I want, or else I'm going to get you in trouble" is an attempt to force someone to do what you want. It is pure political spin to say "hey I'm just using free speech here" while ignoring the fact that you're using your speech in order to either control or punish things that you disapprove of.
You seem to have no interest in actually dealing with the actual points being brought up. What's the course of action if you want to support Quantic and/or Razor but Destiny is the factor that prevents you. I feel like they wouldn't mind knowing, in fact I feel they'd prefer it over a number of people not buying their products when the fix was as simple as dropping/request a drop of a single player.
It's quite simply, "Act how I expect you to act or I won't pay you" from Razor and what the fuck is wrong with that? This is how employment works, this is how sponsorship works. Would you expect Razor to continue support regardless of whether a player's actions match up with their views? Regardless of whether a player is not doing what's expected of them? That's just idiotic.
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EPT
