|
Think twice before hitting post; this thread will be moderated for idiocy and useless posts. Consider this a warning. |
On May 02 2012 02:57 Derrida wrote:
I have emailed and twitted Quantic & Razer. I'm hoping TL takes action on this. We don't need jesters throwing around racial slurs.
And the amount of discourse justificatory posts are sickening in this thread. "You can say 'gook' without being racist." Well, good for you. However, people are still offended, and there will likely, or should be, consequences.
According to the bolded bit, there should be consequences because people get offended. Are you like, serious? If you are, then I would like you to know that your post greatly offends me, and there should be consequences.
|
I feel like we've had this discussion before. Nothing good really came out of it then either.
|
On May 02 2012 03:02 Jell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 03:00 Toastie wrote:
So, actually, I am against mailing sponsors,
but Destiny is acting like such a child with this. See the twitter message, see the replies joking and trying to make fun of everybody with arguments. Look at all his minions screaming at everybody.
I'm sorry ESports/Quantic. I am messaging Razer so Destiny gets hurt in the only place he really cares about - his income. You aren't hurting Destiny, you're hurting every other player on Quantic and their team. Destiny major income is his stream and his youtube. But if you're fine with hurting a team and a big e-sports sponsor go for it!
It'll only hurt Quantic if they continue to support his actions, in which case it'll be fully deserved.
|
Firstly, I support Destiny because he can articulate his point clearly and his logic is sound. Also, it is his stream. He can do what he wants on his stream. I feel that all progamers should have that freedom. Destiny knows when to be professional (read: censored) and when he can cut lose. We can give his intelligence a little more credit.
Secondly, I've been victim to a lot of verbal bullying in my life and I've grown up to understand that words only mean what you let them. To me, a nigger is any individual who is complacent with laziness and ignorance regardless of background and skin color. I've defined it that way because that was how I was raised to understand the word. You can teach a newborn that a banana is an apple, but that fruit doesn't change based on the name it is called. The word has no bearing on what the kind of fruit is in front of you.
Can we please take the time to become an educated, progressive community? I'm really tired of people bitching and getting up in arms about words when those aren't the real problem. You can take cough medicine but that doesn't cure the cause of the cough. It just helps you sleep.
If you really want to censor progamers, then I don't want to hear anything that could be offensive to anyone ever. That means complete silence. No typing, no talking. I can find a way to make anything anyone says offensive to someone.
We are all humans. Regardless of "race" or skin tone, we are the same speices. Because of that, I react with love to all my fellow humans. I see no real genetic differences that would account for us to split us into various groups with our human interaction. Personally, I do not stand for bullying of any kind. But you can use "nice" words to bully someone and "offensive" words in joking with people.
Destiny, I love you. You are a good dude. I love your stream because of your commentary, your advice to us in the lower leagues, your hilarious excitement in SC2 and League when making the big plays, and your skype conversations with your various friends, like Kyle. I don't see how anything you did was wrong since it happened on your stream. I know you aren't a racist. I'd like to say I can understand your intentions. I feel, based on how I've seen you at live events and your stream, that you are a good dude who I could be friends with had our paths crossed.
tl;dr version -
I'm asking that we, as a community, take a look at the bigger problems and not focus on things as meaningless as words. Words only mean what you allow them to mean and will only hurt you if you let them. Intention and context will always outweigh verbage. Peace and thigh grease.
|
I wish people cared this much about stuff that actually matters...
I think everyone's free to do or say whatever they want. I just don't understand why everyone is putting so much effort into something that I'd guess only 0.01% of them ACTUALLY care about.
Why does this have to blow up this much?
|
If you really have to contact anyone because you were "offended" while voluntarily watching a stream, don't let it be the sponsors. Seriously, anyone who wants this community to grow yet would complain to a SPONSOR over something like this is a hypocrite. This is literally one of the worst ways to go about this. Its just stupid.
|
If you're Razer and you get these emails, do you:
a) drop your lucrative sponsorship of multiple esports teams, including Quantic who currently has an extremely popular foreigner who has broken into the Korean scene?
or
b) request Quantic drop/suspend/reprimand Destiny?
Razer is not going to damage itself over this, that'd be bad business. Contacting them is not going to kill esports. Like people have said though, this sort of behavior being picked up on by a major publication or something of that ilk will actually do terrible terrible damage.
|
Ok. I have been through all of these pages and read pretty much all of the responses to the extent to where it was the same thing being repeated over and over again. There was however, one thing I noticed. People simply do not listen to each other, and are simply only concerned with getting upset and remaining upset instead of actively focusing on a solution. This to me, is the reason I would ban people or warn them, instead of warning or banning those mocking or pointing out the stupidity of the people demanding they are still upset over a few words being spoken on an online game, while those words said in music, movies, and other forms of media are totally fine. This; this is what offends me, and I have decided to go straight to the source which is Team Liquid. I would honestly like to say a sincere Fuck You. I was under the impression that a community was build upon equal opportunity for its members, and for someone like Destiny (whom I never really liked for reason that aren't at all related to him as a person) who has done quite a bit for said community, you allow such a minor problem be stirred into this. This is me taking InControl's advice, I'm taking it to the team instead of the sponsors. I know I'm getting perma-banned for this, because you honestly don't understand what you are doing and why it is so wrong. For a community I have invested so much time in, although not as much as others; you would imagine that I wouldn't be as passionate and concerned about this community's well-being. Well apparently I am one of the few here posting on TL who share Destiny's, and InControl's feelings that problem in the community should be resolved in the community. The fact this thread got past page 1 shows that TL really doesn't give a shit, and are only interesting in tearing down people like Orb and Destiny for saying words they don't agree with.
Although some of you will think TL has nothing to do with any of this; go look at who they warn, ban, and don't ban. They are tunneling the conversation, same guy have been ignoring everything but demanding we scream at sponsors and has never been warned or talked to. Special Fuck you added to SherlockTV, you think you are doing anything but helping the community? You should be removed from the community for being a disgrace to those who are actual fans on e-sports and Starcraft as a whole.
This has only made me more of a Destiny fan, and less of a TL fan. I will always love Starcraft, and that is all that matters.
User was temp banned for this post.
|
On May 02 2012 02:54 NoGasfOu wrote:
When Destiny was on Korean server someone told him that the most insulting thing a Korean could take is to be called "dog people". Destiny then used that phrase whole time because he realized that his usual bm words on NA ladder didn't have much effect on Korean players.
As a community, we have two options: One is to treat Starcraft as a random video game. The second is to make it as professional as possible and be proud of it. I actually don't play any other game anymore or follow any other community except Starcraft because I hoped that this community is different to others that I'd involved before moving into Starcraft.
I'm not disappointed in Destiny at all. Just disappointed in Quantic; because they're the one that makes decision whether to allow this to happen. I've always been a fan of Quantic and hope the don't fall down the path of a "personality and bm" team.
Is that true?
|
On May 02 2012 03:06 Jell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 03:04 FairForever wrote:On May 02 2012 03:02 Jell wrote:On May 02 2012 03:00 Toastie wrote:
So, actually, I am against mailing sponsors,
but Destiny is acting like such a child with this. See the twitter message, see the replies joking and trying to make fun of everybody with arguments. Look at all his minions screaming at everybody.
I'm sorry ESports/Quantic. I am messaging Razer so Destiny gets hurt in the only place he really cares about - his income. You aren't hurting Destiny, you're hurting every other player on Quantic and their team. Destiny major income is his stream and his youtube. But if you're fine with hurting a team and a big e-sports sponsor go for it! Not really, if Quantic finds they're going to get hurt they're going to drop Destiny in order to save a major sponsor. So if Quantic drops Destiny you're fine with everything? I thought the discussion was about racial slurs, but I guess you just want to hurt someone you don't like.
I don't dislike Destiny, I don't watch streams that often. I'm saying that people who are e-mailing Razer are seeing this as an endgame. And frankly, I don't blame them.
To me, I'm disappointed in Quantic for sponsoring a player such as Destiny. I'm not too familiar with his past actions although I know he has raged previously, but reading what he wrote on page 1, and his subsequent non-apologies, has bothered me significantly.
I would think that an appropriate action for Quantic at this point would be to seriously consider whether it is beneficial to have Destiny on its team. And one of the best ways to have that discussion is to bring it up with Razer.
|
On May 02 2012 03:07 GreenFaction wrote:
Personally I'm disgusted that not only are people upset at people being upset with destiny, but some people are actually happy about destiny's behavior. People who comment that characters like Destiny will always exist are right, but the conclusion to be drawn from that fact is not to leave them alone; the conclusion that needs to be drawn from that is that the rest of us need to stand up against these people.
To all those who think to themselves or comment publicly that it is not a big deal, you are wrong. It is a big deal. It is a much bigger deal than losing to an all in. It takes courage by the OP to post this, and we should be thankful the OP had the courage.
I don't understand the courage part lol
|
To be frank, destiny just needs to grow up. The only thing sadder than some of the shit that kid says is how he tries to justify it.
|
honestly... ive been complaining about this for a long time.. im tired of seeing faggot and nigger on a featured stream. TL, please remove him from featured till he cleans up his act. PLEASE!
|
On May 02 2012 03:03 KristianJS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 03:01 Leafren wrote:
sigh @ the white knights circle jerk
If you think Destiny swears/offends/whatever too much, don't watch his stream. It is that simple. If Destiny thinks it's OK to use words like nigger, gook, etc, on his stream that's his damn right. However distasteful you or I find it. Freedom of speech.
Personally I don't see why you would routinely use words like nigger or faggot, I'm one of those types that does go out of his way a bit to avoid offending people.
However, I'm not entirely convinced Destiny's behaviour is bad for esports, I think it has little to no effect on it at all. If we want esports to grow (soon to be the most cliché sentence), by definition it will include a wider variety of characters and viewpoints. Does any of the world's sports stop growing because players misbehave (in your view that is)? You're right, for esports to grow, we need to make sure we allow racism to be expressed freely by professionals. After all, we wouldn;t want to alienate racist viewers.
You said it right. Eliminating these acts is good for everyone, including e-Sports. This seems to be a much bigger problem in the 'foreign' community.
|
On May 02 2012 03:03 Stiluz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 02:52 KristianJS wrote:On May 02 2012 02:47 TheChostoProject wrote:
This is totally outrageous, If we want our community to grow we need to start thinking before talking/posting. We need to take special care on the selection of words we use when we want to insult/offend someone. I mean, we want them to feel bad but not too bad.
Here's a list of words we all should eliminate because some people's feelings might get hurt beyond our original intention of hurting them.
faggot - offensive to the gay community
nigger - offensive to the black community
gook - offensive to asians(?)
spic - offensive to hispanics
retarded - offensive to mentally challenged
rape - offensive to rape victims
snipe - offensive to war veterans
nuke - offensive to descendants of hiroshima survivors
grammar nazi - offensive to descendants of concentration camp survivors
murdered - offensive to people who've experienced death in family
cancer on the community - offensive to people who've suffered from cancer
Also, don't do drugs and eat vegetables, ok? The fact that you are comparing the offensiveness of the word "murdered" to people who've experienced murder in the family, with words like "faggot" and "nigger" is completely absurd. There were not millions of people enslaved and systematically abused on the basis that someone in their family had been murdered. People don't get beaten to death on account of them being a Hiroshima survivor. They do for "being a faggot". Actually, I've lived in Japan, and study Japan as part of my studies. Nuclear survivors from Hiroshima and Nagasaki are systematically discriminated in Japan, and talking about nukes as something casually, is absolutely not taken lightly in regards to people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. His points can be said to be valid, especially about nukes. I don't agree with the motion of "being offended" by specific words myself.
I think this also perfectly illustrates that something one person might find tame could be pretty offensive to someone else.
|
On May 02 2012 03:08 SnowSC2 wrote:
If you really have to contact anyone because you were "offended" while voluntarily watching a stream, don't let it be the sponsors. Seriously, anyone who wants this community to grow yet would complain to a SPONSOR over something like this is a hypocrite. This is literally one of the worst ways to go about this. Its just stupid.
The hypocrisy is wanting SC2 to be mainstream while promoting and encouraging behaviour that could never be acceptable in mainstream society.
|
On May 02 2012 02:53 sc14s wrote:
honestly this thread just needs to be closed. This is something destiny, and plenty of the 12-year-old population he represents online have always and will always do. Just deal with it, I don't think this warrants a thread.
And look, don't get me wrong I do not think that cussing people out in any manner is right and abusing the anonomity of the internet to do it is ridiculous but its not like you are witnessing anything out of the ordinary and going on a quest to get destiny for it doesn't make it better, i already do not watch his stream ever because of what he does.
edit: also dont fucking send e-mails to the sponsors. You will burn ALL of e-sports and not just destiny by irritating them. Talk to his godamn managment.
If professional gamers do not desire to be professional like their supporters demand, which they would be nothing without. Then I do believe they reserve the ability to complain about it. Infact it's very common and well accepted in society to outcast people who publicly use racial slurs. Despite this being the internet we hold them to the same standards. If Quantic doesn't stop him from acting like a child, which it shouldn't be their job to babysit him into manners. Then I feel it's fair for the community to report to their sponsors. Why should a team be sponsored and give their sponsor a bad name by not setting standards for their players? I am much less likely to support a sponsor that supports actions like racial slurs. Personally I feel they have the right to know that. However I don't care enough to contact them or quantic. I see why the community is upset and feel it's justified.
PS) For all you people who say "Get over it" Is that really going to solve anything? The masses are not going to just get over it... If you want this game to be a PROFESSIONAL SPORTS. You got to be professional dammit. We have to have standards and who decides those standards? The people that give power to the players, power to the casters, power to the sponsors. The reason you have sponsors to advertise to the people! The freaking community, which in turn has spoken.
|
I swear, this argument comes up on TL once every month or two. A bunch of people try to convince us that there's no harm in using really offensive language and that the only people who are hurt by it are oversensitive ninnies. A bunch of other people try to convince us that anybody who uses offensive language is a mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging bigot. Neither are true. Both are basically the assertions of people who don't really enjoy thinking.
The worst accusation that can probably be leveled at people who use racially charged language in this context is that they are insensitive. They have chosen this path knowing that their language is, and can be, genuinely hurtful to others. They have chosen not to consider those people when they select their vocabulary. Leaving aside whether this is good for the community or esports or anything else, it's a choice with consequences. It's not evil, or racist, or bigoted, or anything like that. It's insensitive, because it's a direct refusal to consider the feelings of others. That is the extent of it. Racism would be the assertion that somebody who is offended or hurt by the word is stupid and wrong.
That assertion is not being made, nor should it. Choosing to acknowledge and ignore this does not make you a bigot. When somebody uses f*****in a game of SC2 he's not insulting the gay community, but a gay person might be hurt by it nonetheless. If you choose to use it regardless, you are not homophobic, you're accepting that you might hurt somebody genuinely without meaning to. If you're okay with that, that's the end of the discussion. If someone calls you on it because they've been hurt, you should probably recognize that you did something you didn't intend to. (You intended to BM, not hurt.)
That said, my personal belief is that words like that should never be used except academically. Certainly white people choosing to never use n***** again will not magically end racism, but it couldn't hurt. In the same breath, no laws or rules should enforce this, as this would limit free speech. It has to be voluntary.
Likewise, people who are offended by words like this are not just oversensitive ninnies. It's difficult to grow up gay in the United States without having at least one memory of being called a f***** by somebody who intends to do you harm. It's difficult to grow up black in the United States without at least one memory of a white person (or a black person) calling you a n***** to demean you, to make you feel like less of a person. If a person like this asks you to not use that word with them, you should respect their wishes. This is not self-censorship or anything like that. It's not the end of freedom of speech. It's just you being courteous to somebody because they asked you to be, and because it doesn't really cost you anything.
|
On May 02 2012 02:52 parkjimo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 02:45 AnalThermometer wrote:
For a start, those emailing the sponsors should take no blame. The logic that they're causing E-sports harm by informing the sponsors about the actions of someone under their banner is ass-backwards.
One day someone with influence may decide to take it beyond the scope of these forums, and then it's done for. A journalist with an influential blog on a site like Forbes might decide to one day make an entry about one of these situations which keep cropping up, because these threads certainly are popular. Would we go and post in the comments asking him to take it down because it might hurt the scene, perhaps? No, that would be retarded. Keeping it quiet and sweeping it under the rug to "protect E-sports" is not an option. Prevention is the only sensible option.
This is a warning to not take an insular view on this type of situation - I've seen posts in places not connected to SC2 who will email sponsors at the drop of a hat and have done in the past. The argument that it's just the internets will not wash with the general public, they'll see what's going on here and kill your credibility before giving you the time of day. You'll be tarred with the same brush which was used on the fighting game community recently.
You should be pointing your fingers at Destiny and other high profile players for constantly giving them reasons to do it. Destiny doesn't say it, people have no reason to send mail. You should also point fingers at the teams choosing these types of players on purpose - I would be far more suprised to see a member of Team Liquid taking part in these sort of antics that I would members of other teams because I know TL use their discretion. Amazing, amazing post. I don't understand why people always feel the need to ignore bad things that happen. They need to be addressed and responded to accordingly. Simply ignoring this because "IT'S DESTINY GUYS XDDDDD" is stupid. If Quantic doesn't want to do anything, which is extremely clear considering they picked him up for his abrasive personaility and since they have done nothing in the past to correct his behavior, then going to the sponsors is a must.
THIS^, 100% agree with both these guys.
Sent my complaint email in  Good luck to quantic and Destishitty.
|
So just beacuse Destiny is one of the `Big Faces` of Starcraft 2 that means he has to become a loving/daring and sophisticated person? He has infulence on those who watch his stream? If you are offended by his actions you are most likely not watching his stream hence i don`t see why would you give a flying fuck about what he says.
I`m pretty sure most of his followers like him for what he is and that tells the tale about those people( not that its a bad thing :D).
Point is: Asking him to change is just as much meaningless as asking everyone else to change.
People aren`t all the same accept that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
