Just because battles happen faster doesn't mean it takes less skill or is less exciting, it leaves less room for error, for example(I'm sure plenty of people can find a problem with the analagy) try driving down the road and taking a Sharp turn at 45 mph, if you slip up its ok there is time to correct, now try taking that same turn at 90 mph, one slip of the hand and its game over.
By the way, glad to see someone that's actually interested in seeing things through the eyes of a SC2 fan's perspective instead of just preaching about how awesome BW is (well it is awesome but you get my point ). You seem to really be trying to keep this as a reasonable discussion, which is a lot more than I can say about most threads about SC2 in the BW section, or BW posts in the SC2 section.
On April 09 2012 06:01 Fyrewolf wrote: You say you started watching BW in 2009. As someone who played since vanilla 1.00, I have to say that all 3 of your points are ignorant of the history that starcraft actually has. At the beginning of starcraft, 1 base play was standard. People even argued about whether expanding was even worth it, and about things like if maynarding your workers was even worth it, something that is taken for granted now. Muta micro was nonexistant. There was no refinement like there is now. SC2 is still a relatively new game, and we have had the chance to be part of its growth.
Just now we are seeing amazing strategic plays coming out of greta players, with very good micro, much faster than we did in starcraft. As to battles being quicker, SC2 is designed and meant to be faster paced than BW. Would slowing down the battles into slo-motion be more flashy? Sure, everything is better in slow motion, but it would inversely make it less intense. Just because the battle is faster doesn't make it less enjoyable. You are glued to the screen waiting for that intense moment when the battle occurs and you see the magic occur in a very short span. This sort of thing is something that was highly regarded in BW as well, for example in Boxer vs Chusung, where Boxer locked down 7 stacked Battlecruisers in ONE(!) second by hotkeying each one seperately, for which he won a pimpest play award. Even other sports often come down to a single important moment that is incredibly intense. Football is very much such a game where it is a game of moments, or many times a fighting tournament that ends in a single moment when an fighter is knocked out.
Micro had to evolve after a period of time for starcraft, as it has for SC2. Early on in both games there was a ton of 1a(2a3a4a5a6a7a8a8a9a0a), but there is plenty of micro going on in SC2. We see individual stalkers blink away in fights, packs of marines splitting, individual marines stimmed and scouting army flanks, small packs of marauders running to pick off high templar, multipronged harasses, all sorts of good feats of micro occuring. I would argue that micro was something we didn't see as much of in BW as in SC2, because macroing took up so much more of your apm in BW. To be able to macro properly while microing was the real feat, as the person who fell behind in the macro game would just lose to the reinforcement army being bigger than his. Do you know why iloveoov was called "Cheater Terran"? No matter how well you microed against him, he would always have more units at home than he should have been able to have, because his macro was so good.
TL;DR Point 1: It's there, you just aren't looking hard enough. Point 2: The battles are supposed to be faster, the game is faster paced. It's still enjoyable, and more intense. Point 3. It's there, you just aren't looking hard enough again, and it is arguably going to be even bigger and more important than in BW. It's not like we could expect everyone to pick up SC2 and immediately play it at a level of BW, a game that has a decade of experience behind it. They're different and you should have expected it to take time to grow. Even if you don't see 100% what you are looking for right now, if you see the potential for it, then you should watch SC2. I assure you that the things you want are already there, though the game is in a different format, a faster-paced higher-energy spectacle. And if you can't get over the new design of it being faster, then you should just stick with the design of the old game you like, there's nothing wrong with that either.
I'm aware of the history of BW, but how the game was played in 2000 has nothing to do with what i enjoy about the game today. It has even less to do with my enjoyment of SC2, whether or not the game will be better tomorrow doesn't really influence my enjoyment of it today.
Again, VOD's would be appreciated.
On April 09 2012 06:03 Troxle wrote: No offense to the OP. But your comments on the Flash and Fantasy games are the same reason you said you didn't like StarCraft 2. Flash set up a contain on Fantasy and through quick thinkin' Fantasy used other advantages he had to stop the drop. I've seen the equivalent in StarCraft 2 with Terran contains and Zerg usin' Nydus Worm or Roach Burrow Movement to get around it, or infested Terran to slowly pick away at the contain while movin' the army in a way to break out and exploit a weakened Terran who just lost a large chunk of forces. I've watched Terran versus Terran and one Terran does drops in the back ground, loads his entire army in Medivacs and lands directly ontop of the deployed siege tank contain and slowly takes it down.
That bein' said, I will agree that StarCraft 2 is a faster game in the sense, fights go much quicker, which makes micro an even more important part of StarCraft 2. Fights tend to happen in larger engagements (part of the reason for these faster fights). For any Brood War veterans, we remember the small scale battles that happened seemingly everywhere all the time. That can make for a more excitin' time. But at the same time StarCraft 2 harassment fills that gap. Players like WhiteRa and his Warp Prism make these small scale engagements more common. Terran droppin' multiple locations while pushin' the front. These might not be exactly the same as a 30 minute Brood War game that has constant battles over the map all game, but in my opinion that is just borin'. I'd rather watch StarCraft 2 mid game where you start to see players takin' pokes here to see how much they can get away with, their builds start to really form, etc...Brood War is fun to watch a game here or there, but it just gets borin' to watch small scale fight after small scale fight the entire time with no real time to take a breather.
In the end: StarCraft 2 and Brood War are separate games and its like comparin' oranges to apples. They are both real time strategy games made by the same company, but the differences between the games are too vast. There will be people who prefer Brood War to StarCraft 2 and vice versa.
First off, spoilers on FvF
Second, the example was mainly to demonstrate the scale at which stuff happens in BW. Things like maneuver and unit placement halfway across the map influencing a fight.
Thanks for the comments about harassment, I'll look out for it more.
Then come back to SC2 in a couple years...?
I don't really know what you want. SC2 is still super new and things are only just now developing. SC2 teams were not the established power houses that BW teams have had the luxury of being for several years now, so they're only just now starting to be able to have proper training and whatnot, and it's beginning to show in the quality of games. BW had YEARS to develop to the point it was when you started watching, and you seem to demand that SC2 be at the same level after only 2, and it won't be...
Again, I want to be able to enjoy SC2 today, not in a few years. Also, I've seen SC2 improve substantially in the time I've watched it, but i think two years in the "it's a new game" argument is getting a little stale.
But there is no getting around the time it takes a game to develop. There's no shortcut to figuring the game out. In fact, if people did manage to understand the game at incredible depth immediately, it COULDN'T be very deep. SC2 has been developing at an extremely rapid pace over the last 6 months or so. It takes time because people are going to play to win, and discovery just doesn't have as much of an immediate payoff as the alternative. It still happens sure, but it's slowed down. And that's just unavoidable. In a competitive situation, you do whatever you can to win, because that's what you're there to do. There is just no getting around things like this, so even if the same old arguments are getting stale, they're still no less accurate.
I like both games. But I appreciate them for what they are, and where they are in their respective lifecycles. And remember, if you are comparing SC2 games to BW games, remember which games you're comparing. Don't look at a Flash VS Jaedong game and compare it to a TLO vs Goody game. For every lame cheese you see in SC2, remember how Team 8, the all-star lineup, had so many matches this season where they just cheesed game after game after game, and a ton of them were off of one base. Remember how some of them worked, or the other player just facepalmed when they read it wrong. BW is special because there are players that MAKE it so. It took a loooong time for those players to come out, and very few of them can display the kind of consistent awesome that guys like Flash or Savior were able to do. Be very careful to remember exactly what it is you're comparing. In the mean time, watch IPL4, think of the context of the players and the game, and enjoy it for what it is, and look forward to what it will be. SC2 will NEVER be brood war, but I have absolutely no doubt that it will be just as good a game. Who knows, by the time the trilogy of games is done, we might look back and see it as a sequel that managed to surpass the original.
Good point, and i will repeat that i do expect the quality of play in SC2 to continue improving. Still, I'd repeat that I'd like to be able to enjoy the game as much as i do BW right now, even if it is for different reasons. Seeing as you're someone who follows both games, I'd appreciate hearing more from you on what things about SC2 you like that you feel aren't present in BW.
On April 09 2012 06:37 thrawn2112 wrote: if u guys think he's trolling then why are you responding. either its an excellent troll or the OP is unintentionally coming off as a douchebag, or my bias towards sc2 is making it seem that way.
i think you should play sc2 and maybe by playing the game you will learn what other people get out of watching
Just for the sake of facilitating discussion, what about my posts do you think has me coming off as douchy.
Also, playing isn't on the table. I know my tastes in gaming, and know i wouldn't enjoy playing SC2 today. The same is true with BW, but that doesn't prevent me from enjoying watching it.
Its reallly funny that you dont see your posts as arrogant or douchy. You ask us for reasons SC2 is better than BW, we tell you that the game is still developing and is on a much much faster track than BW. That not only are the games good now and you need to watch them, but they are going to get a LOT better. Your response is well, fuck what you said i want it now and i dont want to do the work...
Fair enough, and in hindsight i could see how my posts could be read as wanting SC2 to have everything i love about BW. I did state in the OP that I'm open to there being ways in which SC2 being different than BW makes it better, but that hasn't come up much in the discussion. I'll try and rectify that.
And again, I've tried watching a lot of SC2, and it hasn't made me love the game. So, I'm sorry if i sound frustrated with my replies to the "WATCH IPL" posts, but i hope you can at least understand why that is.
On April 09 2012 06:52 Fyrewolf wrote:
On April 09 2012 06:35 deafhobbit wrote:
On April 09 2012 06:34 snailz wrote:
On April 09 2012 06:01 Fyrewolf wrote: You say you started watching BW in 2009. As someone who played since vanilla 1.00, I have to say that all 3 of your points are ignorant of the history that starcraft actually has. At the beginning of starcraft, 1 base play was standard. People even argued about whether expanding was even worth it, and about things like if maynarding your workers was even worth it, something that is taken for granted now. Muta micro was nonexistant. There was no refinement like there is now. SC2 is still a relatively new game, and we have had the chance to be part of its growth.
Just now we are seeing amazing strategic plays coming out of greta players, with very good micro, much faster than we did in starcraft. As to battles being quicker, SC2 is designed and meant to be faster paced than BW. Would slowing down the battles into slo-motion be more flashy? Sure, everything is better in slow motion, but it would inversely make it less intense. Just because the battle is faster doesn't make it less enjoyable. You are glued to the screen waiting for that intense moment when the battle occurs and you see the magic occur in a very short span. This sort of thing is something that was highly regarded in BW as well, for example in Boxer vs Chusung, where Boxer locked down 7 stacked Battlecruisers in ONE(!) second by hotkeying each one seperately, for which he won a pimpest play award. Even other sports often come down to a single important moment that is incredibly intense. Football is very much such a game where it is a game of moments, or many times a fighting tournament that ends in a single moment when an fighter is knocked out.
Micro had to evolve after a period of time for starcraft, as it has for SC2. Early on in both games there was a ton of 1a(2a3a4a5a6a7a8a8a9a0a), but there is plenty of micro going on in SC2. We see individual stalkers blink away in fights, packs of marines splitting, individual marines stimmed and scouting army flanks, small packs of marauders running to pick off high templar, multipronged harasses, all sorts of good feats of micro occuring. I would argue that micro was something we didn't see as much of in BW as in SC2, because macroing took up so much more of your apm in BW. To be able to macro properly while microing was the real feat, as the person who fell behind in the macro game would just lose to the reinforcement army being bigger than his. Do you know why iloveoov was called "Cheater Terran"? No matter how well you microed against him, he would always have more units at home than he should have been able to have, because his macro was so good.
TL;DR Point 1: It's there, you just aren't looking hard enough. Point 2: The battles are supposed to be faster, the game is faster paced. It's still enjoyable, and more intense. Point 3. It's there, you just aren't looking hard enough again, and it is arguably going to be even bigger and more important than in BW. It's not like we could expect everyone to pick up SC2 and immediately play it at a level of BW, a game that has a decade of experience behind it. They're different and you should have expected it to take time to grow. Even if you don't see 100% what you are looking for right now, if you see the potential for it, then you should watch SC2. I assure you that the things you want are already there, though the game is in a different format, a faster-paced higher-energy spectacle. And if you can't get over the new design of it being faster, then you should just stick with the design of the old game you like, there's nothing wrong with that either.
oh damn, you killed it.
OP will ignore you ofcourse, because he never had any intention of actually conversing with anyone. but good job none the less.
I replied, actually, and thanked him for his comments.
Yeah, you thanked me so much that I had to call it out as a terrible post that didn't respond to a single point made. That's dismissive. I explained how what you say is lacking is not, and how the faster pace doesn't make it less enjoyable. No one can tell you what to like about SC2, you have to find what you like about SC2 yourself.
Again, i didn't respond to your points because I'm not arguing with you. Let me repeat, I want to be wrong, and that's why i thanked you.
Actually, you didn't thank me. You thanked the other guy for comments about harrasment. Me you just dismissed by only saying you don't care about the history of starcraft and ignoring how that was about current sc2 actually being good now vs how starcraft one was at similar time in its life, and that if you see the potential for what you like you should watch sc2. I don't like to repeat myself, but no one can tell you what to like about SC2, you have to find what you like about SC2 yourself.
Sorry, quotes within quotes within quotes and all that.
It's not that i don't care about the history of BW. You're right, things that i like about how BW is played today weren't present during the early years. Thing is, i don't watch BW games from back then, i watch games played today. I'm aware SC2 has improved, and hopeful that it will continue to do so. However, saying that SC2 has the potential to be great doesn't make me enjoy it today. That's like saying i should love the taste of vinegar because it could be used to make a kick ass salad dressing.
Finally, I'm asking you to help me appreciate your game more. To help me notice things i may have missed. That's entirely something others can do for me. Hell, it's basically a commentator's job.
On April 09 2012 07:16 KrsOne wrote: Just because battles happen faster doesn't mean it takes less skill or is less exciting, it leaves less room for error, for example(I'm sure plenty of people can find a problem with the analagy) try driving down the road and taking a Sharp turn at 45 mph, if you slip up its ok there is time to correct, now try taking that same turn at 90 mph, one slip of the hand and its game over.
I'm not talking about skill, I'm talking about the spectator experience. For me, the fact that battles are so fast in SC2 makes them less enjoyable, because it's harder to appreciate the details.
Very well written post. Just wanted to add I agree with you. You worded your arguments well, and gave solid examples.Also wanted to point out that the SC2 fans giving 1 line answers that don't add anything to the conversation is getting annoying. Come on, Original Poster spent a fair amount of time writing that up, the least you can do is spend a bit more time and write more than 1 sentence. Trust me, us BW fans WANT to like SC2. Just give us a reason to.
Is the OP honestly trying to compare BW in its prime days to Sc2, a game barely out of its first year in existence? Lets face it, everyone sucks at sc2. People just haven't played it long enough.
A lot of valid points. Because SC2 is so much faster paced and strategically oriented, it often feels like things in game are much differently (and extremely valued) than in other RTS games, BW included. There never seems to be a middle ground in things like engagements, economy management, skirmishes etc. Its either do or do not.
While this prevents players from recovering from large mistakes (which is fair, honestly) it prevents a lot of the potential from being reached. The force multipliers aren't as meaningful as they are in other games and while, yes, control IS valuable, there is no excess in which you can make it more valuable than it already is, or make it just slightly more useful.
On April 09 2012 07:21 INFDexter wrote: Is the OP honestly trying to compare BW in its prime days to Sc2, a game barely out of its first year in existence? Lets face it, everyone sucks at sc2. People just haven't played it long enough.
Fair enough. Why then do you like SC2, in spite of the fact that you feel it is played poorly?
On April 09 2012 07:22 AKomrade wrote: A lot of valid points. Because SC2 is so much faster paced and strategically oriented, it often feels like things in game are much differently (and extremely valued) than in other RTS games, BW included. There never seems to be a middle ground in things like engagements, economy management, skirmishes etc. Its either do or do not.
While this prevents players from recovering from large mistakes (which is fair, honestly) it prevents a lot of the potential from being reached. The force multipliers aren't as meaningful as they are in other games and while, yes, control IS valuable, there is no excess in which you can make it more valuable than it already is, or make it just slightly more useful.
Just to provide you some perspective, this is an argument that BW fans really dislike. In general, we feel that BW requires at least as much strategy as SC2 while also requiring better mechanics. Therefore, when we hear people say SC2 is "more strategic" it really irks us.
First, SCII is not BW, and likely never will be. As for strategy, the game is still developing, and strategy is only improving (compare this to the BW strategy a couple years in). Even now, there are many subtle things that someone who doesn't watch that much might not understand. An example I can think of was a recent game between I believe MKP, and a top protoss. MKP was pushing into the protoss's base, and after the initial storms, the chargelots started being kited across the map, but the protoss had hts positioned perfectly, and stormed 50% on 50% behind the kiting army, doing incredible damage, though I believe ultimately losing the game due to MKP's jaw-dropping bio splitting as the storms were beginning. I'm sorry that I can't remember the game, it might have been GSTL finals against parting (the regame). For your second point, yes battles are much shorter, and can sometimes be hard to tell what's happening, but that can lead to them being more exciting, because things happen suddenly. When 6 ghosts cloak and snipe/emp a bunch of hts/infestors in the blink of an eye, (I can't find the vod for this) when someone uses only zerglings and drops to crush a 2 collosus push that should've won the game, when that perfect vortex comes and instantly swallows the zerg's entire army, that is exciting. Also, brood lord pushes take a long time. And for micro, that will never be as good as bw, but you are missing some things that should be more frequent later, when players are better. First off, blink stalkers: while they are microd individually in small battles, in the big ones nearly all pros currently blink them back in packs because they aren't fast enough not to, this should change with time. Even top pros still headbutt their infestors into the opponents army from time to time. Muta micro is currently rather pathetic, I never see magic boxing around storms or archons, I don't see using a cliff to dance around marines or stalkers (which also results in long battles [I had an amazing example of this, but I lost my hard drive the other day ]), I don't see people microing ultralisks to account for their awful pathing, I hardly ever see people keeping a voidray charged by hitting their own units once, I never see roach burrow micro used like blink stalker micro, I rarely see people walking injured units to the back, I rarely see target firing in big battles, in pvp colossi often aren't split like they should be. For things that have happened, I remember a game where Hero microd his stalkers amazingly, and won without losing a single unit (I believe it was Hero TLO at MLG Raleigh, but their VOD service isn't working for me) Queen vs. hellion in base micro is very exciting to watch, and here Hero used warp prisms to make his immortals immortal, holding off an all in that looked for sure like it would kill him, and had an immortal with around 50 kills (Action starts around 7:00) To summarize, SCII will only get better with time.
Interesting things you pointed out, but why are those things like that.
Mostly sc2 is way faster then bw, which is a huge factor. There is less time to do the things you can do in bw. Mechanics being easier make up for this. But yes units clump easily, you fight the pathfinding as much as you did in bw, but since units are easier to control, you can micro more, so most units have some sort of micro involved.
But talking about a fight ending fast. A move a clump of units into a terran position ... in bw, that is fast. Also in bw, every trick is used to control your units. In sc2 you see a terran still a moving marines against heavy aoe compositions, while they can easily move in formation after you spread them. Banelings can do the same, still they move in a giant clump most of the time against siege tanks. Spellcasters cast their spells and others simply move into the opponent with full energy. In bw some can even storm with multiple templars at the same time, because they know how it works.
I don't know why people control everything in bw to its full potential, while in sc2 its simply a move a blob around and only start to micro when you are in battle. Maybe the game is to hard, I mean alot of people played bw and did all the stuff there. Maybe its an agreement to not micro. The phoenix is a good example though for why people don't micro. You can micro around don't lose a single phoenix kill workers left and right and suddenly you are overrun, because they took to much of your time and the oh so easy macro slipped.
But i think there is plenty of strategy involved in sc2 as well as in bw, you can often see gameplans. (+2 melee baneling bombs against a toss, now that was awesome). But the general strategy revolves around denying the third. Not much different from bw, don't let the zergy get the gas income.
What i like the most in sc2 over bw. Is that you don't have those strong off guard moments. In BW a single unit can mess you up badly while you where busy somewhere else. While this looks like an awesome move for a viewer, I always disliked that it was only possible because the opponent didn't payed attention. That's not so easy to achieve in sc2, simple because players aren't in their base 60% of the time reproducing units.
My biggest dislike in sc2 is the increased supply cost. As mentioned workers cut the available supply to a point where getting more then 3 bases just isn't worth it, because your army would be to small and get overrun. I like the oversupply mechanic of every race (orbitals/warpgates/building cancel trick). And when i start the flood as zerg I often do it with 230 supply. But even then, Hydras 2 supplys ... tanks 3 supply that do half of the damage of a 2 supply bw tank. To do the work of a bw tank (2 supply) you need 2 sc2 tanks (6 supply) and there is this units are way faster in sc2 bonus reducing the tank effectiveness even. They wanted to make sc2 play out faster then bw. But i think it was a bad decision to reduce the amount of units on the map. My hope is that they will reduce the optimal worker amount per base in the future expansions. Other then that the game is really good gives the players alot of opportunities to make the units work better. And luckily don't make them that insane like in bw. It was nice to watch nice to pull off, but it felt like you won because your opponent wasn't there.
Just my personal experience between sc2 and bw. I play to many rts games, to really become a master in any of them. But the potential they put in sc2 is only scratched a bit and can mostly be seen in the marine.
PS: still baffled that people don't see giant groups burrowed unit movement, but see every observer coming to close to their army. Okay some maps have fog, which hides burrowed units perfectly.
On April 09 2012 07:24 dAPhREAk wrote: MMA vs Stephano. multiple locations being attacked. you watching?
I am. To be clear though, drops multiple places aren't quite what BW fans mean when they talk about fights going on all over the place. Because balls really don't exist in BW, armies tend to be scattered all over the place, and instead of having one big fight and a few drops you tend to have several mid sized ones going on at once.
This isn't to say that MMA v Stephano isn't impressive, only that it's different.
Thank you. I guess I've focused more on the process of the fights, and not the decisions on whether or not to commit to them.
It's not just the decision to commit. It can be EXTREMELY difficult to determine exactly how much you are committing to a certain fight, and even when you DO decide to go in, unit control has a LOT to do with exactly how much you've committed. How quickly can you decide to put forcefields in what place? How many stalkers to you have blink where? Do you storm or feedback first? When microing your marines and marauders, when, where, and how do you have them split up? Can you get your hellions in a position to take advantage of this? Can you get that colossus and lift safely? Will those vikings do enough damage to the broodlords that you don't get overwhelmed during the fight by broodlings, even if your vikings do die to fungals and corruptors? Can you make them last just a bit longer by microing them a bit, and is it worth it more than controling your marines at that exact same moment? Can you spare that split second of your time to drop when their infestors are right out of range of the marines in your main army to take out that spire? Can you afford to bait those stims/forcefields with your muta/ling army and take out their critical units without loosing too much? Once you have sent your utltras in, can you make your fungals and banelings connect to trade cost efficiently? Stuff like that.
On April 09 2012 07:24 dAPhREAk wrote: MMA vs Stephano. multiple locations being attacked. you watching?
I am. To be clear though, drops multiple places aren't quite what BW fans mean when they talk about fights going on all over the place. Because balls really don't exist in BW, armies tend to be scattered all over the place, and instead of having one big fight and a few drops you tend to have several mid sized ones going on at once.
This isn't to say that MMA v Stephano isn't impressive, only that it's different.
he was defending an attack, and he had a marrine/medivac/tank army taking out expansions. what exactly do you want?
edit: he just did it again. he is defending and attacking at the same time.
On April 09 2012 07:24 dAPhREAk wrote: MMA vs Stephano. multiple locations being attacked. you watching?
I am. To be clear though, drops multiple places aren't quite what BW fans mean when they talk about fights going on all over the place. Because balls really don't exist in BW, armies tend to be scattered all over the place, and instead of having one big fight and a few drops you tend to have several mid sized ones going on at once.
This isn't to say that MMA v Stephano isn't impressive, only that it's different.
he was defending an attack, and he had a marrine/medivac/tank army taking out expansions. what exactly do you want?
edit: he just did it again. he is defending and attacking at the same time.
He doesn't want two separate battles going on in different places, but one big battle spread out evenly over a huge area, not one big ball hitting another big ball, while 8 marines are shooting a spine crawler.
On April 09 2012 07:24 dAPhREAk wrote: MMA vs Stephano. multiple locations being attacked. you watching?
I am. To be clear though, drops multiple places aren't quite what BW fans mean when they talk about fights going on all over the place. Because balls really don't exist in BW, armies tend to be scattered all over the place, and instead of having one big fight and a few drops you tend to have several mid sized ones going on at once.
This isn't to say that MMA v Stephano isn't impressive, only that it's different.
he was defending an attack, and he had a marrine/medivac/tank army taking out expansions. what exactly do you want?
edit: he just did it again. he is defending and attacking at the same time.
Again, sneaking a small force around to attack an undefended base while your main army holds off their main army isn't the same thing as two or three mid sized armies fighting each other at the same time at different points on the map.
On April 09 2012 07:24 dAPhREAk wrote: MMA vs Stephano. multiple locations being attacked. you watching?
I am. To be clear though, drops multiple places aren't quite what BW fans mean when they talk about fights going on all over the place. Because balls really don't exist in BW, armies tend to be scattered all over the place, and instead of having one big fight and a few drops you tend to have several mid sized ones going on at once.
This isn't to say that MMA v Stephano isn't impressive, only that it's different.
he was defending an attack, and he had a marrine/medivac/tank army taking out expansions. what exactly do you want?
edit: he just did it again. he is defending and attacking at the same time.
He doesn't want two separate battles going on in different places, but one big battle spread out evenly over a huge area, not one big ball hitting another big ball, while 8 marines are shooting a spine crawler.
That too, though i have to qualify your statement. Multiple battles happening at once is fun, but i don't really see harassing an essentially undefended base as a battle.
By the time SC2 is 12 years old as an esport (the minimum age of SCBW in the vods linked), it will not be missing any of the things you mention. I would see these things (high strategy, better micro) rising out of necessity as the game gets older.
They exist, but you can't open a vod and expect to see them. Not least because there are few casters who know enough to point out strategic brilliance even when it is staring them in the face. High level zergs have been fairly consistent with having a strong overarching strategy to their play for some time now.
If you discount DRG's dismal performance in code S this season atleast.
PLAY Sc2 instead of just watching it, it's a lot easier to appreciate the strategy of a game you play frequently. If you don't like it you don't have to play or watch it, there's plenty of other games out there.
People are still playing Warcraft II by the way. You don't have to worry about BW disappearing entirely any time soon.
On April 09 2012 07:24 dAPhREAk wrote: MMA vs Stephano. multiple locations being attacked. you watching?
I am. To be clear though, drops multiple places aren't quite what BW fans mean when they talk about fights going on all over the place. Because balls really don't exist in BW, armies tend to be scattered all over the place, and instead of having one big fight and a few drops you tend to have several mid sized ones going on at once.
This isn't to say that MMA v Stephano isn't impressive, only that it's different.
he was defending an attack, and he had a marrine/medivac/tank army taking out expansions. what exactly do you want?
edit: he just did it again. he is defending and attacking at the same time.
Again, sneaking a small force around to attack an undefended base while your main army holds off their main army isn't the same thing as two or three mid sized armies fighting each other at the same time at different points on the map.
On April 09 2012 07:24 dAPhREAk wrote: MMA vs Stephano. multiple locations being attacked. you watching?
I am. To be clear though, drops multiple places aren't quite what BW fans mean when they talk about fights going on all over the place. Because balls really don't exist in BW, armies tend to be scattered all over the place, and instead of having one big fight and a few drops you tend to have several mid sized ones going on at once.
This isn't to say that MMA v Stephano isn't impressive, only that it's different.
he was defending an attack, and he had a marrine/medivac/tank army taking out expansions. what exactly do you want?
edit: he just did it again. he is defending and attacking at the same time.
He doesn't want two separate battles going on in different places, but one big battle spread out evenly over a huge area, not one big ball hitting another big ball, while 8 marines are shooting a spine crawler.
That too, though i have to qualify your statement. Multiple battles happening at once is fun, but i don't really see harassing an essentially undefended base as a battle.
if you didnt enjoy that game, you should just not bother to watch SC2. that is probably as entertaining a game as you will find.
edit: stephano did have a force to fight off the tank/medivac/marines.
You should just stop watching SC2. It's clear you don't enjoy it as much as BW. Lucky for you, you have 10 years of VODS to go through. Get crackin' big guy!
EPT
). You seem to really be trying to keep this as a reasonable discussion, which is a lot more than I can say about most threads about SC2 in the BW section, or BW posts in the SC2 section.
]), I don't see people microing ultralisks to account for their awful pathing, I hardly ever see people keeping a voidray charged by hitting their own units once, I never see roach burrow micro used like blink stalker micro, I rarely see people walking injured units to the back, I rarely see target firing in big battles, in pvp colossi often aren't split like they should be.
