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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP. | ||
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Zaqwe
591 Posts
On March 26 2012 17:09 Defacer wrote: Come on. He may not be a vigilante, but if what he did is considered 'observing and reporting' he fucking sucked at it. Because he got attacked? If someone works at McDonalds and they get robbed, does he suck at working at McDonalds? | ||
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kdgns
United States2427 Posts
On March 26 2012 17:28 Zaqwe wrote: Because he got attacked? If someone works at McDonalds and they get robbed, does he suck at working at McDonalds? if he killed a guy behind that mcdonalds and said he was being robbed but there was a lot of conflicting reports, then your comparison would be valid. | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On March 26 2012 17:06 Geosurface wrote: This case is a tragedy, no doubt. My concern, though, is that the way the media has covered this is going to come back to bite them, and many others. By focusing entirely on the emotion of the case, ignoring the key and only EYE witness (John) despite what he had to say being on local news the day after the shooting, and therefore available to ALL of these national news agencies... they have drummed up a level of furvor at this point which will be really hard to defuse. By only showing the pictures of Trayvon when he was 12, and looking like Emanuel Lewis as Webster (if anyone else is old enough to remember that), and either ignoring or not pursuing more recent pictures, the emotion and also the confusion (how could he view that child as suspicious?) have gone way beyond where they'd be at if the coverage had been more even-handed. So I know that the way they've covered it is good for ratings, good for clicks on their websites... but it may not be good for the country because if when it's all said and done, the grand jury, special task forces, and every other measure that's been called in to appease the anger, come to the same conclusion that there is no basis for prosecution... that self-defense is a legitimate claim here... then there could very well be riots or at the very least incidents tied to that. If that does happen, will not the sites and stations that ignored John's testimony, made no effort to present alternate views of the event, or to control the emotion in their coverage, will not they have blood on their hands if people die or are seriously injured in those riots/incidents? I feel that they may. Whether Zimmerman is found guilty of anything or not -- I hope people react responsibly. What I hope most is that wanna-be 'good samaritans' learn how to be responsible gun owners. If you're not trained in how to deal with potential criminal activity or suspicious behavior, let the police do their damn jobs. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On March 26 2012 17:27 Defacer wrote: I caught a question, because you seem to know the ins-and-outs of the legal system better than most -- do you think there is anything he could be charged with, assuming that it is determined that he was defending himself? Is he simply guilty of being an idiot? What kind of information would have to come to light for his idiocy to be considered illegal? i think he can and should be charged with the killing, and the self defense tested in court. however, assuming the self defense was reasonable, i dont think there is any criminal liability. there is also apparently civil immunity under Florida Law, so no to that as well. | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On March 26 2012 17:28 Zaqwe wrote: Because he got attacked? If someone works at McDonalds and they get robbed, does he suck at working at McDonalds? I don't know how security guards roll in America, but any low-level security guard in Canada -- ones that patrol office buildings at night, parking lots, banks and malls -- aren't allowed to carry guns for a reason. They aren't trained to engage or deal with a potentially dangerous situation. Zimmerman should have know better and kept his inept ass in the car. He shouldn't have ever put himself in a situation to get attacked, if that's what happened. He's not qualified. It's not his job. | ||
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Zaqwe
591 Posts
On March 26 2012 17:31 kdgns wrote: + Show Spoiler + On March 26 2012 17:28 Zaqwe wrote: Because he got attacked? If someone works at McDonalds and they get robbed, does he suck at working at McDonalds? if he killed a guy behind that mcdonalds and said he was being robbed but there was a lot of conflicting reports, then your comparison would be valid. The thing is in this case there really aren't any conflicting reports, aside from the media circus. What the eyewitnesses saw all lines up with Zimmerman's story. There's one earwitness who heard the gunshot, Mary Cutcher, who has been making media rounds where she makes outlandish claims. For example she claims she knows there was no physical altercation because she didn't hear punches from inside her house. Even children should know that punches don't make *POW* sounds like the live action Batman television show. The wounds on Zimmerman did not just magically appear. When you get down to what she actually saw and actually heard there is no conflicting testimony. She is of course raking in a lot of money from all the paid media appearances she is doing. | ||
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Zaqwe
591 Posts
On March 26 2012 17:36 dAPhREAk wrote: i think he can and should be charged with the killing, and the self defense tested in court. however, assuming the self defense was reasonable, i dont think there is any criminal liability. there is also apparently civil immunity under Florida Law, so no to that as well. The thing is you don't just go charging people for the sake of charging them. Lawyers are costly and defending yourself against charges is often punishment in itself. Furthermore due to the apparent lack of evidence that would open them up to a wrongful prosecution lawsuit. | ||
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Geosurface
United States4 Posts
I don't know how security guards roll in America, but any low-level security guard in Canada -- ones that patrol office buildings at night, parking lots, banks and malls -- aren't allowed to carry guns for a reason. They aren't trained to engage or deal with a potentially dangerous situation. Zimmerman should have know better and kept his inept ass in the car. He shouldn't have ever put himself in a situation to get attacked, if that's what happened. He's not qualified. It's not his job. Point taken, and there is validity in what you say. However... look at this vid (only a minute long) you may have seen before: Monk Saves Police Officer In that video we see a police officer who WAS trained to engage or deal with a potentially dangeorus situaton, and it WAS her job, and she was qualified. And yet, a criminal still got the best of her and got her gun. Sometimes people can be taken by surprise when someone else in a situation suddenly acts with more brutality than they are used to dealing with or seeing. And in that same case as you see in the vid, a civilian presumably without said training, and certain whose job it was NOT stepped in and very possibly saved her life. Another civilian also assisted. I'm just pointing out that sometimes civilians do have a role in crime prevention, and sometimes even the well trained can fall victim to unexpected and powerful attack. Perhaps, and of course this isn't known to be the case, but perhaps George Zimmerman went from believing he was merely having a conversation and finding out what this person's business was in the area, to suddenly being pounded on the head with his back on the ground in an amazingly quick transition. I've seen people go from seemingly calm, holding a conversation, to just FLIPPING into super violence mode at a moment's notice. That may have been what happened here, Trayvon may have decided he was sick of being profiled, or who knows what. Of course it may have gone just the opposite, it may have been Z who threw the first punch. But we're in a situation right now where most people aware of this story don't even know that Trayvon threw ANY punches, or that it was Zimmerman, not Trayvon screaming for help. Good job, media. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On March 26 2012 17:42 Zaqwe wrote: The thing is you don't just go charging people for the sake of charging them. Lawyers are costly and defending yourself against charges is often punishment in itself. Furthermore due to the apparent lack of evidence that would open them up to a wrongful prosecution lawsuit. i agree, but i think there is enough for probable cause in this case. if i knew what zimmerman had said during his interrogations that may change, but based on what i have seen there is enough in my mind for an arrest (i.e., probable cause). whether it gets pursued through trial is another matter and the DA may say that there is insufficient evidence to show beyond a reasonable doubt and drop the case. honestly, in these kinds of self defense cases (unarmed victim), i think the police should err on the side of prosecution. i can see why you disagree and i dont think its unreasonable. wrongful prosecution lawsuits are so hard to prove because probable cause is such an amorphous standard. in this case, i dont think you can find a jury that would find civil liability. | ||
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Kar98
Australia924 Posts
Zimmerman is part of the neighborhood watch for his neighborhood. Neighborhood has had 8 residential burglaries within the past year. Zimmerman sees what he believes to be a suspicious person in his neighborhood. He calls 911 and requests police help. 911 tells him not to follow the kid. Unlike police, when 911 tells you to do something, you are not obligated to obey. They are not your boss and have no authority to instruct you to do anything. You are free to do anything that is within the bounds of the law. Zimmerman ignores 911 and follows the kid. Here is where it gets sketchy. An argument/fight ensues between Zimmerman and Trayvon. An eyewitness observes Trayvon on top of Zimmerman pummeling him and Zimmerman is yelling for help. These are the shouts for help heard on the 911 call. Witness goes upstairs to get a better look and in the meantime, Zimemrman pulls his gun and shoots Trayvon. Zimmerman claims that when the two broke apart from the struggle, Trayvon reached inside his jacket. Police arrive and investigate. They observe Zimmerman's face to be bloodied and the back of his clothing to be wet and grass stained, which corroborates the eyewitness statement about Zimmerman being pummeled and Trayvon on top of him. This leaves a number of questions: (1) Who was the initial aggressor that started the physical altercation? It's perfectly within reason to think that either of them could have been the aggressor. I could see Zimmerman going up to the kid and grabbing him and telling him to stop. I can see the kid reacting to that by defending himself from what he sees as some random guy putting his hands on him. I could also see Zimmerman walking up to the and the kid reacting violently. That kind of stuff happens all the time. Either scenario is plausible, although I suspect the truth is something like the first one I suggested. Law in Florida says that you can not use deadly force to defend yourself if you are the aggressor in a fight, unless you unsuccessfully attempt to break off the fight after the initial victim escalates the fight to one involving the use of deadly force, which is defined as force that would likely cause death or great bodily harm. Whether Zimmerman is entitled to use deadly force depends on whether he was the aggressor, or whether after trying to flee the fight, he thought he was in imminent danger of deadly force being used upon him. Unless more witnesses come forward, I don't think we'll ever know what happened to start the encounter. The only known account of what happened at the start is Zimmerman's story. (2) If is it indeterminable who started the fight, then the question becomes whether Zimmerman's fear that the imminent use of deadly force was about to be used on him was a reasonable one. Law in Florida says that in some circumstances, such as encountering a burglar in your house, you are automatically presumed to be in reasonable fear that deadly force is going to be used on you. In this case, that does not apply, so we look at other ways in which one could arrive at the self-defense conclusion. If Trayvon was indeed on top of Zimmerman and beating him, and then reached in his jacket for something, was Zimmerman justified in thinking that he was reaching for a weapon? Was the beating severe enough to constitute an aggravated or felony battery, which are classified as a forcible felonies, which means that a person is presumed justified in using deadly force in order to thwart or repel a forcible felony. In short, there are too few facts known to jump to a conclusion in this case. Police should continue their investigation and see if they can uncover new evidence, i.e. other people in the area who might have seen what went on, any video surveillance from traffic lights, ATM machines, convenience store security cameras, home security cameras, etc. If after further investigation, the facts remain as they are known now, I don't believe there is probable cause to arrest Zimmerman. Inconsistencies in the evidence must be resolved in favor of the accused. That is what innocent until proven guilty means. | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On March 26 2012 17:45 Geosurface wrote: Point taken, and there is validity in what you say. However... look at this vid (only a minute long) you may have seen before: Monk Saves Police Officer In that video we see a police officer who WAS trained to engage or deal with a potentially dangeorus situaton, and it WAS her job, and she was qualified. And yet, a criminal still got the best of her and got her gun. Sometimes people can be taken by surprise when someone else in a situation suddenly acts with more brutality than they are used to dealing with or seeing. And in that same case as you see in the vid, a civilian presumably without said training, and certain whose job it was NOT stepped in and very possibly saved her life. Another civilian also assisted. I'm just pointing out that sometimes civilians do have a role in crime prevention, and sometimes even the well trained can fall victim to unexpected and powerful attack. Perhaps, and of course this isn't known to be the case, but perhaps George Zimmerman went from believing he was merely having a conversation and finding out what this person's business was in the area, to suddenly being pounded on the head with his back on the ground in an amazingly quick transition. I've seen people go from seemingly calm, holding a conversation, to just FLIPPING into super violence mode at a moment's notice. That may have been what happened here, Trayvon may have decided he was sick of being profiled, or who knows what. Of course it may have gone just the opposite, it may have been Z who threw the first punch. But we're in a situation right now where most people aware of this story don't even know that Trayvon threw ANY punches, or that it was Zimmerman, not Trayvon screaming for help. Good job, media. In this case, there was no threat of violence until Zimmerman created a confrontation. He wasn't 'saving' anyone. IMO, he is NOT some kind of vigilante, but he's certainly not blameless. He, at the very least, should be considered dumb. I agree ... the media and mob mentality has taken over, to the point where we may never know the real facts. Every witness has the potential and temptation to be tainted by a political agenda. | ||
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screamingpalm
United States1527 Posts
Unlike police, when 911 tells you to do something, you are not obligated to obey. They are not your boss and have no authority to instruct you to do anything. You are free to do anything that is within the bounds of the law. Zimmerman ignores 911 and follows the kid. My question is, should it be this way? Are there any good reasons why someone should just simply ignore the advice of a 911 operator? I'd imagine their job is difficult enough. Certainly would have saved us from speculating on circumstantial evidence with no accountability in this case at the least. Obviously most of the focus has been on Zimmerman's rights, but what (if any) apply to Martin (or his family) in this case? At the moment it appears to be close to zero. | ||
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dogabutila
United States1437 Posts
On March 26 2012 18:26 screamingpalm wrote: My question is, should it be this way? Are there any good reasons why someone should just simply ignore the advice of a 911 operator? I'd imagine their job is difficult enough. Certainly would have saved us from speculating on circumstantial evidence with no accountability in this case at the least. Obviously most of the focus has been on Zimmerman's rights, but what (if any) apply to Martin (or his family) in this case? At the moment it appears to be close to zero. Yes. 911 operators are not police but are trained civilians much like IT or helpdesk people. Why are there good reasons? Because the 911 operator is trained to advise certain things in all situations, which is not always helpful. While an action might be the best course of action 95% of the time, it's still a bad(or worse) choice 5% of the time. Theres also the story of commanders in Vietnam issuing orders from a helicopter above the battle. If you aren't there on the ground, you can't possibly understand the realities of the situation. You might have a "better" or more neutral perspective, but sometimes investment in an issue is a good thing to have as well. | ||
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Silidons
United States2813 Posts
On March 26 2012 17:45 Geosurface wrote: Point taken, and there is validity in what you say. However... look at this vid (only a minute long) you may have seen before: Monk Saves Police Officer In that video we see a police officer who WAS trained to engage or deal with a potentially dangeorus situaton, and it WAS her job, and she was qualified. And yet, a criminal still got the best of her and got her gun. Sometimes people can be taken by surprise when someone else in a situation suddenly acts with more brutality than they are used to dealing with or seeing. And in that same case as you see in the vid, a civilian presumably without said training, and certain whose job it was NOT stepped in and very possibly saved her life. Another civilian also assisted. I'm just pointing out that sometimes civilians do have a role in crime prevention, and sometimes even the well trained can fall victim to unexpected and powerful attack. Perhaps, and of course this isn't known to be the case, but perhaps George Zimmerman went from believing he was merely having a conversation and finding out what this person's business was in the area, to suddenly being pounded on the head with his back on the ground in an amazingly quick transition. I've seen people go from seemingly calm, holding a conversation, to just FLIPPING into super violence mode at a moment's notice. That may have been what happened here, Trayvon may have decided he was sick of being profiled, or who knows what. Of course it may have gone just the opposite, it may have been Z who threw the first punch. But we're in a situation right now where most people aware of this story don't even know that Trayvon threw ANY punches, or that it was Zimmerman, not Trayvon screaming for help. Good job, media. I don't even know how to respond to a person like you. May I ask what state you live in? It sure will tell a lot about your character because right now I have nothing but hatred towards people like you and would love to see you in a racial profiled situation. I live in California, am White, and know what it's like in areas of high racism. My brother (who isn't racist) moved to a country part of Texas and when I was there for a week, I saw 2 black people. One time he was on the phone driving down the street and said "Holy shit, there is a black guy walking down the street. Everyone is slowing down and watching him." Because where he's at, black people don't generally walk down the street alone because they know what type of racist people live around there. You seem completely oblivious to racism in America as a whole, or are racist yourself if you think a 6'3'' 140lb man could beat up a man who had over 100lbs on him and a gun. Zimmerman is a pussy and deserves the death penalty, and if it were my son I would have already killed him myself. | ||
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Zaqwe
591 Posts
On March 26 2012 19:22 Silidons wrote: I don't even know how to respond to a person like you. May I ask what state you live in? It sure will tell a lot about your character because right now I have nothing but hatred towards people like you and would love to see you in a racial profiled situation. I live in California, am White, and know what it's like in areas of high racism. My brother (who isn't racist) moved to a country part of Texas and when I was there for a week, I saw 2 black people. One time he was on the phone driving down the street and said "Holy shit, there is a black guy walking down the street. Everyone is slowing down and watching him." Because where he's at, black people don't generally walk down the street alone because they know what type of racist people live around there. You seem completely oblivious to racism in America as a whole, or are racist yourself if you think a 6'3'' 140lb man could beat up a man who had over 100lbs on him and a gun. Zimmerman is a pussy and deserves the death penalty, and if it were my son I would have already killed him myself. Wow. You need to calm down and do some reading on this case before flying off the handle like that. I can't fathom why you think Zimmerman deserves the death penalty when his self defense case is so strong. You are the one who seems ignorant about racism in America, most of which is directed against Whites. Just look at how the media pretended Zimmerman was White to play on prevalent anti-White sentiments. Zimmerman was on the ground being punched when he shot Trayvon Martin Literally thousands of articles contain at least one false statement in the first couple of lines. They usually read "George Zimmerman, a white man," or "shot by a white man." Zimmerman is described by family as a multiracial Hispanic. His appearance is clearly that of a Latino/Mestizo individual. However, the media wants him to be white because that better fits the political narrative they are trying to artificially create. Many news articles have also claimed the neighborhood is "mostly white." This is also a lie. The neighborhood is only 49% white. It is over half non-white. All the way back on February 27th, the local Orlando Fox station interviewed the witness who dialed 911. Almost none of the thousands of articles since have mentioned any of the details described by the witness. Some, however, have attributed false statements to this witness. On March 16th, the Sanford police department released new details to the Orlando Sentinel. Once again, these details have been ignored or changed by the media.
The neighborhood this took place in has seen a lot of crime. Would you be surprised to learn that there were eight burglaries, nine thefts, and a shooting just in the past year? In fact, the local homeowners' association reports that George Zimmerman actually caught one thief and aided in the apprehension of other criminals. The Miami Herald wrote about this on March 17th. None of the thousands of articles and cable news segments that came after, thought this was important. http://www.examiner.com/charleston-conservative-in-charleston-sc/zimmerman-was-on-the-ground-being-punched-when-he-shot-trayvon-martin Man shot and killed in neighborhood altercation "The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John. John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot. "And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point." http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation Sanford Police Speak Out In Trayvon Martin Case - Video http://www.wesh.com/video/30696935/detail.html | ||
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Geosurface
United States4 Posts
I don't even know how to respond to a person like you. May I ask what state you live in? It sure will tell a lot about your character because right now I have nothing but hatred towards people like you and would love to see you in a racial profiled situation. I live in California, am White, and know what it's like in areas of high racism. My brother (who isn't racist) moved to a country part of Texas and when I was there for a week, I saw 2 black people. One time he was on the phone driving down the street and said "Holy shit, there is a black guy walking down the street. Everyone is slowing down and watching him." Because where he's at, black people don't generally walk down the street alone because they know what type of racist people live around there. You seem completely oblivious to racism in America as a whole, or are racist yourself if you think a 6'3'' 140lb man could beat up a man who had over 100lbs on him and a gun. Zimmerman is a pussy and deserves the death penalty, and if it were my son I would have already killed him myself. "A person like" me? I've only made a couple of posts on this board so far, and I dare say you probably don't know much about me yet. I'll give you some information to help you have a clearer picture of who I am, since you seem curious. I must say though, as long as we're making appraisals of one another, that you seem to be really caught up in the emotions of this case, less so the available facts... and that may make it difficult for us to have a conversation on this. I'm prepared to try though. I live in Washington state, I'm 32, white, and consider myself to be a die hard liberal. I have been old enough to vote in 3 presidential elections, and my votes were Gore, Kerry, Obama. I will be voting Obama again this year. My father wasn't around much when I was a kid, and my next door neighbor, a black man from a rougher background, became like a surrogate father to me when I was young. He was great, and helped me learn a lot about how to care for my dog when I got one, and built a club house for me and my friends, etc. When he died of cancer some years later, it really hit me hard. I'm sure so far this is sounding a lot like when people say "oh I have black friends!" but you came at me with some pretty high potency assumptions, and I feel it's merited to do what I can to dislodge that perception. I am pro-gay rights, including full marriage, though I'm not entirely sure that the govt has any business in marriages of any kind. Speaking of marriage, I am unmarried, with no children so far, but I am very serious about my current gf, so who knows. I have never owned a gun and have no plans to, I don't believe in strict gun control because I believe in strong personal freedoms, but of course there are always the bounds of reason. So some gun control, certainly. I think this case probably doesn't really directly relate to the "stand your ground" law but it made me aware of it for the first time and after reading of some other cases that DO appear related to that law, I'm feeling pretty sure that the law is stupid and needs to be repealed. I don't understand the fascination with guns but to each his own. I think Zimmerman was overzealous and should've handled the situation differently, and I'm open to reverting to the view I had when I first heard this story, which was more akin to your view, if the evidence supports it. Right now though, the mounting evidence I've been seeing has lead me to think that this is at least a case of "both of them behaved stupidly" and possibly even more on Trayvon's shoulders, because it sounds like he was giving Z a pretty vicious beating. Ultimately though, none of us were there and we can't be sure who started the fight, when the gun came out, when Trayvon became aware of the gun (if at all) whether there was a struggle for the gun, etc etc etc. So we'll see. | ||
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Kickboxer
Slovenia1308 Posts
On March 26 2012 20:16 Zaqwe wrote: You are the one who seems ignorant about racism in America, most of which is directed against Whites. And... he's back  | ||
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Zaqwe
591 Posts
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Batch
Sweden692 Posts
On March 26 2012 21:34 Zaqwe wrote: I'm glad you missed me. Zaqwe, just a curious question. Do you live in Sanford or know Zimmerman personally? 127 of your 129 posts are made in this thread. I get the feeling your accout was created just to discuss this topic. | ||
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Chilling5pr33
Germany518 Posts
But i dont get it. What is the target of this? Why should the media try to turn this into a race issue? For me this may be a case of a misunderstanding or a case of overeager law defender overstepping his rights. Investagation will hopefully reveal the truth but in my eyes this guy should not be specially protected (like police is). We cant just walk around and bring justice to the streets and thats so for good reasons. | ||
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