[H]PvP Robo vs. Pheonix

On March 05 2012 13:58 Reborn58 wrote:
Typically 3 gate robo does much better. you can punish phoenix is you chrono out 2 immortals and push, using obs for vision and expand behind. just leaving 3-4 stalkers behind or a few cannons can minimize damage.

Replays will allow further analysis

On March 05 2012 15:48 Xequecal wrote:
If they open stargate against robo you are significantly behind, there is no "good" answer. You can still win, but it's an uphill battle. You can't expand, because they can just push and kill you. If you attack them, they will just park at their easily defended ramp while their phoenix kill all your probes. If you go for blink, they can just expand as soon as they see the twilight council with their phoenix and you won't be able to do anything about it because you've wasted 750/450 (Robo, 1 immortal, council, blink) on stuff that is either now totally worthless or won't pay any dividends until over two minutes from now.

On March 05 2012 15:48 Xequecal wrote:
If they open stargate against robo you are significantly behind, there is no "good" answer. You can still win, but it's an uphill battle. You can't expand, because they can just push and kill you. If you attack them, they will just park at their easily defended ramp while their phoenix kill all your probes. If you go for blink, they can just expand as soon as they see the twilight council with their phoenix and you won't be able to do anything about it because you've wasted 750/450 (Robo, 1 immortal, council, blink) on stuff that is either now totally worthless or won't pay any dividends until over two minutes from now.

IMHO, the only "safe" PvP opener is 3 or 4 gates. If you place a robo, stargate, or council and they see this with their initial scouting probe, it's easy for them to just start the direct counter. Thus you cannot place any tech until your first stalker chases the probe away and this is now too late to beat 4 gate with anything less than 3 gates.

PvP is highly random and you can pretty much expect at least half your losses against players of equal skill to be build order losses. There's not much you can do about it. There are tons of risky builds like second gas at 17 supply into 1 or 2 gate tech, 2/3 gate opening with no sentries, 2 gate stargate, 1 gate FE, etc. All these builds either get horribly crushed by 4 gate or allow your opponent to see the tech and build the straight counter. (You can beat 4 gate with 1 gate robo but only if you start the robo before your first stalker is out, which means the opponent will see it and can make a stargate) However, if your opponent went with a "safe" opening like 3 gate with a sentry and delayed gas you are so far ahead with any of these openings it's very hard to lose. For ladder, where opponent don't know your play history, I would strongly recommend just 4 gating every game in PvP. You'll win every time against the risky builds and with some practice you can occasionally steal a game against 3 gate + sentry openings if they make a mistake.

On March 05 2012 15:58 recklessfire wrote:
your not "behind", you just cant be aggressive against the stargate player. I open robo all the time and when i see stargate, ill make a twilight council and go for blink, you DONT want to overmake stalkers; stargate openers often lead into a robo switch and they will produce non stop immortals if they see you have made way too many stalkers. If the stargate player stays on one base i suggest you do the same; The bigger the armies the more ineffective the phoenix are. However, if you see him expand, your gona neeed to expand as well. Remember your gona need a forge for cannon defense, not only for your mineral lines but also when you see a huge attack coming especially when he decides to attack when your expansion has just been placed down, you want to place some cannons in front of your natural if the stargate player tries to push you. 2-3 Cannons will next to your army will easily deflect any big attack the stargate player will try.

On March 05 2012 16:09 Yokoblue wrote:
You cant be more wrong... Seriously, there is no BIG randomness like there was in PvP before...
Like everybody in the thread said: Go twilight, robo if you want to go robo otherwise you're behind ... thats it.

If you want to see every post that is wrong in their suggestion (Collosus is the first LOL), look the PvP phoenix Thread.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=296637

Mid Master who open Phoenix EVERY PvP he plays...

On March 05 2012 16:20 Xequecal wrote:


There's no randomness? How can you claim that? 3 gate twilight is great against stargate, but if your opponent decided he's going to do a risky robo or expansion build that dies to 4 gate, you're just straight up dead.

On March 05 2012 16:24 Yokoblue wrote:
Ever heard of Twilight/Robo ?... the build that is neither ahead or behind any build... really...

Even Phoenix build is only behind 1 build... and that build is still counterable.. (4 gates blink) since you can always FF until you have your immortals (since if you go phoenix you usually follow with a quick robo)

IF PvP was that random... Why are there player who have around 70-75% winrate in the MU ?

On March 05 2012 16:30 Xequecal wrote:


Risky robo first openers absolutely smash twilight/robo. 1 gate robo opening crushes anything except 4 gate and stargate openings. If you place the robo before your first stalker is out, you can even beat 4 gate. However, this allows your opponent to see the robo with his probe, and immediately go for stargate, which is why it doesn't work against good players.

A stargate opening loses to twilight first, as well as to any fast expansion build. Of course, the FE can't beat 4 gate and the twilight first can't beat robo first, but like I said, stupidly random.

The reason pros can do well in PvP is because pro play is not ladder. If a player is known to open with a risky opening in the matchup, his opponents know this and can easily counter him. This means risky openings are less common and the matchups are more often more fair mirror builds. On ladder, your opponent has no idea if you do risky openings.

On March 05 2012 15:48 Xequecal wrote:
If they open stargate against robo you are significantly behind, there is no "good" answer. You can still win, but it's an uphill battle. You can't expand, because they can just push and kill you. If you attack them, they will just park at their easily defended ramp while their phoenix kill all your probes. If you go for blink, they can just expand as soon as they see the twilight council with their phoenix and you won't be able to do anything about it because you've wasted 750/450 (Robo, 1 immortal, council, blink) on stuff that is either now totally worthless or won't pay any dividends until over two minutes from now.

IMHO, the only "safe" PvP opener is 3 or 4 gates. If you place a robo, stargate, or council and they see this with their initial scouting probe, it's easy for them to just start the direct counter. Thus you cannot place any tech until your first stalker chases the probe away and this is now too late to beat 4 gate with anything less than 3 gates.

PvP is highly random and you can pretty much expect at least half your losses against players of equal skill to be build order losses. There's not much you can do about it. There are tons of risky builds like second gas at 17 supply into 1 or 2 gate tech, 2/3 gate opening with no sentries, 2 gate stargate, 1 gate FE, etc. All these builds either get horribly crushed by 4 gate or allow your opponent to see the tech and build the straight counter. (You can beat 4 gate with 1 gate robo but only if you start the robo before your first stalker is out, which means the opponent will see it and can make a stargate) However, if your opponent went with a "safe" opening like 3 gate with a sentry and delayed gas you are so far ahead with any of these openings it's very hard to lose. For ladder, where opponent don't know your play history, I would strongly recommend just 4 gating every game in PvP. You'll win every time against the risky builds and with some practice you can occasionally steal a game against 3 gate + sentry openings if they make a mistake.

On March 05 2012 16:38 Yokoblue wrote:
Risky Robo openers dont Auto-Win vs Twilight-Robo, if the twilight user only go for zealots instead of a 2x3 stalkers when he sees that you have a really early robo...

Stargate doesnt auto lose to twilight first. If you're good with FF and go quick robo after stargate (which you should otherwise you lose to blink all in and dts) you can hold the ramp long enough to get an immortal. Once you have that immortal, hell need to blink on your zealot to enter your base so you can fight him with the immo + zealots + another immortal on the way. Its close but you can.

+ its not because a player is known to go stargate that hell go... So the other point doesnt make any sense.
You can say its random but I really dont think so... Just like people find ZvZ random and its not if you understand it well (Nestea)

On March 05 2012 13:48 orangejulius wrote:
I'm a plat player but currently playing diamond players. I do almost the same opening as you and when I see phoenix I immediately get a forge to put a cannon at each base and I also expand at the same time. Their heavy investment in phoenix won't be able to kill you outright so you can get away with an earlier expansion then go back to robo, get blink and colossus. Then when you max you can pretty much win because he's got useless phoenix.

On March 05 2012 13:58 Reborn58 wrote:
Typically 3 gate robo does much better. you can punish phoenix is you chrono out 2 immortals and push, using obs for vision and expand behind. just leaving 3-4 stalkers behind or a few cannons can minimize damage.

Replays will allow further analysis

On March 05 2012 14:00 brain_storm wrote:
Well I'm a master player and I've had a lot of experience with these kind of openings and I think the best response to the situation you described is to get a few more sentrys and try to hide and spread them as much as possible so you can forcefield the ramp, then get a fast expo after you've held their push and transition to templar/archon fast.

@orangejulius collo transition is not so smart versus a player who opens with phoenix, considering he can scout the collo and make 6-7 phx before you can push out.

On March 05 2012 14:09 aBstractx wrote:
as soon as i see pheonix i just expand. if you dont want to do that just make sure you get your forcefield off before he lifts your sentry. or open blink &robo, or even learn how to open pheonix yhourself. high masters here

On March 05 2012 14:12 SlackerSC wrote:

I'm not sure this is the best advice.. The phoenix will just lift up your immortals and then it's gateway V gateway. The phoenix player will also be producing out of 3 gates..

I'd say that if you see phoenix you should just take your expansion and defend with zealot stalker plus a few immortals while getting out Archon, charge/blink and upgrades.

On March 05 2012 14:36 PhysicsAP wrote:
what i would do against pheonixes is to put down cannon near the mineral patch and expand. then poke at their front door so that they might not troll you with pheonixes
while you poke, throw down your tech in response to pheonixes and their composition

On March 05 2012 14:40 Skyro wrote:
I open stargate in PvP all the time. You absolutely do not want to expand or go for Immortal/Colossus upon scouting Phoenix. The best "counter" to stargate play is actually some variant of a fast expansion build as phoenix builds can't punish you early on, but expanding AFTER you see phoenixes already out on the field is too late as they can and will just push you and with proper control will roll over you every time.

The best response after you already have your robo would be a twilight council as you are already doing. Camp your probe line with your army and don't let your workers or stray units get picked off. Keep your obs on their army so they don't sneak up on you and keep tabs on if they expanded or not.

Honestly though stargate openers pretty much counter robo openers so you should probably ditch the robo opener. IMO going twilight -> robo is much stronger if you favor obs-blink (which is what I assume you are doing because 1-base colossus is a horrible build). You can both fend off and do damage to a phoenix player with a fast obs-blink build, and in mid-diamond you could probably just win with a fast pure blink build by blinking up his ramp if they aren't on the ball with FF'ing their ramp constantly while they chrono out some immortals.

On March 05 2012 15:13 Espion9 wrote:
What i like to do is get blink and since i already have a robo i can check if he's getting cannons or a robo of his own. A lot of low masters players forget to get detection and you can simply hide a dark shrine somewhere on the map and do a ton of damage. If you expand and he's going with a mix of chargelot archon in the mid game because he wants to break your expo you will probably need to sim city because force field won't save you against that. Stargate is a really good build if you're not able to punish it early it can get out of control fast.

On March 05 2012 15:48 Xequecal wrote:
If they open stargate against robo you are significantly behind, there is no "good" answer. You can still win, but it's an uphill battle. You can't expand, because they can just push and kill you. If you attack them, they will just park at their easily defended ramp while their phoenix kill all your probes. If you go for blink, they can just expand as soon as they see the twilight council with their phoenix and you won't be able to do anything about it because you've wasted 750/450 (Robo, 1 immortal, council, blink) on stuff that is either now totally worthless or won't pay any dividends until over two minutes from now.

IMHO, the only "safe" PvP opener is 3 or 4 gates. If you place a robo, stargate, or council and they see this with their initial scouting probe, it's easy for them to just start the direct counter. Thus you cannot place any tech until your first stalker chases the probe away and this is now too late to beat 4 gate with anything less than 3 gates.

PvP is highly random and you can pretty much expect at least half your losses against players of equal skill to be build order losses. There's not much you can do about it. There are tons of risky builds like second gas at 17 supply into 1 or 2 gate tech, 2/3 gate opening with no sentries, 2 gate stargate, 1 gate FE, etc. All these builds either get horribly crushed by 4 gate or allow your opponent to see the tech and build the straight counter. (You can beat 4 gate with 1 gate robo but only if you start the robo before your first stalker is out, which means the opponent will see it and can make a stargate) However, if your opponent went with a "safe" opening like 3 gate with a sentry and delayed gas you are so far ahead with any of these openings it's very hard to lose. For ladder, where opponent don't know your play history, I would strongly recommend just 4 gating every game in PvP. You'll win every time against the risky builds and with some practice you can occasionally steal a game against 3 gate + sentry openings if they make a mistake.

On March 05 2012 15:58 recklessfire wrote:


your not "behind", you just cant be aggressive against the stargate player. I open robo all the time and when i see stargate, ill make a twilight council and go for blink, you DONT want to overmake stalkers; stargate openers often lead into a robo switch and they will produce non stop immortals if they see you have made way too many stalkers. If the stargate player stays on one base i suggest you do the same; The bigger the armies the more ineffective the phoenix are. However, if you see him expand, your gona neeed to expand as well. Remember your gona need a forge for cannon defense, not only for your mineral lines but also when you see a huge attack coming especially when he decides to attack when your expansion has just been placed down, you want to place some cannons in front of your natural if the stargate player tries to push you. 2-3 Cannons will next to your army will easily deflect any big attack the stargate player will try.

i usually open one gate robo, and NO the guy wont see my tech because my BO allows me to get a zealot stalker and its still safe vs 4 gate.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=302117 ---> this will deflect any 12 gate oriented 4 gates.

edit: when you make the first observer and you send it out, you want to make an immortal but with no chronoboost. On most maps your observer will reach his base before the immortal is done, if you see stargate you cancel the immortal. Against anything else its ok to let it finish but its up to you. DO NOT make immortals vs phoenix play, any 4 gate phoenix aggression will most likely kill you, because the immortal is one unit thats worth two stalkers and you'll have other gateway units nullified and the stargate player will have more attacking units.

On March 05 2012 16:03 Skiblet wrote:
I'm a master player and unfortunately for you robo openings are what phoenix directly counters, it doesn't mean you lose tho. just expand as early as you can and chrono out 2-3 immortals and lots of gateway units, his ground army will be much weaker.

On March 05 2012 16:50 Xequecal wrote:


How does the twilight player see the robo? Remember, risky build that dies to 4 gate. That means the robo goes down after your probe is chased out. You don't know that he went robo until you see an actual immortal, at which point it's far too late. If he did the build that puts down the robo before the first stalker is out, and you for some reason still open on twilight instead of stargate, you are in an even worse position. His gas lead will be absolutely immense, he can just put his obs over your natural to check for an expansion while pumping out immortals and zealots, or even 1 base colossus, good luck winning.



Auto-lose? No, but you're really behind. You'll have to keep your phoenix at home to help defend which means you can't hit his econ, and you'll be really, really behind in gas after making a bunch of phoenix, stargate, and sentries.



It's not random at the top levels of play because all the stupid risky builds are not really viable like they are on ladder. Everyone opens on 3 gates minimum before tech in top-level PvP. You don't see stuff like 1 gate robo because if your opponents know you do this regularly they can easily get free wins off you.

Pretty much everything in this post is completely wrong. 4 gate can be defended with 1 or 2 gate builds consistently; these builds are not risky at all. In addition, if you're playing a defensive opening, you should be able to deny probe scouts every time. You can also beat 4 gate with 1 gate robo if you build the robo after your first stalker.

On March 05 2012 16:13 Xequecal wrote:


You are extremely behind if your opponent opens stargate against robo. Twilight council into blink is the best response, but it's still far behind. Your opponent will see the council with his phoenix. At this point, he can just expand immediately. What are you going to do? You're 750 minerals and 450 gas behind him. Like you said, you can't possibly break the expo. You can expand yourself once you see him expanding, but you are still far behind. First you have to deal with the problem that at literally any point he can just cancel his expansion, warp in an extra round of units 10 feet away from your natural with those minerals, and walk up and kill you. Second, even if he doesn't do this and you both expand, your expansion will be online significantly later than his, and he is going to get many free probe kills with his phoenix as there is no way you can effectively defend both mineral lines against them. If you're forced to make cannons to defend anything, this puts you even further in the hole as it's more minerals totally wasted.

It is certainly possible to win, there's no doubt about that, but you're very behind and need to outplay your opponent significantly or take huge risks and hope you don't get punished.

On March 05 2012 16:20 Xequecal wrote:


There's no randomness? How can you claim that? 3 gate twilight is great against stargate, but if your opponent decided he's going to do a risky robo or expansion build that dies to 4 gate, you're just straight up dead.

On March 05 2012 16:24 Yokoblue wrote:


Ever heard of Twilight/Robo ?... the build that is neither ahead or behind any build... really...

Even Phoenix build is only behind 1 build... and that build is still counterable.. (4 gates blink) since you can always FF until you have your immortals (since if you go phoenix you usually follow with a quick robo)

IF PvP was that random... Why are there player who have around 70-75% winrate in the MU ?

On March 05 2012 16:30 Xequecal wrote:


Risky robo first openers absolutely smash twilight/robo. 1 gate robo opening crushes anything except 4 gate and stargate openings. If you place the robo before your first stalker is out, you can even beat 4 gate. However, this allows your opponent to see the robo with his probe, and immediately go for stargate, which is why it doesn't work against good players.

A stargate opening loses to twilight first, as well as to any fast expansion build. Of course, the FE can't beat 4 gate and the twilight first can't beat robo first, but like I said, stupidly random.

The reason pros can do well in PvP is because pro play is not ladder. If a player is known to open with a risky opening in the matchup, his opponents know this and can easily counter him. This means risky openings are less common and the matchups are more often more fair mirror builds. On ladder, your opponent has no idea if you do risky openings.

On March 05 2012 16:38 Yokoblue wrote:


Risky Robo openers dont Auto-Win vs Twilight-Robo, if the twilight user only go for zealots instead of a 2x3 stalkers when he sees that you have a really early robo...

Stargate doesnt auto lose to twilight first. If you're good with FF and go quick robo after stargate (which you should otherwise you lose to blink all in and dts) you can hold the ramp long enough to get an immortal. Once you have that immortal, hell need to blink on your zealot to enter your base so you can fight him with the immo + zealots + another immortal on the way. Its close but you can.

Its not because 1 player went for a tech that he need to attack. All you're saying is that if the player all in you with a "Counter build" you are in deep shit but its not necessarily true.

+ its not because a player is known to go stargate that hell go... So the other point doesnt make any sense.
You can say its random but I really dont think so... Just like people find ZvZ random and its not if you understand it well (Nestea)

On March 05 2012 16:45 Skyro wrote:


I don't think you've fully explored the various early game options for protoss yet. You can hold a 4-gate with various 2-gate openings (3-stalker, 2-gate early sentry variant, etc.), and getting your tech structure after your first stalker isn't "too late" to stop a 4-gate. There was even a thread about holding a 4-gate with 1-gate posted on these forums a while back. The only time where you need to go at least 3 gates are on maps w/ no ramp.

On March 05 2012 16:50 Xequecal wrote:


How does the twilight player see the robo? Remember, risky build that dies to 4 gate. That means the robo goes down after your probe is chased out. You don't know that he went robo until you see an actual immortal, at which point it's far too late. If he did the build that puts down the robo before the first stalker is out, and you for some reason still open on twilight instead of stargate, you are in an even worse position. His gas lead will be absolutely immense, he can just put his obs over your natural to check for an expansion while pumping out immortals and zealots, or even 1 base colossus, good luck winning.



Auto-lose? No, but you're really behind. You'll have to keep your phoenix at home to help defend which means you can't hit his econ, and you'll be really, really behind in gas after making a bunch of phoenix, stargate, and sentries.



It's not random at the top levels of play because all the stupid risky builds are not really viable like they are on ladder. Everyone opens on 3 gates minimum before tech in top-level PvP. You don't see stuff like 1 gate robo because if your opponents know you do this regularly they can easily get free wins off you.

On March 05 2012 17:00 Yokoblue wrote:


Why would I keep my phoenix in my base in case of an attack since ive got complete scout every 15 sec... and I have the fastest unit in the game... Even on Shattered I have the time to come back in time to defend with the phoenix...

You're phoneix are never a waste of ressource and you will always harass his mineral line or probe building buildings or simply snipe a zealot or sentry that is off. (They can be a little bit in a counter all in but in every phoneix guide you see you dont usually die to the all in.) You dont have to build a lot of sentry until you actually see the push coming... You have 1 sentry with almost full energy and 100 gas on the next phoenix that you can take instead of making one...

Stupid risky build are made on GSL every day... Where the player is ridiculously greedy etc... plz...

On March 05 2012 17:06 Xequecal wrote:


This I really want to see. I've spent a huge amount of time trying to make this work and I just can't. If they boost warpgates 3 times they can warpin 140 seconds after your core finishes, assuming you both finish simultaneously. Stalker takes 32 seconds to come out, (1 boost) robo takes 65 seconds, first immortal takes 55 seconds. (no boosts left if you CB warpgates 3 times) You have 1 sentry and can warp in a second, but two forcefields is never enough stall time to get the immortal out and kill their two pylons by your ramp before they can move up for vision and get a high ground warpin.

On March 05 2012 17:16 NrGmonk wrote:
You don't need an immortal out to defend the initial wave of units. Read these topics for more information.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=302117
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=305331
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=284255

On March 05 2012 17:38 Xequecal wrote:


I've read the first thread on beating 4-gate with 1-gate openers. The issue is these builds have tight timings and rely on scouting very late to hit the timings. He even makes clear right out that these builds rely on not scouting before 17 supply. The problem is with the current map pool, proxy gates are a threat on every single map except shipyard and valley, so you have to scout on 12 at the latest. I've tried it with a 12 scout and it might be me but you don't get your third or fourth sentry in time against a 12-gate 4 gate, and if he did a 10 or 11 gate you just have no chance.