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On January 06 2012 00:45 ZenithM wrote:
Great point about regular command centers. It's indeed exactly the same. Certain techs in the game are expected to be used and replace obsolete ones, that's how Blizzard designed it.
On January 06 2012 00:38 Raif wrote:
I think this is like saying that the command center is useless,
I can see the lack of use, but I think it is fin as it is, you can still use them for rushes and such.
It is nothing like the command center... A command center allows you to produce SCVs, an orbital command allows you to use mules and scans, it does not give you the ability to produce SCVs, the command center does that. The orbital command is just an add on in disguise... Remember comsat stations in BW? Yeah they just gave them little yellow robots that mine shit tons of minerals really fast.
Also, it probably isn't a good idea to base a discussion about a game mechanic by saying "hey, it works for the orbital command! That means it must be ok!" because the mule is probably the next worst designed game mechanic haha.
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My take on this is to buff gateway units (or add an fast cheap harrass unit), and make wargate a later tech (such as requiring twilight council and costing 200/200). I really don't get why blizzard not choosed that safer way, am I missing something obvious ?
For me warpgate is one of the most disappointing thing in SC2. It forces gateway unit to be weaker than the other races counterparts, it forces the removal of the templar amulet, renders gateway a useless building, makes the PvP matchup so particular and force the intoduction of the cumbersome Arc Shield in HotS. As a protoss, I beg for a nerf on WG !
Removing rally time is so game breaking in a RTS that is really risky to try to mess around !
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There's been a lot of discussion about this, as well as ideas but in the end the mechanic is fine as it is and is unlikely to be changed (maybe something in LotV but definitely not in the nearer future).
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I personnaly would like to see an increase of the morphing time of the warp gate.
I'm not talking about balance but game desing, obviously if you increase the morph time, you have to compensate it somehow for balance sake.
But really, the fact that the morphing time is so much smaller than the cooldown or the production time of a gateway, it just generate cheesy play relying on timing attacks after the extra round of units you get with morphing.
And if this morphing time because larger than a production cycle. Morphing would actually become a decision.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On January 06 2012 00:46 Chill wrote:
So here was my thought process:
- Everyone wants warpgates but you can't start with the technology since it's too good.
- Maybe once you've researched it, you should only be able to build warpgates?
* But then they would build too quickly (no opening time) so that's stupid.
* Maybe they should stay the same but automatically open so you have no choice.
~ But that's stupid too because there will be some cases where you need the units NOW and will favour chronoing a gateway unit instead of opening the warpgate - there's no reason to lose that choice.
So, in conclusion, the gateway / warpgate dynamic is stupid but it's the best solution I think.
That's nonsense, because opening the warpgate will get you the unit faster.
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Canada13426 Posts
On January 06 2012 01:05 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 00:46 Chill wrote:
So here was my thought process:
- Everyone wants warpgates but you can't start with the technology since it's too good.
- Maybe once you've researched it, you should only be able to build warpgates?
* But then they would build too quickly (no opening time) so that's stupid.
* Maybe they should stay the same but automatically open so you have no choice.
~ But that's stupid too because there will be some cases where you need the units NOW and will favour chronoing a gateway unit instead of opening the warpgate - there's no reason to lose that choice.
So, in conclusion, the gateway / warpgate dynamic is stupid but it's the best solution I think. That's nonsense, because opening the warpgate will get you the unit faster.
Yeah sorry chill, its still faster to chrono the WG as it changes as it will make any unit faster than the gateway would. You can chrono the GW to turn into a WG faster and reduce the cooldown as well. Cooldown begins the moment the unit starts warping in not when the unit is done warping in.
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On January 06 2012 00:55 Kovaz wrote:
I'm not sure if I like the idea of making them produce more slowly, since that will just make people go for a 5-warpgate instead of a 4-warpgate and get the same production. Instead, what I'd like to see is something along the lines of an extra 25 mineral cost for units out of a warpgate. That way, it becomes a choice between cheap, delayed reinforcements, or expensive, immediate reinforcements. Also, this could be coupled with a slight buff to gateway units, which would make protoss feel more robust throughout the game, and that would facilitate nerfing/redesigning units like the colossus.
What about if warpgates required energy or something to warp in? They would still have cooldowns so you can't just save up full energy and double your army all of a sudden or something, but this would allow Protoss to use warpgates for drop defense, harassment, and even just for faster production.
Here's another thing you Protoss players would like to hear, YOU COULD HAVE KHAYDARIN AMULET BACK!!! =)
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On January 06 2012 01:05 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 00:46 Chill wrote:
So here was my thought process:
- Everyone wants warpgates but you can't start with the technology since it's too good.
- Maybe once you've researched it, you should only be able to build warpgates?
* But then they would build too quickly (no opening time) so that's stupid.
* Maybe they should stay the same but automatically open so you have no choice.
~ But that's stupid too because there will be some cases where you need the units NOW and will favour chronoing a gateway unit instead of opening the warpgate - there's no reason to lose that choice.
So, in conclusion, the gateway / warpgate dynamic is stupid but it's the best solution I think. That's nonsense, because opening the warpgate will get you the unit faster.
Not if you want 2 sentries out of your gate... Or maybe, it's the same.
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On January 06 2012 01:03 HaXXspetten wrote:
What about adding a lategame nexus research, let's say it requires templar archives or something, that decreases the production time by 5 seconds for all gateway units, but not the respective cooldown for warpgates. That way, with or without chronoboost, gateways would always have a slightly shorter production time and at least be an option. Still think that even so, warpgates would be superior in almost all scenarios, but it would be nice to give toss an option to use gateways in at least some sort of situation, because now they're totally useless after warpgate is researched, no matter what the circumstances are.
i don't thinkt any kind of cooldown or buildtime change past early or early/mid game would change anything
people would just build 1 or 2 or whatever more warpgates to avoid the switching (which would cost time everytime you go from offensive/harrass to defensive)
i agree it's a bit strange that the gateway is even there after the research and i wouldnt be surprised if at some point in the future that (like chill said) oce warpgate is researched you either just build only warpgates or the gate automatically opens
but atm i don't really see a problem with it as it just works the way it is
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On January 06 2012 00:45 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 00:38 Raif wrote:
I think this is like saying that the command center is useless,
I can see the lack of use, but I think it is fin as it is, you can still use them for rushes and such. Great point about regular command centers. It's indeed exactly the same. Certain techs in the game are expected to be used and replace obsolete ones, that's how Blizzard designed it.
No it's not.
Orbital Commands and Planetary Fortresses are an upgrade that cost money for each individual command centre. It's fine to have the original building, because it implies that if you don't have the money to upgrade it you can still use it (I realise this has no practical bearing on the game at all, this is purely a game design thing).
It's the fact that you can switch warpgates between warpgate and gateway mode that bugs me. It implies that both have some kind of inherent benefit, otherwise why would you want to ever have them in gateway mode at all?. Either every gateway you have after the warpgate upgrade is complete should just automatically become a warpgate, or there should be a cost to change a gateway into a warpgate (so, for example, you could still build units from the gateway and save money if you wanted to). Or, like people are suggesting, the training time on a Gateway should be shorter than that of a warpgate.
I would liken the current state of affairs more to, say, having to press a button on each and every single one of your units to physically install a +1 upgrade even after it completes. Having +1 is better than having +0: having warpgates is better than having gateways. The changing mechanic serves no purpose and shouldn't be there.
EDIT: To clarify, I realise this isn't an issue that affects balance at all, but it's a game design thing that I think should really be looked at. Feel free to care or not care about it, but it's just a little thing that irks me.
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I've, since beta, thought that gateways should make units faster than warpgates.
After thinking about it a bit, I think there should be a parallel upgrade to warpgate technology. But, instead of turning a gateway into a warpgate, it would just decrease building time of units from a gateway so that they would actually build faster than from a warpgate. This would bring another decision for the toss to make, allowing more builds, and still keep the noobs in bronze from dying to 2 gate proxy.
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Compare this with command center and orbital command. I see no Terran complaining that cc is useless compared to oc. I think warpgate is same as well - it is much better than normal gateway and there is nothing wrong with disregarding gateway after warpgate is researched.
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The current time of the gateway needs to be swapped with the warpgate so there is some sort of downside to warping in your units. It would be better for the game as a whole because it would encourage better macro out of protoss players.
Instead of simply warping in units 24/7 a protoss would turn gateways into warpgates when they are pushing out so they can warp in, but when they are macroing up it would be better to turn them back into a gateway.
The current way protoss macro is too forgiving. The only units that are qued are workers and tech units that you only get in small numbers to begin with (less than 10).
I can't tell you how many times a protoss will forget to warp in units normally and when a drop ship is incoming..... anecdotal I know, but I think that we've all had our fair share of rage at warpgate when doing some sort of harass or counter push. Kill the protoss army?
Let me just warp in units to where the drop ship is heading!!! /sadface
The defenders advantage being brought with a protoss army through pylons and warp prisms is overpowered and it hasn't been changed because blizzard is more concerned with how a race, "Feels" to the common player.
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On January 06 2012 01:11 mrlie3 wrote:
Compare this with command center and orbital command. I see no Terran complaining that cc is useless compared to oc. I think warpgate is same as well - it is much better than normal gateway and there is nothing wrong with disregarding gateway after warpgate is researched.
The cc is not free, it costs production time and ressources. So yeah, it has to be better.
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does it work..... yes it does, proven itself to not be imba.
is it a good game mechanic, idk, but it works, nerfing warpgate or gateways for no reason seems stupid for the concept that "warpgates shouldn't be a straight upgrade".
This seems odd to me, why shouldn't it be a straight upgrade, there is nothing wrong with that.
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I think people are forgetting that the vanilla CC can hold 5 SCV's while the other two versions PF/OC cannot. While that is just a minor "advantage," it displays the point of most people in that the original Non-WG gateway should have a benefit or avenue of use other than, "Oh, it's just a placeholder for WG and is eclipsed immediately afterwards."
I think the most viable advantages to give a regular gateway is:
1) Exclusive units - Some cannot be warped in and MUST be rallied directly from gateway (maybe in HotS or LotV where bigger units start coming out of the gateway?)
2) Faster unit build time for regular gateway
3) Stronger units come out of regular gateway (attk dmg is higher)
-or-
Units with shield come out of gateway vs. Units without shield come out of WG
I know that implementing another facet to the protoss meta would just mean more countless months of headaches for SC2 in general, but I think that in the end it would benefit the game greatly. Derno, I think it really warrants a good, comprehensive look by the uppers!
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Katowice25012 Posts
This topic is really more suited for Blizzard than us.
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Calgary26004 Posts
On January 06 2012 01:06 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 01:05 marvellosity wrote:On January 06 2012 00:46 Chill wrote:
So here was my thought process:
- Everyone wants warpgates but you can't start with the technology since it's too good.
- Maybe once you've researched it, you should only be able to build warpgates?
* But then they would build too quickly (no opening time) so that's stupid.
* Maybe they should stay the same but automatically open so you have no choice.
~ But that's stupid too because there will be some cases where you need the units NOW and will favour chronoing a gateway unit instead of opening the warpgate - there's no reason to lose that choice.
So, in conclusion, the gateway / warpgate dynamic is stupid but it's the best solution I think. That's nonsense, because opening the warpgate will get you the unit faster. Yeah sorry chill, its still faster to chrono the WG as it changes as it will make any unit faster than the gateway would. You can chrono the GW to turn into a WG faster and reduce the cooldown as well. Cooldown begins the moment the unit starts warping in not when the unit is done warping in.
That's true I'm dumb. I guess they should auto-open then! Self-defeated!
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9935 Posts
maybe have warpgates significantly easier to kill than gateways? makes sense lore-wise, and gives a strong short range weakness for something with infinite range. it'd be cool to see warpgates closing up defensively when a drop comes so that their harder gateway shell can tank it. i actually really like this idea wow i'm a genius!!!!!
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EPT
