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On January 06 2012 00:39 discobaas wrote:
My opinion: it's ridiculous, it should only be possible with a warp prism or within a certain radius from a Nexus or something like that. Also it breaks late-game, especially, but not only, vs T, where the Protoss warps in 20 new units instantly after a battle while the opponent has to wait for ages. But yeah they're so used to this that they will most likely demand some silly buff in exchange, which I haven't thought of yet. I genuinely hope it gets fixed some time, because PvX matchups are awful to watch.
As I thought. This would turn into a thread of T and Z whining about warpgate. 
As to the OP. The mechanic is not useless just because it is not used during the entire game. You could say a barracks without a tech lab or reactor is useless with that kind of logic. Or even better: The Command Center Should people get rewarded with faster SCV production for not choosing to get an orbital or pf? Come on. This is going nowhere!
The gateway is used to put on early pressure and is a way to reduce the production ability of protoss at the beginning. It is an essential step in balancing towards the metagame. Also, there are a lot of play styles and builds that use no or very late Warpgate (e.g. WhiteRa's stargate play)
This thread is going to turn ugly very soon and end in a loop of balance discussion by people who don't have the required expertise.
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There was a point where you could actually increase your production rate by quite a bit if you could transform your gateways back and forth, but Blizzard decided to "fix" the bug, which was a terrible decision imo.
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Calgary26004 Posts
So here was my thought process:
- Everyone wants warpgates but you can't start with the technology since it's too good.
- Maybe once you've researched it, you should only be able to build warpgates?
* But then they would build too quickly (no opening time) so that's stupid.
* Maybe they should stay the same but automatically open so you have no choice.
~ But that's stupid too because there will be some cases where you need the units NOW and will favour chronoing a gateway unit instead of opening the warpgate - there's no reason to lose that choice.
So, in conclusion, the gateway / warpgate dynamic is stupid but it's the best solution I think.
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On January 06 2012 00:44 Hoon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 00:38 aderum wrote:On January 06 2012 00:34 Hoon wrote:On January 06 2012 00:29 JOJOsc2news wrote:
This looks like you have been facing a lot of warp in harrassment and now you want warpgate to be nerfed.
I think the mechanic is fine as it is, especially with mechanics like inject and reactors for the other races. The problem is that there is a mechanic that is completely useless on the game (gateway). The only use of a gateway is to morph it into a warpgate. In game design, when there's something as 'useless' as the gateway, it means it is badly designed. Maybe if they make build time with gateways faster, so the player has to choose between faster production or warp in anywhere... But it isnt useless, its used in the early game in many different forms of expanding and putting pressure on. Just because its not used all game long doesnt make it worthless. That's is the problem. It is used only in the early game. No one thinks about going back to gateway later. Blizzard noticed this problem in WoW. There were some spells there were used only at low levels, so they reworked then/removed them from the game.
Maybe the entire problem is that you have to manually switch to Warp Gate and you have the option to switch back. If the upgrade worked more like weapons/armor/shields, this issue wouldn't have even arisen. Upon completing Warp Gate research, all Gateways turn into Warp Gates as soon as possible, including newly constructed Gateways, with no option to revert. Afterall, you don't have to manually click upgrades on every single new unit, and you can't un-upgrade individual units. I think Warp Gate is meant to be more like that - a permanent, always on upgrade.
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On January 06 2012 00:34 Hoon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 00:29 JOJOsc2news wrote:
This looks like you have been facing a lot of warp in harrassment and now you want warpgate to be nerfed.
I think the mechanic is fine as it is, especially with mechanics like inject and reactors for the other races. The problem is that there is a mechanic that is completely useless on the game (gateway). The only use of a gateway is to morph it into a warpgate. In game design, when there's something as 'useless' as the gateway, it means it is badly designed. Maybe if they make build time with gateways faster, so the player has to choose between faster production or warp in anywhere...
Imagine the power of the proxy 2 gate...
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I think a better way of looking at it is that Blizzard would prefer it if the Protoss could build straight warpgates instead of dithering with gateways at all. But obviously that would be crazy imbalanced so they put in this delay in the game before you can get warpgates.
Much like how you don't start with an Orbital Command or Pfort but you'd obviously want them instead of CC.
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On January 06 2012 00:28 darkness wrote:
Protoss isn't in a great state to be nerfed even one bit. Be careful with your suggestions. ^_^
It's not about balance really, it is about game design, and I definitely agree with the OP. I actually made a thread long ago (back in beta) about this, but it got shot down at the time because back then there was a whole lot of balance bitching and stuff =(
Like I said though, it really has nothing to do with balance as much as it does with game design and actual game play. For example, imagine how much bearable PvP would be if the 4gate never existed? Or if it did, it would be a much riskier build then it was and much easier to defend. The reason I say this is because if warpgate wasn't the primary means of creating units for Protoss, that means it would have to be limited in some way, maybe warpgates need energy perhaps (this is hypothetical so just go with it  ), once the energy runs out the 4gate is done. Since time is an extremely critical factor of the success of a 4gate in this scenario, then the defending player would simply have to stall with sentries while building up an army of zealots/immortals or something. Doesn't this make a ton more sense then all of the 4gate vs 4gate shenanigans that we saw for months, that was fixed by making weird artificial changes to the game like changing ramp vision, pylon range, etc?
Also, it is just kinda bad to have an UPGRADE that is required literally every single game, is researched at the same exact time (90% of the time it is right when your core finishes, some stargate openings are the other 10%), no matter the matchup or the strategy. The only other one I can think of is the Orbital Command, but that is Terran's macro mechanic so that makes much more sense. I just think that having an upgrade that is that necessary really restricts the player from doing a variety of strategies. For example, if regular gateways were Protoss' primary means of producing units, would a fast +1 air attack strategy be viable? Maybe in some situations it would be, but we will never know because if the Protoss player does that they will probably die.
As a final note, doesn't it piss people off that Protoss seems to be so revolvent around timing attacks? As a Zerg player, it definitely pisses me off . The reason for this is because of warpgate and the fact that it significantly hinders an opponents defensive advantage, seeing as you can just warp in directly outside of their base. I think the game would be much better off if these attacks were harder to sustain (i.e. less effective if your opponent is prepared, but still viable), and macro Protoss was more viable and less passive.
Anyway, that is my thoughts on it all, hopefully this will be changed someday, ideally HotS, but that's pretty unrealistic. Maybe in the next expansion or something.
Edit: On January 06 2012 00:37 zedi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 00:34 Hoon wrote:On January 06 2012 00:29 JOJOsc2news wrote:
This looks like you have been facing a lot of warp in harrassment and now you want warpgate to be nerfed.
I think the mechanic is fine as it is, especially with mechanics like inject and reactors for the other races. The problem is that there is a mechanic that is completely useless on the game (gateway). The only use of a gateway is to morph it into a warpgate. In game design, when there's something as 'useless' as the gateway, it means it is badly designed. Maybe if they make build time with gateways faster, so the player has to choose between faster production or warp in anywhere... The point is that it's an early game mechanic. It should become useless after.
How does this make sense? Name another "early game mechanic" that becomes useless later in the game? I can't think of a single one.
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On January 06 2012 00:48 iaguz wrote:
I think a better way of looking at it is that Blizzard would prefer it if the Protoss could build straight warpgates instead of dithering with warpgates at all. But obviously that would be crazy imbalanced so they put in this delay in the game before you can get warpgates.
Much like how you don't start with an Orbital Command or Pfort but you'd obviously want them instead of CC.
Exactly my point!
Very well put!
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On January 06 2012 00:42 MetalSlug wrote:
I agree that Gateway units should produce faster than Warpgated units.
its just stupid that gateways dont have any purpose as soon as warpgates are avaible
the same can be said for "naked" rax there is no point in having those if a addon is available
if warpgate available from second 1 wouldnt be extremly op then i'm sure gateways wouldn't even be in the game. the research is just a way to delay it's availability and it's a way to further differentiate the races
and the argument "they cant buff gateway units because of warpgate" is only partially true in reallity its"...because of the rest of the race" gateway units would need to be buffed a lot to be able to deal effectivly with all kind of early aggression, drops,.... and buffed gateway units would mean every t3 would be way op the hole race would need to be changed
and actually i like that every race focuses on a different army approach
with terran units of equal power, protoss "meat" units and very strong key tech units and zerg masses of units
buffed gateway units would in my eyes make protoss more similar to terran
edit
I think a better way of looking at it is that Blizzard would prefer it if the Protoss could build straight warpgates instead of dithering with gateways at all. But obviously that would be crazy imbalanced so they put in this delay in the game before you can get warpgates.
Much like how you don't start with an Orbital Command or Pfort but you'd obviously want them instead of CC.
exactly this
pf or orbital from the start would be op
the same for stim and a lot of other key upgrades that are meant to be researched
the research is just a way to control the timing
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I really don't see the problem with warpgates. They are just fine as they are now
On January 06 2012 00:48 iaguz wrote:
I think a better way of looking at it is that Blizzard would prefer it if the Protoss could build straight warpgates instead of dithering with warpgates at all. But obviously that would be crazy imbalanced so they put in this delay in the game before you can get warpgates.
Much like how you don't start with an Orbital Command or Pfort but you'd obviously want them instead of CC.
This probably summarizes it
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On January 06 2012 00:46 Chill wrote:
So here was my thought process:
- Everyone wants warpgates but you can't start with the technology since it's too good.
- Maybe once you've researched it, you should only be able to build warpgates?
* But then they would build too quickly (no opening time) so that's stupid.
* Maybe they should stay the same but automatically open so you have no choice.
~ But that's stupid too because there will be some cases where you need the units NOW and will favour chronoing a gateway unit instead of opening the warpgate - there's no reason to lose that choice.
So, in conclusion, the gateway / warpgate dynamic is stupid but it's the best solution I think.
tbh I dont know why anyone would want warpgates its a fundamentally flawed mechanic (removes defenders advantage etc). ofc if they removed it toss gateway units would have to be rebalanced.
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The problem with warpgates is that Protoss is balanced around having them, so any change in how they function would likely require drastic rebalancing, but we're too late in the development of Wing of Liberty for it to really be an option. Still, I think that PvP is proof enough that warpgates cause a lot of problems.
I'm not sure if I like the idea of making them produce more slowly, since that will just make people go for a 5-warpgate instead of a 4-warpgate and get the same production. Instead, what I'd like to see is something along the lines of an extra 25 mineral cost for units out of a warpgate. That way, it becomes a choice between cheap, delayed reinforcements, or expensive, immediate reinforcements. Also, this could be coupled with a slight buff to gateway units, which would make protoss feel more robust throughout the game, and that would facilitate nerfing/redesigning units like the colossus.
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Rather then giving a straight buff to gateways or nerfing warpgates, why not give warpgate research the extra perk of reducing the build times of normal gateways?
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I think Chill just about summed it up for you, warpgates are balanced to enter at a certain point in the game, and they are intentionally meant to replace gateways once you finish WG research. The only reason there is a gateway at all is because it would be OP if protoss could warp in from the start. Is it a dynamic and well-designed solution? in my opinion, not really... but it does work.
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On January 06 2012 00:46 Chill wrote:
~ But that's stupid too because there will be some cases where you need the units NOW and will favour chronoing a gateway unit instead of opening the warpgate - there's no reason to lose that choice.
Isn't it way faster to switch it to warpgate and warp than to build a unit, even if you chrono boost it? It switches SO fast.
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On January 06 2012 00:48 TiTanIum_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 00:34 Hoon wrote:On January 06 2012 00:29 JOJOsc2news wrote:
This looks like you have been facing a lot of warp in harrassment and now you want warpgate to be nerfed.
I think the mechanic is fine as it is, especially with mechanics like inject and reactors for the other races. The problem is that there is a mechanic that is completely useless on the game (gateway). The only use of a gateway is to morph it into a warpgate. In game design, when there's something as 'useless' as the gateway, it means it is badly designed. Maybe if they make build time with gateways faster, so the player has to choose between faster production or warp in anywhere... Imagine the power of the proxy 2 gate...
Then just buff gateways only when warpgate tech is reserched. But there is still the problem that 2base turtling into deathball would be even more rewarding... which is bad.
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
On January 06 2012 00:55 midnight.tokyo wrote:
Rather then giving a straight buff to gateways or nerfing warpgates, why not give warpgate research the extra perk of reducing the build times of normal gateways?
I was thinking this. What if after you have warp gate research, standard gateway build-times go down as well? So you can reinforce quicker by getting units out of a gateway, or have the warp-in-anywhere mechanic of the warp gate?
Theorycrafting here. It would be HELL to balance, and the concept would probably be a bitch to implement. But possibly something to consider?
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On January 06 2012 00:50 JOJOsc2news wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 00:48 iaguz wrote:
I think a better way of looking at it is that Blizzard would prefer it if the Protoss could build straight warpgates instead of dithering with warpgates at all. But obviously that would be crazy imbalanced so they put in this delay in the game before you can get warpgates.
Much like how you don't start with an Orbital Command or Pfort but you'd obviously want them instead of CC. Exactly my point! Very well put!
Except that there is a choice available in choosing orbital command or planetary fortress. With warpgates, you choose, warpgates, and in some strange situations, warpgates.
There is a big difference. One is interesting and useful, the other simply just busywork.
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What about adding a lategame nexus research, let's say it requires templar archives or something, that decreases the production time by 5 seconds for all gateway units, but not the respective cooldown for warpgates. That way, with or without chronoboost, gateways would always have a slightly shorter production time and at least be an option. Still think that even so, warpgates would be superior in almost all scenarios, but it would be nice to give toss an option to use gateways in at least some sort of situation, because now they're totally useless after warpgate is researched, no matter what the circumstances are.
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On January 06 2012 00:55 Kovaz wrote:
The problem with warpgates is that Protoss is balanced around having them, so any change in how they function would likely require drastic rebalancing, but we're too late in the development of Wing of Liberty for it to really be an option. Still, I think that PvP is proof enough that warpgates cause a lot of problems.
I'm not sure if I like the idea of making them produce more slowly, since that will just make people go for a 5-warpgate instead of a 4-warpgate and get the same production. Instead, what I'd like to see is something along the lines of an extra 25 mineral cost for units out of a warpgate. That way, it becomes a choice between cheap, delayed reinforcements, or expensive, immediate reinforcements. Also, this could be coupled with a slight buff to gateway units, which would make protoss feel more robust throughout the game, and that would facilitate nerfing/redesigning units like the colossus.
Then the problem would be the death ball being too strong
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