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This has been bugging me since long ago, probably since beta.
Protoss Tier 1-1.5 is focused around Warp Gates a lot, which isn't bad. I love the mechanic, and I think it managed to refresh the entire race properly.
But the gateway is pretty useless compared to it. The times have no comparison at all. A chronoboosted gateway can't compete against Warp Gates, unless you're spamming zealots.
But, is this bad?
I think it is.
Protoss have become Warptoss, and that's all. Pretty much every match focuses on them. Warp Gates aren't bad, but the lack of any other option is.
Do you think using gateways should be made more viable, like, rewarding people chronoboosting gateways with faster production times than with warp gates, or maybe even nerfing the warp gates a bit and making them need chronoboost to compete instead?
I don't know, but I don't like that warping units, which is supposed to be the "extra" to be used in certain situations, is much more viable than the classic mechanic. I think it forces the player too much around the same builds again and again.
Opinions?
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Protoss isn't in a great state to be nerfed even one bit. Be careful with your suggestions. ^_^
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This looks like you have been facing a lot of warp in harrassment and now you want warpgate to be nerfed.
I think the mechanic is fine as it is, especially with mechanics like inject and reactors for the other races.
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Nah, not a problem. Its a upgrade that cost money so it should be better than the non upgraded. Protosses are finally starting to use the mobility to its full extend so it would just mess things up by switching it now.
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On January 06 2012 00:29 JOJOsc2news wrote:
This looks like you have been facing a lot of warp in harrassment and now you want warpgate to be nerfed.
I think the mechanic is fine as it is, especially with mechanics like inject and reactors for the other races.
Considering his icon is a Protoss one, I doubt this is true.
As to the OP, I think warptoss is fine. Considering Warp Gate research is 50/50 and can be gotten with a really early building, it was meant to be the standard for all tier 1/1.5 production. I think it would have been the default (without an upgrade) if that didn't make early Protoss rushes nearly impossible to hold.
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On January 06 2012 00:29 JOJOsc2news wrote:
This looks like you have been facing a lot of warp in harrassment and now you want warpgate to be nerfed.
I think the mechanic is fine as it is, especially with mechanics like inject and reactors for the other races.
The problem is that there is a mechanic that is completely useless on the game (gateway).
The only use of a gateway is to morph it into a warpgate.
In game design, when there's something as 'useless' as the gateway, it means it is badly designed.
Maybe if they make build time with gateways faster, so the player has to choose between faster production or warp in anywhere...
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On January 06 2012 00:34 Hoon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 00:29 JOJOsc2news wrote:
This looks like you have been facing a lot of warp in harrassment and now you want warpgate to be nerfed.
I think the mechanic is fine as it is, especially with mechanics like inject and reactors for the other races. The problem is that there is a mechanic that is completely useless on the game (gateway). The only use of a gateway is to morph it into a warpgate. In game design, when there's something as 'useless' as the gateway, it means it is badly designed. Maybe if they make build time with gateways faster, so the player has to choose between faster production or warp in anywhere...
The point is that it's an early game mechanic. It should become useless after.
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I agree with you. I think the warpgate/gateway situation makes no sense. Right now, there is never any reason to have a gateway after warpgate research completes. To me, it seems that gateways should have the faster build time, whereas warpgates should allow you to warp in anywhere. That way, there is an advantage to both. I think this would make the game a little more interesting because protoss players would then have to choose if they want faster units or shorter rally time. Also, the warpgate upgrade wouldn't need to be so ridiculously long.
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On January 06 2012 00:34 Hoon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 00:29 JOJOsc2news wrote:
This looks like you have been facing a lot of warp in harrassment and now you want warpgate to be nerfed.
I think the mechanic is fine as it is, especially with mechanics like inject and reactors for the other races. The problem is that there is a mechanic that is completely useless on the game (gateway). The only use of a gateway is to morph it into a warpgate. In game design, when there's something as 'useless' as the gateway, it means it is badly designed. Maybe if they make build time with gateways faster, so the player has to choose between faster production or warp in anywhere...
But it isnt useless, its used in the early game in many different forms of expanding and putting pressure on. Just because its not used all game long doesnt make it worthless.
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I think this is like saying that the command center is useless,
I can see the lack of use, but I think it is fin as it is, you can still use them for rushes and such.
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My opinion: it's ridiculous, it should only be possible with a warp prism or within a certain radius from a Nexus or something like that. Also it breaks late-game, especially, but not only, vs T, where the Protoss warps in 20 new units instantly after a battle while the opponent has to wait for ages. But yeah they're so used to this that they will most likely demand some silly buff in exchange, which I haven't thought of yet. I genuinely hope it gets fixed some time, because PvX matchups are awful to watch.
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Only thing i question about warpgate/gateway is the fact that blizzard gives us the option to change warp gate back to gateway...what is the purpose for that....I wish they did something where units from gateway get some kind of buff compared to warped in units...but this could also make protoss too strong overall...but if there are no benefits of switching it back to gateway...they might as well remove that option
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On January 06 2012 00:39 discobaas wrote:
My opinion: it's ridiculous, it should only be possible with a warp prism or within a certain radius from a Nexus or something like that. Also it breaks late-game, especially, but not only, vs T, where the Protoss warps in 20 new units instantly after a battle while the opponent has to wait for ages. But yeah they're so used to this that they will most likely demand some silly buff in exchange, which I haven't thought of yet. I genuinely hope it gets fixed some time, because PvX matchups are awful to watch.
Did you make any attempt to read the OP? He's not talking about Warpgates at all. He's talking about Gateways.
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Warpgate is a really dumb mechanic that is holding back the race. Think about this, every time Blizzard or Protosses want their race to be buffed, they have to account for the warpgate advantages, which means they really can't buff Tier1-1.5 units at all. The only thing that should be able to warp stuff around the map is a late game upgrade or Warp prism, which should also come later. Warp gate has held back the Protoss race more than anything, scrap this unbalance-able mechanic, buff Protoss gateway units, and we can proceed to really balance this game to BW levels.
No, I do not want BW, I like SC2, but warpgate is really holding back our race diversity and progression. But wait, doesn't removal of Warpgates negate diversity, well yes but no. Without warpgates blizzard can give Protoss other things they been cryin for because they won't have certain tactics that are abusable with warpgates.
As a Protoss player from the beginning of the game, it's really annoying that Tier1-1.5 units are balanced around the fact that you can warp them at a proxy pylon, and reinforce an enemy's front instantly. Meaning they are balanced around the fact they should trade evenly against a player that you are doing a timing attack on with defender's advantage (Terran with bunkers, Zerg with spine's), but when you are defending, your T1-1.5 units are weaker because they have no defender's advantage. I don't explain it well but this post does.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=263636
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I agree that Gateway units should produce faster than Warpgated units.
its just stupid that gateways dont have any purpose as soon as warpgates are avaible
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I think if the game would have came out with GW having faster production than WG or something (maybe only GW can be CB'd but WG can't etc..). However, with the current state of the game I don't see a reason to either nerf WG or buff GW (everyone would proxy 2 gate).
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This is a good thing to bring up. I think it revolves around the new macro mechanics in sc2. But protoss has no choice, it cant be nerfed more or it'll end up being more terrible
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I think using warpgates is just an aspect of the game. I think I've seen White Ra leave it a while before researching it but it's just a game mechanic that, I feel, almost has to be used.
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On January 06 2012 00:38 aderum wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 00:34 Hoon wrote:On January 06 2012 00:29 JOJOsc2news wrote:
This looks like you have been facing a lot of warp in harrassment and now you want warpgate to be nerfed.
I think the mechanic is fine as it is, especially with mechanics like inject and reactors for the other races. The problem is that there is a mechanic that is completely useless on the game (gateway). The only use of a gateway is to morph it into a warpgate. In game design, when there's something as 'useless' as the gateway, it means it is badly designed. Maybe if they make build time with gateways faster, so the player has to choose between faster production or warp in anywhere... But it isnt useless, its used in the early game in many different forms of expanding and putting pressure on. Just because its not used all game long doesnt make it worthless.
That's is the problem.
It is used only in the early game. No one thinks about going back to gateway later.
Blizzard noticed this problem in WoW. There were some spells there were used only at low levels, so they reworked then/removed them from the game.
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On January 06 2012 00:38 Raif wrote:
I think this is like saying that the command center is useless,
I can see the lack of use, but I think it is fin as it is, you can still use them for rushes and such.
Great point about regular command centers. It's indeed exactly the same. Certain techs in the game are expected to be used and replace obsolete ones, that's how Blizzard designed it.
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On January 06 2012 00:39 discobaas wrote:
My opinion: it's ridiculous, it should only be possible with a warp prism or within a certain radius from a Nexus or something like that. Also it breaks late-game, especially, but not only, vs T, where the Protoss warps in 20 new units instantly after a battle while the opponent has to wait for ages. But yeah they're so used to this that they will most likely demand some silly buff in exchange, which I haven't thought of yet. I genuinely hope it gets fixed some time, because PvX matchups are awful to watch.
As I thought. This would turn into a thread of T and Z whining about warpgate. 
As to the OP. The mechanic is not useless just because it is not used during the entire game. You could say a barracks without a tech lab or reactor is useless with that kind of logic. Or even better: The Command Center Should people get rewarded with faster SCV production for not choosing to get an orbital or pf? Come on. This is going nowhere!
The gateway is used to put on early pressure and is a way to reduce the production ability of protoss at the beginning. It is an essential step in balancing towards the metagame. Also, there are a lot of play styles and builds that use no or very late Warpgate (e.g. WhiteRa's stargate play)
This thread is going to turn ugly very soon and end in a loop of balance discussion by people who don't have the required expertise.
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United States6151 Posts
There was a point where you could actually increase your production rate by quite a bit if you could transform your gateways back and forth, but Blizzard decided to "fix" the bug, which was a terrible decision imo.
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Calgary25980 Posts
So here was my thought process:
- Everyone wants warpgates but you can't start with the technology since it's too good.
- Maybe once you've researched it, you should only be able to build warpgates?
* But then they would build too quickly (no opening time) so that's stupid.
* Maybe they should stay the same but automatically open so you have no choice.
~ But that's stupid too because there will be some cases where you need the units NOW and will favour chronoing a gateway unit instead of opening the warpgate - there's no reason to lose that choice.
So, in conclusion, the gateway / warpgate dynamic is stupid but it's the best solution I think.
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On January 06 2012 00:44 Hoon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 00:38 aderum wrote:On January 06 2012 00:34 Hoon wrote:On January 06 2012 00:29 JOJOsc2news wrote:
This looks like you have been facing a lot of warp in harrassment and now you want warpgate to be nerfed.
I think the mechanic is fine as it is, especially with mechanics like inject and reactors for the other races. The problem is that there is a mechanic that is completely useless on the game (gateway). The only use of a gateway is to morph it into a warpgate. In game design, when there's something as 'useless' as the gateway, it means it is badly designed. Maybe if they make build time with gateways faster, so the player has to choose between faster production or warp in anywhere... But it isnt useless, its used in the early game in many different forms of expanding and putting pressure on. Just because its not used all game long doesnt make it worthless. That's is the problem. It is used only in the early game. No one thinks about going back to gateway later. Blizzard noticed this problem in WoW. There were some spells there were used only at low levels, so they reworked then/removed them from the game.
Maybe the entire problem is that you have to manually switch to Warp Gate and you have the option to switch back. If the upgrade worked more like weapons/armor/shields, this issue wouldn't have even arisen. Upon completing Warp Gate research, all Gateways turn into Warp Gates as soon as possible, including newly constructed Gateways, with no option to revert. Afterall, you don't have to manually click upgrades on every single new unit, and you can't un-upgrade individual units. I think Warp Gate is meant to be more like that - a permanent, always on upgrade.
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On January 06 2012 00:34 Hoon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 00:29 JOJOsc2news wrote:
This looks like you have been facing a lot of warp in harrassment and now you want warpgate to be nerfed.
I think the mechanic is fine as it is, especially with mechanics like inject and reactors for the other races. The problem is that there is a mechanic that is completely useless on the game (gateway). The only use of a gateway is to morph it into a warpgate. In game design, when there's something as 'useless' as the gateway, it means it is badly designed. Maybe if they make build time with gateways faster, so the player has to choose between faster production or warp in anywhere...
Imagine the power of the proxy 2 gate...
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I think a better way of looking at it is that Blizzard would prefer it if the Protoss could build straight warpgates instead of dithering with gateways at all. But obviously that would be crazy imbalanced so they put in this delay in the game before you can get warpgates.
Much like how you don't start with an Orbital Command or Pfort but you'd obviously want them instead of CC.
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On January 06 2012 00:28 darkness wrote:
Protoss isn't in a great state to be nerfed even one bit. Be careful with your suggestions. ^_^
It's not about balance really, it is about game design, and I definitely agree with the OP. I actually made a thread long ago (back in beta) about this, but it got shot down at the time because back then there was a whole lot of balance bitching and stuff =(
Like I said though, it really has nothing to do with balance as much as it does with game design and actual game play. For example, imagine how much bearable PvP would be if the 4gate never existed? Or if it did, it would be a much riskier build then it was and much easier to defend. The reason I say this is because if warpgate wasn't the primary means of creating units for Protoss, that means it would have to be limited in some way, maybe warpgates need energy perhaps (this is hypothetical so just go with it  ), once the energy runs out the 4gate is done. Since time is an extremely critical factor of the success of a 4gate in this scenario, then the defending player would simply have to stall with sentries while building up an army of zealots/immortals or something. Doesn't this make a ton more sense then all of the 4gate vs 4gate shenanigans that we saw for months, that was fixed by making weird artificial changes to the game like changing ramp vision, pylon range, etc?
Also, it is just kinda bad to have an UPGRADE that is required literally every single game, is researched at the same exact time (90% of the time it is right when your core finishes, some stargate openings are the other 10%), no matter the matchup or the strategy. The only other one I can think of is the Orbital Command, but that is Terran's macro mechanic so that makes much more sense. I just think that having an upgrade that is that necessary really restricts the player from doing a variety of strategies. For example, if regular gateways were Protoss' primary means of producing units, would a fast +1 air attack strategy be viable? Maybe in some situations it would be, but we will never know because if the Protoss player does that they will probably die.
As a final note, doesn't it piss people off that Protoss seems to be so revolvent around timing attacks? As a Zerg player, it definitely pisses me off . The reason for this is because of warpgate and the fact that it significantly hinders an opponents defensive advantage, seeing as you can just warp in directly outside of their base. I think the game would be much better off if these attacks were harder to sustain (i.e. less effective if your opponent is prepared, but still viable), and macro Protoss was more viable and less passive.
Anyway, that is my thoughts on it all, hopefully this will be changed someday, ideally HotS, but that's pretty unrealistic. Maybe in the next expansion or something.
Edit: On January 06 2012 00:37 zedi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 00:34 Hoon wrote:On January 06 2012 00:29 JOJOsc2news wrote:
This looks like you have been facing a lot of warp in harrassment and now you want warpgate to be nerfed.
I think the mechanic is fine as it is, especially with mechanics like inject and reactors for the other races. The problem is that there is a mechanic that is completely useless on the game (gateway). The only use of a gateway is to morph it into a warpgate. In game design, when there's something as 'useless' as the gateway, it means it is badly designed. Maybe if they make build time with gateways faster, so the player has to choose between faster production or warp in anywhere... The point is that it's an early game mechanic. It should become useless after.
How does this make sense? Name another "early game mechanic" that becomes useless later in the game? I can't think of a single one.
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On January 06 2012 00:48 iaguz wrote:
I think a better way of looking at it is that Blizzard would prefer it if the Protoss could build straight warpgates instead of dithering with warpgates at all. But obviously that would be crazy imbalanced so they put in this delay in the game before you can get warpgates.
Much like how you don't start with an Orbital Command or Pfort but you'd obviously want them instead of CC.
Exactly my point!
Very well put!
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On January 06 2012 00:42 MetalSlug wrote:
I agree that Gateway units should produce faster than Warpgated units.
its just stupid that gateways dont have any purpose as soon as warpgates are avaible
the same can be said for "naked" rax there is no point in having those if a addon is available
if warpgate available from second 1 wouldnt be extremly op then i'm sure gateways wouldn't even be in the game. the research is just a way to delay it's availability and it's a way to further differentiate the races
and the argument "they cant buff gateway units because of warpgate" is only partially true in reallity its"...because of the rest of the race" gateway units would need to be buffed a lot to be able to deal effectivly with all kind of early aggression, drops,.... and buffed gateway units would mean every t3 would be way op the hole race would need to be changed
and actually i like that every race focuses on a different army approach
with terran units of equal power, protoss "meat" units and very strong key tech units and zerg masses of units
buffed gateway units would in my eyes make protoss more similar to terran
edit
I think a better way of looking at it is that Blizzard would prefer it if the Protoss could build straight warpgates instead of dithering with gateways at all. But obviously that would be crazy imbalanced so they put in this delay in the game before you can get warpgates.
Much like how you don't start with an Orbital Command or Pfort but you'd obviously want them instead of CC.
exactly this
pf or orbital from the start would be op
the same for stim and a lot of other key upgrades that are meant to be researched
the research is just a way to control the timing
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I really don't see the problem with warpgates. They are just fine as they are now
On January 06 2012 00:48 iaguz wrote:
I think a better way of looking at it is that Blizzard would prefer it if the Protoss could build straight warpgates instead of dithering with warpgates at all. But obviously that would be crazy imbalanced so they put in this delay in the game before you can get warpgates.
Much like how you don't start with an Orbital Command or Pfort but you'd obviously want them instead of CC.
This probably summarizes it
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On January 06 2012 00:46 Chill wrote:
So here was my thought process:
- Everyone wants warpgates but you can't start with the technology since it's too good.
- Maybe once you've researched it, you should only be able to build warpgates?
* But then they would build too quickly (no opening time) so that's stupid.
* Maybe they should stay the same but automatically open so you have no choice.
~ But that's stupid too because there will be some cases where you need the units NOW and will favour chronoing a gateway unit instead of opening the warpgate - there's no reason to lose that choice.
So, in conclusion, the gateway / warpgate dynamic is stupid but it's the best solution I think.
tbh I dont know why anyone would want warpgates its a fundamentally flawed mechanic (removes defenders advantage etc). ofc if they removed it toss gateway units would have to be rebalanced.
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The problem with warpgates is that Protoss is balanced around having them, so any change in how they function would likely require drastic rebalancing, but we're too late in the development of Wing of Liberty for it to really be an option. Still, I think that PvP is proof enough that warpgates cause a lot of problems.
I'm not sure if I like the idea of making them produce more slowly, since that will just make people go for a 5-warpgate instead of a 4-warpgate and get the same production. Instead, what I'd like to see is something along the lines of an extra 25 mineral cost for units out of a warpgate. That way, it becomes a choice between cheap, delayed reinforcements, or expensive, immediate reinforcements. Also, this could be coupled with a slight buff to gateway units, which would make protoss feel more robust throughout the game, and that would facilitate nerfing/redesigning units like the colossus.
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Rather then giving a straight buff to gateways or nerfing warpgates, why not give warpgate research the extra perk of reducing the build times of normal gateways?
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I think Chill just about summed it up for you, warpgates are balanced to enter at a certain point in the game, and they are intentionally meant to replace gateways once you finish WG research. The only reason there is a gateway at all is because it would be OP if protoss could warp in from the start. Is it a dynamic and well-designed solution? in my opinion, not really... but it does work.
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On January 06 2012 00:46 Chill wrote:
~ But that's stupid too because there will be some cases where you need the units NOW and will favour chronoing a gateway unit instead of opening the warpgate - there's no reason to lose that choice.
Isn't it way faster to switch it to warpgate and warp than to build a unit, even if you chrono boost it? It switches SO fast.
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On January 06 2012 00:48 TiTanIum_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 00:34 Hoon wrote:On January 06 2012 00:29 JOJOsc2news wrote:
This looks like you have been facing a lot of warp in harrassment and now you want warpgate to be nerfed.
I think the mechanic is fine as it is, especially with mechanics like inject and reactors for the other races. The problem is that there is a mechanic that is completely useless on the game (gateway). The only use of a gateway is to morph it into a warpgate. In game design, when there's something as 'useless' as the gateway, it means it is badly designed. Maybe if they make build time with gateways faster, so the player has to choose between faster production or warp in anywhere... Imagine the power of the proxy 2 gate...
Then just buff gateways only when warpgate tech is reserched. But there is still the problem that 2base turtling into deathball would be even more rewarding... which is bad.
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
On January 06 2012 00:55 midnight.tokyo wrote:
Rather then giving a straight buff to gateways or nerfing warpgates, why not give warpgate research the extra perk of reducing the build times of normal gateways?
I was thinking this. What if after you have warp gate research, standard gateway build-times go down as well? So you can reinforce quicker by getting units out of a gateway, or have the warp-in-anywhere mechanic of the warp gate?
Theorycrafting here. It would be HELL to balance, and the concept would probably be a bitch to implement. But possibly something to consider?
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On January 06 2012 00:50 JOJOsc2news wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 00:48 iaguz wrote:
I think a better way of looking at it is that Blizzard would prefer it if the Protoss could build straight warpgates instead of dithering with warpgates at all. But obviously that would be crazy imbalanced so they put in this delay in the game before you can get warpgates.
Much like how you don't start with an Orbital Command or Pfort but you'd obviously want them instead of CC. Exactly my point! Very well put!
Except that there is a choice available in choosing orbital command or planetary fortress. With warpgates, you choose, warpgates, and in some strange situations, warpgates.
There is a big difference. One is interesting and useful, the other simply just busywork.
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What about adding a lategame nexus research, let's say it requires templar archives or something, that decreases the production time by 5 seconds for all gateway units, but not the respective cooldown for warpgates. That way, with or without chronoboost, gateways would always have a slightly shorter production time and at least be an option. Still think that even so, warpgates would be superior in almost all scenarios, but it would be nice to give toss an option to use gateways in at least some sort of situation, because now they're totally useless after warpgate is researched, no matter what the circumstances are.
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On January 06 2012 00:55 Kovaz wrote:
The problem with warpgates is that Protoss is balanced around having them, so any change in how they function would likely require drastic rebalancing, but we're too late in the development of Wing of Liberty for it to really be an option. Still, I think that PvP is proof enough that warpgates cause a lot of problems.
I'm not sure if I like the idea of making them produce more slowly, since that will just make people go for a 5-warpgate instead of a 4-warpgate and get the same production. Instead, what I'd like to see is something along the lines of an extra 25 mineral cost for units out of a warpgate. That way, it becomes a choice between cheap, delayed reinforcements, or expensive, immediate reinforcements. Also, this could be coupled with a slight buff to gateway units, which would make protoss feel more robust throughout the game, and that would facilitate nerfing/redesigning units like the colossus.
Then the problem would be the death ball being too strong
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On January 06 2012 00:45 ZenithM wrote:
Great point about regular command centers. It's indeed exactly the same. Certain techs in the game are expected to be used and replace obsolete ones, that's how Blizzard designed it.
On January 06 2012 00:38 Raif wrote:
I think this is like saying that the command center is useless,
I can see the lack of use, but I think it is fin as it is, you can still use them for rushes and such.
It is nothing like the command center... A command center allows you to produce SCVs, an orbital command allows you to use mules and scans, it does not give you the ability to produce SCVs, the command center does that. The orbital command is just an add on in disguise... Remember comsat stations in BW? Yeah they just gave them little yellow robots that mine shit tons of minerals really fast.
Also, it probably isn't a good idea to base a discussion about a game mechanic by saying "hey, it works for the orbital command! That means it must be ok!" because the mule is probably the next worst designed game mechanic haha.
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My take on this is to buff gateway units (or add an fast cheap harrass unit), and make wargate a later tech (such as requiring twilight council and costing 200/200). I really don't get why blizzard not choosed that safer way, am I missing something obvious ?
For me warpgate is one of the most disappointing thing in SC2. It forces gateway unit to be weaker than the other races counterparts, it forces the removal of the templar amulet, renders gateway a useless building, makes the PvP matchup so particular and force the intoduction of the cumbersome Arc Shield in HotS. As a protoss, I beg for a nerf on WG !
Removing rally time is so game breaking in a RTS that is really risky to try to mess around !
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There's been a lot of discussion about this, as well as ideas but in the end the mechanic is fine as it is and is unlikely to be changed (maybe something in LotV but definitely not in the nearer future).
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I personnaly would like to see an increase of the morphing time of the warp gate.
I'm not talking about balance but game desing, obviously if you increase the morph time, you have to compensate it somehow for balance sake.
But really, the fact that the morphing time is so much smaller than the cooldown or the production time of a gateway, it just generate cheesy play relying on timing attacks after the extra round of units you get with morphing.
And if this morphing time because larger than a production cycle. Morphing would actually become a decision.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On January 06 2012 00:46 Chill wrote:
So here was my thought process:
- Everyone wants warpgates but you can't start with the technology since it's too good.
- Maybe once you've researched it, you should only be able to build warpgates?
* But then they would build too quickly (no opening time) so that's stupid.
* Maybe they should stay the same but automatically open so you have no choice.
~ But that's stupid too because there will be some cases where you need the units NOW and will favour chronoing a gateway unit instead of opening the warpgate - there's no reason to lose that choice.
So, in conclusion, the gateway / warpgate dynamic is stupid but it's the best solution I think.
That's nonsense, because opening the warpgate will get you the unit faster.
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Canada13389 Posts
On January 06 2012 01:05 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 00:46 Chill wrote:
So here was my thought process:
- Everyone wants warpgates but you can't start with the technology since it's too good.
- Maybe once you've researched it, you should only be able to build warpgates?
* But then they would build too quickly (no opening time) so that's stupid.
* Maybe they should stay the same but automatically open so you have no choice.
~ But that's stupid too because there will be some cases where you need the units NOW and will favour chronoing a gateway unit instead of opening the warpgate - there's no reason to lose that choice.
So, in conclusion, the gateway / warpgate dynamic is stupid but it's the best solution I think. That's nonsense, because opening the warpgate will get you the unit faster.
Yeah sorry chill, its still faster to chrono the WG as it changes as it will make any unit faster than the gateway would. You can chrono the GW to turn into a WG faster and reduce the cooldown as well. Cooldown begins the moment the unit starts warping in not when the unit is done warping in.
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On January 06 2012 00:55 Kovaz wrote:
I'm not sure if I like the idea of making them produce more slowly, since that will just make people go for a 5-warpgate instead of a 4-warpgate and get the same production. Instead, what I'd like to see is something along the lines of an extra 25 mineral cost for units out of a warpgate. That way, it becomes a choice between cheap, delayed reinforcements, or expensive, immediate reinforcements. Also, this could be coupled with a slight buff to gateway units, which would make protoss feel more robust throughout the game, and that would facilitate nerfing/redesigning units like the colossus.
What about if warpgates required energy or something to warp in? They would still have cooldowns so you can't just save up full energy and double your army all of a sudden or something, but this would allow Protoss to use warpgates for drop defense, harassment, and even just for faster production.
Here's another thing you Protoss players would like to hear, YOU COULD HAVE KHAYDARIN AMULET BACK!!! =)
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On January 06 2012 01:05 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 00:46 Chill wrote:
So here was my thought process:
- Everyone wants warpgates but you can't start with the technology since it's too good.
- Maybe once you've researched it, you should only be able to build warpgates?
* But then they would build too quickly (no opening time) so that's stupid.
* Maybe they should stay the same but automatically open so you have no choice.
~ But that's stupid too because there will be some cases where you need the units NOW and will favour chronoing a gateway unit instead of opening the warpgate - there's no reason to lose that choice.
So, in conclusion, the gateway / warpgate dynamic is stupid but it's the best solution I think. That's nonsense, because opening the warpgate will get you the unit faster.
Not if you want 2 sentries out of your gate... Or maybe, it's the same.
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On January 06 2012 01:03 HaXXspetten wrote:
What about adding a lategame nexus research, let's say it requires templar archives or something, that decreases the production time by 5 seconds for all gateway units, but not the respective cooldown for warpgates. That way, with or without chronoboost, gateways would always have a slightly shorter production time and at least be an option. Still think that even so, warpgates would be superior in almost all scenarios, but it would be nice to give toss an option to use gateways in at least some sort of situation, because now they're totally useless after warpgate is researched, no matter what the circumstances are.
i don't thinkt any kind of cooldown or buildtime change past early or early/mid game would change anything
people would just build 1 or 2 or whatever more warpgates to avoid the switching (which would cost time everytime you go from offensive/harrass to defensive)
i agree it's a bit strange that the gateway is even there after the research and i wouldnt be surprised if at some point in the future that (like chill said) oce warpgate is researched you either just build only warpgates or the gate automatically opens
but atm i don't really see a problem with it as it just works the way it is
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On January 06 2012 00:45 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 00:38 Raif wrote:
I think this is like saying that the command center is useless,
I can see the lack of use, but I think it is fin as it is, you can still use them for rushes and such. Great point about regular command centers. It's indeed exactly the same. Certain techs in the game are expected to be used and replace obsolete ones, that's how Blizzard designed it.
No it's not.
Orbital Commands and Planetary Fortresses are an upgrade that cost money for each individual command centre. It's fine to have the original building, because it implies that if you don't have the money to upgrade it you can still use it (I realise this has no practical bearing on the game at all, this is purely a game design thing).
It's the fact that you can switch warpgates between warpgate and gateway mode that bugs me. It implies that both have some kind of inherent benefit, otherwise why would you want to ever have them in gateway mode at all?. Either every gateway you have after the warpgate upgrade is complete should just automatically become a warpgate, or there should be a cost to change a gateway into a warpgate (so, for example, you could still build units from the gateway and save money if you wanted to). Or, like people are suggesting, the training time on a Gateway should be shorter than that of a warpgate.
I would liken the current state of affairs more to, say, having to press a button on each and every single one of your units to physically install a +1 upgrade even after it completes. Having +1 is better than having +0: having warpgates is better than having gateways. The changing mechanic serves no purpose and shouldn't be there.
EDIT: To clarify, I realise this isn't an issue that affects balance at all, but it's a game design thing that I think should really be looked at. Feel free to care or not care about it, but it's just a little thing that irks me.
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I've, since beta, thought that gateways should make units faster than warpgates.
After thinking about it a bit, I think there should be a parallel upgrade to warpgate technology. But, instead of turning a gateway into a warpgate, it would just decrease building time of units from a gateway so that they would actually build faster than from a warpgate. This would bring another decision for the toss to make, allowing more builds, and still keep the noobs in bronze from dying to 2 gate proxy.
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Compare this with command center and orbital command. I see no Terran complaining that cc is useless compared to oc. I think warpgate is same as well - it is much better than normal gateway and there is nothing wrong with disregarding gateway after warpgate is researched.
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The current time of the gateway needs to be swapped with the warpgate so there is some sort of downside to warping in your units. It would be better for the game as a whole because it would encourage better macro out of protoss players.
Instead of simply warping in units 24/7 a protoss would turn gateways into warpgates when they are pushing out so they can warp in, but when they are macroing up it would be better to turn them back into a gateway.
The current way protoss macro is too forgiving. The only units that are qued are workers and tech units that you only get in small numbers to begin with (less than 10).
I can't tell you how many times a protoss will forget to warp in units normally and when a drop ship is incoming..... anecdotal I know, but I think that we've all had our fair share of rage at warpgate when doing some sort of harass or counter push. Kill the protoss army?
Let me just warp in units to where the drop ship is heading!!! /sadface
The defenders advantage being brought with a protoss army through pylons and warp prisms is overpowered and it hasn't been changed because blizzard is more concerned with how a race, "Feels" to the common player.
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On January 06 2012 01:11 mrlie3 wrote:
Compare this with command center and orbital command. I see no Terran complaining that cc is useless compared to oc. I think warpgate is same as well - it is much better than normal gateway and there is nothing wrong with disregarding gateway after warpgate is researched.
The cc is not free, it costs production time and ressources. So yeah, it has to be better.
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does it work..... yes it does, proven itself to not be imba.
is it a good game mechanic, idk, but it works, nerfing warpgate or gateways for no reason seems stupid for the concept that "warpgates shouldn't be a straight upgrade".
This seems odd to me, why shouldn't it be a straight upgrade, there is nothing wrong with that.
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I think people are forgetting that the vanilla CC can hold 5 SCV's while the other two versions PF/OC cannot. While that is just a minor "advantage," it displays the point of most people in that the original Non-WG gateway should have a benefit or avenue of use other than, "Oh, it's just a placeholder for WG and is eclipsed immediately afterwards."
I think the most viable advantages to give a regular gateway is:
1) Exclusive units - Some cannot be warped in and MUST be rallied directly from gateway (maybe in HotS or LotV where bigger units start coming out of the gateway?)
2) Faster unit build time for regular gateway
3) Stronger units come out of regular gateway (attk dmg is higher)
-or-
Units with shield come out of gateway vs. Units without shield come out of WG
I know that implementing another facet to the protoss meta would just mean more countless months of headaches for SC2 in general, but I think that in the end it would benefit the game greatly. Derno, I think it really warrants a good, comprehensive look by the uppers!
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Katowice25012 Posts
This topic is really more suited for Blizzard than us.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On January 06 2012 01:06 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 01:05 marvellosity wrote:On January 06 2012 00:46 Chill wrote:
So here was my thought process:
- Everyone wants warpgates but you can't start with the technology since it's too good.
- Maybe once you've researched it, you should only be able to build warpgates?
* But then they would build too quickly (no opening time) so that's stupid.
* Maybe they should stay the same but automatically open so you have no choice.
~ But that's stupid too because there will be some cases where you need the units NOW and will favour chronoing a gateway unit instead of opening the warpgate - there's no reason to lose that choice.
So, in conclusion, the gateway / warpgate dynamic is stupid but it's the best solution I think. That's nonsense, because opening the warpgate will get you the unit faster. Yeah sorry chill, its still faster to chrono the WG as it changes as it will make any unit faster than the gateway would. You can chrono the GW to turn into a WG faster and reduce the cooldown as well. Cooldown begins the moment the unit starts warping in not when the unit is done warping in.
That's true I'm dumb. I guess they should auto-open then! Self-defeated!
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
maybe have warpgates significantly easier to kill than gateways? makes sense lore-wise, and gives a strong short range weakness for something with infinite range. it'd be cool to see warpgates closing up defensively when a drop comes so that their harder gateway shell can tank it. i actually really like this idea wow i'm a genius!!!!!
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EPT
