I feel Starcraft 2 is very passive. - Page 11

On November 23 2011 20:58 gruff wrote:


I don't think that's very relevant. Impossible to say but starcraft is such a strong brand in itself that sc2 would probably done fine without very much pr from Blizzard.

On November 23 2011 20:59 marttorn wrote:


Just so you know, the PL finals and the OSL finals both filled up stadiums. And just so you know, the chinese stream for the OSL final had over one million live viewers.

Just so you know.

On November 23 2011 21:09 Sawamura wrote:


Hanaro Osl was in the year 2000 , did you think twitch tv existed back than ? or ppstream ?

On November 23 2011 16:41 bgx wrote:
remove the damn xelnaga towers, it will enrich army movements and uncertainty, so you will have to move your armies non-stop or you may get into trap, its to easy to track movements with xelnaga tower, also players are afraid to move their army into tower radius also you cant really move your drops throughout the map because of it... i dont like the idea of xel naga towers to be on EVERY competition map. Bring us variety, in BW there were mineral walls, temple(rocks) walls that require DIFFERENT strategies and different timings.

I dont like that SC2 is all about being omniscient, a little bit of uncertainty would enrich the play, and possible new strategy/tactics.

On November 23 2011 20:59 marttorn wrote:


Just so you know, the PL finals and the OSL finals both filled up stadiums. And just so you know, the chinese stream for the OSL final had over one million live viewers.

Just so you know.

On November 23 2011 21:39 Subversion wrote:
How many times are people going to start threads that say:

Brood War was like this, Starcraft 2 is like this, Brood War did it better.

Seriously, can we just move on from this stuff? =/ I don't see the value in these discussions. Yes they're different games, yes they play differently - you think BW is better? Okay that's cool. You think SC2 is better? That's cool too. Why do we need to compare them constantly, when it always resorts to people saying one is better than the other day.

It didn't even get to two pages before the Youtube links started.

=/

On November 23 2011 13:35 Ver wrote:
sc2 is not remotely like chess.

The difference you noted between bw and sc2 is a combination of simplicity and the superiority of offense over defense. The reason you see so much dancing of armies jockeying for a tiny increase in position in sc2 is because there's so few ways to gain an advantage. Many sc2 games literally come down to the positioning before a fight because nothing else matters remotely as much as winning a battle. In bw engaging correctly was just one of many, many factors in determining victory. Certain players like Jaedong were known for their consistent ability to engage right, while others like iloveoov were particularly bad at it but could win through a variety of other means. In sc2 if you can't engage very well you will never be among the best. When you remove all the nuances of bw that determined skill, you are left with a select very few factors, most notably engaging, but also blind build order luck, that massively determine the outcomes of games because there's so little else to influence the outcome.

The other reason for favoring big battles and massive 1a armies is the ease of movement. Movement in bw is much more subtle and difficult to organize and execute. Position (like high ground) meant much more, all races had various tools which favored defense over offense (reavers/storm in pvz, tanks/mines, scourge/swarm/lurker vs vessels, better static defense, etc). Furthermore, the smooth a.i in sc2 means that it's really easy to attack bases without bothering to micro and do insane damage. Plus there are a number of tools which effectively fight defensive setups (banelings, infested terrans, forcefields, immortals, colossus, marines, marauders) These reasons are exactly why backstabs so good in sc2 compared to bw and why you get many, many more base trades. Ironically, base trades and backstabs happen the most in the matchups most like BW in terms of skill, defense, and positioning: tvz and tvt.

How does this lend itself to big 1a armies? Because if you are devoting say 15-20 supply to a distraction or secondary maneuver, that means your main army will have that much less supply. Therefore it's much easier for you to just get run over by a-move, and that will lose you the game outright in most cases because it's so hard to comeback. You can overcome this advantage to some degree as defense isn't entirely meaningless, particularly in tvz and tvt, but an extra 20ish supply is a lot more meaningful in most cases than a good position. In bw, position is much more important than army size, and you'd routinely see large armies improperly wielded be defeated or warded off by well employed tactics or setups. Someone like Flash couldn't make a fraction of the comebacks he did in bw playing sc2 because it's just too easy to bully your opponent around once you have a lead and you don't have much leverage to 'outplay' someone when behind. Furthermore there are a number of mechanics in place which very effectively dissuade spread out forces in favor of gathering one big army: Terran drops in tvp are absolutely terrifying, but these are more than "balanced" out by feedback, warpins, and blink. Trying to harass past a certain point is often just going to lead to wasted units, which could in turn lower your main army strength for a critical moment and make you vulnerable to getting a moved to death. In TvT the combination of vikings, sensor towers, great mobility of marines and hellions, and powerful turrets has made it very difficult in general to effectively harass behind a certain point.

No this problem isn't going to be fixed with time. It has nothing to do with how young the game is, only a little bit with how bad players are, and everything with how the game is designed. Until that is addressed, the only way things can change is by drastically altering maps to promote more defense and large-scale combat which can help but only to a small degree. Blizzard designed the game to favor offense and ease of use: these are the results of such decisions.

On November 23 2011 21:39 Subversion wrote:
How many times are people going to start threads that say:

Brood War was like this, Starcraft 2 is like this, Brood War did it better.

Seriously, can we just move on from this stuff? =/ I don't see the value in these discussions. Yes they're different games, yes they play differently - you think BW is better? Okay that's cool. You think SC2 is better? That's cool too. Why do we need to compare them constantly, when it always resorts to people saying one is better than the other day.

It didn't even get to two pages before the Youtube links started.

=/

On November 23 2011 20:23 haflo wrote:
How many international viewers does BW has ? how many international pro-gamers ?
I think idra streaming has more viewers then OSL .

On November 23 2011 21:57 karpo wrote:
Just reading the thread title i could more or less figure out who would post in the thread and exactly what the arguments would be. Repeating the same tired old shit on this forum really wont change anything.

On November 23 2011 21:50 Angra wrote:




Because all of the "oldschool BW fans/SC2 haters" don't actually "hate" SC2, they just want it to be an even better game than it already is. And every SC2 fan seems to take that as an insult.

On November 23 2011 21:50 Angra wrote:
Because all of the "oldschool BW fans/SC2 haters" don't actually "hate" SC2, they just want it to be an even better game than it already is. And every SC2 fan seems to take that as an insult.

On November 23 2011 13:00 eSuBuildings wrote:
@AnachronisticAnarchy,

Watch this TvT between Flash and Fantasy

Now watch this TvT between Boxer and Rain http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/videos/72872-winners-semis-boxer-vs-rain-g1

Sure, the Boxer vs Rain game will have it's moments in the early to mid game that will have crowds jeering out of their seats, but in the late game it becomes (like I pointed out in my OP) nothing but a waiting game whereas Flash and Fantasy's late game has so much movement going on inside it.