EPTThe Warp Mechanic and How It Broke Protoss - Page 27
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HolyHenk
35 Posts
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Lucky Strike
Canada34 Posts
And for it to help defend against a 4gate, it should be available fairly early, maybe after Gateway or after the Cybernetics Core. Again, something which brings balance can be figured out. Comments? Criticisms (constructive)? What do you think? | ||
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HypertonicHydroponic
437 Posts
On September 10 2011 17:31 Nyxisto wrote: Well i dont see any problem with it. If Toss is bad at defending(what i dont even think, well placed forcefields not just at your choke, can redude the opponents army value pretty hard) then dont play defensive. I think thats what good about starcraft , different races represent different gamestyles. If you like to defend, play a race thats good at defending and has a advantage in small groups. If a race is good at doing pushes, then go for it and abuse all the positive aspects of agressive protoss play. The OP does not say Protoss as they are now are bad at defending period. He says they are bad at defending it certain situations which force certain conventions that don't need to be necessary. Maps should not be forced to have one small diagonal ramp from the main to the natural to be successful as a rule. Sentry defense relies on forcefield on that kind of choke. The OP is saying that Protoss defense could be more flexible if they had a defender's advantage which partly involves unit build time, but also involves something akin to a bunker/spine crawler which is barracks/spawning pool/gateway level tech instead of the cannon which is forge/evolution chamber/engineering bay level tech. In light of zealot strength and cannon versatility, it makes sense that the cannon is not gateway tech, the combination would be too powerful. The question is what can be done to give the protoss the defender's advantage building that is gateway tech that does not make protoss overpowered. In a sense, warp gate tech has nothing to do with it nor sentry forcefield. The only reason warp gate was brought up was to "get inside blizzard's head" about why there is no defenders advantage for protoss (beyond mass forcefield which you cannot have super early in the game). | ||
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BushidoSnipr
United States910 Posts
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WightyCity
Canada887 Posts
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HypertonicHydroponic
437 Posts
On September 10 2011 20:14 aZealot wrote: I don't know, maybe the issue is that when Blizzard added the Roach and the Marauder to SC2 they did not add something similar to the Protoss so that the Protoss Gateway army remains un-upgraded from ....... [edit] Roach and Marauder are roughly the Z/T Dragoon, same as Stalker is the new Dragoon. Problem is the direct translation is weaker than the original at its base, and now it has to contend with equals much earlier making it less effective for what it did. | ||
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Paladia
802 Posts
Protoss offense is balanced with chrono on gateways in mind, as it may happen and thus must be very possible to defend against. However, if you do not chrono your gateways and use it on tech or probes instead, your defense will also be worse off. As such, it is not just warp gates that are a problem but also chrono boost itself. | ||
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Truedot
444 Posts
On September 11 2011 01:47 BushidoSnipr wrote: Yeah i always questioned why blizz gave protoss the (zerg) ability to mass quickly...it seems like zerg is cheap but massable, terran mid cost, takes some time to mass, but toss is powerful and massable Pretty much, except that you see p's goign mass stalker for a reason. its not as weak as people are making it out to be. That high range on stalkers is the reason, coupled with their high HP. lets be honest, 160 hp for a 125 50 unit is more than a tank's HP at 125 125, and it costs 1 less supply. And then it moves 2.95 speed. And then it can move even faster with blink. And then it can live forever with blink micro. There's a reason we're seeing a huge upswing trend in blink stalker rushes vs Z. High HP, long range, and the ability to save every single unit from death in early/midgame.. And then if some die, no problem, 4 more instantly. And if it gets to late game, 20 gates and you get 20 very powerful units instantly. | ||
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Brotocol
243 Posts
On September 11 2011 03:12 Truedot wrote: Pretty much, except that you see p's goign mass stalker for a reason. its not as weak as people are making it out to be. That high range on stalkers is the reason, coupled with their high HP. lets be honest, 160 hp for a 125 50 unit is more than a tank's HP at 125 125, and it costs 1 less supply. And then it moves 2.95 speed. And then it can move even faster with blink. And then it can live forever with blink micro. There's a reason we're seeing a huge upswing trend in blink stalker rushes vs Z. High HP, long range, and the ability to save every single unit from death in early/midgame.. And then if some die, no problem, 4 more instantly. And if it gets to late game, 20 gates and you get 20 very powerful units instantly. It does less dps than a single marine. In a way it's like an amazing acrobat/ninja, who jumps all over the place, does back flips into front flips, and takes a few hits and survives. It's not as effective as it is cool (although it's half decent, it's weaker than comparable units from other races). It's basically Sammo Hung, minus the ability to hurt things. | ||
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IsraeL
United Kingdom172 Posts
This game is good because the races have different mechanics, warp ins are perfect for this game, stop having pointless debates its dumb and sad. | ||
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susySquark
United States1692 Posts
On September 11 2011 03:36 IsraeL wrote: Anyone whining that protoss is too strong because of warp mechanic is way off the mark. This game is good because the races have different mechanics, warp ins are perfect for this game, stop having pointless debates its dumb and sad. Did you even read anything at all? Warp is not OP, its actually creating a weakness. It's fine for the game, yes... if we can cover for defense somehow. | ||
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Cloud9157
United States2968 Posts
On September 11 2011 01:47 BushidoSnipr wrote: Yeah i always questioned why blizz gave protoss the (zerg) ability to mass quickly...it seems like zerg is cheap but massable, terran mid cost, takes some time to mass, but toss is powerful and massable You're overlooking the fact that they cost more than Either T or Z units. If you let Protoss get on 20+ WGs, you let them live too long. | ||
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TVUmK
United States91 Posts
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sc2trainer
63 Posts
On September 11 2011 01:34 Lucky Strike wrote: I'm quite late to the discussion but something that may help restore a defender's advantage is some kind of warp-in jamming device. A bit like Terrans have sensor towers to detect enemy movement, Protoss could construct a jamming tower to prevent warp-ins in a particular area. I don't think the area of effect should obviously be nearly as big as the sensor tower's range, but something appropriate can be worked out. And for it to help defend against a 4gate, it should be available fairly early, maybe after Gateway or after the Cybernetics Core. Again, something which brings balance can be figured out. Comments? Criticisms (constructive)? What do you think? your making one unit that can only be specifically used in the mirror? this is a pretty bad idea... | ||
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iblink
Netherlands36 Posts
On September 11 2011 01:16 HolyHenk wrote: Warp gate is the big problem of protoss and it is probably extremely hard to balance for blizzard. The problem is that warp gates give a huge offensive advantage. Imagine terran or zerg having warp gates and instantly teleporting units to your base. This would be completely insane and thats why protoss units are made weaker. This way protoss might still have a small offensive advantage but the weaker units give a defensive disadvantage. Combine this with weak static defences and a lack of detection and you can see why protoss early game is so vulnerable. Protoss does have sentries to defend but the other races are figuring out ways to nullify them and they aren't that effecient on every map. The reason that the 1 - 1 -1 build is so strong is because it exploits the weaknesses of protoss. Forcefields are quite useless, you need observers and you need the power to defeat the opponents army. Give this man a medal. But seriously the problem when playing against 1-1-1 and the problem with protoss early game in general is exactly that: PROTOSS NEEDS DETECTION WITHOUT NECESSARILY GOING ROBO. Protoss needs more options for detection. | ||
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sc2trainer
63 Posts
On September 11 2011 05:48 iblink wrote: Give this man a medal. But seriously the problem when playing against 1-1-1 and the problem with protoss early game in general is exactly that: PROTOSS NEEDS DETECTION WITHOUT NECESSARILY GOING ROBO. Protoss needs more options for detection. not necessarily, they can use photon cannons | ||
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Aiurr
Poland80 Posts
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Gheed
United States972 Posts
On September 11 2011 05:48 iblink wrote: Give this man a medal. But seriously the problem when playing against 1-1-1 and the problem with protoss early game in general is exactly that: PROTOSS NEEDS DETECTION WITHOUT NECESSARILY GOING ROBO. Protoss needs more options for detection. Making your point bold and underlined doesn't make it correct. Cloaked banshees are tier 3 + upgrade, and not every 111 all-in uses them. It's perfectly reasonable to expect a player to have to build a tier 2 unit to detect a tier 3 cloaked unit. What would be the point of cloaked units if the effect of their cloaking was so easy nullified? That's not what the thread is about, anyway. | ||
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Sina92
Sweden1303 Posts
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susySquark
United States1692 Posts
On September 11 2011 06:02 Gheed wrote: Making your point bold and underlined doesn't make it correct. Cloaked banshees are tier 3 + upgrade, and not every 111 all-in uses them. It's perfectly reasonable to expect a player to have to build a tier 2 unit to detect a tier 3 cloaked unit. What would be the point of cloaked units if the effect of their cloaking was so easy nullified? That's not what the thread is about, anyway. I forget who did it in the GSL, but I've been opening expand into stargate, delayed robo. Scouting with the first phoenix, you have time to cancel your robo if you dont see cloak. Keep in mind cloak is more expensive than robo+obs. Phoenixes are total bosses at holding 1/1/1 too, lifting tanks and giving banshee killing power so you can make more zealots. Cloak also delays the 1/1/1 significantly. But thats a completely separate issue. If Toss had a better defense, you COULD commit the resources to a robo and still hold. I don't think robo tech detection is necessarily that bad. Remember when we had to get an observatory in addition to a robo? Good god. | ||
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