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A lot of people are getting the wrong idea... I edited in a new conclusion:
The differences in the races amounts to basic units and their defenders advantage. A Zealot, Stalker, Sentry army is equally good on offense and on defense. A Marine, Marauder force is good on offense, but BETTER on defense, because of bunkers and a shorter rally compared to their offense. Same goes for Zerg - a force at home is BETTER than an attacking force because of creep, spines, and relatively short rally. A defending Protoss army has literally no advantage compared to an attacking one, there is nothing to set the defending army above the attacking one. So, if a Protoss early expands, their weaker army cannot make up for their lack of size with any external forces like a Terran or Zerg one can, and is vulnerable to timing pushes from the enemy.
- An offensive and a defensive Protoss have the same rally distance.
- Protoss timing attacks with large armies are balanced against defensive, economic Terrans and Zergs (both races have economic openings that are ahead after defending a Protoss timing).
- Because of these two points, a defensive Protoss with an small unit count and economic opener is weak because what is normally a defenders advantage is not a defenders advantage for them, it's a given in both offense and defense.
- The lack of a defensive structure after gateway adds to this problem.
- Therefore, the lack of a strong defenders advantage means Protoss has no safe, economic openers.
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I think it'd be interesting if gateway units warped in without shields, and then the shields recharged as they do normally. This would weaken offensive warp-ins such as the pvp four-gate where you warp into their base.
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make gateways produce faster than warp gates do.
defender's advantage
macro reward
higher level decision making (gear up for attack? when to change gateways?)
4gate nerf
bam.
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The warp in mechanic by design should be a late game tech. If protoss stayed longer on Gateways with stronger gateway units. Most of these problems would be addressed.
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What happens if you don't upgrade warpgate? If warpgate is great as an offensive capability then why not delay warpgate and get an important tech up faster for defense like fast DTs?
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On September 09 2011 15:14 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 15:03 Nders wrote:
i really dont get the point of this discussion. All i see is how protoss have it easy because they can warp in units where they want, if they have pylon up, and how this deny defender advantage. This could be valid IF, and only IF, protoss would actually be winning each tournement like terrans are doing right now.
The whole thing about protoss can do that but not terran QQ is meaningless, terran is destroying everything everywhere, check all the last mlg, check the vast number of player that are able to qualify into code S, big majority are terran. Yeah sure protoss can warp in units, but this is way not OP as they really cant win atm.
This is like saying, well i find it annoying that i need active scouting and map awareness but any zerg that use creep correctly dont need that awareness because they see you come miles away. That is true they see you coming but that doesnt make it not fair. Zerg need that to survive as protoss need it to survive. whitout "abusing" warp in and sentry (forcefield), protoss units are extremelly weak, so to me this QQ about it is a big non sense. when Protoss get wise enough to see that warp prism is the "poor man's" version of blink for throwing units up a cliff during an all out attack, we'll see TvP numbers shift to favor the all inning protoss again. It mystifies me how an entire race can neglect to see the offensive power capabilities of warp prisms dropping units right on top of their heads. Zerg does this with bane bombs. Of course, to be fair, Zerg avoided winning a lot of months by neglecting infestor.
I... what? Never have I ever mentioned Protoss offense being too weak. How does making a warp prism help a weak Protoss defense? Are you saying to compensate for our weak defense, we should allin more with warp prisms?
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On September 09 2011 14:52 Truedot wrote:
I've always hated the warpgate as a zerg player. Theres a reason that 4 gate is standard against Zerg early game.
It allows you to create units that are more powerful in mass than zerg units, and it allows you to put them on the map anywhere, instantly reinforcing. Not only that but its frontloaded as opposed to rear loaded. So units come out before the end of the production cycle, not after. This makes it hugely in favor of protoss.
Why do you think KA was removed? Because of the underlying flaw of the core mechanic that was tied to what made KA so bad to have.
Warp gates are PURE win.
Quicker build time? Check.
Build anywhere on map? Check.
load units in front of the cycle instaed of at end? check.
Only costs 50/50? Check.
There is no drawback to having warpgates or going for them. theres no reason to have gateways instead of warpgates, even for the queuing procedure. Is Queue better than having your units pop out instantly anywhere on map?
its a nydus worm tied to your production facilities at 50/50 cost. and that nydus worm also speeds up production, even before chronoboost.
Protoss can zerg Zergs far more effectively, if they efficiently trade army with zerg and then hit their base right after, because I see more and more protoss CHOOSING to have 10+ warp gates by 18 minutes.
Why have that many? Because warp gate units are inefficent and you need to make up for that with greater throughput?
Hmm, doesn't that sound exactly like a ZERG mechanic?
So what you have is one race that has great survivability in blink stalkers and such, that can army trade and remax faster than a zerg, with chronos applied.
Makes sense right?
I remember in Brood war, Warp gate units were strong and the main for of P, supplemented by carriers or reavers.
Since when was 4 gate standard vs Z? You speak of warp gate having no drawbacks as if normal gateways were an option. You know, there are no drawbacks to making queens for injects.
I'm sure if given the proper scenario of a 3 base zerg vs 5 base protoss, the protoss will likely remax faster than the zerg. 18 minutes is also a rather subjective time. If the protoss is still on 3 base by the 18 minute mark, you'd likely have 10+ gateways, but you can support more than that.
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What about lowering the cost of the forge slightly, and possibly cannons as well? Or maybe buffing cannons so that they have more health/armour/damage?
This would make forge expands somewhat safer and more viable, increasing the defender's advantage for Protoss. However, it has no influence on any offensive advantage they enjoy, as it is unrelated to Warpgate units.
This would also help rail-road a Protoss into choosing to invest either into defense to make their economic opening safer, or offense in the form of more gateways and gateway units instead of a forge/cannons.
Also, we have to remember that you can't be greedy and safe at the same time. There's three basic openings: aggressive, greedy, and safe, and I'm over-simplifying a bit, but they form a kind of counter circle. Buffing cannons would make playing safe more viable, which is what the OP seems to be addressing, with the apparent weakness of a Protoss defender's advantage, when going for a strong economic opening.
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On September 09 2011 15:26 ducken wrote:
make gateways produce faster than warp gates do.
defender's advantage
macro reward
higher level decision making (gear up for attack? when to change gateways?)
4gate nerf
bam.
problems with proxy becoming OP ... bam!
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On September 09 2011 15:32 susySquark wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 15:14 Truedot wrote:On September 09 2011 15:03 Nders wrote:
i really dont get the point of this discussion. All i see is how protoss have it easy because they can warp in units where they want, if they have pylon up, and how this deny defender advantage. This could be valid IF, and only IF, protoss would actually be winning each tournement like terrans are doing right now.
The whole thing about protoss can do that but not terran QQ is meaningless, terran is destroying everything everywhere, check all the last mlg, check the vast number of player that are able to qualify into code S, big majority are terran. Yeah sure protoss can warp in units, but this is way not OP as they really cant win atm.
This is like saying, well i find it annoying that i need active scouting and map awareness but any zerg that use creep correctly dont need that awareness because they see you come miles away. That is true they see you coming but that doesnt make it not fair. Zerg need that to survive as protoss need it to survive. whitout "abusing" warp in and sentry (forcefield), protoss units are extremelly weak, so to me this QQ about it is a big non sense. when Protoss get wise enough to see that warp prism is the "poor man's" version of blink for throwing units up a cliff during an all out attack, we'll see TvP numbers shift to favor the all inning protoss again. It mystifies me how an entire race can neglect to see the offensive power capabilities of warp prisms dropping units right on top of their heads. Zerg does this with bane bombs. Of course, to be fair, Zerg avoided winning a lot of months by neglecting infestor. I... what? Never have I ever mentioned Protoss offense being too weak. How does making a warp prism help a weak Protoss defense? Are you saying to compensate for our weak defense, we should allin more with warp prisms?
Protoss have defender advantage on the attack right? Yet their defender advantage is still weak due to their units being weaker right? Terran have huge defender advantage right? Concave is the most basic element of gaining the upper hand in a fight right? warp prisms from the sides to warp in a bunch of units from chronod gates while a main force goes up the middle.
boom, dead terran and protoss get into code S and MLG.
Protoss winning is contingent on them taking the initiative I think. They are anti-zerg in that fashion at least.
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maybe this is why 1-1-1 wreck protoss faces? :/
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On September 09 2011 15:33 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 14:52 Truedot wrote:
I've always hated the warpgate as a zerg player. Theres a reason that 4 gate is standard against Zerg early game.
It allows you to create units that are more powerful in mass than zerg units, and it allows you to put them on the map anywhere, instantly reinforcing. Not only that but its frontloaded as opposed to rear loaded. So units come out before the end of the production cycle, not after. This makes it hugely in favor of protoss.
Why do you think KA was removed? Because of the underlying flaw of the core mechanic that was tied to what made KA so bad to have.
Warp gates are PURE win.
Quicker build time? Check.
Build anywhere on map? Check.
load units in front of the cycle instaed of at end? check.
Only costs 50/50? Check.
There is no drawback to having warpgates or going for them. theres no reason to have gateways instead of warpgates, even for the queuing procedure. Is Queue better than having your units pop out instantly anywhere on map?
its a nydus worm tied to your production facilities at 50/50 cost. and that nydus worm also speeds up production, even before chronoboost.
Protoss can zerg Zergs far more effectively, if they efficiently trade army with zerg and then hit their base right after, because I see more and more protoss CHOOSING to have 10+ warp gates by 18 minutes.
Why have that many? Because warp gate units are inefficent and you need to make up for that with greater throughput?
Hmm, doesn't that sound exactly like a ZERG mechanic?
So what you have is one race that has great survivability in blink stalkers and such, that can army trade and remax faster than a zerg, with chronos applied.
Makes sense right?
I remember in Brood war, Warp gate units were strong and the main for of P, supplemented by carriers or reavers. Since when was 4 gate standard vs Z? You speak of warp gate having no drawbacks as if normal gateways were an option. You know, there are no drawbacks to making queens for injects. I'm sure if given the proper scenario of a 3 base zerg vs 5 base protoss, the protoss will likely remax faster than the zerg. 18 minutes is also a rather subjective time. If the protoss is still on 3 base by the 18 minute mark, you'd likely have 10+ gateways, but you can support more than that.
actually there are. queens are a low hp (compared to warp gate hp) unit, snipable easily, require energy to actually work, UNLIKE warpgate, and don't cost 50/50 one time but 150 every time.
1 queen + 1 hatch = 500 minerals.
2 warpgates = 300.
and then you can throw chrono on top and get equal unit production with less minerals and stronger units, on a 1:1 basis with a zerg.
please.
Also base count isn't as important to protoss, warpgate count is. protoss can 1 base far more effectively than zerg. c/d? protoss can have maxed army easily on 2 base. c/d?
A zerg player must maintain a hatch to warpgate ratio of 2:3 or else be overwhelmed by protoss spam. And then on top they can spam anywhere on the map, negating zerg defender advantage.
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The title is quite misleading. It promotes the misconception that the warp mechanic somehow contributes to the lack of Protoss defender's advantage when the same claims would be applicable regardless of the means by which units are spawned. I'm not entirely convinced this is a prevalent problem for Protoss in early game scenarios but I can see how this issue might explain some of the results we have seen in the GSL.
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On September 09 2011 15:38 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 15:33 Tyrant0 wrote:On September 09 2011 14:52 Truedot wrote:
I've always hated the warpgate as a zerg player. Theres a reason that 4 gate is standard against Zerg early game.
It allows you to create units that are more powerful in mass than zerg units, and it allows you to put them on the map anywhere, instantly reinforcing. Not only that but its frontloaded as opposed to rear loaded. So units come out before the end of the production cycle, not after. This makes it hugely in favor of protoss.
Why do you think KA was removed? Because of the underlying flaw of the core mechanic that was tied to what made KA so bad to have.
Warp gates are PURE win.
Quicker build time? Check.
Build anywhere on map? Check.
load units in front of the cycle instaed of at end? check.
Only costs 50/50? Check.
There is no drawback to having warpgates or going for them. theres no reason to have gateways instead of warpgates, even for the queuing procedure. Is Queue better than having your units pop out instantly anywhere on map?
its a nydus worm tied to your production facilities at 50/50 cost. and that nydus worm also speeds up production, even before chronoboost.
Protoss can zerg Zergs far more effectively, if they efficiently trade army with zerg and then hit their base right after, because I see more and more protoss CHOOSING to have 10+ warp gates by 18 minutes.
Why have that many? Because warp gate units are inefficent and you need to make up for that with greater throughput?
Hmm, doesn't that sound exactly like a ZERG mechanic?
So what you have is one race that has great survivability in blink stalkers and such, that can army trade and remax faster than a zerg, with chronos applied.
Makes sense right?
I remember in Brood war, Warp gate units were strong and the main for of P, supplemented by carriers or reavers. Since when was 4 gate standard vs Z? You speak of warp gate having no drawbacks as if normal gateways were an option. You know, there are no drawbacks to making queens for injects. I'm sure if given the proper scenario of a 3 base zerg vs 5 base protoss, the protoss will likely remax faster than the zerg. 18 minutes is also a rather subjective time. If the protoss is still on 3 base by the 18 minute mark, you'd likely have 10+ gateways, but you can support more than that. actually there are. queens are a low hp (compared to warp gate hp) unit, snipable easily, require energy to actually work, UNLIKE warpgate, and don't cost 50/50 one time but 150 every time. 1 queen + 1 hatch = 500 minerals. 2 warpgates = 300. and then you can throw chrono on top and get equal unit production with less minerals and stronger units, on a 1:1 basis with a zerg. please.
I'm referring to the upgrade and general use of it, not the physical gateway building. I'm not sure if you could find a drawback to making a gateway, much like making a hatchery when you inevitably start with one.
But if you're going to argue that queens have a drawback as if they're less vital to zerg than warp gates are to protoss, go right ahead.
edit:
Also base count isn't as important to protoss, warpgate count is. protoss can 1 base far more effectively than zerg. c/d? protoss can have maxed army easily on 2 base. c/d?
A zerg player must maintain a hatch to warpgate ratio of 2:3 or else be overwhelmed by protoss spam. And then on top they can spam anywhere on the map, negating zerg defender advantage.
All of that is meaningless though. A competent zerg will take their natural 90% of the time unopposed versus a one base protoss. It's way too rare to even see a protoss stay on one base past six minutes, where the zerg is invited to their third if they hold the pressure/2 base all-in.
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On September 09 2011 15:36 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 15:32 susySquark wrote:On September 09 2011 15:14 Truedot wrote:On September 09 2011 15:03 Nders wrote:
i really dont get the point of this discussion. All i see is how protoss have it easy because they can warp in units where they want, if they have pylon up, and how this deny defender advantage. This could be valid IF, and only IF, protoss would actually be winning each tournement like terrans are doing right now.
The whole thing about protoss can do that but not terran QQ is meaningless, terran is destroying everything everywhere, check all the last mlg, check the vast number of player that are able to qualify into code S, big majority are terran. Yeah sure protoss can warp in units, but this is way not OP as they really cant win atm.
This is like saying, well i find it annoying that i need active scouting and map awareness but any zerg that use creep correctly dont need that awareness because they see you come miles away. That is true they see you coming but that doesnt make it not fair. Zerg need that to survive as protoss need it to survive. whitout "abusing" warp in and sentry (forcefield), protoss units are extremelly weak, so to me this QQ about it is a big non sense. when Protoss get wise enough to see that warp prism is the "poor man's" version of blink for throwing units up a cliff during an all out attack, we'll see TvP numbers shift to favor the all inning protoss again. It mystifies me how an entire race can neglect to see the offensive power capabilities of warp prisms dropping units right on top of their heads. Zerg does this with bane bombs. Of course, to be fair, Zerg avoided winning a lot of months by neglecting infestor. I... what? Never have I ever mentioned Protoss offense being too weak. How does making a warp prism help a weak Protoss defense? Are you saying to compensate for our weak defense, we should allin more with warp prisms? Protoss have defender advantage on the attack right? Yet their defender advantage is still weak due to their units being weaker right? Terran have huge defender advantage right? Concave is the most basic element of gaining the upper hand in a fight right? warp prisms from the sides to warp in a bunch of units from chronod gates while a main force goes up the middle. boom, dead terran and protoss get into code S and MLG. Protoss winning is contingent on them taking the initiative I think. They are anti-zerg in that fashion at least.
I think you misunderstand what I mean when I say defenders advantage. Protoss does not have a defenders advantage when attacking. They're freaking attacking. They simply have an army, which is large, and reinforced quickly.
... And I reread your post. Yes, you are telling Protosses to allin more with warp prisms. The discussion is about DEFENSE, not offense.
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On September 09 2011 15:26 susySquark wrote:A lot of people are getting the wrong idea... I edited in a new conclusion: The differences in the races amounts to basic units and their defenders advantage. A Zealot, Stalker, Sentry army is equally good on offense and on defense. A Marine, Marauder force is good on offense, but BETTER on defense, because of bunkers and a shorter rally compared to their offense. Same goes for Zerg - a force at home is BETTER than an attacking force because of creep, spines, and relatively short rally. A defending Protoss army has literally no advantage compared to an attacking one, there is nothing to set the defending army above the attacking one. So, if a Protoss early expands, their weaker army cannot make up for their lack of size with any external forces like a Terran or Zerg one can, and is vulnerable to timing pushes from the enemy. - An offensive and a defensive Protoss have the same rally distance.
- Protoss timing attacks with large armies are balanced against defensive, economic Terrans and Zergs (both races have economic openings that are ahead after defending a Protoss timing).
- Because of these two points, a defensive Protoss with an small unit count and economic opener is weak because what is normally a defenders advantage is not a defenders advantage for them, it's a given in both offense and defense.
- The lack of a defensive structure after gateway adds to this problem.
- Therefore, the lack of a strong defenders advantage means Protoss has no safe, economic openers.
This is a good conclusion.
Many months ago (7 months), I wrote a post entitled "Warpgates, a broken mechanic": http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189432 and suggested a nerf to WGs with a "nexus cannon" as a compensating solution. This is a non-detecting ground attack only defensive structure that can only be built within a certain radius of a nexus. The pre-requisite for this structure would be a gateway.
One thing I didn't mention in the post is also to re-balance the gateway building times for units. I found it a bit silly that WGs also allows for faster units.
A shield battery is a good alternative idea if it can only be built within a certain radius of a nexus. It's important to have this "nexus nearby" pre-requisite or the cheesy protosses will abuse it for offense.
Anyways, my feelings is that protoss is the "gimmick" race. There is also a higher tendency for the people that picked protoss to also be similarly gimmicky and all-inn'ish. With the other races now mastering ways to counter their gimmicks, protoss have been struggling. And I
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On September 09 2011 15:38 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 15:33 Tyrant0 wrote:On September 09 2011 14:52 Truedot wrote:
I've always hated the warpgate as a zerg player. Theres a reason that 4 gate is standard against Zerg early game.
It allows you to create units that are more powerful in mass than zerg units, and it allows you to put them on the map anywhere, instantly reinforcing. Not only that but its frontloaded as opposed to rear loaded. So units come out before the end of the production cycle, not after. This makes it hugely in favor of protoss.
Why do you think KA was removed? Because of the underlying flaw of the core mechanic that was tied to what made KA so bad to have.
Warp gates are PURE win.
Quicker build time? Check.
Build anywhere on map? Check.
load units in front of the cycle instaed of at end? check.
Only costs 50/50? Check.
There is no drawback to having warpgates or going for them. theres no reason to have gateways instead of warpgates, even for the queuing procedure. Is Queue better than having your units pop out instantly anywhere on map?
its a nydus worm tied to your production facilities at 50/50 cost. and that nydus worm also speeds up production, even before chronoboost.
Protoss can zerg Zergs far more effectively, if they efficiently trade army with zerg and then hit their base right after, because I see more and more protoss CHOOSING to have 10+ warp gates by 18 minutes.
Why have that many? Because warp gate units are inefficent and you need to make up for that with greater throughput?
Hmm, doesn't that sound exactly like a ZERG mechanic?
So what you have is one race that has great survivability in blink stalkers and such, that can army trade and remax faster than a zerg, with chronos applied.
Makes sense right?
I remember in Brood war, Warp gate units were strong and the main for of P, supplemented by carriers or reavers. Since when was 4 gate standard vs Z? You speak of warp gate having no drawbacks as if normal gateways were an option. You know, there are no drawbacks to making queens for injects. I'm sure if given the proper scenario of a 3 base zerg vs 5 base protoss, the protoss will likely remax faster than the zerg. 18 minutes is also a rather subjective time. If the protoss is still on 3 base by the 18 minute mark, you'd likely have 10+ gateways, but you can support more than that. actually there are. queens are a low hp (compared to warp gate hp) unit, snipable easily, require energy to actually work, UNLIKE warpgate, and don't cost 50/50 one time but 150 every time. 1 queen + 1 hatch = 500 minerals. 2 warpgates = 300. and then you can throw chrono on top and get equal unit production with less minerals and stronger units, on a 1:1 basis with a zerg. please. Also base count isn't as important to protoss, warpgate count is. protoss can 1 base far more effectively than zerg. c/d? protoss can have maxed army easily on 2 base. c/d? A zerg player must maintain a hatch to warpgate ratio of 2:3 or else be overwhelmed by protoss spam. And then on top they can spam anywhere on the map, negating zerg defender advantage.
And here you're saying a 4gate is unstoppably good in PvZ? No, sorry.
This is the misconception that everyone has. Protoss warpgate DOES NOT NEGATE DEFENDERS ADVANTAGE. Your defense still has a short rally compared to your offense, you still have creep, you still have spines. Protoss warpgate simply makes Protoss offense and defense the same. But your defense is supposed to be stronger per cost than your offense, which means that either: Protoss offense is too good, but defense is fine, or, as I'm arguing, Protoss offense is balanced, but defense is lacking.
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On September 09 2011 15:35 Kaolla wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 15:26 ducken wrote:
make gateways produce faster than warp gates do.
defender's advantage
macro reward
higher level decision making (gear up for attack? when to change gateways?)
4gate nerf
bam. problems with proxy becoming OP ... bam!
so your argument is that cheese and not reacting to cheese is op?
also i don't actually know this but could anyone tell me when protoss ever actually uses gateways when they have warpgate?
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I really do not mean to troll you, but it seems like this is your logic:
An offensive and a defensive Protoss have the same rally distance. Hence, Protoss doesnt have an advantage in defence, because it doesnt have a disadvantage in attack cuz of easy reinforcing, so it is pretty clear, that Protoss is weak.
I appreciate your work and the effort you put in it, but you really did not convince me, actually it is ridiculous, maybe i didnt understand it well enough.
Also: Protoss timing attacks with large armies are balanced against defensive, economic Terrans and Zergs (both races have economic openings that are ahead after defending a Protoss timing).
It would be a lot nicer and look less biased, if you'd say "allegedly" or "presumably" balanced timing atacks, and both of the other races have economic openings that are ahead IF they defend the protoss timing push, if not they just died.
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Very good post. It provides a very good theoretical argument for why balancing Protoss (and fixing the mirror) is inherently difficult.
There are certain situations in balancing where minor fixes (changing unit hp, cost, dmg, etc) cannot fix the game. In those certain cases a better theoretical understanding of game mechanics, in particular of defender's advantage, are necessary to make changes. I think you've found one of those tricky balance situations and it's awesome how you took the time to inform people of it.
I don't want to speculate too strongly, but having seen the poor Protoss performance recently there may come a time where Protoss needs to be given another source of defender's advantage (either through map design or game changes) in order to give them a more competitive edge. Who knows, maybe the shield battery will return.
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EPT
