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On September 09 2011 08:35 CatNzHat wrote:
The big problem is that you totally disregard the power of forcefields, even on an open battlefield, they can be used extremely effectively to defend. And the whole thing of the lack of defenders advantage is wrong, protoss attacks are a bit more powerful than the other races, and their defense has zero rally, while the opponnent has to rally cross-map, meaning toss will be ahead by a full production cycle (due to warpgate mechanics) and whatever the rally distance is, 45 seconds or so on xel naga ramp to ramp, much further on the more open maps like cross pos metal and tal darim.
Warpgate makes protoss way too powerful offensively, so they've messed the timings up, so that the original timing builds don't line up as they did before, however once toss players figured out new builds, their gateway pushes were just as strong as before, just different timings to punish different things.
Protoss ramps/chokes are almost impossible to break with ground armies due to FF, and offensive, protoss can contain you forever with just a few hundred gas and very small food investment, compared to other races, protoss has the cheapest space control throughout the game.
The warpgate mechanic is a bit powerful for my taste, I think there should be an upgrade mb from the robo support bay or twilight council that makes protoss pylons have a greater warp-in range, back to pre-pylon nerf times, but the starting range would be 3, so that you can't just warp in over the cliff in PvT and PvP. This would help stabilize the metagame a lot, and allow terrans and protoss players to create a hugely wider variety of different builds, mech openings could be more greedy for example.
Also, gateway units are not weak... before stim gateway units are more efficient than marauders, and even after stim, the cost of production for gateway units makes the same investment into gateways pay off more than the investment into barracks or roach/ling.
tl; dr:
1) Didn't take into account the rally distance for whoever's attacking the protoss player, combined with the reversed production cycles from protoss.
2) Forcefield is super effective, on open ground it can easily allow protoss to destroy an army much larger than their own, and on a choke it can make protoss nigh invincible.
3) Gateway units are efficient against bio and lings/roachs and can be easily micro'd to increase their efficiency further.
4) The space control potential for sentries is through the roof compared to the other race's options, 1 sentry can prevent terran from leaving their base until medivacs are out, or allow protoss to tech up to double upgrade colosus with only a single stalker and 4 sentries, and easily hold off any ground attacks on maps like shakuras or antiga.
"Also, gateway units are not weak... before stim gateway units are more efficient than marauders, and even after stim, the cost of production for gateway units makes the same investment into gateways pay off more than the investment into barracks or roach/ling."
where is your evidence for saying these things? Talking about balance is fine, but you have to back up your arguments, instead of trying to pass off your opinions as fact.
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Overall when I look at what Protoss is in SC2 it strikes me as what Terran was in SC1 (late game anyways). When they get into the later game it becomes a hard to kill ball type army, while in the early game it is fast pushes with an easier to kill (weaker unit) army.
I feel like to stop this mitigation of styles, Blizzard needs to make them stick to what they have been given late game. A few ways I was thinking that they could do this is by taking away the pylon warp in mechanic farther that is too far away from their base, what I mean by this is have a designated area around a nexus that allows units to be warped in that area (still by pylon radius).
Now to counter this I feel that Protoss units (mainly stalker) should have more armor, and move a little slower. maybe make all of their units a little better, make them cost a little more, I'm not sure so don't take that as my entire idea. Just something to throw out there.
This lets them stay truer to what they have become in SC2, instead of having these two drastically different styles that we see. This would also help in the late game, where the Protoss needs to have so many T3 units to kill bio armies and such.
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On September 09 2011 08:35 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 08:27 roymarthyup wrote:On September 09 2011 08:07 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 09 2011 07:03 roymarthyup wrote:On September 09 2011 07:00 Eppa! wrote:On September 09 2011 06:55 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 09 2011 06:54 roymarthyup wrote:On September 09 2011 06:34 Sevenofnines wrote:On September 09 2011 06:10 roymarthyup wrote:
protoss wouldnt stand a chance without warpgates because removing warpgates is a NERF. a strong nerf at that
if you removed warpgates, but instead made cybercores have a 50/50 upgrade that said "all warpgates now produce units 300% faster, units are the same cost, buildtimes are just reduced by75%" then protoss would still be the same early game but after getting that upgrade they would probably be able to do the sime timing attacks against zerg (maybe even stronger) while having a defenders advantage as well
the point of this post is gateway units are not made weaker to compensate for warpgates
INSTEAD, gateway unit BUILDTIMES are made longer to compensate for warpgates. and the cooldown on warping in is considered to be a buildtime.
essentially, the rate at which each production building can create gateway units is what blizzard uses to balance the strength of warpgates, not by making gateway units weaker
You are taking a far too limited view on warpgates. Yes of course the warpgate cooldown basically acts like a "buildtime". Thus over a very long period of time, the amount of units made via warpgates vs queues or whatever will be approximately the same. That isn't the issue with warpgates. The issue at hand is WHEN and WHERE those units become available. Warpgates get you the units up front (not X seconds later) and wherever you happen to need them. It is this tactical advantage that is the true power of warpgates, and that advantage has to be balanced out somewhere else. To put it another way, gateway units are being made weaker to compensate for the tactical advantages of warpgates, not their build cooldowns. The reason I bought up how Toss would fair without warpgates is because some folks are saying that there isn't ANY connection between gateway unit strength and warpgates. If that's the case, then you could just remove it and gateway units should perform similarly. OF COURSE I know its a nerf. I mentioned that SPECIFICALLY because its a massive nerf to gateway units. This means there MUST be a connection between warpgates and the strength of gateway units because the removal of warpgates is a huge nerf to gateway units. If there was no connection at all, it wouldn't be a nerf. if you did removed warpgates right now in the current game, essentially what that means is protoss defensive power STAYS THE SAME, but their offensive power GOES DOWN. this assumes buildtimes on the gateway are altered to let toss get out just as many defensive units as he could get with warpgates theres no connection between warpgates and gateway unit strength there IS a connection between warpgates the amount of units blizzard designed warpgates/gateways to be able to produce per minute i agree with you, the fact that gateways can warp in anywhere is the "problem" with the warpgate concept this means blizzard cannot make balance out defenders advantage and protoss aggression at the same time right now, protoss defensive abilities are underpowered. protoss has a weaker defenders advantage than they should. but this doesnt mean protoss units are weaker than other races units in a pure UNIT COST and UNIT STRENGTH and FOOD vs FOOD comparison, i do not believe stalkers and zealots and sentries are weaker then other races T1 units. and I believe in all situations where a protoss is being defensive, you COULD "just remove warpgates" and gateway units would perform similarly... however ONLY in defensive scenarios would this be true. if you removed warpgates, protoss would suck because the enemy would know there is zero chance of being in danger of aggression so the enemy would play the game knowing he doesnt have to fear aggression. warpgates are the source of protoss aggression, if you remove that, protoss would suck. HOWEVER, thats simply logical that removing warpgates would make protoss suck because a race with no aggressive options is sucky but its not because protoss units are weaker, its because protoss would no longer be able to move those units across the map instantly I believe in every scenario where a protoss is being defensive, if warpgates were removed the gateway units WOULD perform similarly as long as gateway buildtimes were adjusted to allow the protoss to crank out just as many units to defend with as before Even if buildtimes are the same switching to warpgate allows you to get out an additional round of units^^ You could make the gateway -> WG morph time 30 seconds. and what would that fix? were talking about something complete way off from your point some people are saying they think protoss t1 units are weaker because warpgates exist im saying zealots and stalkers and sentries are not "made weaker" to compensate for warpgates instead, blizzard balances warpgates so protoss offensive abilities are not oveprowered, but the BAD RESULT OF THIS is that protoss as a race has zero defenders advantage. if you somehow gave protoss defenders advantage by making warpgates make more units, it would make their offensive ability overpowered my point is that even if warpgates were removed, protoss still would defend just as well (as long as gateway build times are somehow adjusted to allow just as many units to come out) I know what you're saying, I just disagree. I do think they made Protoss t1 units weaker because warpgates exist, so that timing attacks aren't too powerful. I still can't wrap my head exactly around how you're trying to suggest Protoss has no defenders advantage. Warpgates (exception of the extra warpin round) is highly irrelevant of defender's advantage, which we seem to agree upon (assuming build times were adjusted), but how does this eliminate a defender's advantage? this is my explanation as to how warpgates eliminated protosses defenders advantage blizzards logic on how to balance warpgates is what removes protosses defenders advantage which should be there if the game is to be balanced zerg and terran both will have more units at their base if they are defending, and less units at the enemies base if they are attacking zerg and terran are both more powerful when they are on the defensive. zerg and terran are both weaker when they are on the offensive because of warpgates, PROTOSS has equal amounts of units whether he is attacking or defending this is due to blizzards logic behind how to make warpgates function. blizzards logic on how to balance warpgates is what what eliminates protosses defenders advantage as an entire race this, this statement right there means protoss has no defenders advantage as a race. protoss is not more powerful when it is on the defensive. i dont know how to explain it any clearer than that. because protoss is not more powerful when it is on the defensive, it means "protoss as a race has no defenders advantage" Oh, I see what you're saying. Haha, regardless, I still disagree completely. While Protoss will have the same amount of units when attacking or defending, the amount of units the Terran or Zerg units attacking/defending at that point in time will be different. You've already stated this, so we are agreeing on this point. Because when Protoss defends they will always be facing less units than if they were attacking, that is the defender's advantage, no? You could just as easily interpret your argument as saying that warpin removes the defender's advantage for T/Z when facing P, and only Protoss experiences a defender's advantage.
in a way yes and in a way no
in reality, defenders advantage for a race accounts for roughly 1 round of units. it takes units normally 30 seconds to walk across the map and reach battle, or around there. so its 1 round of units
this is a very simplified version of defenders advantage and how it works but its so complicated its hard to explain properly... but here it is...
if terran is attacking, he has 1 less round of units in his forces
if terran is defending, he has 1 more round of units in his forces
same can sort of be said for zerg
if terran is defending against zerg, his defenders advantage is strong because its
+1 round for terran, -1 round for zerg. a defenders advantage of +2 for terran.
same for a zerg defending against a terran
but warpgates is balanced to not be too strong offensively. so when protoss is defending he only has a +1 defenders advantage
so i guess, in a way protoss does have a slight defenders advantage due to the fact that zerg/terran are balanced to have a offenders handicap. but protosses defenders advantage is still less than zerg/terran
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On September 09 2011 08:48 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 08:35 CatNzHat wrote:
The big problem is that you totally disregard the power of forcefields, even on an open battlefield, they can be used extremely effectively to defend. And the whole thing of the lack of defenders advantage is wrong, protoss attacks are a bit more powerful than the other races, and their defense has zero rally, while the opponnent has to rally cross-map, meaning toss will be ahead by a full production cycle (due to warpgate mechanics) and whatever the rally distance is, 45 seconds or so on xel naga ramp to ramp, much further on the more open maps like cross pos metal and tal darim.
Warpgate makes protoss way too powerful offensively, so they've messed the timings up, so that the original timing builds don't line up as they did before, however once toss players figured out new builds, their gateway pushes were just as strong as before, just different timings to punish different things.
Protoss ramps/chokes are almost impossible to break with ground armies due to FF, and offensive, protoss can contain you forever with just a few hundred gas and very small food investment, compared to other races, protoss has the cheapest space control throughout the game.
The warpgate mechanic is a bit powerful for my taste, I think there should be an upgrade mb from the robo support bay or twilight council that makes protoss pylons have a greater warp-in range, back to pre-pylon nerf times, but the starting range would be 3, so that you can't just warp in over the cliff in PvT and PvP. This would help stabilize the metagame a lot, and allow terrans and protoss players to create a hugely wider variety of different builds, mech openings could be more greedy for example.
Also, gateway units are not weak... before stim gateway units are more efficient than marauders, and even after stim, the cost of production for gateway units makes the same investment into gateways pay off more than the investment into barracks or roach/ling.
tl; dr:
1) Didn't take into account the rally distance for whoever's attacking the protoss player, combined with the reversed production cycles from protoss.
2) Forcefield is super effective, on open ground it can easily allow protoss to destroy an army much larger than their own, and on a choke it can make protoss nigh invincible.
3) Gateway units are efficient against bio and lings/roachs and can be easily micro'd to increase their efficiency further.
4) The space control potential for sentries is through the roof compared to the other race's options, 1 sentry can prevent terran from leaving their base until medivacs are out, or allow protoss to tech up to double upgrade colosus with only a single stalker and 4 sentries, and easily hold off any ground attacks on maps like shakuras or antiga.
"Also, gateway units are not weak... before stim gateway units are more efficient than marauders, and even after stim, the cost of production for gateway units makes the same investment into gateways pay off more than the investment into barracks or roach/ling." where is your evidence for saying these things? Talking about balance is fine, but you have to back up your arguments, instead of trying to pass off your opinions as fact.
in a open field, zealot+sentry+stalker should beat marine/marauder before stim
after stim its pretty equal and gateway units are equal to bio units. but this is assume terran has no tanks or thors or ghosts.
tanks/thors/ghosts deal so much damage for their gas cost it will beat gateway units. and its sort of a design flay that its easy for terran to get a few tanks but its extremely hard for toss to get a few collossi or templars. but i wont go there. T1 bio with stim is about even to T1 gateway units
sure, zealot units cost more gas than terran units. marines are mineral only, marauders take almost no gas to build. sentries/stalkers are gas expensive units.
this means protoss is spending more gas early game where terran has the option of saving gas or not even getting gas
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You need some Q's to go with your sour grapes? Have you seen what force fields do to zerg ground forces? Do you know you can press G for guardian shield? L2P, use sentries and STFU ;-) How is getting a forge not tech? You know it's not only for getting cannons? That it can also be used to get upgrades, which by my count is two different kinds of tech...
Anyone else getting sick of the bufukinhu my race isn't OP anymore posts?
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zealot sentry stalker doesnt beat mm with stim efficiently
thats why protosses get colossus and HT
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On September 09 2011 09:10 oZe wrote:
You need some Q's to go with your sour grapes? Have you seen what force fields do to zerg ground forces? Do you know you can press G for guardian shield? L2P, use sentries and STFU ;-) How is getting a forge not tech? You know it's not only for getting cannons? That it can also be used to get upgrades, which by my count is two different kinds of tech...
Anyone else getting sick of the bufukinhu my race isn't OP anymore posts?
you sound mad
should probably get that checked out
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On September 09 2011 09:11 PPTouch wrote:
zealot sentry stalker doesnt beat mm with stim efficiently
thats why protosses get colossus and HT
it does, in equal foods, as long as the terran has no ghosts or thors or tanks or medivacs
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On September 09 2011 09:02 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 08:35 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 09 2011 08:27 roymarthyup wrote:On September 09 2011 08:07 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 09 2011 07:03 roymarthyup wrote:On September 09 2011 07:00 Eppa! wrote:On September 09 2011 06:55 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 09 2011 06:54 roymarthyup wrote:On September 09 2011 06:34 Sevenofnines wrote:On September 09 2011 06:10 roymarthyup wrote:
protoss wouldnt stand a chance without warpgates because removing warpgates is a NERF. a strong nerf at that
if you removed warpgates, but instead made cybercores have a 50/50 upgrade that said "all warpgates now produce units 300% faster, units are the same cost, buildtimes are just reduced by75%" then protoss would still be the same early game but after getting that upgrade they would probably be able to do the sime timing attacks against zerg (maybe even stronger) while having a defenders advantage as well
the point of this post is gateway units are not made weaker to compensate for warpgates
INSTEAD, gateway unit BUILDTIMES are made longer to compensate for warpgates. and the cooldown on warping in is considered to be a buildtime.
essentially, the rate at which each production building can create gateway units is what blizzard uses to balance the strength of warpgates, not by making gateway units weaker
You are taking a far too limited view on warpgates. Yes of course the warpgate cooldown basically acts like a "buildtime". Thus over a very long period of time, the amount of units made via warpgates vs queues or whatever will be approximately the same. That isn't the issue with warpgates. The issue at hand is WHEN and WHERE those units become available. Warpgates get you the units up front (not X seconds later) and wherever you happen to need them. It is this tactical advantage that is the true power of warpgates, and that advantage has to be balanced out somewhere else. To put it another way, gateway units are being made weaker to compensate for the tactical advantages of warpgates, not their build cooldowns. The reason I bought up how Toss would fair without warpgates is because some folks are saying that there isn't ANY connection between gateway unit strength and warpgates. If that's the case, then you could just remove it and gateway units should perform similarly. OF COURSE I know its a nerf. I mentioned that SPECIFICALLY because its a massive nerf to gateway units. This means there MUST be a connection between warpgates and the strength of gateway units because the removal of warpgates is a huge nerf to gateway units. If there was no connection at all, it wouldn't be a nerf. if you did removed warpgates right now in the current game, essentially what that means is protoss defensive power STAYS THE SAME, but their offensive power GOES DOWN. this assumes buildtimes on the gateway are altered to let toss get out just as many defensive units as he could get with warpgates theres no connection between warpgates and gateway unit strength there IS a connection between warpgates the amount of units blizzard designed warpgates/gateways to be able to produce per minute i agree with you, the fact that gateways can warp in anywhere is the "problem" with the warpgate concept this means blizzard cannot make balance out defenders advantage and protoss aggression at the same time right now, protoss defensive abilities are underpowered. protoss has a weaker defenders advantage than they should. but this doesnt mean protoss units are weaker than other races units in a pure UNIT COST and UNIT STRENGTH and FOOD vs FOOD comparison, i do not believe stalkers and zealots and sentries are weaker then other races T1 units. and I believe in all situations where a protoss is being defensive, you COULD "just remove warpgates" and gateway units would perform similarly... however ONLY in defensive scenarios would this be true. if you removed warpgates, protoss would suck because the enemy would know there is zero chance of being in danger of aggression so the enemy would play the game knowing he doesnt have to fear aggression. warpgates are the source of protoss aggression, if you remove that, protoss would suck. HOWEVER, thats simply logical that removing warpgates would make protoss suck because a race with no aggressive options is sucky but its not because protoss units are weaker, its because protoss would no longer be able to move those units across the map instantly I believe in every scenario where a protoss is being defensive, if warpgates were removed the gateway units WOULD perform similarly as long as gateway buildtimes were adjusted to allow the protoss to crank out just as many units to defend with as before Even if buildtimes are the same switching to warpgate allows you to get out an additional round of units^^ You could make the gateway -> WG morph time 30 seconds. and what would that fix? were talking about something complete way off from your point some people are saying they think protoss t1 units are weaker because warpgates exist im saying zealots and stalkers and sentries are not "made weaker" to compensate for warpgates instead, blizzard balances warpgates so protoss offensive abilities are not oveprowered, but the BAD RESULT OF THIS is that protoss as a race has zero defenders advantage. if you somehow gave protoss defenders advantage by making warpgates make more units, it would make their offensive ability overpowered my point is that even if warpgates were removed, protoss still would defend just as well (as long as gateway build times are somehow adjusted to allow just as many units to come out) I know what you're saying, I just disagree. I do think they made Protoss t1 units weaker because warpgates exist, so that timing attacks aren't too powerful. I still can't wrap my head exactly around how you're trying to suggest Protoss has no defenders advantage. Warpgates (exception of the extra warpin round) is highly irrelevant of defender's advantage, which we seem to agree upon (assuming build times were adjusted), but how does this eliminate a defender's advantage? this is my explanation as to how warpgates eliminated protosses defenders advantage blizzards logic on how to balance warpgates is what removes protosses defenders advantage which should be there if the game is to be balanced zerg and terran both will have more units at their base if they are defending, and less units at the enemies base if they are attacking zerg and terran are both more powerful when they are on the defensive. zerg and terran are both weaker when they are on the offensive because of warpgates, PROTOSS has equal amounts of units whether he is attacking or defending this is due to blizzards logic behind how to make warpgates function. blizzards logic on how to balance warpgates is what what eliminates protosses defenders advantage as an entire race this, this statement right there means protoss has no defenders advantage as a race. protoss is not more powerful when it is on the defensive. i dont know how to explain it any clearer than that. because protoss is not more powerful when it is on the defensive, it means "protoss as a race has no defenders advantage" Oh, I see what you're saying. Haha, regardless, I still disagree completely. While Protoss will have the same amount of units when attacking or defending, the amount of units the Terran or Zerg units attacking/defending at that point in time will be different. You've already stated this, so we are agreeing on this point. Because when Protoss defends they will always be facing less units than if they were attacking, that is the defender's advantage, no? You could just as easily interpret your argument as saying that warpin removes the defender's advantage for T/Z when facing P, and only Protoss experiences a defender's advantage. in a way yes and in a way no in reality, defenders advantage for a race accounts for roughly 1 round of units. it takes units normally 30 seconds to walk across the map and reach battle, or around there. so its 1 round of units this is a very simplified version of defenders advantage and how it works but its so complicated its hard to explain properly... but here it is... if terran is attacking, he has 1 less round of units in his forces if terran is defending, he has 1 more round of units in his forces same can sort of be said for zerg if terran is defending against zerg, his defenders advantage is strong because its +1 round for terran, -1 round for zerg. a defenders advantage of +2 for terran. same for a zerg defending against a terran but warpgates is balanced to not be too strong offensively. so when protoss is defending he only has a +1 defenders advantage so i guess, in a way protoss does have a slight defenders advantage due to the fact that zerg/terran are balanced to have a offenders handicap. but protosses defenders advantage is still less than zerg/terran
That doesn't make any sense at all. +1 and -1 relative to what?
Defender's advantage by army numbers is very simple. Attacker is at -1 round compared to the defender because his reinforcements are still walking across the map, while the defender's are where they need to be. Defender's advantage is relative to the attacker only.
So T and Z are both -1 when attacking. Protoss, however, is not. Protoss with forward warpins has a defender's advantage in the other guy's base. That's the power of warpin, and why toss gateway is crap cost-for-cost against the other races.
But defender's advantage is not just about unit counts. Creep for Z, static defenses for Z and T, and FF for toss all contribute to defender's advantage. Toss is stronger on the attack by raw round count, but Z and T in particular don't rely solely on numbers, and their units are more cost-efficient.
But, as long as it's still possible to warp-in over forcefields, toss does not have such secondary measures against another protoss, which is why PvP and PvP alone is aggressively broken at the warpgate timing.
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On September 09 2011 09:02 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 08:35 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 09 2011 08:27 roymarthyup wrote:On September 09 2011 08:07 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 09 2011 07:03 roymarthyup wrote:On September 09 2011 07:00 Eppa! wrote:On September 09 2011 06:55 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 09 2011 06:54 roymarthyup wrote:On September 09 2011 06:34 Sevenofnines wrote:On September 09 2011 06:10 roymarthyup wrote:
protoss wouldnt stand a chance without warpgates because removing warpgates is a NERF. a strong nerf at that
if you removed warpgates, but instead made cybercores have a 50/50 upgrade that said "all warpgates now produce units 300% faster, units are the same cost, buildtimes are just reduced by75%" then protoss would still be the same early game but after getting that upgrade they would probably be able to do the sime timing attacks against zerg (maybe even stronger) while having a defenders advantage as well
the point of this post is gateway units are not made weaker to compensate for warpgates
INSTEAD, gateway unit BUILDTIMES are made longer to compensate for warpgates. and the cooldown on warping in is considered to be a buildtime.
essentially, the rate at which each production building can create gateway units is what blizzard uses to balance the strength of warpgates, not by making gateway units weaker
You are taking a far too limited view on warpgates. Yes of course the warpgate cooldown basically acts like a "buildtime". Thus over a very long period of time, the amount of units made via warpgates vs queues or whatever will be approximately the same. That isn't the issue with warpgates. The issue at hand is WHEN and WHERE those units become available. Warpgates get you the units up front (not X seconds later) and wherever you happen to need them. It is this tactical advantage that is the true power of warpgates, and that advantage has to be balanced out somewhere else. To put it another way, gateway units are being made weaker to compensate for the tactical advantages of warpgates, not their build cooldowns. The reason I bought up how Toss would fair without warpgates is because some folks are saying that there isn't ANY connection between gateway unit strength and warpgates. If that's the case, then you could just remove it and gateway units should perform similarly. OF COURSE I know its a nerf. I mentioned that SPECIFICALLY because its a massive nerf to gateway units. This means there MUST be a connection between warpgates and the strength of gateway units because the removal of warpgates is a huge nerf to gateway units. If there was no connection at all, it wouldn't be a nerf. if you did removed warpgates right now in the current game, essentially what that means is protoss defensive power STAYS THE SAME, but their offensive power GOES DOWN. this assumes buildtimes on the gateway are altered to let toss get out just as many defensive units as he could get with warpgates theres no connection between warpgates and gateway unit strength there IS a connection between warpgates the amount of units blizzard designed warpgates/gateways to be able to produce per minute i agree with you, the fact that gateways can warp in anywhere is the "problem" with the warpgate concept this means blizzard cannot make balance out defenders advantage and protoss aggression at the same time right now, protoss defensive abilities are underpowered. protoss has a weaker defenders advantage than they should. but this doesnt mean protoss units are weaker than other races units in a pure UNIT COST and UNIT STRENGTH and FOOD vs FOOD comparison, i do not believe stalkers and zealots and sentries are weaker then other races T1 units. and I believe in all situations where a protoss is being defensive, you COULD "just remove warpgates" and gateway units would perform similarly... however ONLY in defensive scenarios would this be true. if you removed warpgates, protoss would suck because the enemy would know there is zero chance of being in danger of aggression so the enemy would play the game knowing he doesnt have to fear aggression. warpgates are the source of protoss aggression, if you remove that, protoss would suck. HOWEVER, thats simply logical that removing warpgates would make protoss suck because a race with no aggressive options is sucky but its not because protoss units are weaker, its because protoss would no longer be able to move those units across the map instantly I believe in every scenario where a protoss is being defensive, if warpgates were removed the gateway units WOULD perform similarly as long as gateway buildtimes were adjusted to allow the protoss to crank out just as many units to defend with as before Even if buildtimes are the same switching to warpgate allows you to get out an additional round of units^^ You could make the gateway -> WG morph time 30 seconds. and what would that fix? were talking about something complete way off from your point some people are saying they think protoss t1 units are weaker because warpgates exist im saying zealots and stalkers and sentries are not "made weaker" to compensate for warpgates instead, blizzard balances warpgates so protoss offensive abilities are not oveprowered, but the BAD RESULT OF THIS is that protoss as a race has zero defenders advantage. if you somehow gave protoss defenders advantage by making warpgates make more units, it would make their offensive ability overpowered my point is that even if warpgates were removed, protoss still would defend just as well (as long as gateway build times are somehow adjusted to allow just as many units to come out) I know what you're saying, I just disagree. I do think they made Protoss t1 units weaker because warpgates exist, so that timing attacks aren't too powerful. I still can't wrap my head exactly around how you're trying to suggest Protoss has no defenders advantage. Warpgates (exception of the extra warpin round) is highly irrelevant of defender's advantage, which we seem to agree upon (assuming build times were adjusted), but how does this eliminate a defender's advantage? this is my explanation as to how warpgates eliminated protosses defenders advantage blizzards logic on how to balance warpgates is what removes protosses defenders advantage which should be there if the game is to be balanced zerg and terran both will have more units at their base if they are defending, and less units at the enemies base if they are attacking zerg and terran are both more powerful when they are on the defensive. zerg and terran are both weaker when they are on the offensive because of warpgates, PROTOSS has equal amounts of units whether he is attacking or defending this is due to blizzards logic behind how to make warpgates function. blizzards logic on how to balance warpgates is what what eliminates protosses defenders advantage as an entire race this, this statement right there means protoss has no defenders advantage as a race. protoss is not more powerful when it is on the defensive. i dont know how to explain it any clearer than that. because protoss is not more powerful when it is on the defensive, it means "protoss as a race has no defenders advantage" Oh, I see what you're saying. Haha, regardless, I still disagree completely. While Protoss will have the same amount of units when attacking or defending, the amount of units the Terran or Zerg units attacking/defending at that point in time will be different. You've already stated this, so we are agreeing on this point. Because when Protoss defends they will always be facing less units than if they were attacking, that is the defender's advantage, no? You could just as easily interpret your argument as saying that warpin removes the defender's advantage for T/Z when facing P, and only Protoss experiences a defender's advantage. in a way yes and in a way no in reality, defenders advantage for a race accounts for roughly 1 round of units. it takes units normally 30 seconds to walk across the map and reach battle, or around there. so its 1 round of units this is a very simplified version of defenders advantage and how it works but its so complicated its hard to explain properly... but here it is... if terran is attacking, he has 1 less round of units in his forces if terran is defending, he has 1 more round of units in his forces same can sort of be said for zerg if terran is defending against zerg, his defenders advantage is strong because its +1 round for terran, -1 round for zerg. a defenders advantage of +2 for terran. same for a zerg defending against a terran but warpgates is balanced to not be too strong offensively. so when protoss is defending he only has a +1 defenders advantage so i guess, in a way protoss does have a slight defenders advantage due to the fact that zerg/terran are balanced to have a offenders handicap. but protosses defenders advantage is still less than zerg/terran
I can agree with that^^. Although another part of defender's advantage is being able to see them move out and respond accordingly by Chrono, etc. I know it's SC2 specific and you hypothetically could have gotten the exact same units attacking, but it's just something to consider.
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On September 09 2011 09:14 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 09:11 PPTouch wrote:
zealot sentry stalker doesnt beat mm with stim efficiently
thats why protosses get colossus and HT it does, in equal foods, as long as the terran has no ghosts or thors or tanks or medivacs
naw terran t1 is snowball once they get past 35 supply of army and know how to kite terran t1 will trump protoss t1 so long as the terran isnt retarded and runs into range of sentries to cast ffs
ff range is pretty low and sentries are pretty slow
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On September 09 2011 09:14 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 09:02 roymarthyup wrote:On September 09 2011 08:35 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 09 2011 08:27 roymarthyup wrote:On September 09 2011 08:07 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 09 2011 07:03 roymarthyup wrote:On September 09 2011 07:00 Eppa! wrote:On September 09 2011 06:55 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 09 2011 06:54 roymarthyup wrote:On September 09 2011 06:34 Sevenofnines wrote:
[quote]
You are taking a far too limited view on warpgates. Yes of course the warpgate cooldown basically acts like a "buildtime". Thus over a very long period of time, the amount of units made via warpgates vs queues or whatever will be approximately the same. That isn't the issue with warpgates. The issue at hand is WHEN and WHERE those units become available. Warpgates get you the units up front (not X seconds later) and wherever you happen to need them. It is this tactical advantage that is the true power of warpgates, and that advantage has to be balanced out somewhere else. To put it another way, gateway units are being made weaker to compensate for the tactical advantages of warpgates, not their build cooldowns.
The reason I bought up how Toss would fair without warpgates is because some folks are saying that there isn't ANY connection between gateway unit strength and warpgates. If that's the case, then you could just remove it and gateway units should perform similarly. OF COURSE I know its a nerf. I mentioned that SPECIFICALLY because its a massive nerf to gateway units. This means there MUST be a connection between warpgates and the strength of gateway units because the removal of warpgates is a huge nerf to gateway units. If there was no connection at all, it wouldn't be a nerf. if you did removed warpgates right now in the current game, essentially what that means is protoss defensive power STAYS THE SAME, but their offensive power GOES DOWN. this assumes buildtimes on the gateway are altered to let toss get out just as many defensive units as he could get with warpgates theres no connection between warpgates and gateway unit strength there IS a connection between warpgates the amount of units blizzard designed warpgates/gateways to be able to produce per minute i agree with you, the fact that gateways can warp in anywhere is the "problem" with the warpgate concept this means blizzard cannot make balance out defenders advantage and protoss aggression at the same time right now, protoss defensive abilities are underpowered. protoss has a weaker defenders advantage than they should. but this doesnt mean protoss units are weaker than other races units in a pure UNIT COST and UNIT STRENGTH and FOOD vs FOOD comparison, i do not believe stalkers and zealots and sentries are weaker then other races T1 units. and I believe in all situations where a protoss is being defensive, you COULD "just remove warpgates" and gateway units would perform similarly... however ONLY in defensive scenarios would this be true. if you removed warpgates, protoss would suck because the enemy would know there is zero chance of being in danger of aggression so the enemy would play the game knowing he doesnt have to fear aggression. warpgates are the source of protoss aggression, if you remove that, protoss would suck. HOWEVER, thats simply logical that removing warpgates would make protoss suck because a race with no aggressive options is sucky but its not because protoss units are weaker, its because protoss would no longer be able to move those units across the map instantly I believe in every scenario where a protoss is being defensive, if warpgates were removed the gateway units WOULD perform similarly as long as gateway buildtimes were adjusted to allow the protoss to crank out just as many units to defend with as before Even if buildtimes are the same switching to warpgate allows you to get out an additional round of units^^ You could make the gateway -> WG morph time 30 seconds. and what would that fix? were talking about something complete way off from your point some people are saying they think protoss t1 units are weaker because warpgates exist im saying zealots and stalkers and sentries are not "made weaker" to compensate for warpgates instead, blizzard balances warpgates so protoss offensive abilities are not oveprowered, but the BAD RESULT OF THIS is that protoss as a race has zero defenders advantage. if you somehow gave protoss defenders advantage by making warpgates make more units, it would make their offensive ability overpowered my point is that even if warpgates were removed, protoss still would defend just as well (as long as gateway build times are somehow adjusted to allow just as many units to come out) I know what you're saying, I just disagree. I do think they made Protoss t1 units weaker because warpgates exist, so that timing attacks aren't too powerful. I still can't wrap my head exactly around how you're trying to suggest Protoss has no defenders advantage. Warpgates (exception of the extra warpin round) is highly irrelevant of defender's advantage, which we seem to agree upon (assuming build times were adjusted), but how does this eliminate a defender's advantage? this is my explanation as to how warpgates eliminated protosses defenders advantage blizzards logic on how to balance warpgates is what removes protosses defenders advantage which should be there if the game is to be balanced zerg and terran both will have more units at their base if they are defending, and less units at the enemies base if they are attacking zerg and terran are both more powerful when they are on the defensive. zerg and terran are both weaker when they are on the offensive because of warpgates, PROTOSS has equal amounts of units whether he is attacking or defending this is due to blizzards logic behind how to make warpgates function. blizzards logic on how to balance warpgates is what what eliminates protosses defenders advantage as an entire race this, this statement right there means protoss has no defenders advantage as a race. protoss is not more powerful when it is on the defensive. i dont know how to explain it any clearer than that. because protoss is not more powerful when it is on the defensive, it means "protoss as a race has no defenders advantage" Oh, I see what you're saying. Haha, regardless, I still disagree completely. While Protoss will have the same amount of units when attacking or defending, the amount of units the Terran or Zerg units attacking/defending at that point in time will be different. You've already stated this, so we are agreeing on this point. Because when Protoss defends they will always be facing less units than if they were attacking, that is the defender's advantage, no? You could just as easily interpret your argument as saying that warpin removes the defender's advantage for T/Z when facing P, and only Protoss experiences a defender's advantage. in a way yes and in a way no in reality, defenders advantage for a race accounts for roughly 1 round of units. it takes units normally 30 seconds to walk across the map and reach battle, or around there. so its 1 round of units this is a very simplified version of defenders advantage and how it works but its so complicated its hard to explain properly... but here it is... if terran is attacking, he has 1 less round of units in his forces if terran is defending, he has 1 more round of units in his forces same can sort of be said for zerg if terran is defending against zerg, his defenders advantage is strong because its +1 round for terran, -1 round for zerg. a defenders advantage of +2 for terran. same for a zerg defending against a terran but warpgates is balanced to not be too strong offensively. so when protoss is defending he only has a +1 defenders advantage so i guess, in a way protoss does have a slight defenders advantage due to the fact that zerg/terran are balanced to have a offenders handicap. but protosses defenders advantage is still less than zerg/terran That doesn't make any sense at all. +1 and -1 relative to what? Defender's advantage by army numbers is very simple. Attacker is at -1 round compared to the defender because his reinforcements are still walking across the map, while the defender's are where they need to be. Defender's advantage is relative to the attacker only. So T and Z are both -1 when attacking. Protoss, however, is not. Protoss with forward warpins has a defender's advantage in the other guy's base. That's the power of warpin, and why toss gateway is crap cost-for-cost against the other races. But defender's advantage is not just about unit counts. Creep for Z, static defenses for Z and T, and FF for toss all contribute to defender's advantage. Toss is stronger on the attack by raw round count, but Z and T in particular don't rely solely on numbers, and their units are more cost-efficient. But, as long as it's still possible to warp-in over forcefields, toss does not have such secondary measures against another protoss, which is why PvP and PvP alone is aggressively broken at the warpgate timing.
relative to the fact that zerg/terran have the option to press a button that says "i will have more units and i will be stronger, but i can only defend"
protoss doesnt have that option
as a result, protoss has a weaker defenders advantage. i guess i shouldnt say its zero, but the fact is protoss does not have a option to press that button. zerg/terran do
based on pure logic, protoss has less of a defenders advantage, based on pure logic of unit numbers and where they can be at a certain time.
terran "as a race" has more of a defenders advantage than protoss purely based off the fact that they can choose to only defend and it gives them a larger army
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On September 09 2011 09:16 PPTouch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 09:14 roymarthyup wrote:On September 09 2011 09:11 PPTouch wrote:
zealot sentry stalker doesnt beat mm with stim efficiently
thats why protosses get colossus and HT it does, in equal foods, as long as the terran has no ghosts or thors or tanks or medivacs naw terran t1 is snowball once they get past 35 supply of army and know how to kite terran t1 will trump protoss t1 so long as the terran isnt retarded and runs into range of sentries to cast ffsff range is pretty low and sentries are pretty slow
ff range is long enough. if both players have good micro, mm cannot kite gateway units if its equal foods vs equal foods, FF will prevent kiting. guardian shield makes marauders do super low dps to zealots
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On September 09 2011 09:16 PPTouch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 09:14 roymarthyup wrote:On September 09 2011 09:11 PPTouch wrote:
zealot sentry stalker doesnt beat mm with stim efficiently
thats why protosses get colossus and HT it does, in equal foods, as long as the terran has no ghosts or thors or tanks or medivacs naw terran t1 is snowball once they get past 35 supply of army and know how to kite terran t1 will trump protoss t1 so long as the terran isnt retarded and runs into range of sentries to cast ffsff range is pretty low and sentries are pretty slow
Only if Terran has stim, combat shields, and conc though, while Toss having no upgrades. A 1/1 toss T1 army can compete. Only comparable thing to measure really since Charge/Blink are so much further ahead.
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very nice read, and sheild battery would be so awesome
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Good but interesting post.
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I think the warpgate mechanic adds a lot of diversity to the protoss race but att he price of having less cost efficient units. I think having the warpgate mechanic makes toss unique and i would not want it to be nerfed. But i agree that something needs to be done to give protoss a defensive advantage and shield battery does sound like a good idea. It even requires micro which is what protoss is all about
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Excellent analysis. It's the lack of a defensive structure on the standard tech path that makes fast expanding as Protoss so risky. We saw HuK for example punished for this trying 1 gate expands versus a top tier terran in GSL. Sure it works on ladder against lesser players, but against the best players it loses due to lack of a defenders advantage. A shield battery or something that could only be used in a defensive fashion would really help to allow a fast expo (without forge first) style Protoss to evolve.
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On September 09 2011 09:19 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 09:16 PPTouch wrote:On September 09 2011 09:14 roymarthyup wrote:On September 09 2011 09:11 PPTouch wrote:
zealot sentry stalker doesnt beat mm with stim efficiently
thats why protosses get colossus and HT it does, in equal foods, as long as the terran has no ghosts or thors or tanks or medivacs naw terran t1 is snowball once they get past 35 supply of army and know how to kite terran t1 will trump protoss t1 so long as the terran isnt retarded and runs into range of sentries to cast ffsff range is pretty low and sentries are pretty slow Only if Terran has stim, combat shields, and conc though, while Toss having no upgrades. A 1/1 toss T1 army can compete. Only comparable thing to measure really since Charge/Blink are so much further ahead.
Stim is enough.
In fact, if the Protoss doesn't get any aoe, you don't actually need Marauders for anything, past a certain supply threshold.
There's a point, around 30 supply, where the synergy between Zealots and Sentries is the strongest, and then Gateway armies can trade efficiently with Bio. But if you go significantly above that, you will lose, no matter tha upgrades. Take it from someone who plays Tyler's build on ladder fairly often - I've had games where 70 supply of Zealot/Stalker/Sentry at 2/2 got rolled by 70 supply of Bio at 1/0. Like, it wasn't even close, Terran didn't even need to kite, just spread his stuff into an arc during the battle. Once they kill the Zealots, you lose instantly.
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On September 09 2011 09:17 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 09:14 Belisarius wrote:
That doesn't make any sense at all. +1 and -1 relative to what?
Defender's advantage by army numbers is very simple. Attacker is at -1 round compared to the defender because his reinforcements are still walking across the map, while the defender's are where they need to be. Defender's advantage is relative to the attacker only.
So T and Z are both -1 when attacking. Protoss, however, is not. Protoss with forward warpins has a defender's advantage in the other guy's base. That's the power of warpin, and why toss gateway is crap cost-for-cost against the other races.
But defender's advantage is not just about unit counts. Creep for Z, static defenses for Z and T, and FF for toss all contribute to defender's advantage. Toss is stronger on the attack by raw round count, but Z and T in particular don't rely solely on numbers, and their units are more cost-efficient.
But, as long as it's still possible to warp-in over forcefields, toss does not have such secondary measures against another protoss, which is why PvP and PvP alone is aggressively broken at the warpgate timing. relative to the fact that zerg/terran have the option to press a button that says "i will have more units and i will be stronger, but i can only defend" protoss doesnt have that option as a result, protoss has a weaker defenders advantage. i guess i shouldnt say its zero, but the fact is protoss does not have a option to press that button. zerg/terran do based on pure logic, protoss has less of a defenders advantage, based on pure logic of unit numbers and where they can be at a certain time. terran "as a race" has more of a defenders advantage than protoss purely based off the fact that they can choose to only defend and it gives them a larger army
...what the heck button are you talking about? There's absolutely nothing in the terran arsenal that gives them a larger army but forces them to defend with it. Literally nothing.
Terran have bunkers (which are amazing) and units which are more cost-effective (which is also amazing). But those have nothing to do with having a larger army, nor do they lock him into defending. The terran can take his cost efficient army right the hell up to your nat whenever he likes; he can even build bunkers and siege up tanks there.
It's conceivably possible to say Z have such a button with their larvae mechanic, but that's balanced by their needing larvae for drones as well as military. Zerg's defender's advantage early game comes from creep speed, spine crawlers, queens, and their ability to rapidly create reactive compositions.
I agree that protoss have the least defender's advantage once they've expanded past their ramp. But it's really not for the reasons you're stating.
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EPT
