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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 17 2011 11:01 Tump wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 10:45 Falcor wrote:On September 17 2011 10:34 AIRwar wrote:On September 17 2011 10:30 Xequecal wrote:
Guys, the idea behind range 7 is to make NPing colossi basically impossible, while still allowing thors to be NPed, That was the big problem with the massive change, thor/hellion was ridiculous.
Protoss need their colossi to function because they don't have a super-strong base unit like the marine or roach. Roaches utterly annihilate any combination of Protoss ground units that doesn't include colossus. This. Everyone listen to this person because he's smarter than most of you. except why should protoss in every situation just make colli? Why are colli better at killing roaches when immortal was built to kill roach/tanks/thor?? Splash damage? Immortals are nice for smaller fights, but huge supply fights Colossus are really nice...and splash damage synergy with forcefield is pretty great.
it was a rhetorical question....there shouldnt be 1 unit you get no matter what. Which was why infestors were a problem before the patch imo.
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with the +1 range buff on immortals and -2 range on NP, immortals now become extremely hard to neural parasite as well. I know these units are not very often used IN 1v1, but motherships and carriers will be ridiculously hard to NP. I'd say zerg is already weak in FFAs and team games (aside from just abusing terran medivacs), and reducing neural parasite's range puts another nail in their board.
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I just realized that blueflame nerf might make lings more viable against mech, compensating the infestor nerf. I still don't get the barrack build time nerf...most zerg adapts to 2 rax pretty well already. So, it's suppose to make 11/12 rax weaker on close position?
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On September 17 2011 10:45 Falcor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 10:34 AIRwar wrote:On September 17 2011 10:30 Xequecal wrote:
Guys, the idea behind range 7 is to make NPing colossi basically impossible, while still allowing thors to be NPed, That was the big problem with the massive change, thor/hellion was ridiculous.
Protoss need their colossi to function because they don't have a super-strong base unit like the marine or roach. Roaches utterly annihilate any combination of Protoss ground units that doesn't include colossus. This. Everyone listen to this person because he's smarter than most of you. except why should protoss in every situation just make colli? Why are colli better at killing roaches when immortal was built to kill roach/tanks/thor??
Protoss gateway units are pitiful. They are weak because of the Warpgate mechanic. I know I'm stating news from Feb. 2010, but Protoss needs something on the field to compensate.
As army supplies grow, Protoss has more of those weaker gateway units, while the enemy's Tier 1-2, which is better, continues to bolster the enemy's army's power at a faster pace. Basically, the larger the armies grow, the worse off Protoss is.
The issue with Immortals is you won't have enough. It's not like you're going to have 12 Immortals on the field. I'm the type who gets double robo once on a 3rd base, and I never have that many Immortals, and I love immortals. While robust, Immortals can easily be extinguished and they don't do splash damage... when most of the army is Tier 1 that is bad compared to the enemy's counterpart. Not having splash damage to compensate for a weaker army (nevermind to counteract Zerg splash damage from FG) is suicidal.
The Protoss chose something different, they chose the impossible, they chose.... RAPTURE! uhh I mean COLOSSI! A unit where the Stalker would not fear the Hydra, where the army would not be bound by petty Fungal Growth, where the mighty Protoss would not be constrained by the Zerg. And with your minerals and gas, Colossus can become your unit as well!
That's where the Colossi come in. Their good range and splash damage allow Protoss to fight effectively in the mid-late game. However, the Colossi are still very vulnerable to air-to-air units, Roach and Stim sprints, and other things well known by now.
Fact of the matter is a Protoss without Tier 3 is a dead Protoss. They need Colossi and/or HT in most situations.
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^ I know you play Protoss, but believe me when I say Zerg's t2, save for the infestor, are all useless in ZvP. There are no situations to ever make hydras (except to do a 2 base all-in), it takes 4-5 Corruptors per colossi (which is most expensive than the colossi itself, and on top aren't effective especially without being able to be BL until 4 minutes), and mutas are just a coinflip against a Protoss who doesn't make enough stalkers or phoenix.
Or, in other words, the larger Protoss' army gets, the worse things get for Zerg.
Anyways, discussing the game is tiers is kind of ridiculous. Maybe you can do that for T/PvT/P, but Zerg is entirely different. Zerg is extremely supply inefficient and given the 'throwaway' nature of Zerg, we have to remake our armies multiple times and trade armies for much less in value many times in a game, preventing Zerg from teching up as fast as the other races. Furthermore, our 'tier 3' is actually much longer in tech and cost to get to.
And then, on top of that, is larva inject. Now I'm not saying larva inject is bad, quite the opposite, but you would be foolish to think that BAM as soon as Greater Spire is done, we have 150 gas x 8 for 8 broodlords. Due to the high cost of Hive tech units, Zerg t3 generally has to come out more similar to Protoss or Terran units, one by one out of a production facility - in other words, Zerg's greatest macro advantage isn't as useful.
Now, when it's extreme late game with 6+ bases, yea, we can do the whole 10 ultras at once. But the idea that "Protoss needs t3" or saying "Zerg needs to make Broodlords against colossi" is ridiculous, as there is just no opportunity for Zerg to do that. Protoss would get their 'tier 3' much slower if you had to lose your entire army multiple times in the game to prevent the opponent from killing you, and if it took significantly longer to tech to
Starting from Lair, it takes 4 minutes to get Broodlords, assuming you made Corruptors in between, and you somehow had 150x8=1.2k gas stockpiled up. 1.2k gas, unlike minerals, takes time to stock up, and you never see pro Zergs ever stockpile that much gas... ever, in a game, because it's always needed to make their 'tier 2' units to stave off Protoss before they can get their 'tier 3' up.
tldr: If Protoss needs tier 3 to stay alive, then Zerg needs tier 5.
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On September 17 2011 11:40 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 10:45 Falcor wrote:On September 17 2011 10:34 AIRwar wrote:On September 17 2011 10:30 Xequecal wrote:
Guys, the idea behind range 7 is to make NPing colossi basically impossible, while still allowing thors to be NPed, That was the big problem with the massive change, thor/hellion was ridiculous.
Protoss need their colossi to function because they don't have a super-strong base unit like the marine or roach. Roaches utterly annihilate any combination of Protoss ground units that doesn't include colossus. This. Everyone listen to this person because he's smarter than most of you. except why should protoss in every situation just make colli? Why are colli better at killing roaches when immortal was built to kill roach/tanks/thor?? Protoss gateway units are pitiful. They are weak because of the Warpgate mechanic. I know I'm stating news from Feb. 2010, but Protoss needs something on the field to compensate. As army supplies grow, Protoss has more of those weaker gateway units, while the enemy's Tier 1-2, which is better, continues to bolster the enemy's army's power at a faster pace. Basically, the larger the armies grow, the worse off Protoss is. The issue with Immortals is you won't have enough. It's not like you're going to have 12 Immortals on the field. I'm the type who gets double robo once on a 3rd base, and I never have that many Immortals, and I love immortals. While robust, Immortals can easily be extinguished and they don't do splash damage... when most of the army is Tier 1 that is bad compared to the enemy's counterpart. Not having splash damage to compensate for a weaker army (nevermind to counteract Zerg splash damage from FG) is suicidal. The Protoss chose something different, they chose the impossible, they chose.... RAPTURE! uhh I mean COLOSSI! A unit where the Stalker would not fear the Hydra, where the army would not be bound by petty Fungal Growth, where the mighty Protoss would not be constrained by the Zerg. And with your minerals and gas, Colossus can become your unit as well! That's where the Colossi come in. Their good range and splash damage allow Protoss to fight effectively in the mid-late game. However, the Colossi are still very vulnerable to air-to-air units, Roach and Stim sprints, and other things well known by now. Fact of the matter is a Protoss without Tier 3 is a dead Protoss. They need Colossi and/or HT in most situations.
Some things:
The Stalker doesn't fear the Hydra. When will Protoss Players finally get that Stalkers beat the crap out of hydras, as long as you blink them. Additionally Stalkers are way more mobile.
Yeah we get it, noone will ever build an OK unit like an immortal, when there is a "if I get 3 of this and he doesn't react perfectly I've won"-button right next to it.
Upgraded Gateway Strategies are AWESOME...
If you want to see HOW weak Gateway Units are, go to Unit test map and let them rape some other army compositions...
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Destiny has pretty much summed it up about Infestors.
Zerg finally got a single cost effective unit that they can make.
Not a unit thats actual correct usage = suiciding it so you can make another one in its place, which is kinda like hitting him with 2 armies... like EVERY OTHER zerg unit. (except the broodlord... which you can get to by the end of the game.
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On September 17 2011 16:07 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 11:40 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On September 17 2011 10:45 Falcor wrote:On September 17 2011 10:34 AIRwar wrote:On September 17 2011 10:30 Xequecal wrote:
Guys, the idea behind range 7 is to make NPing colossi basically impossible, while still allowing thors to be NPed, That was the big problem with the massive change, thor/hellion was ridiculous.
Protoss need their colossi to function because they don't have a super-strong base unit like the marine or roach. Roaches utterly annihilate any combination of Protoss ground units that doesn't include colossus. This. Everyone listen to this person because he's smarter than most of you. except why should protoss in every situation just make colli? Why are colli better at killing roaches when immortal was built to kill roach/tanks/thor?? Protoss gateway units are pitiful. They are weak because of the Warpgate mechanic. I know I'm stating news from Feb. 2010, but Protoss needs something on the field to compensate. As army supplies grow, Protoss has more of those weaker gateway units, while the enemy's Tier 1-2, which is better, continues to bolster the enemy's army's power at a faster pace. Basically, the larger the armies grow, the worse off Protoss is. The issue with Immortals is you won't have enough. It's not like you're going to have 12 Immortals on the field. I'm the type who gets double robo once on a 3rd base, and I never have that many Immortals, and I love immortals. While robust, Immortals can easily be extinguished and they don't do splash damage... when most of the army is Tier 1 that is bad compared to the enemy's counterpart. Not having splash damage to compensate for a weaker army (nevermind to counteract Zerg splash damage from FG) is suicidal. The Protoss chose something different, they chose the impossible, they chose.... RAPTURE! uhh I mean COLOSSI! A unit where the Stalker would not fear the Hydra, where the army would not be bound by petty Fungal Growth, where the mighty Protoss would not be constrained by the Zerg. And with your minerals and gas, Colossus can become your unit as well! That's where the Colossi come in. Their good range and splash damage allow Protoss to fight effectively in the mid-late game. However, the Colossi are still very vulnerable to air-to-air units, Roach and Stim sprints, and other things well known by now. Fact of the matter is a Protoss without Tier 3 is a dead Protoss. They need Colossi and/or HT in most situations. Some things: The Stalker doesn't fear the Hydra. When will Protoss Players finally get that Stalkers beat the crap out of hydras, as long as you blink them. Additionally Stalkers are way more mobile. Yeah we get it, noone will ever build an OK unit like an immortal, when there is a "if I get 3 of this and he doesn't react perfectly I've won"-button right next to it. Upgraded Gateway Strategies are AWESOME... If you want to see HOW weak Gateway Units are, go to Unit test map and let them rape some other army compositions...
Uhmm...Protoss players do go to the Unit Test to try it out. With equal upgrades, gateway units are weak. The math works out too. There is no reason why upgrades favor Protoss more than any other race. Protoss units are weaker because of the gateway mechanic and forcefields. Their weakness is balanced on the fact that Protoss army would not be fighing the entire enemy army due to forcefields. Again, you can try it out on the unit tester with an open field. WIth just gateway units and 1 round of forcefields, you barely break even.
The reason why you think that stalkers beat hydra is that the blink stalker +1 timing attack hits when the hydra count is still low. But if you have spent equal amount of resources with a high supply count, hydras beat stalker easily. Which is obviously why, collosi are needed. Try going pure stalkers vs hyrdra/ling or hydra/roach. It's pathetic.
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On September 17 2011 11:25 boon2537 wrote:
I just realized that blueflame nerf might make lings more viable against mech, compensating the infestor nerf. I still don't get the barrack build time nerf...most zerg adapts to 2 rax pretty well already. So, it's suppose to make 11/12 rax weaker on close position?
nope, blue flame hellions still 2 shot lings like before it doesn't affect that at all.
even with the 5 second rax nerf on shattered if you face a 2 rax close positions and he knows how to execute it you lose still. But it makes it not as strong in other positions unless they decide to proxy rax right by your base and they get a lucky guess or are playing on a 2 player map.
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Any news on the baneling drop situation? Will it make it through and go live?
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On September 17 2011 17:01 kheldorin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 16:07 Big J wrote:On September 17 2011 11:40 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On September 17 2011 10:45 Falcor wrote:On September 17 2011 10:34 AIRwar wrote:On September 17 2011 10:30 Xequecal wrote:
Guys, the idea behind range 7 is to make NPing colossi basically impossible, while still allowing thors to be NPed, That was the big problem with the massive change, thor/hellion was ridiculous.
Protoss need their colossi to function because they don't have a super-strong base unit like the marine or roach. Roaches utterly annihilate any combination of Protoss ground units that doesn't include colossus. This. Everyone listen to this person because he's smarter than most of you. except why should protoss in every situation just make colli? Why are colli better at killing roaches when immortal was built to kill roach/tanks/thor?? Protoss gateway units are pitiful. They are weak because of the Warpgate mechanic. I know I'm stating news from Feb. 2010, but Protoss needs something on the field to compensate. As army supplies grow, Protoss has more of those weaker gateway units, while the enemy's Tier 1-2, which is better, continues to bolster the enemy's army's power at a faster pace. Basically, the larger the armies grow, the worse off Protoss is. The issue with Immortals is you won't have enough. It's not like you're going to have 12 Immortals on the field. I'm the type who gets double robo once on a 3rd base, and I never have that many Immortals, and I love immortals. While robust, Immortals can easily be extinguished and they don't do splash damage... when most of the army is Tier 1 that is bad compared to the enemy's counterpart. Not having splash damage to compensate for a weaker army (nevermind to counteract Zerg splash damage from FG) is suicidal. The Protoss chose something different, they chose the impossible, they chose.... RAPTURE! uhh I mean COLOSSI! A unit where the Stalker would not fear the Hydra, where the army would not be bound by petty Fungal Growth, where the mighty Protoss would not be constrained by the Zerg. And with your minerals and gas, Colossus can become your unit as well! That's where the Colossi come in. Their good range and splash damage allow Protoss to fight effectively in the mid-late game. However, the Colossi are still very vulnerable to air-to-air units, Roach and Stim sprints, and other things well known by now. Fact of the matter is a Protoss without Tier 3 is a dead Protoss. They need Colossi and/or HT in most situations. Some things: The Stalker doesn't fear the Hydra. When will Protoss Players finally get that Stalkers beat the crap out of hydras, as long as you blink them. Additionally Stalkers are way more mobile. Yeah we get it, noone will ever build an OK unit like an immortal, when there is a "if I get 3 of this and he doesn't react perfectly I've won"-button right next to it. Upgraded Gateway Strategies are AWESOME... If you want to see HOW weak Gateway Units are, go to Unit test map and let them rape some other army compositions... Uhmm...Protoss players do go to the Unit Test to try it out. With equal upgrades, gateway units are weak. The math works out too. There is no reason why upgrades favor Protoss more than any other race. Protoss units are weaker because of the gateway mechanic and forcefields. Their weakness is balanced on the fact that Protoss army would not be fighing the entire enemy army due to forcefields. Again, you can try it out on the unit tester with an open field. WIth just gateway units and 1 round of forcefields, you barely break even. The reason why you think that stalkers beat hydra is that the blink stalker +1 timing attack hits when the hydra count is still low. But if you have spent equal amount of resources with a high supply count, hydras beat stalker easily. Which is obviously why, collosi are needed. Try going pure stalkers vs hyrdra/ling or hydra/roach. It's pathetic.
do:
9 blinkstalkers = 1125/450 + 150/150
10 rangehydralisks = 1000/500 + 150/150
and blink single or small groups of stalkers...
And you can do this with bigger or smaller amounts as well, the result is always the same: Stalkers win.
In bigger ratios you can also add in 1-2 sentries just for the guardian shield...
Not that I think, that gateway units rip everything zerg has, but of all the zerg units, the hydralisk is one of the worse anti gateway units... Hydra/ling works because of the zergling... THAT is a gateway killer! (once you get around the forcefields)
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On September 17 2011 17:04 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 11:25 boon2537 wrote:
I just realized that blueflame nerf might make lings more viable against mech, compensating the infestor nerf. I still don't get the barrack build time nerf...most zerg adapts to 2 rax pretty well already. So, it's suppose to make 11/12 rax weaker on close position? nope, blue flame hellions still 2 shot workers like before it doesn't affect that at all.
No they don't.
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hydras smash stalkers, blink or no blink. you're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. but yea it is kinda sad that besides in all in situations, hydras are never used.
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On September 17 2011 17:39 da_head wrote:
hydras smash stalkers, blink or no blink. you're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. but yea it is kinda sad that besides in all in situations, hydras are never used.
No that's not true.
They smash stalkers without Blink, but in a direct engagement with Hydras vs Stalkers, Stalkers win.
Especially off creep.
Hydras are in need of blocking units, if they can survive and dish out their damage they murder Gateway units.
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Italy12246 Posts
On September 17 2011 17:41 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 17:39 da_head wrote:
hydras smash stalkers, blink or no blink. you're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. but yea it is kinda sad that besides in all in situations, hydras are never used. No that's not true. They smash stalkers without Blink, but in a direct engagement with Hydras vs Stalkers, Stalkers win. Especially off creep. Hydras are in need of blocking units, if they can survive and dish out their damage they murder Gateway units.
But then again, pure hydras is a terrible composition. Roach/hydra and Hydra/Ling both smash pure blink stalkes...you need something to protect the squishy hydras.
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On September 17 2011 17:23 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 17:01 kheldorin wrote:On September 17 2011 16:07 Big J wrote:On September 17 2011 11:40 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On September 17 2011 10:45 Falcor wrote:On September 17 2011 10:34 AIRwar wrote:On September 17 2011 10:30 Xequecal wrote:
Guys, the idea behind range 7 is to make NPing colossi basically impossible, while still allowing thors to be NPed, That was the big problem with the massive change, thor/hellion was ridiculous.
Protoss need their colossi to function because they don't have a super-strong base unit like the marine or roach. Roaches utterly annihilate any combination of Protoss ground units that doesn't include colossus. This. Everyone listen to this person because he's smarter than most of you. except why should protoss in every situation just make colli? Why are colli better at killing roaches when immortal was built to kill roach/tanks/thor?? Protoss gateway units are pitiful. They are weak because of the Warpgate mechanic. I know I'm stating news from Feb. 2010, but Protoss needs something on the field to compensate. As army supplies grow, Protoss has more of those weaker gateway units, while the enemy's Tier 1-2, which is better, continues to bolster the enemy's army's power at a faster pace. Basically, the larger the armies grow, the worse off Protoss is. The issue with Immortals is you won't have enough. It's not like you're going to have 12 Immortals on the field. I'm the type who gets double robo once on a 3rd base, and I never have that many Immortals, and I love immortals. While robust, Immortals can easily be extinguished and they don't do splash damage... when most of the army is Tier 1 that is bad compared to the enemy's counterpart. Not having splash damage to compensate for a weaker army (nevermind to counteract Zerg splash damage from FG) is suicidal. The Protoss chose something different, they chose the impossible, they chose.... RAPTURE! uhh I mean COLOSSI! A unit where the Stalker would not fear the Hydra, where the army would not be bound by petty Fungal Growth, where the mighty Protoss would not be constrained by the Zerg. And with your minerals and gas, Colossus can become your unit as well! That's where the Colossi come in. Their good range and splash damage allow Protoss to fight effectively in the mid-late game. However, the Colossi are still very vulnerable to air-to-air units, Roach and Stim sprints, and other things well known by now. Fact of the matter is a Protoss without Tier 3 is a dead Protoss. They need Colossi and/or HT in most situations. Some things: The Stalker doesn't fear the Hydra. When will Protoss Players finally get that Stalkers beat the crap out of hydras, as long as you blink them. Additionally Stalkers are way more mobile. Yeah we get it, noone will ever build an OK unit like an immortal, when there is a "if I get 3 of this and he doesn't react perfectly I've won"-button right next to it. Upgraded Gateway Strategies are AWESOME... If you want to see HOW weak Gateway Units are, go to Unit test map and let them rape some other army compositions... Uhmm...Protoss players do go to the Unit Test to try it out. With equal upgrades, gateway units are weak. The math works out too. There is no reason why upgrades favor Protoss more than any other race. Protoss units are weaker because of the gateway mechanic and forcefields. Their weakness is balanced on the fact that Protoss army would not be fighing the entire enemy army due to forcefields. Again, you can try it out on the unit tester with an open field. WIth just gateway units and 1 round of forcefields, you barely break even. The reason why you think that stalkers beat hydra is that the blink stalker +1 timing attack hits when the hydra count is still low. But if you have spent equal amount of resources with a high supply count, hydras beat stalker easily. Which is obviously why, collosi are needed. Try going pure stalkers vs hyrdra/ling or hydra/roach. It's pathetic. do: 9 blinkstalkers = 1125/450 + 150/150 10 rangehydralisks = 1000/500 + 150/150 and blink single or small groups of stalkers... And you can do this with bigger or smaller amounts as well, the result is always the same: Stalkers win. In bigger ratios you can also add in 1-2 sentries just for the guardian shield... Not that I think, that gateway units rip everything zerg has, but of all the zerg units, the hydralisk is one of the worse anti gateway units... Hydra/ling works because of the zergling... THAT is a gateway killer! (once you get around the forcefields)
Compare stalker versus marauder in a unit tester. Fortunately in real games it doesn't come down to pure stalker versus pure marauder, you add in chargelots, hts, etc. Zerglings are the equivalent of zealots in that they tank and deal decent DPS if they come into melee range. It's also easier for zerg to get 1000/500 than 1125/450 so the comparison is pointless because the protoss minerals and gas are more "precious" because you get less.
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On September 17 2011 17:39 da_head wrote:
hydras smash stalkers, blink or no blink. you're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. but yea it is kinda sad that besides in all in situations, hydras are never used.
Depends on the numbers.
Blink Stalker in large numbers can take on Hydra at a cost efficiency. I think Hydra are just balanced around the fact that Zerg will have a much better eco than Protoss, because they aren't the most efficient of units. Regular stalkers on the other hand get their ass handed to them on a silver platter. Speed/Cracklings however demolish Stalkers--blink or no blink, you can't deal with those Zergling tsunami's without some sort of AOE, be it Storm or Colossus
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I think the change is good for zvp. but I am thinking about zvt, how can zerg win the late game against ghost/tank. There is no way to use NP after the patch on there ghost because emp/snipe have way longer range :/ And then we dont even talk about the tanks. With the range nerf its will kill the late game of zvt.
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Long time reader, first time poster. ( So stupid but I always wanted to write this :D)
I am a zerg who just got into playing again I have though been watching alot of starcraft 2 though. So my opinion is more or less worthless. But I did see one thing here that makes me feel a little concerned. NP is at a range of 7 while feedback is at a range of 10. Now I am just a Diamon/plat scrub. But, Doesn't this mean that the protoss can keep his templar behind his colossus and still feedback the infestors, before NP goes off ? We are talking about a difference in 3 range which is a big deal imo.
I don't know, it might not be a big deal, maybe someone here who is way better then me can think about this for a few minutes.
I do see that the range is also a problem without taking into account ghosts and templars, but then it comes down to straight micro and positioning. Which will be harder for zerg, but then again we are talking about Mc'ing one of their units it should be hard. But the templar thing seems to be a big problem.
Sorry about this being a bit chaotic hopefully someone can read through my mess and come up with something.
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On September 17 2011 17:51 Pixel. wrote:
I think the change is good for zvp. but I am thinking about zvt, how can zerg win the late game against ghost/tank. There is no way to use NP after the patch on there ghost because emp/snipe have way longer range :/ And then we dont even talk about the tanks. With the range nerf its will kill the late game of zvt.
I don't understand, zergs were whining originally because NP couldn't be used on massive, and apparently the only units worth NPing were massive, and NPing immortals, seige tanks, ghosts and HT wasn't worth it. Now that the original change was reverted and NP range was reduced from 9 to 7, zergs are suddenly saying that now they can't EMP tanks and ghosts because the range is too short, so now zerg is gonna be horribly helpless in the late game. Weren't these units not worth NPing in the first place? Why is it suddenly such a problem that you can't NP ghosts all of a sudden?
Sounds like people just like whining for the sake of whining...
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EPT
