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You said Valve/Icefrog are living off their work. I'm saying Euls, Guinsoo have done little to nothing for DotA in comparison to Icefrog. Read the quote, I said "if anything", that means I don't actually think that's the case, but think that case is more likely than what the other person said. I never said Valve/Icefrog are living off of their work. I argued LoL/HoN are not living off of Icefrogs work.
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Then we are in an agreement . The 'if anything' statement put me off because it's just so wrong.
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On August 18 2011 22:33 Zephirdd wrote: DotA2 is different from HoN in that
- HoN has toooo many stupid changes ie. giving blink/leap-esque ability to every hero, or creating stupid concepts - Porting heroes totally differently from DotA(wtf, "The Admiral" became a Gladiator? REALLY?) - Too flashy graphics(although I could say it can be changed in your Options)
Also, personal dislikes about HoN: - Small letters and icons - what is the point of an icon if you need bottle-glasses to see it? How the hell am I supposed to read all the words when I'm at a "safe distance" from the screen? - herpderp microtransactions, but I guess it is a consequence of the f2p model. Still, having only 15+x heroes available at a time sucks. - "Double Tap"? "Hat Trick"? QUAD KILL? Annihilation kinda saves itself but it is still bad. Bloodlust makes no sense. etc - Annoying alternate announcers, and lack of UT announcer by itself(which is so awesome).
And that is why, IMO, DotA2>HoN. And I didn't even took matchmaking or other stuff into consideration(also, Steam rulez), because I haven't had the chance to try it out.
This message confirms what I thought. Most DotA players who don't enjoy HoN don't like it simply because they can't (or don't want to put the effort to) appreciate any change, not because of the gameplay.
I can understand that, but at least admit it's just a matter of personal preference. The game in itself is of really good quality, the balance is not nearly as bad as anyone pretends it is (even DotA has it's own issues). The new heroes are for the most part well thought and original, sometimes better than classic DotA heroes (erm erm.... skeleton king).
If you're used to play Lion for 10 years, a ''Witch Slayer'' might look silly even if the spells are 1:1. But when you think about it, a generic caster shooting spikes from the ground with a generic red death ray is the worse concept of the two.
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What I expect from DotA2 is pretty simple: being DotA1 with better graphics. There's no reason to fix what isn't broken and I don't expect Icefrog to mess this up.
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On August 19 2011 00:20 lepape wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 22:33 Zephirdd wrote: DotA2 is different from HoN in that
- HoN has toooo many stupid changes ie. giving blink/leap-esque ability to every hero, or creating stupid concepts - Porting heroes totally differently from DotA(wtf, "The Admiral" became a Gladiator? REALLY?) - Too flashy graphics(although I could say it can be changed in your Options)
Also, personal dislikes about HoN: - Small letters and icons - what is the point of an icon if you need bottle-glasses to see it? How the hell am I supposed to read all the words when I'm at a "safe distance" from the screen? - herpderp microtransactions, but I guess it is a consequence of the f2p model. Still, having only 15+x heroes available at a time sucks. - "Double Tap"? "Hat Trick"? QUAD KILL? Annihilation kinda saves itself but it is still bad. Bloodlust makes no sense. etc - Annoying alternate announcers, and lack of UT announcer by itself(which is so awesome).
And that is why, IMO, DotA2>HoN. And I didn't even took matchmaking or other stuff into consideration(also, Steam rulez), because I haven't had the chance to try it out. This message confirms what I thought. Most DotA players who don't enjoy HoN don't like it simply because they can't (or don't want to put the effort to) appreciate any change, not because of the gameplay. I can understand that, but at least admit it's just a matter of personal preference. The game in itself is of really good quality, the balance is not nearly as bad as anyone pretends it is (even DotA has it's own issues). The new heroes are for the most part well thought and original, sometimes better than original DotA heroes (erm erm.... skeleton king). If you're used to play Lion for 10 years, a ''Witch Slayer'' might look silly, even if the spells are 1:1. But when you think about it, a generic caster shooting spikes from the ground with a generic red death ray is the worse concept of the two.
I am more of the camp of not even trying HoN out. There was no reason to, I had DotA and like it. Trying out HoN would be an effort. They did nothing to make me put that effort forward, the screenshots didn't suit me so I skipped the game. Dota 2 has a name that prompts me to at least check it out seriously. Thus far I like what I see.
The difference being that I see/saw no reason to give HoN a chance.
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I expected dota with better ui graphics and infastructure, it looks like im gona be getting that :D
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On August 18 2011 23:30 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:Show nested quote +The game was in a pretty terrible state when Euls, Guinsoo were developing the map. It was terribly imbalanced. It was also nowhere near as popular as it is now until Icefrog started working on the map. Icefrog deserves all the credit for turning DotA into the game it is today. Still, how are they living off of Icefrog's work? What Icefrog did made DotA more popular, not LoL. It doesn't even come close to catering to the same group of people, and the amount of people going from DotA to LoL isn't really big. It's still stupid to say they "live off of his work". League of Legends earned its spot by itself. Period.Now HoN is a different story, and you *could* argue there considering it directly takes a lot of concepts and heroes from DotA. But saying LoL lives off of Icefrog's work is, at best, ridiculous.
They aren't living off it now, but they definitely started off it. If they only built their community from the ground up would I agree they don't owe their success to IceFrog.
Too many people don't remember for some reason how LoL got it's initial popularity. This sums up the story pretty well, the second half is interesting: http://ninjaspartans.blogspot.com/2009/05/league-of-legends-and-dota-controversy.html
Basically LoL started out by hijacking the original DotA Allstars site and drawing attention to their own game. People were promised with a "Dota with reconnect" game and that was enough to get LoL going. If Dota 2 were ready by 2009 then make no mistake, there would be no breathing room for LoL or HoN.
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I love how every dota thread ends up with one of 2 arguments;
1) "The genre is moba/action rts/aos, not dota!"
2) "X made dota!", "No Y made dota!"
I really don't think anyone cares. It's been 6 years and these pointless arguments are still Godwinning every DotA topic on the internet.
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It's not an argument, Icefrog has undoubtedly made DotA what it is today and almost single-handedly transformed it from a fun but imbalanced custom scen on WC3 to a genre of its own which has competitive appeal.
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I expect Million Dollar tournaments every month.
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i expect dota with less leavers, matchmaking, and a higher average skill level because all the good people who play dota in different ways will be in the same place
i don't like hon because there are so many little mechanics and hero changes that basically make it a different game
i don't like lol because it is way too easy and again its mechanics are completely different, I seriously laughed when i learned lol had a hero that literally had no resource at all, just press all your buttons as often as you can
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On August 19 2011 03:24 Fleebenworth wrote: It's not an argument, Icefrog has undoubtedly made DotA what it is today and almost single-handedly transformed it from a fun but imbalanced custom scen on WC3 to a genre of its own which has competitive appeal.
It's a technical detail, but anyone who worked on a DotA-like map has contributed to make it a genre on it's own.
Without HoN, LoL and other such games, it wouldn't be a genre, it would just be one game. But I get your point, if Icefrog didn't work on DotA, the map probably wouldn't even have the appeal or the popularity to be developped by other companies.
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On August 19 2011 04:23 lepape wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 03:24 Fleebenworth wrote: It's not an argument, Icefrog has undoubtedly made DotA what it is today and almost single-handedly transformed it from a fun but imbalanced custom scen on WC3 to a genre of its own which has competitive appeal. It's a technical detail, but anyone who worked on a DotA-like map has contributed to make it a genre on it's own. Without HoN, LoL and other such games, it wouldn't even be a genre. But I get your point, if Icefrog didn't work on DotA, the map probably wouldn't even have the appeal to be developped by other companies.
it kinds of went like, roc dota, then tft dota, then dota allstars, then it was just dota being updated by icefrog all alone for a few years, then suddenly OMG HON OMG LOL OMG DOTA 2 OMG
hon and lol are definitely the new kids on the block when it comes to making contributions to DOTA-like games
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I wouldn't call custom maps on SC/WC3 a genre on it's own, especially when there's so few variations between the maps.
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dota with sparkles
sparkle sparkle
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I haven't played dota in ages but it had very similar traits to HoN. LoL to me is the most balanced and fun to play at of the 2 but i'm definitly loking forward because of valve's legendary game support. HoN feels the same like when i left it, same heroes over powered to hell, it looks amazing but thats all it has really. Dota i haven't played in ages played in ages so im very detachedf rom it. LoL was nice because casters didnt become very useless (CC) late game.
I'll pick dota 2 out of them all probably because of the amazing support i know to expect from valve and icefrog, if though i'll miss some of LoL awesome changes like spell damage.
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Just started playing dota again this summer, I'm expecting alot of good times with my dota friends and the return of some from the darkside (HoN). I hope that my roommates pick it up! Game looks great and its still beta.
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On August 18 2011 22:28 SKC wrote: HoN is very diferent from Dota. Have someone that knows nothing about FPS games play both CS 1.6 and Source and he will tell you it's the same game. Ask any good player about it and he will tell you the diferences are huge.
There are also new items, like spellshards, that make a big diference in the way the game is played.
This is basically it, DotA 2 is much more similar to the original DotA than HoN is. Although people claimed HoN was basically the remake of DotA, this was usually in comparison to LoL. They are significantly different otherwise you'd see people all quit DotA for HoN, which simply didn't happen.
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On August 18 2011 22:33 Zephirdd wrote: DotA2 is different from HoN in that
- HoN has toooo many stupid changes ie. giving blink/leap-esque ability to every hero, or creating stupid concepts - Porting heroes totally differently from DotA(wtf, "The Admiral" became a Gladiator? REALLY?) - Too flashy graphics(although I could say it can be changed in your Options)
Also, personal dislikes about HoN: - Small letters and icons - what is the point of an icon if you need bottle-glasses to see it? How the hell am I supposed to read all the words when I'm at a "safe distance" from the screen? - herpderp microtransactions, but I guess it is a consequence of the f2p model. Still, having only 15+x heroes available at a time sucks. - "Double Tap"? "Hat Trick"? QUAD KILL? Annihilation kinda saves itself but it is still bad. Bloodlust makes no sense. etc - Annoying alternate announcers, and lack of UT announcer by itself(which is so awesome).
And that is why, IMO, DotA2>HoN. And I didn't even took matchmaking or other stuff into consideration(also, Steam rulez), because I haven't had the chance to try it out. Lol
Yes double tap, hat trick, quad kill how dare they not use the voice and words for unreal tournament! I mean clearly all games just need to use unreal tournament for all announcing. And come on jon st john who is that nobody voice,psh
How dare they change to a f2p model i mean i hear no rumors about dota2 adopting such a model
i mean whats up with using font size that people use for reading forums on the Internet no one with a computer could ever read such small text.
Yup and admiral is not the same hero as gladiator i mean their skill set is totally the same, yet visually they are different. Shit how could that be in our world without any legal issues in doing such an endeavor, and i mean come on that gladiator model really ugly and doesn't make sense a whip for splash instead of just a bit sword that makes water sounds, THE MADNESS!
Yup and every hero can blink and leap i mean come on hon, dampeer, dark lady, pred, panda, nrmphora and sil way to many heroes with escape and init mechanics, what happened to the gold old days, of only clockwerk, io, anti mage, morphling, ptom, sa, vengeful spirit, puck, prophet, storm spirit, chaos knight, pitlord, sand king, pa, specter, faceless void, queen of pain, phoenix. COME ON i mean dota had so few units that had such mobility.
now to read the rest of this thread Well what i think dota2 will offer is just steam support although like most games haters will hate companies for arbitrary reasons.
S2 is pushing Hon to have shorter games and revolve more around big plays from teams also to remove some of the old things that pros felt where a problem, like the kong pit being too helleborne friendly and runes at 0:00, ionno what direction ice frog is pushing the meta game to.
Although due to them still playing a very similar set up on a very similar map difference in game play may come down to heroes are there, hon is being pushed to more of a fast pace game away from the 100 min ricer power games, and teams like msi and col are pushing that aggressive style of play,
The problem s2 has is haters, people claim op heroes are made yet usually they aren't being used some so in top teir play, so what may be harsh to noob players is quite manageable at top play. It's alot of irrational random spurts of crap that s2 has to deal with that for some reason people forgot with icefrog. http://www.playdota.com/forums/70601/thisisbobs-ms-paint-tribute/
Problems in these games have always been around and people bitch. I mean most of this thread is joke responses because honestly hon and dota even though heroes have diverged and little things have changed they still draw many similarities and to expect something from dota 2 that we dont expect from hon is a bit hard to say.
Honestly the only thing i would be expecting dota2 to do better is draw in a larger crowd just because it has vavle name slapped on it and the original dota name slapped on it. regardless if the game is more fun to play for the masses or is a better competitive game in balance etc.
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Lol, such a ridiculously biased story that's out to put RIOT in a bad light and icefrog in a good one, you expect me to take that seriously?
Basically LoL started out by hijacking the original DotA Allstars site and drawing attention to their own game. People were promised with a "Dota with reconnect" game and that was enough to get LoL going. If Dota 2 were ready by 2009 then make no mistake, there would be no breathing room for LoL or HoN. Hijacking the site? You mean he took down his own DotA site because he no longer wanted to support the DotA community, and he gave his reason for that. Hardly hijacking.
And please, tell me where LoL promised "DotA with reconnect", because they've never once stated it'd be a complete DotA clone, and it hasn't been. Not even close. They made a beginner-friendly DotA style game that removed a lot of hard parts of DotA.
Sure, DotA's popularity has probably helped boost LoL's popularity, but it's painfully obvious that was far from (read: probably 5-10%) of the people that actually played LoL. Otherwise HoN would've been much, much more succesful. Honestly, the fact that you're even trying to take away from their accomplishments makes you, at best, really childish.
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