• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 10:24
CEST 16:24
KST 23:24
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202537RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams4Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4
StarCraft 2
General
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread RSL Season 1 - Final Week The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
ASL20 Preliminary Maps BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET The Casual Games of the Week Thread
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 774 users

What do people expect from DotA2 - Page 2

Forum Index > Closed
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 Next All
BadgerBadger8264
Profile Joined March 2011
Netherlands409 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-18 14:50:29
August 18 2011 14:46 GMT
#21
You said Valve/Icefrog are living off their work. I'm saying Euls, Guinsoo have done little to nothing for DotA in comparison to Icefrog.

Read the quote, I said "if anything", that means I don't actually think that's the case, but think that case is more likely than what the other person said. I never said Valve/Icefrog are living off of their work. I argued LoL/HoN are not living off of Icefrogs work.
kiddie
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada70 Posts
August 18 2011 14:52 GMT
#22
Then we are in an agreement . The 'if anything' statement put me off because it's just so wrong.
lepape
Profile Joined November 2005
Canada557 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-18 15:31:00
August 18 2011 15:20 GMT
#23
On August 18 2011 22:33 Zephirdd wrote:
DotA2 is different from HoN in that

- HoN has toooo many stupid changes ie. giving blink/leap-esque ability to every hero, or creating stupid concepts
- Porting heroes totally differently from DotA(wtf, "The Admiral" became a Gladiator? REALLY?)
- Too flashy graphics(although I could say it can be changed in your Options)

Also, personal dislikes about HoN:
- Small letters and icons - what is the point of an icon if you need bottle-glasses to see it? How the hell am I supposed to read all the words when I'm at a "safe distance" from the screen?
- herpderp microtransactions, but I guess it is a consequence of the f2p model. Still, having only 15+x heroes available at a time sucks.
- "Double Tap"? "Hat Trick"? QUAD KILL? Annihilation kinda saves itself but it is still bad. Bloodlust makes no sense. etc
- Annoying alternate announcers, and lack of UT announcer by itself(which is so awesome).


And that is why, IMO, DotA2>HoN. And I didn't even took matchmaking or other stuff into consideration(also, Steam rulez), because I haven't had the chance to try it out.


This message confirms what I thought. Most DotA players who don't enjoy HoN don't like it simply because they can't (or don't want to put the effort to) appreciate any change, not because of the gameplay.

I can understand that, but at least admit it's just a matter of personal preference. The game in itself is of really good quality, the balance is not nearly as bad as anyone pretends it is (even DotA has it's own issues). The new heroes are for the most part well thought and original, sometimes better than classic DotA heroes (erm erm.... skeleton king).

If you're used to play Lion for 10 years, a ''Witch Slayer'' might look silly even if the spells are 1:1. But when you think about it, a generic caster shooting spikes from the ground with a generic red death ray is the worse concept of the two.
RabidSeagull
Profile Joined December 2010
United States220 Posts
August 18 2011 15:24 GMT
#24
What I expect from DotA2 is pretty simple: being DotA1 with better graphics. There's no reason to fix what isn't broken and I don't expect Icefrog to mess this up.
I be the body dropper, the heartbeat stopper. Child educator, plus head amputator
Yurie
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
11822 Posts
August 18 2011 15:32 GMT
#25
On August 19 2011 00:20 lepape wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2011 22:33 Zephirdd wrote:
DotA2 is different from HoN in that

- HoN has toooo many stupid changes ie. giving blink/leap-esque ability to every hero, or creating stupid concepts
- Porting heroes totally differently from DotA(wtf, "The Admiral" became a Gladiator? REALLY?)
- Too flashy graphics(although I could say it can be changed in your Options)

Also, personal dislikes about HoN:
- Small letters and icons - what is the point of an icon if you need bottle-glasses to see it? How the hell am I supposed to read all the words when I'm at a "safe distance" from the screen?
- herpderp microtransactions, but I guess it is a consequence of the f2p model. Still, having only 15+x heroes available at a time sucks.
- "Double Tap"? "Hat Trick"? QUAD KILL? Annihilation kinda saves itself but it is still bad. Bloodlust makes no sense. etc
- Annoying alternate announcers, and lack of UT announcer by itself(which is so awesome).


And that is why, IMO, DotA2>HoN. And I didn't even took matchmaking or other stuff into consideration(also, Steam rulez), because I haven't had the chance to try it out.


This message confirms what I thought. Most DotA players who don't enjoy HoN don't like it simply because they can't (or don't want to put the effort to) appreciate any change, not because of the gameplay.

I can understand that, but at least admit it's just a matter of personal preference. The game in itself is of really good quality, the balance is not nearly as bad as anyone pretends it is (even DotA has it's own issues). The new heroes are for the most part well thought and original, sometimes better than original DotA heroes (erm erm.... skeleton king).

If you're used to play Lion for 10 years, a ''Witch Slayer'' might look silly, even if the spells are 1:1. But when you think about it, a generic caster shooting spikes from the ground with a generic red death ray is the worse concept of the two.


I am more of the camp of not even trying HoN out. There was no reason to, I had DotA and like it. Trying out HoN would be an effort. They did nothing to make me put that effort forward, the screenshots didn't suit me so I skipped the game. Dota 2 has a name that prompts me to at least check it out seriously. Thus far I like what I see.

The difference being that I see/saw no reason to give HoN a chance.
nekuodah
Profile Joined August 2010
England2409 Posts
August 18 2011 15:39 GMT
#26
I expected dota with better ui graphics and infastructure, it looks like im gona be getting that :D
EtherealBlade
Profile Joined August 2010
660 Posts
August 18 2011 15:55 GMT
#27
On August 18 2011 23:30 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:
Show nested quote +
The game was in a pretty terrible state when Euls, Guinsoo were developing the map. It was terribly imbalanced. It was also nowhere near as popular as it is now until Icefrog started working on the map. Icefrog deserves all the credit for turning DotA into the game it is today.

Still, how are they living off of Icefrog's work? What Icefrog did made DotA more popular, not LoL. It doesn't even come close to catering to the same group of people, and the amount of people going from DotA to LoL isn't really big. It's still stupid to say they "live off of his work". League of Legends earned its spot by itself. Period.

Now HoN is a different story, and you *could* argue there considering it directly takes a lot of concepts and heroes from DotA. But saying LoL lives off of Icefrog's work is, at best, ridiculous.


They aren't living off it now, but they definitely started off it. If they only built their community from the ground up would I agree they don't owe their success to IceFrog.

Too many people don't remember for some reason how LoL got it's initial popularity.
This sums up the story pretty well, the second half is interesting:
http://ninjaspartans.blogspot.com/2009/05/league-of-legends-and-dota-controversy.html

Basically LoL started out by hijacking the original DotA Allstars site and drawing attention to their own game. People were promised with a "Dota with reconnect" game and that was enough to get LoL going. If Dota 2 were ready by 2009 then make no mistake, there would be no breathing room for LoL or HoN.
Eiviyn
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom169 Posts
August 18 2011 16:33 GMT
#28
I love how every dota thread ends up with one of 2 arguments;

1) "The genre is moba/action rts/aos, not dota!"

2) "X made dota!", "No Y made dota!"

I really don't think anyone cares. It's been 6 years and these pointless arguments are still Godwinning every DotA topic on the internet.
Fleebenworth
Profile Joined April 2011
463 Posts
August 18 2011 18:24 GMT
#29
It's not an argument, Icefrog has undoubtedly made DotA what it is today and almost single-handedly transformed it from a fun but imbalanced custom scen on WC3 to a genre of its own which has competitive appeal.
Ashworth
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom185 Posts
August 18 2011 18:25 GMT
#30
I expect Million Dollar tournaments every month.
BeanerBurrito
Profile Joined December 2010
1010 Posts
August 18 2011 18:42 GMT
#31
i expect dota with less leavers, matchmaking, and a higher average skill level because all the good people who play dota in different ways will be in the same place

i don't like hon because there are so many little mechanics and hero changes that basically make it a different game

i don't like lol because it is way too easy and again its mechanics are completely different, I seriously laughed when i learned lol had a hero that literally had no resource at all, just press all your buttons as often as you can
What they say: "I'm gonna play support!" What they mean: "I'm gonna feed all game!"
lepape
Profile Joined November 2005
Canada557 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-18 19:26:31
August 18 2011 19:23 GMT
#32
On August 19 2011 03:24 Fleebenworth wrote:
It's not an argument, Icefrog has undoubtedly made DotA what it is today and almost single-handedly transformed it from a fun but imbalanced custom scen on WC3 to a genre of its own which has competitive appeal.


It's a technical detail, but anyone who worked on a DotA-like map has contributed to make it a genre on it's own.

Without HoN, LoL and other such games, it wouldn't be a genre, it would just be one game. But I get your point, if Icefrog didn't work on DotA, the map probably wouldn't even have the appeal or the popularity to be developped by other companies.
BeanerBurrito
Profile Joined December 2010
1010 Posts
August 18 2011 19:29 GMT
#33
On August 19 2011 04:23 lepape wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2011 03:24 Fleebenworth wrote:
It's not an argument, Icefrog has undoubtedly made DotA what it is today and almost single-handedly transformed it from a fun but imbalanced custom scen on WC3 to a genre of its own which has competitive appeal.


It's a technical detail, but anyone who worked on a DotA-like map has contributed to make it a genre on it's own.

Without HoN, LoL and other such games, it wouldn't even be a genre. But I get your point, if Icefrog didn't work on DotA, the map probably wouldn't even have the appeal to be developped by other companies.


it kinds of went like, roc dota, then tft dota, then dota allstars, then it was just dota being updated by icefrog all alone for a few years, then suddenly OMG HON OMG LOL OMG DOTA 2 OMG

hon and lol are definitely the new kids on the block when it comes to making contributions to DOTA-like games
What they say: "I'm gonna play support!" What they mean: "I'm gonna feed all game!"
lepape
Profile Joined November 2005
Canada557 Posts
August 18 2011 19:43 GMT
#34
I wouldn't call custom maps on SC/WC3 a genre on it's own, especially when there's so few variations between the maps.
King[Neikos]
Profile Joined September 2010
Costa Rica506 Posts
August 18 2011 19:44 GMT
#35
dota with sparkles


sparkle sparkle
Wasteweiser
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada522 Posts
August 18 2011 19:50 GMT
#36
I haven't played dota in ages but it had very similar traits to HoN. LoL to me is the most balanced and fun to play at of the 2 but i'm definitly loking forward because of valve's legendary game support. HoN feels the same like when i left it, same heroes over powered to hell, it looks amazing but thats all it has really. Dota i haven't played in ages played in ages so im very detachedf rom it. LoL was nice because casters didnt become very useless (CC) late game.

I'll pick dota 2 out of them all probably because of the amazing support i know to expect from valve and icefrog, if though i'll miss some of LoL awesome changes like spell damage.
Obitus.243
Cocacooh
Profile Joined August 2010
Norway1510 Posts
August 18 2011 20:01 GMT
#37
Just started playing dota again this summer, I'm expecting alot of good times with my dota friends and the return of some from the darkside (HoN). I hope that my roommates pick it up! Game looks great and its still beta.
Xaerkar
Profile Joined January 2011
United States230 Posts
August 18 2011 20:04 GMT
#38
On August 18 2011 22:28 SKC wrote:
HoN is very diferent from Dota. Have someone that knows nothing about FPS games play both CS 1.6 and Source and he will tell you it's the same game. Ask any good player about it and he will tell you the diferences are huge.

There are also new items, like spellshards, that make a big diference in the way the game is played.


This is basically it, DotA 2 is much more similar to the original DotA than HoN is. Although people claimed HoN was basically the remake of DotA, this was usually in comparison to LoL. They are significantly different otherwise you'd see people all quit DotA for HoN, which simply didn't happen.
semantics
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
10040 Posts
August 18 2011 20:14 GMT
#39
On August 18 2011 22:33 Zephirdd wrote:
DotA2 is different from HoN in that

- HoN has toooo many stupid changes ie. giving blink/leap-esque ability to every hero, or creating stupid concepts
- Porting heroes totally differently from DotA(wtf, "The Admiral" became a Gladiator? REALLY?)
- Too flashy graphics(although I could say it can be changed in your Options)

Also, personal dislikes about HoN:
- Small letters and icons - what is the point of an icon if you need bottle-glasses to see it? How the hell am I supposed to read all the words when I'm at a "safe distance" from the screen?
- herpderp microtransactions, but I guess it is a consequence of the f2p model. Still, having only 15+x heroes available at a time sucks.
- "Double Tap"? "Hat Trick"? QUAD KILL? Annihilation kinda saves itself but it is still bad. Bloodlust makes no sense. etc
- Annoying alternate announcers, and lack of UT announcer by itself(which is so awesome).


And that is why, IMO, DotA2>HoN. And I didn't even took matchmaking or other stuff into consideration(also, Steam rulez), because I haven't had the chance to try it out.

Lol

Yes double tap, hat trick, quad kill how dare they not use the voice and words for unreal tournament! I mean clearly all games just need to use unreal tournament for all announcing. And come on jon st john who is that nobody voice,psh

How dare they change to a f2p model i mean i hear no rumors about dota2 adopting such a model

i mean whats up with using font size that people use for reading forums on the Internet no one with a computer could ever read such small text.

Yup and admiral is not the same hero as gladiator i mean their skill set is totally the same, yet visually they are different. Shit how could that be in our world without any legal issues in doing such an endeavor, and i mean come on that gladiator model really ugly and doesn't make sense a whip for splash instead of just a bit sword that makes water sounds, THE MADNESS!

Yup and every hero can blink and leap i mean come on hon, dampeer, dark lady, pred, panda, nrmphora and sil way to many heroes with escape and init mechanics, what happened to the gold old days, of only clockwerk, io, anti mage, morphling, ptom, sa, vengeful spirit, puck, prophet, storm spirit, chaos knight, pitlord, sand king, pa, specter, faceless void, queen of pain, phoenix. COME ON i mean dota had so few units that had such mobility.


now to read the rest of this thread
Well what i think dota2 will offer is just steam support although like most games haters will hate companies for arbitrary reasons.

S2 is pushing Hon to have shorter games and revolve more around big plays from teams also to remove some of the old things that pros felt where a problem, like the kong pit being too helleborne friendly and runes at 0:00, ionno what direction ice frog is pushing the meta game to.

Although due to them still playing a very similar set up on a very similar map difference in game play may come down to heroes are there, hon is being pushed to more of a fast pace game away from the 100 min ricer power games, and teams like msi and col are pushing that aggressive style of play,

The problem s2 has is haters, people claim op heroes are made yet usually they aren't being used some so in top teir play, so what may be harsh to noob players is quite manageable at top play. It's alot of irrational random spurts of crap that s2 has to deal with that for some reason people forgot with icefrog.
http://www.playdota.com/forums/70601/thisisbobs-ms-paint-tribute/

Problems in these games have always been around and people bitch. I mean most of this thread is joke responses because honestly hon and dota even though heroes have diverged and little things have changed they still draw many similarities and to expect something from dota 2 that we dont expect from hon is a bit hard to say.

Honestly the only thing i would be expecting dota2 to do better is draw in a larger crowd just because it has vavle name slapped on it and the original dota name slapped on it. regardless if the game is more fun to play for the masses or is a better competitive game in balance etc.
BadgerBadger8264
Profile Joined March 2011
Netherlands409 Posts
August 18 2011 21:16 GMT
#40
Too many people don't remember for some reason how LoL got it's initial popularity.
This sums up the story pretty well, the second half is interesting:
http://ninjaspartans.blogspot.com/2009/05/league-of-legends-and-dota-controversy.html

Lol, such a ridiculously biased story that's out to put RIOT in a bad light and icefrog in a good one, you expect me to take that seriously?

Basically LoL started out by hijacking the original DotA Allstars site and drawing attention to their own game. People were promised with a "Dota with reconnect" game and that was enough to get LoL going. If Dota 2 were ready by 2009 then make no mistake, there would be no breathing room for LoL or HoN.

Hijacking the site? You mean he took down his own DotA site because he no longer wanted to support the DotA community, and he gave his reason for that. Hardly hijacking.

And please, tell me where LoL promised "DotA with reconnect", because they've never once stated it'd be a complete DotA clone, and it hasn't been. Not even close. They made a beginner-friendly DotA style game that removed a lot of hard parts of DotA.

Sure, DotA's popularity has probably helped boost LoL's popularity, but it's painfully obvious that was far from (read: probably 5-10%) of the people that actually played LoL. Otherwise HoN would've been much, much more succesful. Honestly, the fact that you're even trying to take away from their accomplishments makes you, at best, really childish.
Prev 1 2 3 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Esports World Cup
10:00
2025 - Day 2
Reynor vs MaruLIVE!
herO vs Cure
Serral vs Classic
EWC_Arena10783
ComeBackTV 2461
TaKeTV 584
Hui .545
3DClanTV 366
Rex230
EnkiAlexander 224
mcanning160
CranKy Ducklings153
Reynor151
UpATreeSC124
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
EWC_Arena10783
Hui .545
Rex 230
mcanning 160
Reynor 151
UpATreeSC 121
StarCraft: Brood War
Bisu 3895
Barracks 1958
Flash 1816
BeSt 1504
Jaedong 1498
EffOrt 1082
Mini 570
Stork 505
ggaemo 400
Snow 334
[ Show more ]
Soma 274
GuemChi 263
ZerO 252
Soulkey 251
ToSsGirL 225
Rush 120
Hyun 115
Dewaltoss 65
TY 57
soO 52
Sea.KH 47
Sacsri 37
scan(afreeca) 26
Terrorterran 12
Movie 11
ivOry 11
Bale 9
Britney 0
Dota 2
420jenkins328
syndereN302
XcaliburYe270
Counter-Strike
sgares520
edward79
flusha0
Super Smash Bros
Westballz27
Other Games
singsing2053
hiko1318
B2W.Neo987
crisheroes434
Fuzer 179
ArmadaUGS70
KnowMe52
QueenE44
ZerO(Twitch)16
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 3
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH291
• Adnapsc2 1
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• Migwel
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 722
• WagamamaTV536
League of Legends
• Nemesis3729
• TFBlade719
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
19h 36m
TBD vs Zoun
TBD vs SHIN
TBD vs ShoWTimE
TBD vs Rogue
Esports World Cup
1d 20h
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
CSO Cup
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
[ Show More ]
Online Event
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.