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if anyone is legitimately interested in dialogue regarding religion, and christianity in particular - I'd suggest some honest research on both sides. quite a few of you might be surprised by the resurgence of Christianity in academic philosophy circles, especially with the approach of reformed epistemology. just a plug-in to return to the heart of the new atheist movement (and avoid militant atheism) - skepticism and pursuit of truth.
a organization called "Reasonable Faith" is run by a philosopher/theologian who does legitimate debates between upper echelon atheist scholars, e.g. quentin smith (none of that richard dawkins, christopher harris, stuff) i just recommend checking out some of their articles, here are some of the topics from Q&A from his viewers (christians and atheists)
Is a Beginningless Past Actually Infinite?, Design Inferences and Familiarity, Divine Eternity and Intra-Trinitarian Relations, Misconceptions about Middle Knowledge, Is the Islamic Conception of God Morally Inadequate? , Penal Theory of the Atonement, Fine-Tuning and Improbability, Marriage Advice, God and Mind/Body Dualism, God's Necessity, Objections to the Causal Principle, Can Kagan Deliver Objective Moral Values and Duties?, Santa Claus, Tooth Fairies, and God, Is God Morally Praiseworthy?
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On March 23 2011 11:07 BlackMagister wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 11:00 whiteguycash wrote:On March 23 2011 10:48 Igakusei wrote:On March 23 2011 10:38 whiteguycash wrote:How quaint, an Atheist support group. On March 23 2011 10:38 Consolidate wrote:On March 23 2011 10:32 bumatlarge wrote:
As some one who has been a christian for his entire life, you eventually are going to have to start killing people before you make religion extinct. Whether that is sad to hear or not, it's the truth. You aren't going to be around forever. Religions are just advanced cults. It would be very difficult to eradicated cultist tendencies and behaviors. The best we can do is relegate Christianity to the same category as something like Scientology. Really, with that mindset, why wait at all? I mean, I would assume that you are a naturalist, and doesn't naturalist thinking promote evolutionary standards, up to and including the mind and society? Why wait, when your own school of though encourages eradication of different beliefs? [. . .]Just because we evolved through natural selection doesn't mean that we should continue to use "survival of the fittest" as an excuse to murder or otherwise eradicate our weaker cousins.[. . .] That might be right for you, but thats not right for me. Since we have nothing transcendental past ourselves, our own morals and decisions are relative. For someone championing naturalism, you really need to learn to follow the thoughts and worldviews developed into their logical conclusion. Or I guess you don't. Its all relative anyways. Naturalism is not the same as eugenics. Just because someone believes in evolution does not mean they think human society should be governed by "survival of the fittest." We can have standards of morality without religion and it's not like there is one standard set of morality even within religions because of various interpretations.
But why bother? you are only held accountable to people, and there is no grand scheme, so why not do whatever you want? I find it interesting, By the way, that so very many renowned Atheist celebrities would agree with my school of thought.
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When you try to take out religion, you'll be the victim of terrorism, war and genocide.
If religion dies, moral code dies with it. After all, why should we forgive if Jesus was wrong?
Of course, only in utopia/dystopia will religion completely die. In other words it will never happen.
That is the most ignorant statement I have EVER read in my life.
So, without religion people have no morality?
Then you are narcissistic enough to state "After all, Why should we forgive is Jesus was wrong?
What fucking fundamentalist sect are you from?
This isn't a thread about Jesus its a thread about RELIGION which you probably don't know the definition to being that you probably devolved into a sheep without thumbs. It is about statistics and demographics.
Go post your fucking propaganda elsewhere.
User was warned for this post
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Just a note about the results of attempting to forcefully eradicate religion.
There were these people called Nazis. They thought Jews, people who believe in Judaism, should be eradicated. Then we had the final solution, the holocaust, an event to "purify" the world of the Jewish religion.
If you want to eliminate religion, you can't force it upon others (unless you plan on exterminating people). It will have to be a voluntary switch, a phasing out. That voluntary switch won't happen, though.
On March 23 2011 11:13 inamorato wrote:Show nested quote +When you try to take out religion, you'll be the victim of terrorism, war and genocide.
If religion dies, moral code dies with it. After all, why should we forgive if Jesus was wrong?
Of course, only in utopia/dystopia will religion completely die. In other words it will never happen. That is the most ignorant statement I have EVER read in my life. So, without religion people have no morality? Then you are narcissistic enough to state "After all, Why should we forgive is Jesus was wrong? What fucking fundamentalist sect are you from? This isn't a thread about Jesus its a thread about RELIGION which you probably don't know the definition to being that you probably devolved into a sheep without thumbs. It is about statistics and demographics. Go post your fucking propaganda elsewhere.
Actually, this topic is about people becoming less religious in certain regions of the world. Unfortunately, this thread has devolved into a debate over the validity of religion.
Also, since when was Jesus not an integral part of christianity which is a religious belief?
Chill bro.
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On March 23 2011 11:07 Warf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 11:04 rei wrote:On March 23 2011 10:54 Warf wrote:On March 23 2011 10:53 rei wrote:
Bad science, making a clam ignoring population size, The 2 highest populated country in this planet India and China weights 10 tons more than Vietnam and Japan if they are trying to make the claim of extinction of religion. This is an example of a research that looks for an pre-determined result, miss representing and miss leading with their data in order to feature the result they wanted. the research was about percentage of the population not the amount % of small population positively suggest the result is religion extinction. % of a large population negative suggest the result is religion extinction. Ignores large population's negative correlation, and make a claim based on the % in the small population that positively supported their claim. Fail at science. ok you make a research asking everybody in a country what they think about religion like almost ALL researches they are based upon a small sample of a country and not all people that are living there
They based upon a small sample of all the countries including japan, inida, china, vietnam,
japan and vietnam's sample size suggest religion extinction, Inida and china suggest deeply religious.
The only claim they can make is regional religion extinction in Japan and vietnam, which is localize. They can't make the same claim for china and Inida.
Oh by the way on your post about the evidence against the stories in the bible, the burden of proof is on the ppl who claim the bibble is truth. In logic it sounds something like this, you say god exist? proof it. That's a positive proof the claimers have to make in order to proof god exist. It is never the other way around in any legit logical debate.
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On March 23 2011 11:07 AdamBanks wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 11:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 23 2011 10:58 danl9rm wrote:
I'm assuming Christianity is a religion according to this thread.
For religion to completely die out, the gospel would have to be false.
Religion, therefore, will never die. I agree with Statement 1. I agree with Statement 2. I think 3 is a non-sequitur, because... well, the onus is on you to prove the gospel to be true. lol. I fail to see how premise 1 and 2 lead to that conc. regardless of beliefs. Best leave issues in logic like this to people like decartes, spinoza or leibniz....
That's exactly what I said...
Non-sequitur means that it doesn't logically follow lol.
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I like to beleive that im not killing/doing bad things to people, because i think its wrong, not because i think im gunna be punished for it
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On March 23 2011 10:34 Warf wrote:i got the list from this study from highest percentage of non believers in god(s) to lowest ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/byAG0.jpg)
lol at US being only 3%, either way i believe religion will most likely go extinct as many people now a days are spiritual but not religious. and i don't see anything wrong with that as long as one attempts to lead a good life.
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On March 23 2011 11:08 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
The OP study is flatout statistical extrapolation, so the conclusion of "extinction" is invalid.
A brief note on "no point to religion" and whatnot: at its very heart, religion is the effort to seek the higher being labeled God(s). Most definitions posit these as omniscient, omnipotent, or simply "beyond." As such, religion ultimately stems from the human phenomenon of the pivotal question: why can humanity imagine something greater than can exist? Why can we think of perfect ideals when by their nature they are unattainable? What does it mean to have a concept of an infinity, of a God? I feel that the question of religion is intrinsically linked to the base philosophical questions of why we can have any normativity and system of values, so its extinction can never really happen.
Yes but a system of values and normativity can easily be achieved without religion, in a way that is logical and is not merely blindly followed due to tradition.
Why do people need god to understand in life the idea of just being a good person.
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People will always subscribe to nonsensical beliefs. Marginalized sure, but not extinct. Some people still believe world is flat and lochness monsters exists. Religion to me is on the last on the list threatened to go away among those. Even if you think religion is stupid, it won't go away before those do and theyre not in anytime going away soon. and its much easier to show someone why their beliefs are wrong on things that are provable than something elusive as religion.
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Nah, I don't think that it's going to end in the next 30 years. There's still to many catholics, christians and muslims in the world.
Also, I get my ass bashed when I talk about agnostic friends of mine why do I associate myself with them :/
Well, that's here but I don't know in the rest of the world. Vietnam seems to be the highest since they're belief is in the Buddhism system.
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On March 23 2011 11:13 inamorato wrote:Show nested quote +When you try to take out religion, you'll be the victim of terrorism, war and genocide.
If religion dies, moral code dies with it. After all, why should we forgive if Jesus was wrong?
Of course, only in utopia/dystopia will religion completely die. In other words it will never happen. That is the most ignorant statement I have EVER read in my life. So, without religion people have no morality? Then you are narcissistic enough to state "After all, Why should we forgive is Jesus was wrong? What fucking fundamentalist sect are you from? This isn't a thread about Jesus its a thread about RELIGION which you probably don't know the definition to being that you probably devolved into a sheep without thumbs. It is about statistics and demographics. Go post your fucking propaganda elsewhere.
The real question is, why are you so angry, you can disagree with him withut saying the word "fuck" whenever you can.
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On March 23 2011 10:34 Warf wrote:i got the list from this study from highest percentage of non believers in god(s) to lowest
How old is that chart?
I remember looking at a recent statistic showing that the U.S. is at approx 15% atheist/agnostic/non-believer. I would say its certainly growing exponentially in the U.S. or at least in California.
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On March 23 2011 11:14 Kojak21 wrote:
I like to beleive that im not killing/doing bad things to people, because i think its wrong, not because i think im gunna be punished for it
This is my point above^ exactly
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On March 23 2011 10:34 Warf wrote:i got the list from this study from highest percentage of non believers in god(s) to lowest
Meh, Flip this graph around and you'll see that most of these countries have 50%+ believers so it really is saying to me that there are a huge percentage of religious people on the majority of these countries.
Plus my own travel experience and people I've met through 10 years of backpacking leads me to believe religion is growing strongly in certain parts of the world such as China as they discover Christianity,
sounds like an amateurish piece of media at first glance.
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On March 23 2011 11:13 101toss wrote:
Just a note about the results of attempting to forcefully eradicate religion.
There were these people called Nazis. They thought Jews, people who believe in Judaism, should be eradicated. Then we had the final solution, the holocaust, an event to "purify" the world of the Jewish religion.
If you want to eliminate religion, you can't force it upon others (unless you plan on exterminating people). It will have to be a voluntary switch, a phasing out. That voluntary switch won't happen, though.
Christianity thought otherwise with the crusade's killing muslims for the holy lands (jerusalem) back in the medievals and when christianity got a hold of the city the muslims went back in and out a endless religious war. eliminating religion goes hand in hand with forcing your own if you have one
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On March 23 2011 11:13 101toss wrote:
Just a note about the results of attempting to forcefully eradicate religion.
There were these people called Nazis. They thought Jews, people who believe in Judaism, should be eradicated. Then we had the final solution, the holocaust, an event to "purify" the world of the Jewish religion.
If you want to eliminate religion, you can't force it upon others (unless you plan on exterminating people). It will have to be a voluntary switch, a phasing out. That voluntary switch won't happen, though.
What's that law called? The one that states that the longer a conversation goes on for, the greater likelyhood there is for someone to make a nazi comparison?
Anyway, that's flawed. They didn't actively eradicate christians. Their objectives weren't eliminating religion, it was eliminating a religion.
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No wonder these countries are getting farther ahead of the US in terms of intelligence.
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On March 23 2011 10:32 101toss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 10:24 TMStarcraft wrote:
I just wanted post yay! and end it there. But I'm truly glad that Australia was included in that list. Frankly I'm suprised that such a list can actually exist. Will religion ever disappear? Probably not, but small steps towards something cannot be a bad thing.
What do you guys think? How do you feel about your country being/not being listed? Religion is a touchy subject but it is one the definitely needs to be discussed. While you certainly have the right to your opinion, the rhetoric used here seems like it will start a flame war. After all, we're not here to bash religion, are we? On the article, horribly worded. Religion will never go extinct. It may have gone down in certain regions. Will it lower its prevalance in, say, the middle east? Or a large portion of America? Probably not. Beliefs are passed down from generation to generation, and in these regions, not being religiously affiliated makes one a pariah to an extent. Btw, I'm lutheran, and won't renounce my beliefs. Ever.Also, I'm expecting a lot of red text in this thread in a few moments.
Closed mindedness is a big part of the problem. With sufficient evidence you should be open to changing your opinion on anything.
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On March 23 2011 11:13 101toss wrote:If you want to eliminate religion, you can't force it upon others (unless you plan on exterminating people). It will have to be a voluntary switch, a phasing out. That voluntary switch won't happen, though.
Yes, it will. Because the older generations will die and every new generation will be further and further away from an outdated concept as religion.
It might take one hundred years, it might take a thousand, but religion as we know it will dissapear, as long as the human civilization keeps advancing in it's knowledge of the universe.
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EPT
