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Savior plays BW games on Afreeca - Page 24

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JohannesH
Profile Joined September 2009
Finland1364 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-27 11:43:12
May 27 2011 11:41 GMT
#461
It's quite different when you've gotten big monetary gains from what you've done. Someone doing it for just e-penis/convenience is much less condemnable.

It's like shoplifting candy vs robbing a bank.
If you have to ask, you don't know.
eXigent.
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Canada2419 Posts
May 27 2011 12:14 GMT
#462
On May 26 2011 21:43 ULTRAmarine wrote:
I think saviors ban is bullshit for one. the continuing ban from GOM is straight out bullying.

Throwing in games does not give him an edge in the competition. it is nothing like a maphack or such. because of this, there is no reason for the sport to be so condemning. i do think that match fixing is bad for the sport but that is in the exactly same sense in which it is bad for the sport if a good player plays bad one day and loses to a bad player - plus that IF match fixing gets wide spread the _overall_ quality of the game diminishes.

But fortunately for us and the game, even the betting is already illegal. The kespa doesn't really have to do anything about it. Some much smaller punishment is due in my opinion, but largely symbolic.
To keep the best player ever from perhaps another shot at bw or a new career in sc2 because of criminal activities at the side of gaming is fucking stupid.


huh? you're acting like what he did was minor. He got people to throw games at the highest level of competition to make money off them. His ban is justifiable because you cannot put trust in savior to never do that again. You will always wonder, did he lose on purpose or not
ULTRAmarine
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden47 Posts
May 27 2011 12:31 GMT
#463
On May 26 2011 21:49 FlydRaLiSK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 26 2011 21:43 ULTRAmarine wrote:
I think saviors ban is bullshit for one. the continuing ban from GOM is straight out bullying.

Throwing in games does not give him an edge in the competition. it is nothing like a maphack or such. because of this, there is no reason for the sport to be so condemning. i do think that match fixing is bad for the sport but that is in the exactly same sense in which it is bad for the sport if a good player plays bad one day and loses to a bad player - plus that IF match fixing gets wide spread the _overall_ quality of the game diminishes.

But fortunately for us and the game, even the betting is already illegal. The kespa doesn't really have to do anything about it. Some much smaller punishment is due in my opinion, but largely symbolic.
To keep the best player ever from perhaps another shot at bw or a new career in sc2 because of criminal activities at the side of gaming is fucking stupid.


the level of stupid and incorrectness in this post is astounding


the level of substance in this post is zero. gotta luv the average internet moron

User was temp banned for this post.
Deekin[
Profile Joined December 2010
Serbia1713 Posts
May 27 2011 12:32 GMT
#464
Its very safe to say that Savior wont come back to any kind of tournament in BW so why are everyone hoping for it when it wont happen?
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ CJ Entus fighting! I am a Leta, Hydra, Mind and (ofcourse) Firebathero fan. (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
ULTRAmarine
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden47 Posts
May 27 2011 12:48 GMT
#465
On May 27 2011 21:14 eXigent. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 26 2011 21:43 ULTRAmarine wrote:
I think saviors ban is bullshit for one. the continuing ban from GOM is straight out bullying.

Throwing in games does not give him an edge in the competition. it is nothing like a maphack or such. because of this, there is no reason for the sport to be so condemning. i do think that match fixing is bad for the sport but that is in the exactly same sense in which it is bad for the sport if a good player plays bad one day and loses to a bad player - plus that IF match fixing gets wide spread the _overall_ quality of the game diminishes.

But fortunately for us and the game, even the betting is already illegal. The kespa doesn't really have to do anything about it. Some much smaller punishment is due in my opinion, but largely symbolic.
To keep the best player ever from perhaps another shot at bw or a new career in sc2 because of criminal activities at the side of gaming is fucking stupid.


huh? you're acting like what he did was minor. He got people to throw games at the highest level of competition to make money off them. His ban is justifiable because you cannot put trust in savior to never do that again. You will always wonder, did he lose on purpose or not


yeah, as i spent my post saying, i think the event is minor out of the community's perspective and that's that. How is it a big problem for the game if someone, somewhere, sometimes, plays worse than they are capable of (happens all the time) on purpose? I don't see it. Yes it sucks when people don't play their best. Yes it sucks when scumbags make money from scams. But it is not our concern and i think it's straight out wrong, punishing saviour in this way. It would be like if i went pro (ofc no chance) and someone told kespa about my teen life: shoplifting, theft, burglary, robbery, drugs, violence, vandalism, etc, and i then was banned for my UNRELATED misconduct. The match betting is illegal but unrelated to the game. The match fix is kind of double illegal, slightly less unrelated to the game, but it holds the exactly same negative value for the community as if these players just had a bad day. MINOR.

The trust thingy you bring up is pure BS. Why do you trust the other players? The only thing you know that separates them from savior & co is that they have not (yet) been busted. Unless you actually have statistics pointing towards a proneness for relapse among eSports criminals you have nothing but an emotional ground for wanting savior forced off the stage. Emotions make for extremely BAD guidelines for legal actions.

TL;DR: again, savior didnt put himself in a gamewise favorable position and his crimes are thus not kespa's or our business to condemn and punish. We already have a legal system, let them do their job and stop the retarded vigilante mob thing.
Grettin
Profile Joined April 2010
42411 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-27 12:50:16
May 27 2011 12:49 GMT
#466
On May 27 2011 21:32 Deekin[ wrote:
Its very safe to say that Savior wont come back to any kind of tournament in BW so why are everyone hoping for it when it wont happen?


That was pretty obvious wasn't it? I don't see anyone hoping for it since they already know that won't happen.
"If I had force-fields in Brood War, I'd never lose." -Bisu
Sandrosuperstar
Profile Joined November 2009
Sweden525 Posts
May 27 2011 12:57 GMT
#467
On May 27 2011 21:48 ULTRAmarine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 27 2011 21:14 eXigent. wrote:
On May 26 2011 21:43 ULTRAmarine wrote:
I think saviors ban is bullshit for one. the continuing ban from GOM is straight out bullying.

Throwing in games does not give him an edge in the competition. it is nothing like a maphack or such. because of this, there is no reason for the sport to be so condemning. i do think that match fixing is bad for the sport but that is in the exactly same sense in which it is bad for the sport if a good player plays bad one day and loses to a bad player - plus that IF match fixing gets wide spread the _overall_ quality of the game diminishes.

But fortunately for us and the game, even the betting is already illegal. The kespa doesn't really have to do anything about it. Some much smaller punishment is due in my opinion, but largely symbolic.
To keep the best player ever from perhaps another shot at bw or a new career in sc2 because of criminal activities at the side of gaming is fucking stupid.


huh? you're acting like what he did was minor. He got people to throw games at the highest level of competition to make money off them. His ban is justifiable because you cannot put trust in savior to never do that again. You will always wonder, did he lose on purpose or not


yeah, as i spent my post saying, i think the event is minor out of the community's perspective and that's that. How is it a big problem for the game if someone, somewhere, sometimes, plays worse than they are capable of (happens all the time) on purpose? I don't see it. Yes it sucks when people don't play their best. Yes it sucks when scumbags make money from scams. But it is not our concern and i think it's straight out wrong, punishing saviour in this way. It would be like if i went pro (ofc no chance) and someone told kespa about my teen life: shoplifting, theft, burglary, robbery, drugs, violence, vandalism, etc, and i then was banned for my UNRELATED misconduct. The match betting is illegal but unrelated to the game. The match fix is kind of double illegal, slightly less unrelated to the game, but it holds the exactly same negative value for the community as if these players just had a bad day. MINOR.

The trust thingy you bring up is pure BS. Why do you trust the other players? The only thing you know that separates them from savior & co is that they have not (yet) been busted. Unless you actually have statistics pointing towards a proneness for relapse among eSports criminals you have nothing but an emotional ground for wanting savior forced off the stage. Emotions make for extremely BAD guidelines for legal actions.

TL;DR: again, savior didnt put himself in a gamewise favorable position and his crimes are thus not kespa's or our business to condemn and punish. We already have a legal system, let them do their job and stop the retarded vigilante mob thing.


good point and i totally agree
I'm homo for Lomo, gay for GGplay, but at the end of the day I put my dong in Lee Jaedong
Brad`
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada548 Posts
May 27 2011 13:00 GMT
#468
I think you'd get a bit more support for your arguement if you had any idea what you were talking about. Savior was never formally accused of throwing games and its unlikely that he ever did.
ULTRAmarine
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden47 Posts
May 27 2011 13:55 GMT
#469
On May 27 2011 22:00 Brad` wrote:
I think you'd get a bit more support for your arguement if you had any idea what you were talking about. Savior was never formally accused of throwing games and its unlikely that he ever did.


if so, feel free to insert any match thrower's name where i wrote savior. Where he only middle man in this business i feel my argument is even more valid - his criminal life (almost) outside of esports is not the business of esports.
KameZerg
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Sweden1772 Posts
May 27 2011 14:33 GMT
#470
You guys dont give a shit if hes been throwing games for money, you just want him to come back cuz hes sAviOr. If you think he doesnt deserve the punishment or should be given a second chance then show the other game throwing assholes some love to.
asdasdasdasdasd123123123
ymir233
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States8275 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-27 14:38:18
May 27 2011 14:37 GMT
#471
On May 27 2011 22:55 ULTRAmarine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 27 2011 22:00 Brad` wrote:
I think you'd get a bit more support for your arguement if you had any idea what you were talking about. Savior was never formally accused of throwing games and its unlikely that he ever did.


if so, feel free to insert any match thrower's name where i wrote savior. Where he only middle man in this business i feel my argument is even more valid - his criminal life (almost) outside of esports is not the business of esports.


Logically your argument makes sense based upon the idea that talking about criminal matters in the jurisdiction of eSports is nontopical. Morally, however, sAviOr must be punished for his actions because he went against the 'fair gaming/competition' aspect of Starcraft due to his greed. This is not a consequentialist debate. It is absolute. Whether everybody was in consent or not, again, he destroyed the skill-based, competitive nature of Starcraft that we enjoy and KeSPA had an obligation to ban him as an example and as a punishment. It's the same as in any other competitive event. There are no competitive events where cheating/match fixing is LEGAL, per se, but no event organization has jurisdiction over criminal justice. Yet they all ban frauds.
Come motivate me to be cynical about animus at http://infinityandone.blogspot.com/ // Stork proxy gates are beautiful.
RoarMan
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada745 Posts
May 27 2011 14:57 GMT
#472
I'm glad saviOr's playing. You can't stop the man from doing what he loves.
All the pros got dat Ichie.
ULTRAmarine
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden47 Posts
May 27 2011 15:42 GMT
#473
On May 27 2011 23:37 ymir233 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 27 2011 22:55 ULTRAmarine wrote:
On May 27 2011 22:00 Brad` wrote:
I think you'd get a bit more support for your arguement if you had any idea what you were talking about. Savior was never formally accused of throwing games and its unlikely that he ever did.


if so, feel free to insert any match thrower's name where i wrote savior. Where he only middle man in this business i feel my argument is even more valid - his criminal life (almost) outside of esports is not the business of esports.


Logically your argument makes sense based upon the idea that talking about criminal matters in the jurisdiction of eSports is nontopical. Morally, however, sAviOr must be punished for his actions because he went against the 'fair gaming/competition' aspect of Starcraft due to his greed. This is not a consequentialist debate. It is absolute. Whether everybody was in consent or not, again, he destroyed the skill-based, competitive nature of Starcraft that we enjoy and KeSPA had an obligation to ban him as an example and as a punishment. It's the same as in any other competitive event. There are no competitive events where cheating/match fixing is LEGAL, per se, but no event organization has jurisdiction over criminal justice. Yet they all ban frauds.


That also reflects my opinion on why he (as well as all the other players involved in the scandal, but itt we talk about savior) should be punished by kespa. I do however, as stated in my first post, think the lifetime ban from bw is too harsh and the preemptive continuing ban into korean sc2 (if savior ever wished to switch) is weird, out of place, mean, undeserved, yadda yadda. I think this because i rate the damage done as quite low, and i also think future similar events will be looked upon with much less hatred and bias. This was the first time the child that is eSports was molested, and the first cut is the deepest. That simile was disgusting, excuse me.
ReaperX
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Hong Kong1758 Posts
May 27 2011 16:11 GMT
#474
Not to be biased towards KT's coach but the word's were not neccesary and i'm glad he said sorry later.
Artosis : Clide. idrA : Shut up.
Deleted User 183001
Profile Joined May 2011
2939 Posts
May 27 2011 16:15 GMT
#475
If only Savior didn't get into that stupid shit like he did. I like his playing .
I'd bet there were plenty of other players in the same business, but he was the one with the misfortune of having his hand seen in the cookie jar. I hope he learned his lesson.
Clbull
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United Kingdom1439 Posts
May 27 2011 16:28 GMT
#476
On May 27 2011 21:32 Deekin[ wrote:
Its very safe to say that Savior wont come back to any kind of tournament in BW so why are everyone hoping for it when it wont happen?


I think it is extremely safe to say that Savior won't make a comeback in BW. KeSPA have given him a lifetime ban from e-sports. Having said this, it's funny to see that coach post a tweet pretty much with a HOW DARE HE PLAY BROOD WAR NON-COMPETITIVELY AGAIN, THE MATCH FIXING SCUMBAG type message.

Then again, if it's only KeSPA that have permabanned him from professional competition, could he technically go into Starcraft II seeing as KeSPA don't really have any control currently over that game and because the foreign progamer scene has hugely flourished for SC2 compared to how it was for BW?

In fact, I think the only thing that would really hold Savior back is his past record in the scandal and any of the negative PR generated by allowing him in (even a foreign) progaming team or league.

Seeing how overly strict KeSPA have been on trivial things such as what you can say on in-game chat, I don't think they will EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER give Savior another chance to compete in Broodwar.
Spyfire242
Profile Joined March 2009
United States715 Posts
May 27 2011 16:31 GMT
#477
I think the ban is absolutely justified, but at the same time I also think that redemption shouldn't be out of the question, everyone should have a 2nd chance, all the people involved in the scandal not just sAviOr.
Entusman #55 Spyfire242!
Coriolis
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1152 Posts
May 27 2011 16:52 GMT
#478
On May 28 2011 01:28 Clbull wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 27 2011 21:32 Deekin[ wrote:
Its very safe to say that Savior wont come back to any kind of tournament in BW so why are everyone hoping for it when it wont happen?


I think it is extremely safe to say that Savior won't make a comeback in BW. KeSPA have given him a lifetime ban from e-sports. Having said this, it's funny to see that coach post a tweet pretty much with a HOW DARE HE PLAY BROOD WAR NON-COMPETITIVELY AGAIN, THE MATCH FIXING SCUMBAG type message.

Then again, if it's only KeSPA that have permabanned him from professional competition, could he technically go into Starcraft II seeing as KeSPA don't really have any control currently over that game and because the foreign progamer scene has hugely flourished for SC2 compared to how it was for BW?

In fact, I think the only thing that would really hold Savior back is his past record in the scandal and any of the negative PR generated by allowing him in (even a foreign) progaming team or league.

Seeing how overly strict KeSPA have been on trivial things such as what you can say on in-game chat, I don't think they will EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER give Savior another chance to compete in Broodwar.

GOMTV banned all the matchfixers as well. As for non-korean competitions who knows, AFAIK there haven't been any official statements on them.
Descolada in everything not TL/Starcraft
Brad`
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada548 Posts
May 27 2011 17:05 GMT
#479
On May 27 2011 22:55 ULTRAmarine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 27 2011 22:00 Brad` wrote:
I think you'd get a bit more support for your arguement if you had any idea what you were talking about. Savior was never formally accused of throwing games and its unlikely that he ever did.


if so, feel free to insert any match thrower's name where i wrote savior. Where he only middle man in this business i feel my argument is even more valid - his criminal life (almost) outside of esports is not the business of esports.


I'm fairly certain that one's criminal record is the business of your current or potential employer.
Enchanted
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States1609 Posts
May 27 2011 17:10 GMT
#480
If Savior started playing again i'd watch BW. After reading the article about him and watching some of his games I was just amazed. Watching him play has completly changed my perspective on how I view SC2, everyone can learn something from watching Savior be amazing.
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