As long as the GSL is on Blizzard maps, and especially if it's on all the Blizzard maps we can't expect a professional level tournament.
Would a solution to this be for the GSL to post a map pool in advance and let people practice? Or does the lack of LAN support make that impossible? I worry that with battlenet being the only way to create games, tournaments are kind of stuck using blizzard maps since getting players the maps in time for them to plan strats on them is a bit prohibitive.
Maybe someone at blizzard will address this someday.
While I think people should be worried about the fact that there are so many cheese/all-in builds that are working at a high level, I don't think it's fair to lash out at Rain. I'm a firm believer in playing to win, and if that means cheesing and all-ins, then so be it.
If the game doesn't evolve and people don't figure out ways of defeating these things, then obviously something should be done about it- but I think it was wrong of rain to apologize. Play to win, if the opponent can't get over the all-in, why stop doing it?
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/ <--- highly recommended to everyone that thinks cheesing is unfair/cheap/would never use it
people just didn't figured out how to properly deal with allins (totally the wrong word for it but oh well). Well because of the short maps and the super fast zerg units and the warp in system for toss. Its really hard to stop these early attacks, because the stream isn't going to slow down. terran uses his workers as a replacement for the instant there units.
And if you prepare for an early push the opponent can simply play macro rocket, because its really easy to sky rocket away in macro.
People prefer this open battle thingie in sc2, because its so much easier then a macro game filled with harassment, because its so easy to get vision everywhere and stopping harassment is ultra easy.
Also there is this trend where one race says we can't win a macro game against this race. Making people to frustrated to even try something new. (maybe also because if we cry enough we are getting buffed by blizzard) Well in my opionion zerg was pretty fine with the old roaches, because they were not working that well late game anymore, now they work perfectly fine lategame and became a trade your army cost effectiv against the opponent unit. (well people have another opinion on that and i am aware of it, my experience were different though) But because the zergs didn't even tryed something new except a few, blizzard patched something and the people started to play without this i am underpowered stuff. And soon it was zerg is op can't win a macro game against them. I think if this patching because one side cryes and doesn't try something new will continue, its even pretty hopeless to try and make balanced maps.
I will just go with the flavor of the month tactic after blizzard patched a unit thingie, because it will probably go on for a few more years. And i saw some entertaining matches until now. But ended up prefering vods or whatching casters i like. Since Live games can become really not worth watching.
Part of the difference stems from the stalker and dragoons being very different units now. In BW (according to liquipedia) marines had range 4, upgradeable to 5. Dragoons had range 4, upgradeable to 6. As such, it made it very easier to kite marines if you were upgraded and they weren't.
After seeing that, my comment to blizz is "Give me back my shield battery darn it!"
My preference is to play macrotoss and my pet peeve is when a zerg decides after scouting my FE, rather than get into a macro game switches gears into a 2 hatch speedling / baneling all in. (Hard to scout too b/c they just kill all your scouts w/ speedlings)
Unfortunately, except with Terran and in mirror matches, there's really so little of an in base advantage. Proxy pylons / warp in neutralizes much of an in base advantage versus toss, and MM balls are so efficient that they can just stutter step you to death while waiting for reinforcements to come in. Plus the high building killing DPS means that bases just don't last very long anymore. The high burst damage of mauraders or roaches makes mismicroing against them very punished. For base defense, Protoss lost one of their greatest defensive mechanics between SC:BW and SC2: the shield battery. The shield battery enabled a lot of protoss units to be incredibly more efficient simply because they could retreat, recharge and come back to fight again. Defending against a roach allin for example would be quite different if you could retreat your stalkers and recharge half their life.
I'm only 1900 diamond, so I'm not qualified to suggest how to fix the all inning problem. Certainly the maps make a difference: less all-ins on Jungle Basin / Shakuras / LT / Metal and more on Steppes / DQ. I do hope that the additional mechanics they bring in in HotS and LotV tend to encourage more macromanagement play rather than 1 base all inning.
I don;t understand why people are making such a big deal about this. Boxer was praised for his creative all-in and micro heavy builds, yet Rain is being torn apart for it. Yeah I do hate the 1900 stage of ladder because you play people who mostly all-in or cheese but it is still part of the game. Any game will go through this in the early stages, but once people figure out builds that allow an economic advantage while protecting from cheese, the game will move into macro mode.
Blizzard patching the game is pointless, Terran before Boxer is the same Terran Flash uses.
If the game needs to be patched to be a real game than why are people playing hundred thousand dollar tournaments over it.
If GSL use a professional quality map pool and after six months Zerg win every match or Cheese is still as rampant I'll eat a whole crow but constantly patching a perfectly fine game around how professionals play maps designed for amateurs is an amazingly poor way of continuing for professional and amateurs alike.
Something to consider is that Rain admitted to not really practicing his TvZ before his set with Nestea. While he said there were personal reasons, the fact that he brought it up added some fuel to the fire. I think there was a case to be made that he was under prepared and thus used the early aggression, which even talented zergs admit can be a coin flip for them (meaning sometimes they hold and sometimes they don't despite having a 'counter' plan for it), as a crutch. Granted, there is a case to be made that Nestea could ahve done more, but the worry remains that the marine/scv bunker rush is simply too easy to execute given the difficulty in defending.
As an unskilled player, I can't really speak to that. But that seems to be a sentiment shared by many across skill levels (idra and ret would agree to an extent, maybe?). I dunno. My impression.
As for why this is a big deal; it really shouldn't be for many of us. Fans have opinions of what they want to see. It's like getting mad that your favorite tv sucked for an episode. Programers, on the other hand, have more at stake.
Just wanna state, to those who say: 'LoL, Nestea and HongUn should have defended well, Rain did everything to win. It's not his fault... etc'
We are not discussing whether cheese was justified or not, whether its imbalanced or not. Lets be honest, cheese is horrible to watch, especially when it wins games. It makes games less entertaining and its bad for SC2 viewership, which basically means it will fail as competitive esports. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't say completely eliminate cheeses. Its ok to have them here and there. But cheese needs to involve high risk and easily countered if scouted.
On December 09 2010 22:37 AfouToPatisa wrote: OK guys I feel like I should start posting, I've been lurking the forums for a while.
I can't see the obsession of people calling early game tactics "cheese" or even more, disliking them. I come from a different planet of gaming called DotA (8 years player) where it's quite the opposite: There is a general hate towards turtling/farming because its mostly boring. Early game is quite important and it's what usually decides the flow of the game. That goes for most strategy games SC2, DotA, chess....[..] hell even backgammon!
I can understand though if you hate the poor show of a "cheese-attack" which for me is not poor at all. Take for example Rain's SCV all-in today: it was 7-8 marines microing against 3-5 stalkers. I loved that! It was intense and breathtaking! What's the difference seeing 8v8 units and seeing 50v50 units?
TL;DR= Since when is it lame to early attack at SC2? and why is it not lame to tech/expand? ..... Moreover, when trying to tech/expand without building the right defenses and eventually losing why is it OK to whine? Who defines what is lame and what is not? Anyone played DotA before? It's the equivalent to getting all +dmg items to farm and not getting boots - You are bound to lose and you should give opponent ALL the respect for winning you.
Your misconception is the misconception that people hate cheese.
It's a legit part of the game for sure, but when it consists of 75%+ of the total games played, something is terribly wrong.
No, people do hate cheese. There are some who hate that it's so frequent but some people just hate it no matter the situation.
ie. guy above me lol
On December 09 2010 23:52 bokeevboke wrote: Just wanna state, to those who say: 'LoL, Nestea and HongUn should have defended well, Rain did everything to win. It's not his fault... etc'
We are not discussing whether cheese was justified or not, whether its imbalanced or not. Lets be honest, cheese is horrible to watch, especially when it wins games. It makes games less entertaining and its bad for SC2 viewership, which basically means it will fail as competitive esports. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't say completely eliminate cheeses. Its ok to have them here and there. But cheese needs to involve high risk and easily countered if scouted.
Sorry, but I hate it when people speak for others when they don't. I don't hate cheese, I think it's very entertaining. WHAT NOW
These players who perform well in tournaments by cheesy/all-in play should, if anything, be praised for their ability to adapt to the new game that is SC2. I find that macro-oriented SC2 players who were known Brood War players are too often labeled "better SC2 players" even if they perform worse in SC2 tournaments.
It seems that the macro-oriented players are labeled "better SC2 players" because their playstyle more closely resembles what tended to win games in Brood War.
I agree that too much cheese isn't fun to watch. I also agree that cheesy play is significantly easier to execute that macro-oriented play. The blame here should go to Blizzard, not to players who play to win.
On December 09 2010 23:08 nalgene wrote: you kinda need to "cheese" them or Timing Attack them once in awhile or they'd FE every time to keep them in check
a stalker should be able to do this, but hongun wasn't able to do it
this is possible too, but they just need to micro a bit better perhaps
No more shield battery. =( In all honesty I think that was the anti-cheese building for Protoss. Of course Terran never had an infantry unit that beat a gateway unit straight up...on that note the reason Protoss have a bit of trouble holding off cheeses is because they don't have the Dragoon anymore.
It may sound silly and almost imbalanced, but there is no Terran or Zerg unit that beats a Dragoon 1v1 except for Battlecruisers, Ultralisk, and I think Guardian (?). The same can be said of the Zealot I think, but more so the Dragoon. Although it seems weird to have a unit that beats everything 1v1, Protoss needs it for balance because of the relatively low unit count.
Note: I know that some Terran units can beat a Dragoon 1v1, but hey require micro (vulture) or high ground advantage (tank).
Okay, so you saw a discussion about Rain doing all-ins to win. Then you decided "Wait, wait guys. Even though there's 44 pages of discussion about this, I will open my own thread summarizing how you should all act.
Why would you possibly do this? Why would you think this is a good idea?
EPT![[image loading]](http://holistickid.com/holistickidwordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/flying-pig1.jpg)
