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toadstool
Australia421 Posts
If you look at the best korean players for each time, you will clearly see that: OGs: Top, Ensnare Prime: Maka TSL: Clide are all beasts. Imagine how good Tester would be if he switched to Terran! I think that at lower levels of play (1800-2100 diamond) Protoss players are better, because the level of skill for Terrans is generally lower. But for the higher level TvP, it's a lot easier for top level Terran to push the pressure and force the Protoss player to make mistakes. | ||
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TsoBadGuy
United States221 Posts
I skrim with nothing but dirty Terrans. Bio is strong but not impossible to beat. Most of the examples you gave didn't really address the fact that gateway wasn't effected and Nexus got a nice buff. And I never really used VRs much outside of the first nerf because by then Terran were used to dealing with Range 7 VRs and having stim with marines at the outset. Although I'm only 1200ish I skrim with 1450-1750 friends a good bit who have even MORE leet friends. And if I ever went VRs vs them I'd have to win with it, and that's never a good situation to be in. Players at that level know bio is very strong vs protoss, it's just something you gotta learn to deal with. I agree with you on some things, like Protoss being the easiest race, and the most micro oriented. However, as Josealtron stated, the zerg army is much more fragile and definitely takes a lot more attention and micro in certain instances. For instance, you said 12 zeals = 40 lings. In certain cases the lings take more micro, in certain cases zealots do. If you get hit open field by the lings, you attack and scoot and hope you dont get surround so you put your back to something. But if you have Zealots at a ramp, guarding a choke, 12 zealots can easily take WEELL over 40 lings, and if someone forcefields said ramp zerg took a huge loss and took virtually nothing with it. So, while I'm a protoss player, and think my race requires more micro (so bias), if I'm being objective they're just 2 different kinds of micro. Protoss micro is more about control Zerg micro is more about awareness | ||
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sadyque
Romania251 Posts
On October 17 2010 22:54 Acritter wrote: Um... source? You're also ignoring the fact that about 30% of all players should be playing Zerg, and that 20% or 22% shows that they are underpowered. All your statistic shows is that Zerg is more capable at higher levels of play than at lower levels of play. So if 30% of all players arent playing zerg then zerg is UP ? LOL! Dont confuse taste or preference with game balance... | ||
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ShadowWarfare
United Kingdom7 Posts
I think the difference between the two though are the units. Protoss have real clear indications of where to tech to HT deal with almost everything at late game. Collosi deals with any ground based bio at mid - game. Their units make them simple to play. I don't think their micro is even that intensive. Sentry micro takes a bit skill, but a part from senty what else is real micro intensive? Their unit composition? not really when you have units like Zealot which automatically have charge on auto cast and run up to tank dmg. So yes they're not OP. When did anyone really say they were OP? I thoguht Terran was always regarded as the OP race at pro level. But Blizzard have to worry about equal distrubution of players through out all three races, not just race balance. They can't have one race being overpopulated because they're too appealing/simple. | ||
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Grummler
Germany743 Posts
On October 17 2010 22:54 Acritter wrote: You're also ignoring the fact that about 30% of all players should be playing Zerg, and that 20% or 22% shows that they are underpowered. 20% Zerg players shows, that there are less Zerg players then Protoss/Terran. Everything else is an assumption you made. Why is everyone ignoring the offical numbers? I mean PvT: 49.6% PvZ: 52.8% TvZ: 49.6% doesnt look to bad for any race. Protoss seems to be the strongest atm, but i am pretty sure thats because of all these proxy cannon rushes in PvZ. Source | ||
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Snowfield
1289 Posts
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Theovide
Sweden914 Posts
On October 17 2010 22:51 BetterFasterStronger wrote: well a statement like that i can just counter with IdrA started out in starcraft 2 as protoss... and then ahhh my evidence is back! However, Protoss and Terran are the most played races and its only logical that a lot of new players will play terran because it introduces them to the campaign. The Protoss players will win with a high % before they are upgraded to another division. But from all the Warcraft 3 Players i've seen that switched over, a lot of them have chosen Protoss. Placement matches. That's really all I have to say to counter your argument, if they where better players they'd not start in the lower divisons. (For example I played wc3 a bit before sc2, but mostly wow, which doesn't help much with rts's. I started as random and I 5-0'd my first games and got to platinum, and I was only decent at wc3, and before my placements I only did like 3 1v1's vs friends and 3-4 team games.) | ||
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TheDrill
Russian Federation145 Posts
2. Where did you get the idea that protoss players are struggling against terrans? 3. Where did you get the idea that the zerg buffs were needed? Certainly not from the data I'm looking at and certainly not from GSL. This is a veiled balance Q.Q thread that basically says T>P isn't it? | ||
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BetterFasterStronger
United States604 Posts
On October 17 2010 23:14 TheDrill wrote: 1. Where did you get the idea that more new players picked terran? 2. Where did you get the idea that protoss players are struggling against terrans? 3. Where did you get the idea that the zerg buffs were needed? Certainly not from the data I'm looking at and certainly not from GSL. This is a veiled balance Q.Q thread that basically says T>P isn't it? ... zerg buffs weren't needed? Just because Cool completely out played a bunch of terran's doesn't all of a sudden mean Zerg is fixed. I Stated taht Terran and Protoss both have advantages and disadvantages going into the match-up. Stating fact that is nearly worldwide agreed upon that Terran is favored early game is not QQ. Take your flame else where. | ||
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fadestep
United States605 Posts
Certainly there's a broad generalization that is easier to get good with Protoss, since the mechanics of the race are so solid and basic. However, relatively easy to grasp mechanics leading to wins at lower leagues =/= a race is OP. I'm fairly certain that if no changes are made to the game for the rest of its life (hypothetical) Zerg will be regarded as the strongest race within a year or two, with Terran next, and Protoss the weakest. This last part is just conjecture tho, who the fuck really knows. | ||
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Thunderfist
Poland159 Posts
Did u even played anything beside protoss ? What vOddy (top200 US zerg) said about protoss: I can't believe how fucking easy this race is. I'm a Zerg player, and I decided to offrace Protoss for the lulz. Guess what happens? From 1600 points to 1700. LOL. I am not a P player, so why am I not getting my ass kicked? When I switched from Terran to Zerg I lost 150 points and my win % dropped to 50%. Now that I am playing Protoss it's as if I had always been playing them. If you are a Protoss player, you have no fucking idea how spoiled you are. StarCraft 2 is a much harder game than you know. Here's whole thread from GR.org: http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=680617 | ||
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oxxo
988 Posts
On October 17 2010 23:03 toadstool wrote: I whole heartedly agree that at top levels, Terran is overpowered in TvP. If you look at the best korean players for each time, you will clearly see that: OGs: Top, Ensnare Prime: Maka TSL: Clide are all beasts. Imagine how good Tester would be if he switched to Terran! I think that at lower levels of play (1800-2100 diamond) Protoss players are better, because the level of skill for Terrans is generally lower. But for the higher level TvP, it's a lot easier for top level Terran to push the pressure and force the Protoss player to make mistakes. Ummm. You do know that it's actually a matter of T MUST do heavy economic damage to P or they will lose? P >>> T in mid-late -> late game. | ||
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Capteone
United States197 Posts
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agtemd
Canada362 Posts
On October 17 2010 23:08 Grummler wrote: 20% Zerg players shows, that there are less Zerg players then Protoss/Terran. Everything else is an assumption you made. Why is everyone ignoring the offical numbers? I mean PvT: 49.6% PvZ: 52.8% TvZ: 49.6% doesnt look to bad for any race. Protoss seems to be the strongest atm, but i am pretty sure thats because of all these proxy cannon rushes in PvZ. Source And why are there less zerg players? Why does zerg have to work twice as much to be just as effective as P or T? Has anyone here thought that there are less zerg players because of the mechanically demanding skills to win as zerg? | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On October 17 2010 23:27 agtemd wrote: And why are there less zerg players? Why does zerg have to work twice as much to be just as effective as P or T? Has anyone here thought that there are less zerg players because of the mechanically demanding skills to win as zerg? I dont think theres anyone outthere who doesnt agree with this. zerg needs more macro mechanics to play on the same level as a P/T player. | ||
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
Sorry for derailing this topic a little; my random idea for PvT balance: slower, more expensive T infantry upgrades. | ||
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Majk
Sweden146 Posts
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TeWy
France714 Posts
On October 17 2010 23:08 Grummler wrote: 20% Zerg players shows, that there are less Zerg players then Protoss/Terran. Everything else is an assumption you made. Why is everyone ignoring the offical numbers? I mean PvT: 49.6% PvZ: 52.8% TvZ: 49.6% doesnt look to bad for any race. Protoss seems to be the strongest atm, but i am pretty sure thats because of all these proxy cannon rushes in PvZ. Source The only effective statistical method to proof whether a race is imba or not, is to compare the overall ratio at {all levels} and/or {platinum-diamond} ... with their ratio at the TOP. The MU statistics of a whole division makes no sense whatsoever and no knowledge can be extracted from them for obvious reasons. The difference of skill between a low level diamond player such as myself who play 3 games.week and someone as Idra is vast to say the least, and by far superior to the one between a silver and gold player for instance. | ||
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fadestep
United States605 Posts
On October 17 2010 23:22 Thunderfist wrote: OP has no idea what he's talking about. Did u even played anything beside protoss ? What vOddy (top200 US zerg) said about protoss: Here's whole thread from GR.org: http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=680617 Well that's official. There's a single no name American Zerg who won a few matches on ladder with Protoss. Easiest race in the game, DISCOVERED! The whole debate is stupid. So Protoss = Easy to be decent at =/= Easy =/= OP. Ya dig? | ||
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SwaY-
Dominican Republic463 Posts
On October 17 2010 22:39 TeWy wrote: If you compare both Terran and Zerg overall players ratio, with their ratio at the TOP, you will notice that both of them are over-represented. The "Zerg is weak" assertion is a myth invented by Zerg players who either are clear hypocrites or who don't understack jack shit about statistics and compare the ratio of Zerg players at the TOP without taking into account how many Zerg players they are on the server. If for instance 20% of NZ players play Zerg and that they are 22% Zerg in the TOP 200, we can definitely conclude that the zerg race isn't weak, rather imba, get it ? Protoss while having nearly as many players as Terrans on most servers are clearly under-represented at the TOP, at least everytime I checked the numbers. This proofs that, despite being a very interisting race, it sucks balance-wise. Terran is under-represented at the top lvl of play? Really? | ||
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