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Since most PvP strats seems to focus around "If I get collosus first, you lose", I have been fiddling around with alternative strategies that does not rely on cheese. Facts:
1. Most Protoss in PvP will only make 1, or skip the observer entirely, unless given a good reason to have more.
2. Blink stalkers can snipe down enemy observers incredibly easily
3. If the enemy doesn't get robotics facility, you can end up instant winning.
So far I have had limited success with this. First off, you can easily end up in a situation where he has such a large army that even without observers, he can quickly kill off your army, run past the DTs and kill all your probes before the DTs can finish them off.
Getting Blink stalkers, observers and dark templars from one base is practically impossible because of the amount of gas needed. And holding an expo in PvP is hard enough without trying to tech at the same time.
Have anyone had any success with dark templar abuse in PvP? Which build order did you use?
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I've never lost to DTs - I always get an early observer, if I don't see robo I keep my observer near my army and make a go with the first colossus while producing a second observer rallied to my mineral-line
you can get DTs in time, but you won't get an observer for observer-sniping (or if you mix it up, you just won't have DTs in time); you end up dead either way
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I have never gone DT in PvP, mainly because, as the game stands, PvP is very bland in that you can either 4gate, or 3gate robo, or you will get rolled over. In my experience, the first to 4-6 colossi wins. if a game went into late game, dts would certainly be a viability for harassing and stopping mining, but, seeing as the natural progression of PvP as it is currently, I doubt you would find many serious opponents without a robotics.
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You risk either being steamrolled by 4 gate, getting spotted and crushed by colossi, even void rays could own you because of your lack of gas to spent on stalkers.
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It's all about your ability to hide your tech, if its undiscovered your opponent is in a hell of alot of trouble and you got a really good chance for victory. If it's discovered its pretty much over.
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Good strategies don't revolve around sneaky tactics.
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Well in my experience vs ard 1000 diamond protoss, it is viable on long rush distance maps. I do it all the time since colossus vs colossus is so boring. You will have to do crisis management vs 4 gate but once you survive it and deny them detection, you will be ahead. Even if they take the robo route and have an observer out, that observer will probably be in your base. So you have to hit them before they realise what's happening and bring that observer back to their own base. You have to hit them hard enough that their colossus production is extremely delayed. And they will obviously build 2 observers, 1 for their base and 1 to follow their army so that will delay colossus even more. While they're recovering from the DTs and building up their colossus army, you should have expanded and have a much larger army. You should at the most let them get up to 3 colossus before you attack them. Your blink stalkers can easily snipe the colossus while your zealots clean up their zealots.
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On October 05 2010 20:24 Kelorienne wrote:
Good strategies don't revolve around sneaky tactics.
Clearly revolve around button mashing better than your opponent.
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On October 05 2010 20:41 kheldorin wrote:
even if they take the robo route and have an observer out, that observer will probably be in your base.
I don't wanna downplay you, but wtf what players do you play against who leave their observer in your base when they scout a dark shrine???
normally when I scout a dark shrine already done (!) I immediately move my observer back and start producing a 2nd one; the first one stays with my army, the 2nd one protects my ramp; then I'm good to go and normally outright win because gateway + even one colossus > anything you can have because of the amount of gas invested in DTs
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On October 05 2010 20:43 Achilles wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 20:24 Kelorienne wrote:
Good strategies don't revolve around sneaky tactics. Clearly revolve around button mashing better than your opponent.
You clearly don't understand the game. Having a good strategy is different from "button mashing better than your opponent".
Sneaky tactics can be a good addition to the gameplay but basing everything around them is the worst thing to do (that's what bronze players do).
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On October 05 2010 21:02 Wayem wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 20:43 Achilles wrote:On October 05 2010 20:24 Kelorienne wrote:
Good strategies don't revolve around sneaky tactics. Clearly revolve around button mashing better than your opponent. You clearly don't understand the game. Having a good strategy is different from "button mashing better than your opponent". Sneaky tactics can be a good addition to the gameplay but basing everything around them is the worst thing to do (that's what bronze players do).
I didn't say they weren't. Don't be so hostile. I meant it's pretty pathetic to tell somebody trying to learn that something is useless because you only assume he lacks the basics.
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I find they are viable when non rushed. Snipe the detection and pull back letting them run a riot. I would not depend on them to win me the game, but I would use them to turn the tide.
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I haven't seen anyone here talking about the cannons. They're detectors and most of the time I put one near my probes to stop very small harasses. So I don't think DT's are very useful in pvp.
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On October 05 2010 19:45 GoooN wrote:
You risk either being steamrolled by 4 gate, getting spotted and crushed by colossi, even void rays could own you because of your lack of gas to spent on stalkers.
4gate = no detection -> dts are awesome, also its possible to "hold"
void rays = no detection -> dts are awesome.
if opponent got a robo its indeed crap to go dts
On October 05 2010 21:24 Liveon wrote:
I haven't seen anyone here talking about the cannons. They're detectors and most of the time I put one near my probes to stop very small harasses. So I don't think DT's are very useful in pvp.
then you can kill army/important pylons easy/contain till observer is out(several mins imho) and expand
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In my experience, planning to go DT from the start is dangerous. However, if you notice that your opponent isn't going robo because they are planning either 4 gate pressure or fast void rays DTs can be devestating. I've won a few mirror matches flat out with them. Start attacking at their main and take out a robo fact as they try to build it.
They aren't useful often, but when the right timing is there they can win it for you.
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On October 05 2010 20:43 Achilles wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 20:24 Kelorienne wrote:
Good strategies don't revolve around sneaky tactics. Clearly revolve around button mashing better than your opponent.
They revolve around being able to win with solid play. I go DT, he stops it... What now? You're screwed. Gotta have strats that don't give you an auto-loss if it doesn't work.
BW Example: DT expo, rush to DT's, expo and get cannons while storm is researching. If your DT's fail you still have an expansion up and cannons with storm backing them up. Solid strat.
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DT rush isnt the best idea in PvP because protoss typically get obs. You can't killl other obs without obs. Even against people who dont scout it, once you do anything with the DT, if they have a robo your DTs become worthless within a minute.
DT's are effective... but not against a player with mobile cloacked detectors already up..
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I am a mid diamond player and have done DT "rushes" MANY times and have yet to lose actually LOL. It comes down to the timing is just PERFECT. I will go 3gate proxy pylon DT. So I will have a smaller army at home and with the extra minerals I build a forge and a couple cannons behind my wgate wall. This is able to fend off their push. The three dt's warp in by their base JUST as they are about to move out or JUST as their obs is starting to morph in. If you are lucky (which I have been so far) you can get into their base and "snipe" the robo b4 the obs finishes.
It is a definite exploit to the common PvP build orders. I have seen lots of 4gates in my PvP's and that's why I decided to go for dt's in the first place. It definitely works if you don't do "all in" 
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On October 05 2010 21:15 Chronicle wrote:
I find they are viable when non rushed. Snipe the detection and pull back letting them run a riot. I would not depend on them to win me the game, but I would use them to turn the tide.
I'd like to 2nd this post, and add that a Warp Prism makes these guys a lot more effective. When you 'rush' them, you are open a lot of garbage, but if you just make them as part of the game, they can be devilishly good.
And just because they have a Robotics and an Obs with their army doesn't mean your DTs are hooped. Here's a fun fact:
-2 DTs kill a Robotics faster than an Obs can come out. 3 of them beat Chrono Boost every time. Something to keep in mind.
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If you're rushing DTs Im going to see you have no expo, and if you wall me out of a scout Im just gonna get a forge to counter both VRs and DTs (cannons), and expo myself.
and LOL at PvP being a colossus race, 4 gate blink stalkers/zeal legs massacres 2gate colossus, as long as you don't wait a year to push (blink-snipe his 1-2 colos, gg).
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Dark shrine rushed is a coin flip against three techs, though its more like 75% against you on the coin flip. That said. Are you joking DT's are bawllin 60 damage per swipe upgraded, the ability to force food on observers and force your opponent in combat to focus fire them while you have something like colossus or immortals or other tech units to just reave your opponents is just invaluable.
As for countering colossus tech, I'd personally just go meat shield against them and have my DT's close with them quickly. I just like them because they force focus firing, and really benefit from high micromanagement in combat scenarios.
And if you're going DT's against an early robo you'll have a wave of DT's the same time your opponent is getting his first colossus, which is slow. While your dt's are not there MIGHT be a timing push there where colossus are just not viable in low numbers compared to the DT's high...
brb testing.
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On October 05 2010 21:02 Wayem wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 20:43 Achilles wrote:On October 05 2010 20:24 Kelorienne wrote:
Good strategies don't revolve around sneaky tactics. Clearly revolve around button mashing better than your opponent. You clearly don't understand the game. Having a good strategy is different from "button mashing better than your opponent". Sneaky tactics can be a good addition to the gameplay but basing everything around them is the worst thing to do (that's what bronze players do).
Yes, because no BW pro ever abused dark templar on a massive scale in every matchup. Different game, I know, but its not like there's no place for sneaky strategies in SC2.
Every time you place marines to kill overlords coming into your base, every time you chase a scout, every time you place a building somewhat away from your main/nat, you do that precisely to misdirect your opponent. Also known as: sneaky play.
(Hint: its much more constructive to criticize the technical viability of the strategy than to spout your own version of ~internet spacegame honour~)
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Canada9720 Posts
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