I don't understand why people use this term. The vast majority are not Korean, or even in Korea.
The term in itself sounds condescending or at the very least creates an unhealthy (us and them) dichotomy that makes no sense. Perhaps in Korean language the term does not have the same connotations (although i'm confident it does), but in English it makes no sense whatsoever for a guy from new york to call a guy from california a foreigner.
btw for those who somehow don't know, foreigner means: a person not native to or naturalized in the country or jurisdiction under consideration.
The country or jurisdiction under consideration (with regards to talking about starcraft) is not Korea lol its a global game played on the internet.
In sum, stop trying to sound like Koreans by saying everyone not from Korea is a 'foreigner'. You don't sound cool and it doesn't even make sense.
It originated from BW, with Korea being the central hub for it. SC2 is definitely a lot more global of a game so far, but the term has trickled in from BW, so yeah.
As mentioned before, it's a broodwar term used by fans outside of korea following e-sports there. I'm pretty sure it just stuck with the transition to sc2. But I guess it must sound strange since the term is a bit misplaced when you don't have the full picture of why it's used the way it is.
Its only really used in reference to games in Korea. When people were at the ESL in germany no one talked about foreigners. I have no problem with it when it is used to describe a non-korean in a korea league
now what you gonna do? force people to stop using the word "foreigner"? and what if they dont listen? (cause they wont)
I cant understand people beeing upset by stuff like this... maybe you are just too new to the scene? just like the guys beeing upset because people keep talking about "tiers" and not using the right plural for colossus. dont be such a *insert random flame* about it
Oh boy, another young gun that went straight to SC2 without BW. This is all from BW, the Koreans dominated BW, and if any non-korean became pro, they would be called a "foreigner" because what else would you call them? Would you go like, well that german has very good macro, or that Mexican is good at micro? No, you just call them foreigners because you can't memorize all the foreign player's countries especially when they don't make a difference in the pro scene. In Canda, your country, what would you call a group of people that were German, Irish, Japanese, and Spainish? You call them foreigners.
And its not like foreigners are dominating SC2. Only 1 foreigner TLO is left in the GSL out of like 30 now
The word doesn't have the negative connotation in Korean like it does in English, and like it was explained above, everything that happens really big in Starcraft happens in South Korea.
By your own definition of a foreigner, where is the country/jurisdiction under consideration when we are talking about starcraft? Since you seem to have joined the community post-scbw, ill explain.
If you have watched that short clip, perhaps you would know why Korea is the "country under consideration" when we talk about Starcraft or even eSports in general. Korea is the home of eSports, so if you aren't from home, but youre talking about eSports, then you are foreign.
Read or Reread this and maybe now itll all come together
On September 17 2010 04:33 Tropics wrote: a person not native to or naturalized in the country or jurisdiction under consideration.
in this context starcraft is the jurisdiction, you literally posted the reason it happens when questioning why it happens
What? this makes no sense. Then everyone, koreans included would be a foreigner. Nobody lives in starcraft. lol. My point is that nobody is a foreigner since it is not a valid jurisdiction. Its a nonsensical statement to make.
The main reason I have a problem with it though (cause lots of nonsensical things don't really bother me all that much), is that it creates this "we are different from them" dichotomy that is not healthy. If you think about it as starcraft nerds you probably have a lot more in common with a random progamer than you do with your neighbour.
We're all one man peace and love and so on. No need to create and support made-up divides between two like "groups".
Edit: the whole point is why even point it out? When a Japanese baseball player comes to pitch in the Major Leagues the announcers don't say "foreigner pitcher so and so". They don't call spanish basketball players foreigner ballers lol. You see the place in which the sport is most popular doesn't need to have any control over the use of foreigner like this. Its obviously a term adopted from Korean to English that makes no sense to use in the majority of contexts it is used.
listen, SC has been around for a while. since the vast majority of the top BW players were korean, players like Nony entering Korea to play SC were considered "foreigners". you went to korea if you were good and to the koreans you were a "foreigner". since TL's attitude was so influenced by the prevailing attitudes in the professional SC circuit in korea it stuck on here as well.
in sum, stop trying to sound like a wronged individual by saying that it doesn't make sense. the official TL clock is in KST, TLPD lists korean names, you are given a star if you can translate korean articles. there is a great deal of korean influence on this site, stop crying.
i came from bw and this term felt right cuz koreans were way better than "foreigners"
but in sc2 i believe if all the top "foreigners" played in the GSL i believe it would be "foreigners" that make up half of the round of 64.
so i dont like the term anymore because it makes it sound like koreans are better in sc2 also which isnt true. i think its about the same. look at most the big foreigners who joined it, made it. tlo, idra, torch?, artosis. imagine morrow, dimaga, kiwi, sen, etc was playing in it.
I agree with the original post. I was not in the Brood War scene so some people might jump down my throat for admitting I don't like it, but this is just how I feel. Nobody is crying about this, but it seems like it would make more sense to say non-Korean instead. But the term seems to be heavily used already and probably won't be changed. That's okay, I don't like it but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.
On September 17 2010 04:33 Tropics wrote: a person not native to or naturalized in the country or jurisdiction under consideration.
in this context starcraft is the jurisdiction, you literally posted the reason it happens when questioning why it happens
What? this makes no sense. Then everyone, koreans included would be a foreigner. Nobody lives in starcraft. lol. My point is that nobody is a foreigner since it is not a valid jurisdiction. Its a nonsensical statement to make.
The main reason I have a problem with it though (cause lots of nonsensical things don't really bother me all that much), is that it creates this "we are different from them" dichotomy that is not healthy. If you think about it as starcraft nerds you probably have a lot more in common with a random progamer than you do with your neighbour.
We're all one man peace and love and so on. No need to create and support made-up divides between two like "groups".
Edit: the whole point is why even point it out? When a Japanese baseball player comes to pitch in the Major Leagues the announcers don't say "foreigner pitcher so and so". They don't call spanish basketball players foreigner ballers lol. You see the place in which the sport is most popular doesn't need to have any control over the use of foreigner like this. Its obviously a term adopted from Korean to English that makes no sense to use in the majority of contexts it is used.
The reason they don't do that in other sports is that they have many more foreign players than Starcraft has
On September 17 2010 04:33 Tropics wrote: a person not native to or naturalized in the country or jurisdiction under consideration.
in this context starcraft is the jurisdiction, you literally posted the reason it happens when questioning why it happens
What? this makes no sense. Then everyone, koreans included would be a foreigner. Nobody lives in starcraft. lol. My point is that nobody is a foreigner since it is not a valid jurisdiction. Its a nonsensical statement to make.
The main reason I have a problem with it though (cause lots of nonsensical things don't really bother me all that much), is that it creates this "we are different from them" dichotomy that is not healthy. If you think about it as starcraft nerds you probably have a lot more in common with a random progamer than you do with your neighbour.
We're all one man peace and love and so on. No need to create and support made-up divides between two like "groups".
Reading comprehension, dude. It makes perfect sense.
Here, I'll put brackets around the different components of the sentence to make it clearer:
[a person not native to or naturalized in] [the country or jurisdiction] [under consideration.]
i.e. A person who does not come from the place that we are talking about. In this case, we're talking about Starcraft and e-Sports, whose home is South Korea. Therefore, if you're not from South Korea, and we're referring to a non-Korean in the context of Starcraft, then you are, by definition, a foreigner.
If you go to a foreign country and speak to the locals, you'd refer to yourself as a foreigner too, wouldn't you? Someone would call himself "American" or "German" or what have you, in effect calling himself a foreigner.
I really don't mind being referred to as a foreigner. Korea is and will (at least for a couple of years) be the mecca of esports, especially starcraft. so it's ok to call every on-korean gamers "foreigners"
at least i'm used to it by SC:BW, so it doesn't bother me at all. I really don't understand why this troubles you so much...
On September 17 2010 04:43 Fa1nT wrote: A Japanese comes to America and rapes them in super street fighter 4, and everyone loves the Japanese guy (daigo)
An American goes to korea, and koreans dislike him for being a foreigner?
Because it's expected that the Japanese dude rapes Americans in SF4? It's not expected that a foreigner beats Koreans in Starcraft.
On September 17 2010 04:43 AirbladeOrange wrote: I agree with the original post. I was not in the Brood War scene so some people might jump down my throat for admitting I don't like it, but this is just how I feel. Nobody is crying about this, but it seems like it would make more sense to say non-Korean instead. But the term seems to be heavily used already and probably won't be changed. That's okay, I don't like it but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.
Hey man nobody's losing sleep over it. Just thought I should point it out after Tasteless mentioned something about using non-korean instead of foreigner during one of the GSL casts. It just made a lot of sense to me, even though he still occasionally uses foreigner (and stasis.... and dragoon... and sunken when casting sc2 lol)
On September 17 2010 04:27 Reason.SC2 wrote: I don't understand why people use this term. The vast majority are not Korean, or even in Korea.
The term in itself sounds condescending or at the very least creates an unhealthy (us and them) dichotomy that makes no sense. Perhaps in Korean language the term does not have the same connotations (although i'm confident it does), but in English it makes no sense whatsoever for a guy from new york to call a guy from california a foreigner.
btw for those who somehow don't know, foreigner means: a person not native to or naturalized in the country or jurisdiction under consideration.
The country or jurisdiction under consideration (with regards to talking about starcraft) is not Korea lol its a global game played on the internet.
In sum, stop trying to sound like Koreans by saying everyone not from Korea is a 'foreigner'. You don't sound cool and it doesn't even make sense.
Silly people who joined in 2010 not understanding shit.
Doth thine anger be to the point in which one would call thee upset?
On September 17 2010 04:33 Tropics wrote: a person not native to or naturalized in the country or jurisdiction under consideration.
in this context starcraft is the jurisdiction, you literally posted the reason it happens when questioning why it happens
What? this makes no sense. Then everyone, koreans included would be a foreigner. Nobody lives in starcraft. lol. My point is that nobody is a foreigner since it is not a valid jurisdiction. Its a nonsensical statement to make.
The main reason I have a problem with it though (cause lots of nonsensical things don't really bother me all that much), is that it creates this "we are different from them" dichotomy that is not healthy. If you think about it as starcraft nerds you probably have a lot more in common with a random progamer than you do with your neighbour.
We're all one man peace and love and so on. No need to create and support made-up divides between two like "groups".
Edit: the whole point is why even point it out? When a Japanese baseball player comes to pitch in the Major Leagues the announcers don't say "foreigner pitcher so and so". They don't call spanish basketball players foreigner ballers lol. You see the place in which the sport is most popular doesn't need to have any control over the use of foreigner like this. Its obviously a term adopted from Korean to English that makes no sense to use in the majority of contexts it is used.
Because when people when talked about Brood War there was a vast difference in skill levels between pro Koreans and pro Foreigners. Instead of saying "non-Korean" everytime we wanted to reference someone else, we would say "foreigner." It's not meant to be offensive, it was just a term used to distinguish the two Starcraft scenes (Korea scene, Everywhere else scene). Also, it's a lot easier to just say "foreigner" rather than knowing exactly what country everyone is from
The term may more may not slowly disappear from the SC2 scene, it depends how the pro-scene develops most likely.
On a different note, I am not offended by the term of "foreigner". In the SC1 scene, I am a foreigner. Who knows if SC2 will change some of these terms.
It's just the term that came up. Sure the meaning could be twisted in translation slightly, but I've never picked up a negative connotation from the word.
On September 17 2010 05:09 Kibibit wrote: I don't really get why people throw semantics at the colloquialisms of a 10 year old community. It's pointless, and in its time it made sense.
Every industry has it's own form of vernacular. Many words take on different meanings in different jobs or settings. Starcraft is no different. The term foreigner simply means those not in the korean scene. Also, it makes sense in that 1 nation (korea) has all of the good players, and then the rest are divided up among the globe. It seems more notable to say that the 1-2 good players from each country are foreigners, when compared to the 10,000 good players from 1 nation (korea)
I understand where you're coming from, but it is a term that has been constituted by this community a long time before you or I made our first post.
It is a harmless term, which does nothing to create tension between the Korean and Foreign communities. When you understand that there are factors (wars, economic tensions, cultural stereotypes, etc.) existing outside of Starcraft which collectively form the major determinant in the way Koreans see everyone else (and vice versa), it is easy to see that this quirky term does very little, relatively, to create real animosity between real people. It simply isn't an issue. It only carries a negative connotation because probability says you will get your ass kicked if you're from outside Korea ha.
On September 17 2010 04:43 Fa1nT wrote: A Japanese comes to America and rapes them in super street fighter 4, and everyone loves the Japanese guy (daigo)
An American goes to korea, and koreans dislike him for being a foreigner?
why do you think its dislike?
they are just classified as foreigner cause they are exactly that. its not racist towards the person at all :/
On September 17 2010 04:43 Fa1nT wrote: A Japanese comes to America and rapes them in super street fighter 4, and everyone loves the Japanese guy (daigo)
An American goes to korea, and koreans dislike him for being a foreigner?
Actually if you were here when BW was popular you would know this was wrong
WHen foreigners went over there, the koreans gave them much respect. Koreans treat their guests very well. The only reason why they wouldnt get treated well is if they were B teamers, and even korean b teamers get treated bad. Thats not being racist on foreigners
Just like Liquid' and oGs (I think thats the name..)
Liquid' has said multiple times how nice the oGs people are to them and how hospitable they are
Same concept that the smarty pants in the manner thread skimmed by. Words take on new meanings over time. Perhaps not correct in the formal sense, but understood by the community that uses it.
I really hate these threads where people that come from outside the Starcraft scene and try to question the lingo that is used in it. Really what you're doing here is taking the word, ignoring the context of it and pointing out how it doesn't make sense... if you don't follow professional Starcraft.
It's just the lingo in the Starcraft community. And it's not even one that's meant to be derogatory.
Next threads: "Don't call it 'Cheese' Anymore. Call it 'Early Game All-In' " and "Stop yelling 'TLO Fighting!' You're not Korean enough to say it, especially with a Korean accent!"
Starcraft was made by Blizzard, an American company. If anything Koreans are the foreigners playing an American game with English voices, white characters and ZERO Asians. I just think of it as US, Europe, and Korea tbh though. I don't care if Koreans started E-sports or are better at the game its still our game.
Its pretty BM to call people foreigners.
And yeh foreigner is negative just like if you called them aliens. Nobody likes foreigners they cause much inconvenience and irritation. If you say you like foreigners you are a liar because it doesn't matter who you are they will cause irritation and stress esp if they don't integrate and refuse to learn the language. I mean lets take it a step further, who thinks TOURISTS are annoying and they can be from the same State. Amiright? Foreigners are like permanent tourists that spread to where you are everyday and don't just stay in the tourist areas.
It's StarCraft culture now. It's a term that's been used because eSports have a strong foundation in Korea, not in the Western world.
Geez, why are all these threads popping up suddenly ?
First the one about 'manner', then the one about Koreans "horrified" by BM, and now we have a thread about the term 'foreigner'? Which one is next today? I'm going to guess... Hm. I don't have a good guess.
Edit:
On September 17 2010 05:53 blitzkrieger wrote: Starcraft was made by Blizzard, an American company. If anything Koreans are the foreigners playing an American game with English voices, white characters and ZERO Asians. I just think of it as US, Europe, and Korea tbh though. I don't care if Koreans started E-sports or are better at the game its still our game.
Its pretty BM to call people foreigners.
And yeh foreigner is negative just like if you called them aliens. Nobody likes foreigners they cause much inconvenience and irritation. If you say you like foreigners you are a liar because it doesn't matter who you are they will cause irritation and stress esp if they don't integrate and refuse to learn the language. I mean lets take it a step further, who thinks TOURISTS are annoying and they can be from the same State. Amiright? Foreigners are like permanent tourists that spread to where you are everyday and don't just stay in the tourist areas.
...Wow..
I think you're an irritating alien to this community.
On September 17 2010 05:53 blitzkrieger wrote: Starcraft was made by Blizzard, an American company. If anything Koreans are the foreigners playing an American game with English voices, white characters and ZERO Asians. I just think of it as US, Europe, and Korea tbh though. I don't care if Koreans started E-sports or are better at the game its still our game.
Its pretty BM to call people foreigners.
And yeh foreigner is negative just like if you called them aliens. Nobody likes foreigners they cause much inconvenience and irritation. If you say you like foreigners you are a liar because it doesn't matter who you are they will cause irritation and stress esp if they don't integrate and refuse to learn the language. I mean lets take it a step further, who thinks TOURISTS are annoying and they can be from the same State. Amiright? Foreigners are like permanent tourists that spread to where you are everyday and don't just stay in the tourist areas.
I am a foreigner living in a country outside my original home country, so thanks for that great post. I bet you have a lot of foreign friends.
It's funny how you also said "it's pretty BM to call people foreigners" in the same post.
As blitzkrieger clearly showed us, the people who have problems with the term "foreigner" are primarily the people who view the term in a negative light. He hates foreigners because he is a racist douche so he also hates being called by the same term. Meanwhile, for others, "foreigner" is a just a term, so they're fine with it.
First the one about 'manner', then the one about Koreans "horrified" by BM, and now we have a thread about the term 'foreigner'? Which one is next today? I'm going to guess... Hm. I don't have a good guess.
"Should Koreans be banned from SC?" would be my guess =\
Seems like you're making something out of nothing. This lingo has been around for years now, vast majority of the community had no problem with it. It is actually nice to have that everyone against Korea mentality.
it's BW history, and no reasonable person has had a problem with it until now, so who cares? just drop it. there's nothing to it until you make something to it.
Hey man nobody's losing sleep over it. Just thought I should point it out after Tasteless mentioned something about using non-korean instead of foreigner during one of the GSL casts. It just made a lot of sense to me, even though he still occasionally uses foreigner (and stasis.... and dragoon... and sunken when casting sc2 lol)
I watched the same cast, you understood it wrong. this was in context of them not being koreans. so it is technically wrong from their perspective. this was NOT because the word is demeaning or insulting in any sense.
i wont stop call it foreigner, its nice word and im used to it. u got foreigners and koreans, thats the way it is and always has been with sc ^^ korea deserve to be the core of sc after all they done~ if we manage to get better at them then we can talk about it^^
On September 17 2010 05:53 blitzkrieger wrote: Starcraft was made by Blizzard, an American company. If anything Koreans are the foreigners playing an American game with English voices, white characters and ZERO Asians. I just think of it as US, Europe, and Korea tbh though. I don't care if Koreans started E-sports or are better at the game its still our game.
Its pretty BM to call people foreigners.
And yeh foreigner is negative just like if you called them aliens. Nobody likes foreigners they cause much inconvenience and irritation. If you say you like foreigners you are a liar because it doesn't matter who you are they will cause irritation and stress esp if they don't integrate and refuse to learn the language. I mean lets take it a step further, who thinks TOURISTS are annoying and they can be from the same State. Amiright? Foreigners are like permanent tourists that spread to where you are everyday and don't just stay in the tourist areas.
lol, when you think that you have read everything, somebody appears with this kind of post.
EPT
