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I don't disagree that having high APM is extremely important, but it is true APM (which can't be measured) that needs to be high. Your true APM is not what is listed on the APM counter. If someone is far more efficient and effective with fewer commands than a spamming retard: he may be playing at 30-40APM and winning meanwhile his opponent is at 150 APM and losing.
Some players click once or twice to issue a command, while others click 10-20 times.
Some players push a hotkey, then hold the shiftkey to put down mutiple structures meanwhile other players hit the hotkey 10 times for 10 structures.
Yes its good to get in the habit to be able to do many things at once, and for some spamming helps them get in the zone for the mid and late game where you do need to have a decently high true APM. Just remember that efficiency beats spam, and it is your true APM that will improve your game, not listed APM which is complete garbage.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
Spam is uber efficiency so you can t really avoid high APM or spamming if you are indeed a good player. I think... But there are also different levels of spam so the subject is really relative to discuss.
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30-40 is too low anyways even in sc2. Maybe a normal APM wouyld be around 70-80 i think.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On July 10 2010 04:50 Mesha wrote:
Spam is uber efficiency so you can t really avoid high APM or spamming if you are indeed a good player. I think... But there are also different levels of spam so the subject is really relative to discuss.
Highly disagree with this. Spamming is in no way efficient. As long as you are able to perform all the actions you need to, anything else is redundant.
Only problem is, if you have really low APM, if you are unable to crank up the speed when it comes to microing, macroing, and multitasking at the same time, then you aren't being efficient.
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white-ra claims 120apm average sc2
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One thing to point out, is warm-ups before the actual game.
Those so-called spamming moves made early on, are what you would account for in stretches in sports.
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I heard Moo has a very low APM.
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Clearly the pro-est thing would be to own Jaedong with 40 apm. It's not going to happen. It is hard to get fast apm. It is much harder to then maintain the same win ratio and greatly reduce your apm. To me, low apm is of little use without the win/loss ratio. Although most of the time it implies newness.
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How many APM threads do we need?
Axlav's APM is insanely low at times, he only clicks when he needs to. He can have 0-20 APM early game. Still, he manages well.
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As your macro/micro skill increases, so does your apm, not the other way around.
On the other hand, backing this up with a proper strategy is half the fight.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
I think there's a certain minimum limit for achieving maximal efficiency. Past that certain point, everything else is just a bunch of spam. However, the faster you are, the more efficient you'll be at multitasking.
For example, we see that Stork at 250 APM has no problem against any other BW players, even those like JD who play at 400-500 APM.
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That is a good point, there is definitely a hard minimum below which you are clearly underperforming, and that minimum depends on race and how many units/building you have at the time.
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On July 10 2010 04:51 Baha wrote:
30-40 is too low anyways even in sc2. Maybe a normal APM wouyld be around 70-80 i think.
Still kind of low. There is a lot of shit to do... I'd say around 110-150 to be fully efficient.
I average around 130 with zerg, 120 with protoss, 110 with Terran and I don't spam, although I might not be the most efficient player with spawning larva / generating creep, I still find that if I were a little faster I could be doing a lot more.
A quick, rough (really rough) analysis:
you can cast about 3 chrono boosts a minute (rounded off to 3 for simplicities sake). During middle game, If you have three nexii, for each Cb session:
all nexii hotkey 0 (1 action)
chrono boost + select target x3 (6 actions)
build / upgrade from CB building (3 actions)
10 actions total just to chrono boost during one session from 3 nexii and you can do this ~ 3 times
So we're looking at 30 APM just chrono-boosting things. While its nearly impossible to keep up with CB's, 80 apm is no where near enough to keep up with each races macro mechanic & be effective on the battlefield.
on the other hand, keeping up with CB & MULEs only marginally increases your edge against the opponent, so differentials in APM aren't tiered as they were in BW. An 80 apm vs 120 apm player in SC2 is definitely noticeable, but not so noticeable that he 80 apm guy doesn't have a chance.
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On July 10 2010 04:56 Me0w wrote:
I heard Moo has a very low APM.
I watched alot of CGM replays early in beta, if i remember right it was in the 80-100 range. So while lower than some might have suspected during his early beta success, it wasn't SHOCKINGLY low.
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Fair enough with this discussion in SC:BW threads, people in the 120-170 range could just about keep up if they were very smart, as a lot of the 200-300 apm players were spamming a lot. That said, I'm don't believe they can keep up with the mechanics of todays flash/jaedong (like, what, 400 apm?) level mechanics for a second. [Given example was stork, not known for really good mechanics IIRC and he played protoss, also not known for high APM. Compared to terran, although iloveoov was the exception with apm he also was noted to have idle scvs around and messy building placement]
But with mechanics a lot more clear cut in sc2, it doesn't mean we can just divide by 3, people. 40 apm? Thats 2 clicks every 3 seconds? I was probably doing more than that in wc2 when I was a kid. If you only do that much you don't have a clear grasp of all the things you need to do.
Also CGM played people in the beta who had the game for 1 week max, when he was there during the whole development. That just gives you an insane advantage.
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On July 10 2010 04:53 JiYan wrote:
white-ra claims 120apm average sc2
White-Ra claims correctly as verified through myself when viewed through many of his replays (Parsed APM via GEARS, not Blizzard's broken-ass "game time" ~0.75x APM.)
Of course any good player will spike upwards during battle.
Also, anybody on the old patch, watch a TLO replay.
I was surprised how low his APM was, because he was doing incredibly well.
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Didint Travis beat the marine who had like 300 apm, while he had like 80apm during team liquid tour lol? So it can happen
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Didint Travis beat the marine who had like 300 apm, while he had like 80apm during team liquid tour lol? So it can happen
I remember beating a guy on USEast called "exalted" with his friend obing [Not sure if it was the TL guy] ZvT on Luna. At one point I infested his mineral only CC and used infested terrans. He was NOT good and he had 400 apm. I was definitely like iccup (current, because I was higher on PGTour obviously skills have improved) D or D- rank at the time and just went 3 hatch muta into 4 gas with lots of shit. I probably had about 120 apm.
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If someone has perfect macro they should be at 90-150 APM just as a matter of fact of how many actions it takes to maintain that macro.
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40-50 APM is not low as an average. You can play the first 5 minutes of the game with perfect macro with 20 APM, then progress to 150APM by mid to end game and avg it out as 50.
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I really don't think a high APM is needed during the start of the game and believe you can do well with an average of 30-50 APM. A much higher APM is only needed during battle or once you have many bases to look after. I usually average around 40 APMs in my games and have always been in Platinum/Diamond consistently beating players with 100+ APM.
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On July 10 2010 05:49 Aardvark wrote:
I really don't think a high APM is needed during the start of the game and believe you can do well with an average of 30-50 APM. A much higher APM is only needed during battle or once you have many bases to look after. I usually average around 40 APMs in my games and have always been in Platinum/Diamond consistently beating players with 100+ APM.
Same here, I have about 5 APM in the first minute of the game. It ramps up to about 50 midgame and about 80 lategame, but my average is always around 50. And Im winning almost all my games in diamond against people who are avging 150 apm.
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theres nothing wrong with high apm, there is something wrong with 40 apm.
better to get into the habit, because at 40 apm you can't even keep your scouting worker alive, micro it and macro your buildings at the same time. this is like 2 minutes into the game
saying stuff like "i win against 150 apm ez im 40 apm" doesn't really matter, there are tons of variables. it could be stuff like" lol i went 4 gate he didn't scout and he just died" well that's cuz he didn't make spine crawlers, not because you use more effective apm then him. apm doesn't contribute to strategy, timing, or build orders, it's for macro and micro.
once you get 3 bases going you need quite of bit of apm to sustain. if you're on 1 base then it isn't really difficult anyways.
my personal view is that people who are better to me just happen to have better apm, so that means apm doesn't hurt. why not increase it and macro harder?
it's like saying yea we totally beat their basketball team even though they have more tall guys
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This is like when Oldy beat Nal_keke with 110 apm and everyone was like "you don't need high APM to be good" then it turned out he hacked.
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low apm just means you play terran.
lolwhat.
but seriously, it's definitely more important to be efficient with it, but once you reach a point where you ARE efficient with it, then the only thing you can do is to be faster and maintain that efficiency. speed DOES matter, but don't let APM be the only indicator of skill. you could spam nothing but lings and micro them forever and have a large apm because of that, but if the other dude sets up a control group of tanks behind a wall, he could literally have 0 apm and sit well - though that's an extreme case, i think the point has been made.
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On July 10 2010 05:53 shawster wrote:
theres nothing wrong with high apm, there is something wrong with 40 apm.
better to get into the habit, because at 40 apm you can't even keep your scouting worker alive, micro it and macro your buildings at the same time. this is like 2 minutes into the game
Maybe the APM counter is wrong. I have good macro/micro. My unspent resources remain low even during heavy battles. My APM is always avg at about 50, although it does spike over 100 when it needs to. This is largely because I click once or twice to do something, not 30 times. I also use shift alot instead of pressing the hotkey 10 times.
Would I be a better play if my APM was 70? Yes... but only if I had the same level of efficiency that I do now. If the higher APM was simply the result of extra unneeded commands than it is worthless.
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Spamming can indeed be effective in sc1 for me it was always 121212323232343434343 to check which group has free slots to fill with units and that is the fastest way to compare and thats what most ppl would call spam and it looks like spam when its not really same goes kinda for sc2
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My APM is ridiculously slow (average of ~35-40, ~15-20 early game and peaks of ~90 on the heat of battle), no spams at all, I'm a Diamond Terran player and I though that this APM ratio would naturaly improve with time, but no... I use to play a lot and the APM is still the same as ever and I really don't need more than this.
Although I'm a casual player, I do realize that a higher APM is good for competitive levels, but not THAT essential as people use to say.
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On July 10 2010 05:58 Sabresandiego wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2010 05:53 shawster wrote:
theres nothing wrong with high apm, there is something wrong with 40 apm.
better to get into the habit, because at 40 apm you can't even keep your scouting worker alive, micro it and macro your buildings at the same time. this is like 2 minutes into the game Maybe the APM counter is wrong. I have good macro/micro. My unspent resources remain low even during heavy battles. My APM is always avg at about 50, although it does spike over 100 when it needs to. This is largely because I click once or twice to do something, not 30 times. I also use shift alot instead of pressing the hotkey 10 times.
you can't macro 3 bases on 50 apm while using queen/chrono boost energy efficiently or while spreading creep
we can all improve some way, and getting more apm to do more things is part of it
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On July 10 2010 06:00 shawster wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2010 05:58 Sabresandiego wrote:On July 10 2010 05:53 shawster wrote:
theres nothing wrong with high apm, there is something wrong with 40 apm.
better to get into the habit, because at 40 apm you can't even keep your scouting worker alive, micro it and macro your buildings at the same time. this is like 2 minutes into the game Maybe the APM counter is wrong. I have good macro/micro. My unspent resources remain low even during heavy battles. My APM is always avg at about 50, although it does spike over 100 when it needs to. This is largely because I click once or twice to do something, not 30 times. I also use shift alot instead of pressing the hotkey 10 times. you can't macro 3 bases on 50 apm while using queen/chrono boost energy efficiently or while spreading creep we can all improve some way, and getting more apm to do more things is part of it
More APM is good, ofcourse. But not if it is spam APM. It has to be real, effective APM.
Even the pros spam, mainly as a mental warmup for the mid and late game. This has the effect of artificially inflating APM. When regular players try to mimic them you often end up with people spamming around high APM that is meaningless, and they could have accomplished the same thing with 1/3rd of the APM.
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On July 10 2010 06:01 Sabresandiego wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2010 06:00 shawster wrote:On July 10 2010 05:58 Sabresandiego wrote:On July 10 2010 05:53 shawster wrote:
theres nothing wrong with high apm, there is something wrong with 40 apm.
better to get into the habit, because at 40 apm you can't even keep your scouting worker alive, micro it and macro your buildings at the same time. this is like 2 minutes into the game Maybe the APM counter is wrong. I have good macro/micro. My unspent resources remain low even during heavy battles. My APM is always avg at about 50, although it does spike over 100 when it needs to. This is largely because I click once or twice to do something, not 30 times. I also use shift alot instead of pressing the hotkey 10 times. you can't macro 3 bases on 50 apm while using queen/chrono boost energy efficiently or while spreading creep we can all improve some way, and getting more apm to do more things is part of it More APM is good, ofcourse. But not if it is spam APM. It has to be real, effective APM.
and a good way to increase effective apm is having more apm.you can' thave 50 effective apm with 40 apm
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On July 10 2010 05:06 Roffles wrote:
I think there's a certain minimum limit for achieving maximal efficiency. Past that certain point, everything else is just a bunch of spam. However, the faster you are, the more efficient you'll be at multitasking.
For example, we see that Stork at 250 APM has no problem against any other BW players, even those like JD who play at 400-500 APM.
but... stork is protoss.
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Example.
Player 1 wants to build 3 supply depots. He uses hotkeys: click scv in mineral line, push build hotkey, push depot hotkey, place depot click ground, click scv when building is complete, click minerals. multiply actions by 3 scv's = he has performed 18 actions to build 3 depots with 3scv's
Player 2 uses shift. He selects all 3 scv's, pushes build hotkey, pushes depot hotkey, holds shift and places depot on the ground 3 times, continues holding shift and clicks minerals again. he has built 3 depots with 3 SCV's in 7 actions.
Player 2 has performed the same task as player 1 with almost 1/3rd the actions.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Not another APM thread =_=;;
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EPT
