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I'd like to see more than a couple of those, because that's how many games I see terran wins when protoss gets carriers. And Maybe it's just me (But I don't think it is) I more often dominate my protoss opponent on land for most of the game and he looks dead, but when he goes carriers its real difficult to counter - and cliff exp kills just suck since golis are of no help and they're the main counter.
To go wraiths you need to know about carriers in advance - to make enough to kill them and get cloak. And most good protoss players can USUALLY hide carriers where they won't get discovered for a while - often until its too late - even in pro replays I notice the terran player has no idea about the carriers until they show.
Anyhow would anyone please direct me to as many replays of Terran defeating carriers in late game, as possible. Also good tactics would be greatly appreciated. I used to mostly go wraiths when I see carriers but then i was taught that smart players take 3-10 observers with their carrier pack so cloak doesn't really help and just putting wraiths vs carriers is being ripped off. So natural counter for me now is charoned goliaths with hopefully damage upgrades and sometimes EMP. My friend says lockdown rapes carriers... Maybe lockdown rapes carriers but even in pro games I have only seen lockdown used 1 or 2 times vs carriers, and even then not very effeciently. Carriers are real mobile, ghosts are not. Carriers are real tough, ghosts are not. You can't have ghosts everywhere, but carriers can go anywhere. I'm not saying it doesn't work - it CAN work, but its hard as hell to get it to work. So um, here i can't keep my thoughts together anymore, so feedback plz!
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Canada398 Posts
a good terran scans protoss bases constantly when he thinks there is hidden tech about it seems... very rarely can a good p hide carriers vs a good t
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Norway10161 Posts
you should know from his unit count / gateway count
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Welp I lost alot to carrier techs, if you want my advice its all about experience, most of the time you dont have to scan their base to know they are going carriers just look at their numbers. After alot of good stompings it becomes a sixth sense, imo Gols are horrible unless they have their attacks up + charon, stick to the wraiths and clone the ob killing usually works for me.
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Canada5062 Posts
Nada took out Nal_rA's mass carriers with gols last Duel Tournament on Gaema Gowon.
It's not the best example tho cuz Nada went almost all goons and was really lucky Nal_rA didn't (couldn't??) support the carriers with land units like goons/zealots.
In TvP you're probably gonna go metal one way or another. No need to jump to wraiths when you already have facs.
1) Start pumping out gols (if you don't have them yet) as soon as you spot carriers. If you've done your scouting/scanning properly, you should see carriers coming very early - or at least before the opponent's had a chance to mass them and use 'em to the max.
2) Be sure to back the gols with tanks. A vessel or two with emp can always help, tho not essential if you have the right gol/tank combo and your control doesn't screw things up.
3) You also have to be sure you have lots of expansions with mass turret defenses (Xellos and Boxer are excellent examples of this): you'll probably lose more gols/tanks than his carriers, but that's the idea.
4) Finally, be sure you're not letting your opponent's expos grow wild. If posssible, chase his carriers near his expos and tour them while hunting carriers at the same time. A good P may avoid this double trap, but the temptation to find refuge for the carriers at a base somewhere is often irresistible. Once you have them both cornered, gols>carriers, siege>base defense + land units.
Any strat can be countered in this game (that's the beauty of it, right?) - both HIS carriers and YOUR GOL/TANKS. So, it's all about keeping your wits during the game and "putting it all together."
GL.
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I think carriers shows a terran who is passive, cause if u constantly push the p, he never will be get 6+ carriers
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Boxer has done some awesome carrier kills twice that I have seen. One is a little differant because he kills Battlecruisers, but that is almost the same thing. He uses 7 ghosts and lockdowned 7 battlecruisers, then finishes them off with wraiths, but that is near impossable unless you got killer reflexes. Another thing he did was use blind on the obs, and finish a lot of the carriers off with wraiths. But both of those are probably REALLY hard things to pull off, so if you have time try to get some battle cruisers with yamato. Some wraiths and some goliths, with upgraded attack and range.
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if they get mass carriers in the true sense of the word u lost. certainly on medium res land maps like temple.
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MURICA15980 Posts
a way to counter? here:
1. Hit "enter" 2. Hit "GG" 3. Hit "enter" 4. Press "alt q" 5. Hit "q"
GG no re
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Mensrea: I learned a couple of things from what you said but they're common sense though valid points.
Never cloned wraiths to kill observers but it sounds more effective then queuing em.
Rahvin54, yeah yeah i know what boxer did lol, but I'm not even gonna waste time trying to do it against an equal player because it's too damn hard. At least for now. And with cruisers - Yamato is kinda nice vs carriers, but protoss has good ways of dealing with cruisers and the tech branch to cruisers is real expensive and cash is something terran usually can't brag about playing TvP. The least I can say is that usually terran gets less cash than an equal protoss.
B.GoD_AnGRY, I wanna flame you cause from what you're saying, every single pro terran is passive since every single one of them got ownt by carriers more than once.
ToKoreaWithLove, true, but often easier said than done. Also the MAIN problem is dealing with them not finding them. When the numbers are 6+ its real hardship.
Liquid`Crystal, what you said is semi true but biased since I think you most often play toss and you like carriers. I watched many a replay where boxer, nada, odyssay, elky and so on have no clue and 0 preparation for carriers when at least 3, but normally 6+ cans unleash their fury.
And Finally, Klogon, I don't like your solution.
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Oh yeah, if you wanna find lots of replays with terran getting ownt by carriers, get WCG 02 replay pack. A lot of TvPs there end about 2 minutes after terran discovers the yellow monsters.
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MURICA15980 Posts
this prob sound noob, but how do you clone something?
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There's a rep of Nazgul VS sVen I believe where Naz goes Carriers, and sVen goes BCs. This is on Hall of Valhalla (or neo), and sVen ends up winning. It was a really good one, and I suggest it to everyone. This was in a tournament, but I can't recall which.
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Yeah I sure don't blame u for not wanted to blind obs... But I think lockdown would work nicely, even if you only lockdown a few, it would make killing the non-lock downed ones easier. Also I think battlecruisers are the best carrier defence, 2 yamatos kill a carrier. And plus battlecruisers are of course great to have on their own. As you said they do cost a lot, but if you waited until they can get carriers, you should be able to afford them. Only a tad more expensive then carriers. But if you include the cost of intercepters, they are only more expensive in gas.
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Hehe and the next best advice I can give is: Kill the enemy before they go carrier
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i am really confused as to why people dont spend a few hundred gas and a few hunndred crystal to make seince and emp..... i mean 1 shot of well placed emp = 1000 or more damage in shields ... plus you see darkys and obs.... and things on hills not to mention defense matrix .. i mean ive not seen a game that wasnt 100% ownage from the terran that he didnt waste tons and tons of minerals seemingly carelssly .. like 5 vultures going past 15 goons or a few tanks or what not.. thats about the same cost.. as a vessle.. hmm oh well im newb gg! :D
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On January 03 2003 08:54 mensrea wrote: Nada went almost all goons
Again ?
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Netherlands1301 Posts
it's not that hard to scout properly, just make 1 or 2 wraiths and let them scout the map and scan a lot. And if you're about to win, just go goliaths all the way, they're good vs ground forces too so it's the best bet and get lockdown. and of course if you have upgraded properly it's upgraded goliaths vs little upgraded carriers.
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I always build an Armory mid-game and pump a few gols no matter what in TvP because Carriers are such a threat. Plus gols help with other things too, like prevent shuttle drops on your push, and securing the cliff above a Protoss expo.
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Klogon, cloning is what you do with your workers at the start of the game. Select them all, move to one mineral patch, deselect one, move the remaining three to another, deselect another, move the remaining 2 to another, deselect one, move last one to another mineral patch. Or you can also do this by just selecting one at a time and redirecting it, whatever you prefer.
Now, when you substitute workers with wraiths and mineral patch with observers, you'll get what DV8 was talking about.
I also think lockdown or cloacked wraiths are better vs mass carrier then mass gols. Another helpfull thing is, keep making use of your tank/vult force. I often found myself really busy with my goliaths trying to fend of the carriers while having a large tank/vult army standing around idle. This is not a good thing, especially since the toss usually doen't have much of a ground force left when he's gone mass carriers. So if say your natural is under attack by carriers, counter with a vult tank attack on his main or exp(s). He'll either retreat his carriers, or lose a base himself.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Where is the wcg replay Pack? Cuz it didn't work when I tried to dl it from.... asdf I can't remember the name of the site--;;; mytvang or something..
Also 3-3 rine > carrier Boxer vs Spunky@remote outpost. And I did it vs a friend. Made him waste 6k on interceptors. Also valkyries = really good vs carrier.
Regards FrozenArbiter
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Watch NTT vs Garimto on Valhalla... NTT beats carriers with BC Watch NTT vs Smuft on NNWO... NTT does same thing as he did Vs Garimto but smuft owns the BC's with Scouts...
Imo, tho BC's are kinda useless vs Toss since storm, goon and scout are all very effective counters against them. BC's can be good on islands vs toss but not on Land maps. :7
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best thing vs. mass carriers i think: mass gols + tank drop on expo(or somewhere)
this is on temple tho, and haven't tried on any other maps
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once cloaked wraith worked well but nowdays everyone seems to be prepared by either moving their carriers only around a large amount of cannons or just sending some goon/obs with them. I never did too well vs carriers when i played terran but from my experiences a good way is too push as fast as possible with tanks/turrets while making only upgraded gols and maybe lockdown. Lockdown all of his carriers or most of them is kinda impossible, so try to send a few gols at the carriers and while they are fighting clone lockdown from somewhere near witth cloaked ghosts. Lockdown should only be used vs 10+ carriers because at that time he cant have too many ground units. Otherwise tanks/gols+ turrets works better because gols only are too weak vs ground units and p will often switch back to ground when he got ~6 carriers
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Valks are good vs carriers? Can't be man, base armor for carriers already almost nullifies the valks attack since it does so few damage per missile. (4 base armor and 6 damage per missile is 2 damage left?)
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Sweden33719 Posts
-- I am talking about interceptor killing ^_______^ They are quite OK as long as they can maintain 2:1 ratio at least. I remember from my semi early bw days how my bw teacher used 14 valks to defeat 7 carriers (and I focus fired) and still he had 3 valks left--;;;
Regards FrozenArbiter
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Drone and Infinity basically said all that should be said about it,make dual upgrades early,save some gas,and just ammass tanks/vults/gollies/GHOSTS vs zeals/goons/carriers and protect expos with mass turrets.If he goes carrier rush you should consider going wraiths. Valks may be useful only to kill corsairs and let the wraiths kill the carriers,but that's mostly for island maps.
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Wouldnt valks in combination with wraiths be a good idea? valks seem to be really good at killing off numerous observers at once.
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Seriously, I pretty much suck, but if a Terran lets me get 6+ carriers, there's virtually no way I will lose. In order to start pumping carriers, the toss will already have to have pretty significant map control already, or else he will die in the process because of lack of ground troops.
If you keep the pressure on as Terran, the toss CAN'T get 6+ carriers without dying unless he's already got the game won.
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Wow, shitorz, Farahgrim has something going there.
Lots of good feedback, thanks.
And people STOP saying I suck because I let protoss get carriers I have seen every SINGLE pro get owned by carriers at least 2 times, so I guess they just suck too?
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Um, nobody said you suck if you let the protoss get carriers...at least I didn't. I just said you've already lost by that point. Pro's lose games. It doens't mean you/they suck. It just means you have to play differently BEFORE you wind up in that predicament.
It's kinda like saying, "In pvz, if the zerg expands all over the map (has 4 expos fully running) and I haven't taken my natural yet, what do I do?"
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ok back to the subject reps?
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Exactly, pic! Aiur, I'm asking how you deal with em mainly, not how you find out about them. So are you saying if protoss gets carriers terran loses? That sounds real unfair. If protoss gets carriers and you dont see them, then you'll lose, but if you know about them, they're still a pain in the ass to deal with so my question is - how do you do it?
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Seriously gols really should be your second option, anyone who has had alot of experience vs mass carriers will tell you gols really have a hard time battling carriers in mass, and I dont mean 6 I mean 12. Gols are really quite crappy since most toss have enough sense not to let their carriers battle out in the open. Besides you also need the ups for gols as well.
I didnt see the match but I can take a guess why NaDa's gols were so effective was cause of Gaema Gowon itself, its a open field type map so gols can really surround them.
so if you have the gas for wraiths go for it youll find it somewhat of a gamble since your timing for observer killing is absolutely vital but I'll tell you one thing the reward is well worth it.
I am too lazy to look for who said it but to who ever said the terran is too passive, you really ought to face some conservative toss because these guys will gain a small econ edge and hold it and if your first wave fails it only gets harder down the line not too mention they will add the carriers to the already strong ground army.
If you want my advice once you fall behind dont push to attack, just push to expo. Play to even things out and hope they dont find a crack in your defense.
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I'm not completely sure about this, but it's something I've considered but haven't tried.
For example, we'll assume Protoss has like 6+ carriers or so and like 5 observers or some other insane amount since wraiths are a threat. What if you used valks to zoom in and nail the observers (usually bunched), then run while bringing in cloaked wraiths. I realize this would take lots of preparation (thus knowing way ahead of time) but perhaps it's a viable way to work through the observer problem...
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Hey Men, Hi 2 all!
Mass Goliafs is what Y0u need!
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On January 05 2003 07:39 Majicou wrote: I'm not completely sure about this, but it's something I've considered but haven't tried.
For example, we'll assume Protoss has like 6+ carriers or so and like 5 observers or some other insane amount since wraiths are a threat. What if you used valks to zoom in and nail the observers (usually bunched), then run while bringing in cloaked wraiths. I realize this would take lots of preparation (thus knowing way ahead of time) but perhaps it's a viable way to work through the observer problem... would adding emp help, or just be a waste of time/money?
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On February 03 2006 15:44 mAx_CoMaNdEr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2003 07:39 Majicou wrote: I'm not completely sure about this, but it's something I've considered but haven't tried.
For example, we'll assume Protoss has like 6+ carriers or so and like 5 observers or some other insane amount since wraiths are a threat. What if you used valks to zoom in and nail the observers (usually bunched), then run while bringing in cloaked wraiths. I realize this would take lots of preparation (thus knowing way ahead of time) but perhaps it's a viable way to work through the observer problem... would adding emp help, or just be a waste of time/money?
I've done that before against 7 carriers with 6-7 obs, but it proved to be wayyyyyyyy too costly later on when he swtiched back to goon/zeal.
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ok i suck. but why no one say that mass goll mixed with ds/goll rox carriars? am i wrong?
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On February 03 2006 15:49 PauL_JoneS wrote: Way to necro~ We need to lock all threads that fall off the first page. If you need to revive a thread just recreate the topic and post a link to it.
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