|
On June 11 2010 22:13 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2010 21:29 Graven wrote:On June 11 2010 06:37 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2010 05:56 Graven wrote:
There was nothing Sheth could have done. And the argument that he should have gone all-in earlier is ridiculous. no single army composition should be unbeatable...especially something as simple to create as mass siege tanks. Oh come on ... Sheth let QXC have free reign of the Skies and with that came his doom. I think IdrA had a match with a TON of Corruptors and just a dash of Brood Lords which he won relatively easily. "There is nothing he could have done" is just the easy way out of trying to think ... thats basically giving up. Dont blame the others if you do that; it was the same with the Marauder builds at the beginning of beta and the upgrade for concussive shell would not really stop anyone from doing exactly the same stuff now; with Stim Pack being cheaper now it is almost the same cost ... but people have figured out how to beat that. Just watch the "TLO vs JinrO" game from Day[9] daily 131. The difference here is that JinrO does NOT use much air, which allows TLO to use his Overlords much more compared to other matches. Air dominance is the key to beating mech and if the Terran is freaking out with TONS of Vikings he will have A LOT less mech units and you could switch to ground really fast and waltz over his few tanks. Its really very very simple, but no one tried it. I havent seen a TvZ yet, where the Zerg had air dominance (mass corruptors and a few Brood Lords) and lost to a mass of mech. The difference in the TLO vs. Jinro game was the map -- there was just too much space for Jinro to try and defend. If Sheth played QXC on Meta, I'd bet on Sheth. And going Corrupters/Brolords at the end wouldn't have mattered -- could he have rushed to them and won? Maybe, maybe not...the problem still remains that an unbeatable army like the one QXC had should not be possible...and if it is, it shouldn't be so easy to achieve. I think another key point is the flexibility for Terran...there's really no way to know exactly what they're doing. You can scout out a Factory, start going air to prep for mass mech, and then face a big ball of MMM (assuming they made the factory just for the Starport. There ability to switch playstyles so quickly should prevent them from creating a final army like that -- currently, they have it both ways, which prevents Zerg from reacting all-in one way or another. To be completely honest, this argument is really silly. I'm finding it impossible to even understand the perspective of someone who doesn't think Terran are OP on many maps right now. Obviously Metalopolis is a rather open map, BUT bottlenecks can help screwing up a Terran mech army too. There are two other differences though: - Jinro has ZERO!!!! Vikings and this leaves TLO with "air dominance" (Overlords) and he uses that to spread creep - TLO attacks in several places at once. Several attack groups of 3 Ultralisks plus maybe a few Speedlings attack Jinros rather spread out positions. Using a drop on one and a small attack force on another base, using 1-2 Infestors with burrowed movement to punish the Terran for not having Turrets / Ravens as detectors and generally spreading creep for maximized Zerg mobility are key tactics of TLO which keep JinrO on the defensive and which eventually lets him GG. The key component is to have air dominance as the Zerg and if you have that you have the Terran on the defensive. If the Terran does the "extreme turtling" he contains himself and you can simply take every other base on the map and wear him down with twice as many resources.
You can't have it both ways. To have air dominance as Zerg takes extreme amount of Vespene and can be countered HARD by Vikings and Thor's (probably the two best AA units in the game); and later Raven's with HSM. Hypotheticaly, if Sheth went mass Muta to start, QXC would have just delayed the Tanks in favor of earlier Vikings and still slowely expanded inching out with turrets.
|
On June 11 2010 06:47 MIKE HUTN EASY wrote:
I agree its completely beatable (terran mech) and all ur solutions make perfect sense except one HUGE problem, to do army drops, vortex', splitting army, burrowing half, doing storms and fungals, all work but it requires an insane amount of micro while the terran just A-moves and seiges thats why its imba, the micro and the fact that u need a perfect unit composition and placement to beat as opposed to just A-moving
i seem to recall that in scbw, terran was considered the most apm intensive race, whether going bio or mech. sc2 is not that much different: leapfrogging tanks to the right position, controlling vikings to maintain air dominance/give sight, positioning thors so that mutas don't flank your tanks, making sure ravens are putting down point defense drones and not getting sniped, using medivacs to get tanks on the high ground, emp-ing with ghosts (against toss)...the list goes on. simply a-moving tanks and pressing e to siege is a good way to lose a hell of a lot of gas quickly.
in scbw, the ways to beat terran mech were also micro-intensive - zealot bombs, mine drags, storms, dark swarms, etc. did people call "IMBA!!1!" when flash dominated toss for a good while with his double armory mech push? no, the others learned to adapt and beat it. and terran mech will evolve to reflect that.
|
United States47024 Posts
On June 11 2010 22:27 n3mo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2010 06:47 MIKE HUTN EASY wrote:
I agree its completely beatable (terran mech) and all ur solutions make perfect sense except one HUGE problem, to do army drops, vortex', splitting army, burrowing half, doing storms and fungals, all work but it requires an insane amount of micro while the terran just A-moves and seiges thats why its imba, the micro and the fact that u need a perfect unit composition and placement to beat as opposed to just A-moving i seem to recall that in scbw, terran was considered the most apm intensive race, whether going bio or mech. sc2 is not that much different: leapfrogging tanks to the right position, controlling vikings to maintain air dominance/give sight, positioning thors so that mutas don't flank your tanks, making sure ravens are putting down point defense drones and not getting sniped, using medivacs to get tanks on the high ground, emp-ing with ghosts (against toss)...the list goes on. simply a-moving tanks and pressing e to siege is a good way to lose a hell of a lot of gas quickly. in scbw, the ways to beat terran mech were also micro-intensive - zealot bombs, mine drags, storms, dark swarms, etc. did people call "IMBA!!1!" when flash dominated toss for a good while with his double armory mech push? no, the others learned to adapt and beat it. and terran mech will evolve to reflect that.
Mech is drastically less APM intensive than in SCBW due to the fact that the stronger tank AI does not punish poor positioning as much. You don't need to stagger your tanks to minimize overkill, and bombs against heavily clustered tanks are not nearly as damaging.
|
On June 11 2010 22:27 n3mo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2010 06:47 MIKE HUTN EASY wrote:
I agree its completely beatable (terran mech) and all ur solutions make perfect sense except one HUGE problem, to do army drops, vortex', splitting army, burrowing half, doing storms and fungals, all work but it requires an insane amount of micro while the terran just A-moves and seiges thats why its imba, the micro and the fact that u need a perfect unit composition and placement to beat as opposed to just A-moving i seem to recall that in scbw, terran was considered the most apm intensive race, whether going bio or mech.
Who gives a flying fuk?
Niether SC1 or APM is relevant in this discussion.
|
On June 11 2010 22:22 Graven wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2010 22:13 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2010 21:29 Graven wrote:On June 11 2010 06:37 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2010 05:56 Graven wrote:
There was nothing Sheth could have done. And the argument that he should have gone all-in earlier is ridiculous. no single army composition should be unbeatable...especially something as simple to create as mass siege tanks. Oh come on ... Sheth let QXC have free reign of the Skies and with that came his doom. I think IdrA had a match with a TON of Corruptors and just a dash of Brood Lords which he won relatively easily. "There is nothing he could have done" is just the easy way out of trying to think ... thats basically giving up. Dont blame the others if you do that; it was the same with the Marauder builds at the beginning of beta and the upgrade for concussive shell would not really stop anyone from doing exactly the same stuff now; with Stim Pack being cheaper now it is almost the same cost ... but people have figured out how to beat that. Just watch the "TLO vs JinrO" game from Day[9] daily 131. The difference here is that JinrO does NOT use much air, which allows TLO to use his Overlords much more compared to other matches. Air dominance is the key to beating mech and if the Terran is freaking out with TONS of Vikings he will have A LOT less mech units and you could switch to ground really fast and waltz over his few tanks. Its really very very simple, but no one tried it. I havent seen a TvZ yet, where the Zerg had air dominance (mass corruptors and a few Brood Lords) and lost to a mass of mech. The difference in the TLO vs. Jinro game was the map -- there was just too much space for Jinro to try and defend. If Sheth played QXC on Meta, I'd bet on Sheth. And going Corrupters/Brolords at the end wouldn't have mattered -- could he have rushed to them and won? Maybe, maybe not...the problem still remains that an unbeatable army like the one QXC had should not be possible...and if it is, it shouldn't be so easy to achieve. I think another key point is the flexibility for Terran...there's really no way to know exactly what they're doing. You can scout out a Factory, start going air to prep for mass mech, and then face a big ball of MMM (assuming they made the factory just for the Starport. There ability to switch playstyles so quickly should prevent them from creating a final army like that -- currently, they have it both ways, which prevents Zerg from reacting all-in one way or another. To be completely honest, this argument is really silly. I'm finding it impossible to even understand the perspective of someone who doesn't think Terran are OP on many maps right now. Obviously Metalopolis is a rather open map, BUT bottlenecks can help screwing up a Terran mech army too. There are two other differences though: - Jinro has ZERO!!!! Vikings and this leaves TLO with "air dominance" (Overlords) and he uses that to spread creep - TLO attacks in several places at once. Several attack groups of 3 Ultralisks plus maybe a few Speedlings attack Jinros rather spread out positions. Using a drop on one and a small attack force on another base, using 1-2 Infestors with burrowed movement to punish the Terran for not having Turrets / Ravens as detectors and generally spreading creep for maximized Zerg mobility are key tactics of TLO which keep JinrO on the defensive and which eventually lets him GG. The key component is to have air dominance as the Zerg and if you have that you have the Terran on the defensive. If the Terran does the "extreme turtling" he contains himself and you can simply take every other base on the map and wear him down with twice as many resources. You can't have it both ways. To have air dominance as Zerg takes extreme amount of Vespene and can be countered HARD by Vikings and Thor's (probably the two best AA units in the game); and later Raven's with HSM. Hypotheticaly, if Sheth went mass Muta to start, QXC would have just delayed the Tanks in favor of earlier Vikings and still slowely expanded inching out with turrets.
Couple things: Vikings SUCK OUT LOUD against mutalisks. They are not a good tradeoff economically for a Terran in the early game when the zerg player working off of 2-3 saturated bases. 100/100 is dirt cheap for how good mutalisks are. Terran can be abused with mutas just like Terran could be abused by mutas in SC1 until the Thor is out. Vespene for Zerg should be much more readily available than for the Terran who is always gas starved and stuck on his main and his natural geysers until you let him have more. Also, overlords need to get sacked every once in a while. You can't build blindly.
You also said terran is the most versatile race by far. I would disagree. Terran buildings, specifically, are the most versatile, but that is out of necessity. Terran has the worst ability of the 3 races to raise a quick army of a needed unit since they need lots of producing structures and all units have build times, so to compensate for this, Blizzard gave them the ability to swap add-ons for easier production.
|
On June 12 2010 07:39 cryostasis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2010 22:22 Graven wrote:On June 11 2010 22:13 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2010 21:29 Graven wrote:On June 11 2010 06:37 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2010 05:56 Graven wrote:
There was nothing Sheth could have done. And the argument that he should have gone all-in earlier is ridiculous. no single army composition should be unbeatable...especially something as simple to create as mass siege tanks. Oh come on ... Sheth let QXC have free reign of the Skies and with that came his doom. I think IdrA had a match with a TON of Corruptors and just a dash of Brood Lords which he won relatively easily. "There is nothing he could have done" is just the easy way out of trying to think ... thats basically giving up. Dont blame the others if you do that; it was the same with the Marauder builds at the beginning of beta and the upgrade for concussive shell would not really stop anyone from doing exactly the same stuff now; with Stim Pack being cheaper now it is almost the same cost ... but people have figured out how to beat that. Just watch the "TLO vs JinrO" game from Day[9] daily 131. The difference here is that JinrO does NOT use much air, which allows TLO to use his Overlords much more compared to other matches. Air dominance is the key to beating mech and if the Terran is freaking out with TONS of Vikings he will have A LOT less mech units and you could switch to ground really fast and waltz over his few tanks. Its really very very simple, but no one tried it. I havent seen a TvZ yet, where the Zerg had air dominance (mass corruptors and a few Brood Lords) and lost to a mass of mech. The difference in the TLO vs. Jinro game was the map -- there was just too much space for Jinro to try and defend. If Sheth played QXC on Meta, I'd bet on Sheth. And going Corrupters/Brolords at the end wouldn't have mattered -- could he have rushed to them and won? Maybe, maybe not...the problem still remains that an unbeatable army like the one QXC had should not be possible...and if it is, it shouldn't be so easy to achieve. I think another key point is the flexibility for Terran...there's really no way to know exactly what they're doing. You can scout out a Factory, start going air to prep for mass mech, and then face a big ball of MMM (assuming they made the factory just for the Starport. There ability to switch playstyles so quickly should prevent them from creating a final army like that -- currently, they have it both ways, which prevents Zerg from reacting all-in one way or another. To be completely honest, this argument is really silly. I'm finding it impossible to even understand the perspective of someone who doesn't think Terran are OP on many maps right now. Obviously Metalopolis is a rather open map, BUT bottlenecks can help screwing up a Terran mech army too. There are two other differences though: - Jinro has ZERO!!!! Vikings and this leaves TLO with "air dominance" (Overlords) and he uses that to spread creep - TLO attacks in several places at once. Several attack groups of 3 Ultralisks plus maybe a few Speedlings attack Jinros rather spread out positions. Using a drop on one and a small attack force on another base, using 1-2 Infestors with burrowed movement to punish the Terran for not having Turrets / Ravens as detectors and generally spreading creep for maximized Zerg mobility are key tactics of TLO which keep JinrO on the defensive and which eventually lets him GG. The key component is to have air dominance as the Zerg and if you have that you have the Terran on the defensive. If the Terran does the "extreme turtling" he contains himself and you can simply take every other base on the map and wear him down with twice as many resources. You can't have it both ways. To have air dominance as Zerg takes extreme amount of Vespene and can be countered HARD by Vikings and Thor's (probably the two best AA units in the game); and later Raven's with HSM. Hypotheticaly, if Sheth went mass Muta to start, QXC would have just delayed the Tanks in favor of earlier Vikings and still slowely expanded inching out with turrets. Couple things: Vikings SUCK OUT LOUD against mutalisks. They are not a good tradeoff economically for a Terran in the early game when the zerg player working off of 2-3 saturated bases. 100/100 is dirt cheap for how good mutalisks are. Terran can be abused with mutas just like Terran could be abused by mutas in SC1 until the Thor is out. Vespene for Zerg should be much more readily available than for the Terran who is always gas starved and stuck on his main and his natural geysers until you let him have more. Also, overlords need to get sacked every once in a while. You can't build blindly. You also said terran is the most versatile race by far. I would disagree. Terran buildings, specifically, are the most versatile, but that is out of necessity. Terran has the worst ability of the 3 races to raise a quick army of a needed unit since they need lots of producing structures and all units have build times, so to compensate for this, Blizzard gave them the ability to swap add-ons for easier production.
While I agree that if it's just mass Muta vs. mass Terran, it's a good spot for Zerg, but it's not that simple. Thors, Ravens and Tower's enter the equation and it's over for Zerg air dominance. As for your Vespene comment, you're just wrong, so I'll assume you haven't played Zerg very much.
As for your versatility comment, I wrote nothing about raising an army quickly. Terran is dead last among the three races in that department...where they're first is.......versatility, haha. The 1/1/1 strat gets them all their needed tech immediately in a game, allowing them to go in any direction at any time. For Zerg and Protoss, they need to invest heavily in specific directions -- that's fine...I'm ok with those differences. The issue is that Terran can not only switch quickly, but switch to absolutely dominant options. Terran have BY FAR the best "final army" possible among the three races...they also have the best ability to turtle...and they also have the best ability to switch directions tech-wise. It's just too much and it creates an imbalance. My solution is actually very simple -- nerf siege tanks further. They're a ridiculously OP unit -- Blizzard imported them in from SC1 and it just doesn't fit in this game with the removal of other's races options (like Dark Swarm) and the improved AI of the Tanks. The change could be as simple as raising the food cost to 4 and seeing the results.
|
I'm not bias as I don't play the beta, but I do watch it every day on live streams for hours sometimes. So I will say, no matter how much debating goes on, at the end of the day Terran mech is imbalanced. The tanks should over kill as they did in SC1 and that would fix a lot. Also if Zerg goes mass air against the mech I have seen those raven bombs fucking destroy all air in SECONDS. Just take away the tanks new AI and problem solved... Maybe.
|
obviously zerg/terran won't stop this argument. It is quite apparent that the thing zerg players want changed is the overkill factor. And terrans believe their new higher supply tanks to be close to useless without the overkill.
My solution is to make it where if something enters the tanks firing range it must shoot however it prefers not to overkill.
For example a force of 2 roaches (that are one hit away from death) come in to a base guarded by 2 tanks.
If the roaches enter side by side both tanks will fire upon a separate roach.
If the roaches enter single file the tanks will both fire upon the first roach because they must both fire because something enter their firing range.
This would make bombing more effective force terrans to spread their tanks more however in a massive battle. Tanks would still prioritize their targets.
|
On June 12 2010 09:34 Graven wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 07:39 cryostasis wrote:On June 11 2010 22:22 Graven wrote:On June 11 2010 22:13 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2010 21:29 Graven wrote:On June 11 2010 06:37 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2010 05:56 Graven wrote:
There was nothing Sheth could have done. And the argument that he should have gone all-in earlier is ridiculous. no single army composition should be unbeatable...especially something as simple to create as mass siege tanks. Oh come on ... Sheth let QXC have free reign of the Skies and with that came his doom. I think IdrA had a match with a TON of Corruptors and just a dash of Brood Lords which he won relatively easily. "There is nothing he could have done" is just the easy way out of trying to think ... thats basically giving up. Dont blame the others if you do that; it was the same with the Marauder builds at the beginning of beta and the upgrade for concussive shell would not really stop anyone from doing exactly the same stuff now; with Stim Pack being cheaper now it is almost the same cost ... but people have figured out how to beat that. Just watch the "TLO vs JinrO" game from Day[9] daily 131. The difference here is that JinrO does NOT use much air, which allows TLO to use his Overlords much more compared to other matches. Air dominance is the key to beating mech and if the Terran is freaking out with TONS of Vikings he will have A LOT less mech units and you could switch to ground really fast and waltz over his few tanks. Its really very very simple, but no one tried it. I havent seen a TvZ yet, where the Zerg had air dominance (mass corruptors and a few Brood Lords) and lost to a mass of mech. The difference in the TLO vs. Jinro game was the map -- there was just too much space for Jinro to try and defend. If Sheth played QXC on Meta, I'd bet on Sheth. And going Corrupters/Brolords at the end wouldn't have mattered -- could he have rushed to them and won? Maybe, maybe not...the problem still remains that an unbeatable army like the one QXC had should not be possible...and if it is, it shouldn't be so easy to achieve. I think another key point is the flexibility for Terran...there's really no way to know exactly what they're doing. You can scout out a Factory, start going air to prep for mass mech, and then face a big ball of MMM (assuming they made the factory just for the Starport. There ability to switch playstyles so quickly should prevent them from creating a final army like that -- currently, they have it both ways, which prevents Zerg from reacting all-in one way or another. To be completely honest, this argument is really silly. I'm finding it impossible to even understand the perspective of someone who doesn't think Terran are OP on many maps right now. Obviously Metalopolis is a rather open map, BUT bottlenecks can help screwing up a Terran mech army too. There are two other differences though: - Jinro has ZERO!!!! Vikings and this leaves TLO with "air dominance" (Overlords) and he uses that to spread creep - TLO attacks in several places at once. Several attack groups of 3 Ultralisks plus maybe a few Speedlings attack Jinros rather spread out positions. Using a drop on one and a small attack force on another base, using 1-2 Infestors with burrowed movement to punish the Terran for not having Turrets / Ravens as detectors and generally spreading creep for maximized Zerg mobility are key tactics of TLO which keep JinrO on the defensive and which eventually lets him GG. The key component is to have air dominance as the Zerg and if you have that you have the Terran on the defensive. If the Terran does the "extreme turtling" he contains himself and you can simply take every other base on the map and wear him down with twice as many resources. You can't have it both ways. To have air dominance as Zerg takes extreme amount of Vespene and can be countered HARD by Vikings and Thor's (probably the two best AA units in the game); and later Raven's with HSM. Hypotheticaly, if Sheth went mass Muta to start, QXC would have just delayed the Tanks in favor of earlier Vikings and still slowely expanded inching out with turrets. Couple things: Vikings SUCK OUT LOUD against mutalisks. They are not a good tradeoff economically for a Terran in the early game when the zerg player working off of 2-3 saturated bases. 100/100 is dirt cheap for how good mutalisks are. Terran can be abused with mutas just like Terran could be abused by mutas in SC1 until the Thor is out. Vespene for Zerg should be much more readily available than for the Terran who is always gas starved and stuck on his main and his natural geysers until you let him have more. Also, overlords need to get sacked every once in a while. You can't build blindly. You also said terran is the most versatile race by far. I would disagree. Terran buildings, specifically, are the most versatile, but that is out of necessity. Terran has the worst ability of the 3 races to raise a quick army of a needed unit since they need lots of producing structures and all units have build times, so to compensate for this, Blizzard gave them the ability to swap add-ons for easier production. While I agree that if it's just mass Muta vs. mass Terran, it's a good spot for Zerg, but it's not that simple. Thors, Ravens and Tower's enter the equation and it's over for Zerg air dominance. As for your Vespene comment, you're just wrong, so I'll assume you haven't played Zerg very much. As for your versatility comment, I wrote nothing about raising an army quickly. Terran is dead last among the three races in that department...where they're first is.......versatility, haha. The 1/1/1 strat gets them all their needed tech immediately in a game, allowing them to go in any direction at any time. For Zerg and Protoss, they need to invest heavily in specific directions -- that's fine...I'm ok with those differences. The issue is that Terran can not only switch quickly, but switch to absolutely dominant options. Terran have BY FAR the best "final army" possible among the three races...they also have the best ability to turtle...and they also have the best ability to switch directions tech-wise. It's just too much and it creates an imbalance. My solution is actually very simple -- nerf siege tanks further. They're a ridiculously OP unit -- Blizzard imported them in from SC1 and it just doesn't fit in this game with the removal of other's races options (like Dark Swarm) and the improved AI of the Tanks. The change could be as simple as raising the food cost to 4 and seeing the results.
I've mostly played Terran but I have played some Zerg. On almost all 1v1 maps, except for Incineration Zone, which is not a good map, Zerg should have an easier time than Terran taking a 3rd base for the extra 2 geysers. Yeah, Kulas can kinda suck for Zerg too, but these maps will fall out of favor in ladder sooner rather than later because of this.
The "versatility" ties in to how quickly Terran can adapt for a counter attack. These aspects of each race are not unrelated, so the speed at which you can raise a force of units that you need is implied. Terran has the easiest access to the various tech trees but also has by far the slowest production capability. These factors are supposed to balance one another. Also, Terran's ability to turtle is out of necessity. Terran has always been the most fragile race. Not turtling, at least to some extent against Zerg and Protoss, is suicide.
Also, I never said mass muta. You continue to simplify the potential unit matchups in TvZ. Mutas actually hold their own until the Terran has more than 1 Thor, and even then, the Thors are slow as hell. Mutas are meant to abuse Terran's immobility, and muta vs Thor is a perfect example of this. Corruptor/Muta is a formidable air dominance combo. Every 2 Thors you force the terran to build is about 3 siege tanks he won't have in his army. Making the Terran build Thors should make your melee units happy.
Your suggestion that siege tanks be nerfed further is alarming. Siege tanks were of questionable value until they buffed the way the damage is recorded just a few patches ago. Even if Terran does have the best "final army" as you said, which is debatable, it's up to Zerg not to let Terran get that army. I've already suggested replays and possible options to pursue for that goal.
|
Everyone keeps focusing on the Overkill (one of the big differences between BW and SC2); I think they're missing another important change:
Patch 11:
Siege Mode splash damage now originates from the center of the target, rather than the impact location near the unit in order to maintain more reliable splash damage.
There were a number of changes before patch 11 that directly improved Mech:
Patch 8 decreased build times for tanks and thors
Patch 7 gave thors splash
Patch 6 decreased factory and techlab cost
But it wasn't really until after Patch 11 that mech play started to catch on. Some might say this is a delayed effect from earlier patches, but I really think its the change in the nature of splash damage that really gave mech its power.
You have to remember prior to patch 12 you could have an army of 200 roaches, and many zerg players did. The effect of patch 11 on this army was heavily noticeable. Given a small enough choke and enough tanks (say 36 supply) the roaches couldn't even get close. After patch 12 I saw that army cut in half (with hydra having half the hp of a roach). The result was an even more effective mech army. The 1:1:1 build started to become dominate. Tanks with viking/marine backup.
Now, granted I don't feel Mech is imbalanced, but it does feel that any straight up battle is a guaranteed loss. It does feel like I'm playing with one hand behind my back. Not unbeatable, but frustrating. Simple solutions, such as Doom drop or tunneling claws are not going to beat this combo. What's more the tech is already in place to swap in thor or hellion in response to muta/ling. Instead I find more effective solutions to be:
1) Ultralisks (they're larger than the splash)
2) Nydus (hitting him from 2 sides with full force)
3) Drop at a base away from his army
4) Hiding speedlings to shove in his back door
5) Sacrificing infesters (or harassing his mineral line with them)
6) Creep highways (this is less of a solution and more of a necessity).
|
On June 11 2010 22:22 Graven wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2010 22:13 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2010 21:29 Graven wrote:On June 11 2010 06:37 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2010 05:56 Graven wrote:
There was nothing Sheth could have done. And the argument that he should have gone all-in earlier is ridiculous. no single army composition should be unbeatable...especially something as simple to create as mass siege tanks. Oh come on ... Sheth let QXC have free reign of the Skies and with that came his doom. I think IdrA had a match with a TON of Corruptors and just a dash of Brood Lords which he won relatively easily. "There is nothing he could have done" is just the easy way out of trying to think ... thats basically giving up. Dont blame the others if you do that; it was the same with the Marauder builds at the beginning of beta and the upgrade for concussive shell would not really stop anyone from doing exactly the same stuff now; with Stim Pack being cheaper now it is almost the same cost ... but people have figured out how to beat that. Just watch the "TLO vs JinrO" game from Day[9] daily 131. The difference here is that JinrO does NOT use much air, which allows TLO to use his Overlords much more compared to other matches. Air dominance is the key to beating mech and if the Terran is freaking out with TONS of Vikings he will have A LOT less mech units and you could switch to ground really fast and waltz over his few tanks. Its really very very simple, but no one tried it. I havent seen a TvZ yet, where the Zerg had air dominance (mass corruptors and a few Brood Lords) and lost to a mass of mech. The difference in the TLO vs. Jinro game was the map -- there was just too much space for Jinro to try and defend. If Sheth played QXC on Meta, I'd bet on Sheth. And going Corrupters/Brolords at the end wouldn't have mattered -- could he have rushed to them and won? Maybe, maybe not...the problem still remains that an unbeatable army like the one QXC had should not be possible...and if it is, it shouldn't be so easy to achieve. I think another key point is the flexibility for Terran...there's really no way to know exactly what they're doing. You can scout out a Factory, start going air to prep for mass mech, and then face a big ball of MMM (assuming they made the factory just for the Starport. There ability to switch playstyles so quickly should prevent them from creating a final army like that -- currently, they have it both ways, which prevents Zerg from reacting all-in one way or another. To be completely honest, this argument is really silly. I'm finding it impossible to even understand the perspective of someone who doesn't think Terran are OP on many maps right now. Obviously Metalopolis is a rather open map, BUT bottlenecks can help screwing up a Terran mech army too. There are two other differences though: - Jinro has ZERO!!!! Vikings and this leaves TLO with "air dominance" (Overlords) and he uses that to spread creep - TLO attacks in several places at once. Several attack groups of 3 Ultralisks plus maybe a few Speedlings attack Jinros rather spread out positions. Using a drop on one and a small attack force on another base, using 1-2 Infestors with burrowed movement to punish the Terran for not having Turrets / Ravens as detectors and generally spreading creep for maximized Zerg mobility are key tactics of TLO which keep JinrO on the defensive and which eventually lets him GG. The key component is to have air dominance as the Zerg and if you have that you have the Terran on the defensive. If the Terran does the "extreme turtling" he contains himself and you can simply take every other base on the map and wear him down with twice as many resources. You can't have it both ways. To have air dominance as Zerg takes extreme amount of Vespene and can be countered HARD by Vikings and Thor's (probably the two best AA units in the game); and later Raven's with HSM. Hypotheticaly, if Sheth went mass Muta to start, QXC would have just delayed the Tanks in favor of earlier Vikings and still slowely expanded inching out with turrets.
Youre not thinking about consequences and definetely not about tech switches.
Your thesis: Vikings and Thors counter Zerg air HARD.
1. Totally half-true IMO, because Corruptors are ARMORED and Thors only do half damage against them (see one of my earlier posts or look up the stats yourself).
2. The stats of the units do NOT matter if superior numbers are on your side and since we are "whining about terran mech being overpowered" here you cant expect that the Terran will outnumber the Zerg if the Zerg goes "full air" or "mostly air". So the Zerg should win OR the Terran is stuck with a shitload of Vikings which wont do well against Zerg ground once the Terran has killed the Zerg air forces.
3. The Thor is only good on paper, especially small chokes and other things which make their movement hard, are things which make it easy to run circles around them and evade them. Building lots of turrets is a much better anti air IMO, because they shoot much faster and are good against armored units as well.
Your thesis: "if Sheth went mass Muta to start, QXC would have just delayed the Tanks in favor of earlier Vikings"
The tactic for Zerg is NOT to start with air as you suggest, but rather lure the Terran into spending resources on ground forces and then do the tech switch and go full air (Corruptors mostly to be morphed into some Brood Lords). Think before posting and think around the corners and not in a straight line.
On June 12 2010 17:29 tzenes wrote:
Instead I find more effective solutions to be:
1) Ultralisks (they're larger than the splash)
2) Nydus (hitting him from 2 sides with full force)
3) Drop at a base away from his army
4) Hiding speedlings to shove in his back door
5) Sacrificing infesters (or harassing his mineral line with them)
6) Creep highways (this is less of a solution and more of a necessity).
3a) Faking drops at a different base.
1a) Sending in mid-sized armies at several spots at the same time. To defend at all the Terran has to split up his tanks, BUT 5 sieged tanks dont kill Ultralisks as fast as 10 do and consequently some might reach the tanks to kill them. Effectively this is summed up as "dont have the one-control-group-syndrome".
|
On June 11 2010 17:33 Rabiator wrote:
Air superiority
- "must have" for a Terran mech to maximize the efficiency of tanks
- therefore it is a "requirement" to deny it to the Terran if you want to beat him
- Air superiority is gained by the Terran through Vikings and Ravens mostly; Turrets, Marines and Thors "only" give localized air control
The Viking:
- anti-air damage 10(+4 vs armored), 2 seconds delay between shots, range 9
- armor: 0
- hit points: 125
The Corruptor
- damage: 14(+6 vs massive), 1,9 seconds delay between shots, range 6
- armor: 2
- hit points: 200
The Raven
- most efficient kill method with the Seeker missile
- 1 Raven = 3 Vikings (Gas-wise)
So if I compare these two the Viking seems to be a lot better, because it has a longer range and you can do the "fancy range dance" to shoot down the Corruptors, BUT the armor on the corruptors and their much higher hit points should even that out. The most important thing is the numbers you have on the battlefield and the higher the Viking count becomes the harder it will get to gain air superiority, BUT the Terran wanted to go mech and wont make 50 Vikings, right? If he does you could easily build lots of ground forces and win.
- 9 Corruptors are needed to shoot down a Viking in one volley
- 16 Vikings are needed to shoot down a Corruptor in one volley
- Zerg should not allow the Terran his "peace and quiet" to build lots of Ravens
Uhm, are you aware that Vikings have two attacks? It only takes 9 vikings to one-shot a corruptor. In even numbers, vikings will have a slight edge against corruptors even if both are just attackmoved.
If you factor in micro, vikings will easily win. On top of that, once ravens come into play, the corruptors will be completely destroyed by PDD.
Terran mech might well be balanced after the recent nerfs, but I'm pretty sure that going for corruptor broodlord is not the best way to defeat mech.
|
On June 12 2010 17:27 cryostasis wrote:
Even if Terran does have the best "final army" as you said, which is debatable, it's up to Zerg not to let Terran get that army.
That's not an answer. No race should ever have an "I win" scenario -- such a scenario is the exact definition of imbalance. And as far as "final" armies go, it's not remotely debatable. It's counter-intuative for the race with the best turtle ability and the most versatility to also have an unbeatable final army. Those factors force opposing races to severely alter their play, creating mistakes. It's an inherent advantage built in for Terran right now.
|
On June 12 2010 18:32 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2010 22:22 Graven wrote:On June 11 2010 22:13 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2010 21:29 Graven wrote:On June 11 2010 06:37 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2010 05:56 Graven wrote:
There was nothing Sheth could have done. And the argument that he should have gone all-in earlier is ridiculous. no single army composition should be unbeatable...especially something as simple to create as mass siege tanks. Oh come on ... Sheth let QXC have free reign of the Skies and with that came his doom. I think IdrA had a match with a TON of Corruptors and just a dash of Brood Lords which he won relatively easily. "There is nothing he could have done" is just the easy way out of trying to think ... thats basically giving up. Dont blame the others if you do that; it was the same with the Marauder builds at the beginning of beta and the upgrade for concussive shell would not really stop anyone from doing exactly the same stuff now; with Stim Pack being cheaper now it is almost the same cost ... but people have figured out how to beat that. Just watch the "TLO vs JinrO" game from Day[9] daily 131. The difference here is that JinrO does NOT use much air, which allows TLO to use his Overlords much more compared to other matches. Air dominance is the key to beating mech and if the Terran is freaking out with TONS of Vikings he will have A LOT less mech units and you could switch to ground really fast and waltz over his few tanks. Its really very very simple, but no one tried it. I havent seen a TvZ yet, where the Zerg had air dominance (mass corruptors and a few Brood Lords) and lost to a mass of mech. The difference in the TLO vs. Jinro game was the map -- there was just too much space for Jinro to try and defend. If Sheth played QXC on Meta, I'd bet on Sheth. And going Corrupters/Brolords at the end wouldn't have mattered -- could he have rushed to them and won? Maybe, maybe not...the problem still remains that an unbeatable army like the one QXC had should not be possible...and if it is, it shouldn't be so easy to achieve. I think another key point is the flexibility for Terran...there's really no way to know exactly what they're doing. You can scout out a Factory, start going air to prep for mass mech, and then face a big ball of MMM (assuming they made the factory just for the Starport. There ability to switch playstyles so quickly should prevent them from creating a final army like that -- currently, they have it both ways, which prevents Zerg from reacting all-in one way or another. To be completely honest, this argument is really silly. I'm finding it impossible to even understand the perspective of someone who doesn't think Terran are OP on many maps right now. Obviously Metalopolis is a rather open map, BUT bottlenecks can help screwing up a Terran mech army too. There are two other differences though: - Jinro has ZERO!!!! Vikings and this leaves TLO with "air dominance" (Overlords) and he uses that to spread creep - TLO attacks in several places at once. Several attack groups of 3 Ultralisks plus maybe a few Speedlings attack Jinros rather spread out positions. Using a drop on one and a small attack force on another base, using 1-2 Infestors with burrowed movement to punish the Terran for not having Turrets / Ravens as detectors and generally spreading creep for maximized Zerg mobility are key tactics of TLO which keep JinrO on the defensive and which eventually lets him GG. The key component is to have air dominance as the Zerg and if you have that you have the Terran on the defensive. If the Terran does the "extreme turtling" he contains himself and you can simply take every other base on the map and wear him down with twice as many resources. You can't have it both ways. To have air dominance as Zerg takes extreme amount of Vespene and can be countered HARD by Vikings and Thor's (probably the two best AA units in the game); and later Raven's with HSM. Hypotheticaly, if Sheth went mass Muta to start, QXC would have just delayed the Tanks in favor of earlier Vikings and still slowely expanded inching out with turrets. Youre not thinking about consequences and definetely not about tech switches. Your thesis: Vikings and Thors counter Zerg air HARD. 1. Totally half-true IMO, because Corruptors are ARMORED and Thors only do half damage against them (see one of my earlier posts or look up the stats yourself). 2. The stats of the units do NOT matter if superior numbers are on your side and since we are "whining about terran mech being overpowered" here you cant expect that the Terran will outnumber the Zerg if the Zerg goes "full air" or "mostly air". So the Zerg should win OR the Terran is stuck with a shitload of Vikings which wont do well against Zerg ground once the Terran has killed the Zerg air forces. 3. The Thor is only good on paper, especially small chokes and other things which make their movement hard, are things which make it easy to run circles around them and evade them. Building lots of turrets is a much better anti air IMO, because they shoot much faster and are good against armored units as well. Your thesis: "if Sheth went mass Muta to start, QXC would have just delayed the Tanks in favor of earlier Vikings" The tactic for Zerg is NOT to start with air as you suggest, but rather lure the Terran into spending resources on ground forces and then do the tech switch and go full air (Corruptors mostly to be morphed into some Brood Lords). Think before posting and think around the corners and not in a straight line. Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 17:29 tzenes wrote:
Instead I find more effective solutions to be:
1) Ultralisks (they're larger than the splash)
2) Nydus (hitting him from 2 sides with full force)
3) Drop at a base away from his army
4) Hiding speedlings to shove in his back door
5) Sacrificing infesters (or harassing his mineral line with them)
6) Creep highways (this is less of a solution and more of a necessity). 3a) Faking drops at a different base. 1a) Sending in mid-sized armies at several spots at the same time. To defend at all the Terran has to split up his tanks, BUT 5 sieged tanks dont kill Ultralisks as fast as 10 do and consequently some might reach the tanks to kill them. Effectively this is summed up as "dont have the one-control-group-syndrome".
Let me make sure I understand this. You're suggesting that the best Zerg strat vs. Terran right now is for Zerg to go mass ground, forcing Terran to go heavy tank. Then, Zerg should bank tons of larvae and suicide their army to the tanks. Lastly, Zerg should mass Muta and Corrupters with the saved Larvae, rallying them to Terran's base before they know what hit them, and in turn, preventing Terran from gathering enough AA because of the food cap. If the Zerg does this well enough and the Terran is half retarded, Zerg will catch his opponent completely off-gaurd with no turrets, Vikings or Thors and crush him! Sounds like an awesome and perfectly balanced game.
Be honest, you dabble in hard drugs at times...am I right?
|
Every imba complaints in starcraft 2 right now are solved by only proper micro(If you have low apm, You are the problem, not the balance). Everyone just love blizzard. That is why everyone depends their wins to the nerfs blizzard does to the other race.
Edit: not really. Army composition, More superior macro, practice and faith in God could do it too.
|
On June 12 2010 20:14 Drunken.Jedi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2010 17:33 Rabiator wrote:
Air superiority
- "must have" for a Terran mech to maximize the efficiency of tanks
- therefore it is a "requirement" to deny it to the Terran if you want to beat him
- Air superiority is gained by the Terran through Vikings and Ravens mostly; Turrets, Marines and Thors "only" give localized air control
The Viking:
- anti-air damage 10(+4 vs armored), 2 seconds delay between shots, range 9
- armor: 0
- hit points: 125
The Corruptor
- damage: 14(+6 vs massive), 1,9 seconds delay between shots, range 6
- armor: 2
- hit points: 200
The Raven
- most efficient kill method with the Seeker missile
- 1 Raven = 3 Vikings (Gas-wise)
So if I compare these two the Viking seems to be a lot better, because it has a longer range and you can do the "fancy range dance" to shoot down the Corruptors, BUT the armor on the corruptors and their much higher hit points should even that out. The most important thing is the numbers you have on the battlefield and the higher the Viking count becomes the harder it will get to gain air superiority, BUT the Terran wanted to go mech and wont make 50 Vikings, right? If he does you could easily build lots of ground forces and win.
- 9 Corruptors are needed to shoot down a Viking in one volley
- 16 Vikings are needed to shoot down a Corruptor in one volley
- Zerg should not allow the Terran his "peace and quiet" to build lots of Ravens
Uhm, are you aware that Vikings have two attacks? It only takes 9 vikings to one-shot a corruptor. In even numbers, vikings will have a slight edge against corruptors even if both are just attackmoved. If you factor in micro, vikings will easily win. On top of that, once ravens come into play, the corruptors will be completely destroyed by PDD. Terran mech might well be balanced after the recent nerfs, but I'm pretty sure that going for corruptor broodlord is not the best way to defeat mech.
Damn ... that was an oversight on my part and I apologize for missing that two-shots part for the Vikings. Nevertheless we are complaining about Terran MECH here and this most likely means that the Terran will not fully go air, but as a Zerg you could do that. Sure the Ravens will screw up Corruptors, but you should not let him have time to mass too many of them and attack to neutralize his existing air force before he is ready. PDDs take time, because the Ravens need to gain a lot of energy.
Oh and lets not forget the 20% more damage debuff which Corruptors have now ... it should be used, same as trying to lure the Vikings (+Ravens) over some of your own ground based air defenses. Just a few Hydras would work wonders and before the Ravens are out burrow works nicely for them. Infestors and Fungal Growth will stop Vikings from running away too. This is something where you need to be creative and not try to use only one type of unit. Its the mix which will give you victory.
|
On June 12 2010 21:40 Graven wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 18:32 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2010 22:22 Graven wrote:On June 11 2010 22:13 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2010 21:29 Graven wrote:On June 11 2010 06:37 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2010 05:56 Graven wrote:
There was nothing Sheth could have done. And the argument that he should have gone all-in earlier is ridiculous. no single army composition should be unbeatable...especially something as simple to create as mass siege tanks. Oh come on ... Sheth let QXC have free reign of the Skies and with that came his doom. I think IdrA had a match with a TON of Corruptors and just a dash of Brood Lords which he won relatively easily. "There is nothing he could have done" is just the easy way out of trying to think ... thats basically giving up. Dont blame the others if you do that; it was the same with the Marauder builds at the beginning of beta and the upgrade for concussive shell would not really stop anyone from doing exactly the same stuff now; with Stim Pack being cheaper now it is almost the same cost ... but people have figured out how to beat that. Just watch the "TLO vs JinrO" game from Day[9] daily 131. The difference here is that JinrO does NOT use much air, which allows TLO to use his Overlords much more compared to other matches. Air dominance is the key to beating mech and if the Terran is freaking out with TONS of Vikings he will have A LOT less mech units and you could switch to ground really fast and waltz over his few tanks. Its really very very simple, but no one tried it. I havent seen a TvZ yet, where the Zerg had air dominance (mass corruptors and a few Brood Lords) and lost to a mass of mech. The difference in the TLO vs. Jinro game was the map -- there was just too much space for Jinro to try and defend. If Sheth played QXC on Meta, I'd bet on Sheth. And going Corrupters/Brolords at the end wouldn't have mattered -- could he have rushed to them and won? Maybe, maybe not...the problem still remains that an unbeatable army like the one QXC had should not be possible...and if it is, it shouldn't be so easy to achieve. I think another key point is the flexibility for Terran...there's really no way to know exactly what they're doing. You can scout out a Factory, start going air to prep for mass mech, and then face a big ball of MMM (assuming they made the factory just for the Starport. There ability to switch playstyles so quickly should prevent them from creating a final army like that -- currently, they have it both ways, which prevents Zerg from reacting all-in one way or another. To be completely honest, this argument is really silly. I'm finding it impossible to even understand the perspective of someone who doesn't think Terran are OP on many maps right now. Obviously Metalopolis is a rather open map, BUT bottlenecks can help screwing up a Terran mech army too. There are two other differences though: - Jinro has ZERO!!!! Vikings and this leaves TLO with "air dominance" (Overlords) and he uses that to spread creep - TLO attacks in several places at once. Several attack groups of 3 Ultralisks plus maybe a few Speedlings attack Jinros rather spread out positions. Using a drop on one and a small attack force on another base, using 1-2 Infestors with burrowed movement to punish the Terran for not having Turrets / Ravens as detectors and generally spreading creep for maximized Zerg mobility are key tactics of TLO which keep JinrO on the defensive and which eventually lets him GG. The key component is to have air dominance as the Zerg and if you have that you have the Terran on the defensive. If the Terran does the "extreme turtling" he contains himself and you can simply take every other base on the map and wear him down with twice as many resources. You can't have it both ways. To have air dominance as Zerg takes extreme amount of Vespene and can be countered HARD by Vikings and Thor's (probably the two best AA units in the game); and later Raven's with HSM. Hypotheticaly, if Sheth went mass Muta to start, QXC would have just delayed the Tanks in favor of earlier Vikings and still slowely expanded inching out with turrets. Youre not thinking about consequences and definetely not about tech switches. Your thesis: Vikings and Thors counter Zerg air HARD. 1. Totally half-true IMO, because Corruptors are ARMORED and Thors only do half damage against them (see one of my earlier posts or look up the stats yourself). 2. The stats of the units do NOT matter if superior numbers are on your side and since we are "whining about terran mech being overpowered" here you cant expect that the Terran will outnumber the Zerg if the Zerg goes "full air" or "mostly air". So the Zerg should win OR the Terran is stuck with a shitload of Vikings which wont do well against Zerg ground once the Terran has killed the Zerg air forces. 3. The Thor is only good on paper, especially small chokes and other things which make their movement hard, are things which make it easy to run circles around them and evade them. Building lots of turrets is a much better anti air IMO, because they shoot much faster and are good against armored units as well. Your thesis: "if Sheth went mass Muta to start, QXC would have just delayed the Tanks in favor of earlier Vikings" The tactic for Zerg is NOT to start with air as you suggest, but rather lure the Terran into spending resources on ground forces and then do the tech switch and go full air (Corruptors mostly to be morphed into some Brood Lords). Think before posting and think around the corners and not in a straight line. On June 12 2010 17:29 tzenes wrote:
Instead I find more effective solutions to be:
1) Ultralisks (they're larger than the splash)
2) Nydus (hitting him from 2 sides with full force)
3) Drop at a base away from his army
4) Hiding speedlings to shove in his back door
5) Sacrificing infesters (or harassing his mineral line with them)
6) Creep highways (this is less of a solution and more of a necessity). 3a) Faking drops at a different base. 1a) Sending in mid-sized armies at several spots at the same time. To defend at all the Terran has to split up his tanks, BUT 5 sieged tanks dont kill Ultralisks as fast as 10 do and consequently some might reach the tanks to kill them. Effectively this is summed up as "dont have the one-control-group-syndrome". Let me make sure I understand this. You're suggesting that the best Zerg strat vs. Terran right now is for Zerg to go mass ground, forcing Terran to go heavy tank. Then, Zerg should bank tons of larvae and suicide their army to the tanks. Lastly, Zerg should mass Muta and Corrupters with the saved Larvae, rallying them to Terran's base before they know what hit them, and in turn, preventing Terran from gathering enough AA because of the food cap. If the Zerg does this well enough and the Terran is half retarded, Zerg will catch his opponent completely off-gaurd with no turrets, Vikings or Thors and crush him! Sounds like an awesome and perfectly balanced game. Be honest, you dabble in hard drugs at times...am I right?
No I am NOT saying to go "mass ground", but you will need a decent sized ground force to fend off an early push, right? And if you hide your Spire and build a decently sized air force after the push has been dealt with you should be fine. Saving Gas for this air force is a key part IMO, because you will need a lot of it. Spine Crawlers, Roaches, Zerglings and maybe Queens and Spore Crawlers are all nice mineral heavy costs.
|
On June 12 2010 18:32 Rabiator wrote:2. The stats of the units do NOT matter if superior numbers are on your side and since we are "whining about terran mech being overpowered" here you cant expect that the Terran will outnumber the Zerg if the Zerg goes "full air" or "mostly air". So the Zerg should win OR the Terran is stuck with a shitload of Vikings which wont do well against Zerg ground once the Terran has killed the Zerg air forces.
I don't really think that this strat is viable, which might be why you don't see zerg players doing it. You need an early-mid game ground force to hold off a mech push and you cannot build it in reaction to an incoming mech push: if you do, you'll end up with tanks sieged up in front of your natural right as your army pops out.
I also wouldn't brush aside the consequences of losing air superiority to a large mass of vikings while you do not yet have a good amount of hydras to prevent overlord hunting.
|
This debate is beyond frustrating. Tanks HARD counter ALL ground units in the game. It's not balanced and it's not debatable. Even if air units were a good counter, which they often aren't, it still wouldn't prove anything. The idea that Terran can mass 20 of one unit and make all opposing ground units worthless is ridiculous. It'd be the equivalent of like 25 Hydras hard countering 200/200 Carriers. I can't fathom the mindset of people who truthfully believe Terran mech is balanced right now. You'd have to be playing a different game.
|
On June 12 2010 23:24 Graven wrote:
This debate is beyond frustrating. Tanks HARD counter ALL ground units in the game. It's not balanced and it's not debatable. Even if air units were a good counter, which they often aren't, it still wouldn't prove anything. The idea that Terran can mass 20 of one unit and make all opposing ground units worthless is ridiculous. It'd be the equivalent of like 25 Hydras hard countering 200/200 Carriers. I can't fathom the mindset of people who truthfully believe Terran mech is balanced right now. You'd have to be playing a different game.
And What do you think 20 tanks did in SC1???
mind you in sc1 tanks cost 50% less food and 25 less gas.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
