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On June 11 2010 05:56 Graven wrote:
There was nothing Sheth could have done. And the argument that he should have gone all-in earlier is ridiculous. no single army composition should be unbeatable...especially something as simple to create as mass siege tanks.
Oh come on ... Sheth let QXC have free reign of the Skies and with that came his doom. I think IdrA had a match with a TON of Corruptors and just a dash of Brood Lords which he won relatively easily.
"There is nothing he could have done" is just the easy way out of trying to think ... thats basically giving up. Dont blame the others if you do that; it was the same with the Marauder builds at the beginning of beta and the upgrade for concussive shell would not really stop anyone from doing exactly the same stuff now; with Stim Pack being cheaper now it is almost the same cost ... but people have figured out how to beat that.
Just watch the "TLO vs JinrO" game from Day[9] daily 131. The difference here is that JinrO does NOT use much air, which allows TLO to use his Overlords much more compared to other matches. Air dominance is the key to beating mech and if the Terran is freaking out with TONS of Vikings he will have A LOT less mech units and you could switch to ground really fast and waltz over his few tanks. Its really very very simple, but no one tried it. I havent seen a TvZ yet, where the Zerg had air dominance (mass corruptors and a few Brood Lords) and lost to a mass of mech.
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I agree its completely beatable (terran mech) and all ur solutions make perfect sense except one HUGE problem, to do army drops, vortex', splitting army, burrowing half, doing storms and fungals, all work but it requires an insane amount of micro while the terran just A-moves and seiges thats why its imba, the micro and the fact that u need a perfect unit composition and placement to beat as opposed to just A-moving
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On June 11 2010 06:47 MIKE HUTN EASY wrote:
I agree its completely beatable (terran mech) and all ur solutions make perfect sense except one HUGE problem, to do army drops, vortex', splitting army, burrowing half, doing storms and fungals, all work but it requires an insane amount of micro while the terran just A-moves and seiges thats why its imba, the micro and the fact that u need a perfect unit composition and placement to beat as opposed to just A-moving
This.
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On June 11 2010 05:54 Graven wrote:Watch this five game series between QXC and Sheth. If you want to save time, just watch Game 2, 4, and 5. If you still think the game is balanced...lol. http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/7347080
You can only claim that the game is imbalanced if Sheth played perfectly. He didnt and his strategy was flawed. Running 8 Ultralisks into a dozen sieged tanks is NOT a good plan and not using a Nydus Network to increase the mobility of these Ultralisks is bad too. Allowing the Terran to get air superiority (and thus VISION for the tanks) is bad as well ...
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On June 11 2010 06:47 MIKE HUTN EASY wrote:
I agree its completely beatable (terran mech) and all ur solutions make perfect sense except one HUGE problem, to do army drops, vortex', splitting army, burrowing half, doing storms and fungals, all work but it requires an insane amount of micro while the terran just A-moves and seiges thats why its imba, the micro and the fact that u need a perfect unit composition and placement to beat as opposed to just A-moving
Uh huh ... sieging is "really easy" and you cant screw up your own play by making mistakes there? Well positioning is much more important for a slow moving army as it is for a fast one, simply because you cant change / correct it easily. Obviously running into a sieged army is making the job really easy for the sieged Terran, but what if the opponent dodges your sieged tanks and instead attacks somewhere else? Thors and a few tanks moving up and down ramps take a huge amount of time and thats what you have to make them do if you want to win ... NOT attacking the sieged tanks but rathere everywhere else. MoMan did a great job at assaulting the positions of LzGamer in the match listed by Raelcun and every Zerg should take a few hints from those.
Personally I consider Terran mech to be HARD to play, simply because it is the least forgiving race to play. If you build the wrong unit you are screwed and you could almost never catch up with building "the right stuff" unless your opponent lets you. Zerg have dozens of larvae on stockpile to produce a bunch of different units at once and Protoss have their Warp Gate AND Chrono Boost(!), but Terrans have three different production facilities and getting a lot of something different from the stuff you planned to get takes time and preparation. Mech alone is rather vulnerable to air (unless a Zerg is stupid enough to try Mutalisks) and if he doesnt have a Starport or two to produce Vikings he will not gain air superiority. Not having air superiority severely limits the usefulness of tanks!
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People seem to always be under the assumption of "if I can't a-move into it, it's overpowered" when concerning SC2's balance (including blizzard) which is a really silly way of thinking about game balance. You can't a-move into tanks in SC1 either, or dark swarm, or mines, or reavers, or lurkers.. but are all of those overpowered and deserving of a nerf?
Given, the tank AI is better in SC2 so tanks should be a bit weaker, but still. If you could a-move into a ball of tanks what purpose do they even serve? They'd be completely useless.
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On June 11 2010 07:02 Rabiator wrote:Mech alone is rather vulnerable to air (unless a Zerg is stupid enough to try Mutalisks) and if he doesnt have a Starport or two to produce Vikings he will not gain air superiority.
That's a very convoluted way of saying that brood lords work well against mech, except if terran builds a starport upon scouting a hive.
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On June 11 2010 06:51 Rabiator wrote:You can only claim that the game is imbalanced if Sheth played perfectly. He didnt and his strategy was flawed. Running 8 Ultralisks into a dozen sieged tanks is NOT a good plan and not using a Nydus Network to increase the mobility of these Ultralisks is bad too. Allowing the Terran to get air superiority (and thus VISION for the tanks) is bad as well ...
So you're suggesting using a nydus near the tanks to help ultralisk getting into range ? have you allready have used a nydus ? seriously ?
Allowing terran to get air superiority... hmmm.... against viking + raven + thor what do you want to do ?
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Explain to me how it works you illiterate. You obviously couldn't do that without the wikipedia page. Obviously he knew the existence of the system too.
We were never questioning his awareness of the systems existence.
...and some sort of math I don't understand that factors in player skill...
That's really vague... but yeah, it's more than just us making sure the matchmaker is working.
Do you understand? I don't think so.
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On June 11 2010 09:09 Trok67 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2010 06:51 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2010 05:54 Graven wrote:Watch this five game series between QXC and Sheth. If you want to save time, just watch Game 2, 4, and 5. If you still think the game is balanced...lol. http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/7347080 You can only claim that the game is imbalanced if Sheth played perfectly. He didnt and his strategy was flawed. Running 8 Ultralisks into a dozen sieged tanks is NOT a good plan and not using a Nydus Network to increase the mobility of these Ultralisks is bad too. Allowing the Terran to get air superiority (and thus VISION for the tanks) is bad as well ... So you're suggesting using a nydus near the tanks to help ultralisk getting into range ? have you allready have used a nydus ? seriously ? Allowing terran to get air superiority... hmmm.... against viking + raven + thor what do you want to do ?
I would like to know how Terran managed to get 5 bases worth of gas for tank/thor/viking/raven while Zerg apparently has jack squat.
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On June 11 2010 05:54 Graven wrote:Watch this five game series between QXC and Sheth. If you want to save time, just watch Game 2, 4, and 5. If you still think the game is balanced...lol. http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/7347080
That zerg was horrible. He had 13000 minerals and 10000 gas at various points throughout the game. Thats a 200/200 army right their. Except not once in the entire game does he engage terran with an equal army. If he built 5 hatches and pumped out zerglings and ultralisks non stop with a some infestors, he would have won the game incredibly easily. In one case he had 5 bases to 3 and he was just sitting on 6000 minerals with a 170/200 army with a terrible composition. If he had pumped out ~125 food worth of lings and ultra, one attack would have decimated the terrans ground army and he would be able to instantly macro up a second army.
Failing at that, in points later game when he was sitting at 100/200 and terran at 200/200, if he had macroed up all his hatches and spawned corruptors from his pool of 10k minerals and gas, he would have had 40 corruptors to the terrans 18 vikings and ONE reactor starport and 1 techlabport. Morph 5 of them into broodlords and just attack a.
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On June 11 2010 09:17 Half wrote:Explain to me how it works
No
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On June 11 2010 09:25 Half wrote:That zerg was horrible. He had 13000 minerals and 10000 gas at various points throughout the game. Thats a 200/200 army right their. Except not once in the entire game does he engage terran with an equal army. If he built 5 hatches and pumped out zerglings and ultralisks non stop with a some infestors, he would have won the game incredibly easily. In one case he had 5 bases to 3 and he was just sitting on 6000 minerals with a 170/200 army with a terrible composition. If he had pumped out ~125 food worth of lings and ultra, one attack would have decimated the terrans ground army and he would be able to instantly macro up a second army. Failing at that, in points later game when he was sitting at 100/200 and terran at 200/200, if he had macroed up all his hatches and spawned corruptors from his pool of 10k minerals and gas, he would have had 40 corruptors to the terrans 18 vikings and ONE reactor starport and 1 techlabport. Morph 5 of them into broodlords and just attack a.
ROFL. I haven't watched the replay, but seriously, these are the zerg players we are hearing the complaints from. It isn't possible for a Terran that has been on 2 bases to have enough thors, vikings AND tanks to hold off all the possible methods of zerg attack if the zerg scouts properly. This topic is getting stale.
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On June 11 2010 09:09 Trok67 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2010 06:51 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2010 05:54 Graven wrote:Watch this five game series between QXC and Sheth. If you want to save time, just watch Game 2, 4, and 5. If you still think the game is balanced...lol. http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/7347080 You can only claim that the game is imbalanced if Sheth played perfectly. He didnt and his strategy was flawed. Running 8 Ultralisks into a dozen sieged tanks is NOT a good plan and not using a Nydus Network to increase the mobility of these Ultralisks is bad too. Allowing the Terran to get air superiority (and thus VISION for the tanks) is bad as well ... So you're suggesting using a nydus near the tanks to help ultralisk getting into range ? have you allready have used a nydus ? seriously ? Allowing terran to get air superiority... hmmm.... against viking + raven + thor what do you want to do ?
You dont think I am that dumb, do you? You use the Nydus to strike EVERYWHERE ELSE and that is the bases.
In one of those example matches - I cant remember which one - the Zerg successfully Overlord-dropped the island expo on LT. Afterwards the 5-6 Overlords were in a somewhat dangerous position due to several Vikings being close. In these situations it might be a good idea to have the Nydus as a "backup evac" for your ground forces, so you can get them out even if the Overlords are shot down. The expo had quite a lot of minerals too and it might have helped a lot to set one up there too, to have a base in the back of the Terran.
Air superiority
- "must have" for a Terran mech to maximize the efficiency of tanks
- therefore it is a "requirement" to deny it to the Terran if you want to beat him
- Air superiority is gained by the Terran through Vikings and Ravens mostly; Turrets, Marines and Thors "only" give localized air control
The Viking:
- anti-air damage 10(+4 vs armored), 2 seconds delay between shots, range 9
- armor: 0
- hit points: 125
The Corruptor
- damage: 14(+6 vs massive), 1,9 seconds delay between shots, range 6
- armor: 2
- hit points: 200
The Raven
- most efficient kill method with the Seeker missile
- 1 Raven = 3 Vikings (Gas-wise)
So if I compare these two the Viking seems to be a lot better, because it has a longer range and you can do the "fancy range dance" to shoot down the Corruptors, BUT the armor on the corruptors and their much higher hit points should even that out. The most important thing is the numbers you have on the battlefield and the higher the Viking count becomes the harder it will get to gain air superiority, BUT the Terran wanted to go mech and wont make 50 Vikings, right? If he does you could easily build lots of ground forces and win.
- 9 Corruptors are needed to shoot down a Viking in one volley
- 16 Vikings are needed to shoot down a Corruptor in one volley
- Zerg should not allow the Terran his "peace and quiet" to build lots of Ravens
The point of the Corruptor is also that the "other anti air" of the Terran really sucks against it. Thors do 4 damage each shot due to the 2 armor and Marines 3 ... The point is to have sufficiently high numbers of Corruptors to win in an even fight and then push the Vikings into a corner where they can not do the "range dance" anymore. Once you have removed their air force you can replenish your units faster than he can and gain air superiority easily. Upgrading the armor on the Corruptors will make Marines practically useless and if you have too many Corruptors you can always morph them into Brood Lords and start owning the Tanks and bases. You dont need that many, just enough to punch a hole into the Terran ground defenses so your Ultralisks and Zerglings and Roaches can move in to destroy the rest.
Brood Lords - even a single one - make Tanks kill each other with Splash damage. USE THIS to get rid of the expensive units in a rather cheap way.
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you guys should probably watch the day9 where TLO plays against mech...
anways... I don't think terran mech is overpowered since I could never win with it against zerg, but whatever...
anyways... Sheth doesn't suck, he happens to be one of the best zergs there are right now... he was just pointing out that he didn't know how to beat mech, and trying to face it head on or in any kind of fight really, with a 200/200 mech army is just like suicide. And... anything on the ground was something that he figured out didn't work once the army maxed...
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I think that some of the zerg players are letting their competitive nature spill out a little bit, which I totally understand and respect. But that is why I always look at the opinions of strong random or multiple race players. Mainly because they get both ends of the story. And still even if something seems strong (I hate the word imba) to everybody, people seem to forget that it doesn't take a day to figure out how to deal with some strategy or style or sometimes even a month.
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On June 11 2010 18:27 aznhockeyboy16 wrote:
you guys should probably watch the day9 where TLO plays against mech....
Exactly.. to quote TLO directly from that episode, "You can't face a terran mech army in a straight up fight, but you can abuse his immobility."
I don't understand why people think that something is imbalanced just because you can't a-move into it. It's ridiculous the amount of "IS ______ IMBA?? I CANT WIN VS IT IN A STRAIGHT UP FIGHT!" type posts that go on around here lately. Doesn't anyone remember SC1 at all? lol. There were so many units and army compositions you had to actually do other things to, to beat them rather than a-move into them.
And then to make matters worse, Blizzard actually is convinced then that things like tanks are overpowered and are in the exact same mindset of "if people can't a-move into it, it definitely needs to be nerfed"
zzzzzzzz.
This is what makes SC2 boring, people. Who honestly wants to watch two armies a-move into each other every single match rather than have actual dynamic movement and positioning and attacks.
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On June 11 2010 06:37 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2010 05:56 Graven wrote:
There was nothing Sheth could have done. And the argument that he should have gone all-in earlier is ridiculous. no single army composition should be unbeatable...especially something as simple to create as mass siege tanks. Oh come on ... Sheth let QXC have free reign of the Skies and with that came his doom. I think IdrA had a match with a TON of Corruptors and just a dash of Brood Lords which he won relatively easily. "There is nothing he could have done" is just the easy way out of trying to think ... thats basically giving up. Dont blame the others if you do that; it was the same with the Marauder builds at the beginning of beta and the upgrade for concussive shell would not really stop anyone from doing exactly the same stuff now; with Stim Pack being cheaper now it is almost the same cost ... but people have figured out how to beat that. Just watch the "TLO vs JinrO" game from Day[9] daily 131. The difference here is that JinrO does NOT use much air, which allows TLO to use his Overlords much more compared to other matches. Air dominance is the key to beating mech and if the Terran is freaking out with TONS of Vikings he will have A LOT less mech units and you could switch to ground really fast and waltz over his few tanks. Its really very very simple, but no one tried it. I havent seen a TvZ yet, where the Zerg had air dominance (mass corruptors and a few Brood Lords) and lost to a mass of mech.
The difference in the TLO vs. Jinro game was the map -- there was just too much space for Jinro to try and defend. If Sheth played QXC on Meta, I'd bet on Sheth. And going Corrupters/Brolords at the end wouldn't have mattered -- could he have rushed to them and won? Maybe, maybe not...the problem still remains that an unbeatable army like the one QXC had should not be possible...and if it is, it shouldn't be so easy to achieve.
I think another key point is the flexibility for Terran...there's really no way to know exactly what they're doing. You can scout out a Factory, start going air to prep for mass mech, and then face a big ball of MMM (assuming they made the factory just for the Starport. There ability to switch playstyles so quickly should prevent them from creating a final army like that -- currently, they have it both ways, which prevents Zerg from reacting all-in one way or another.
To be completely honest, this argument is really silly. I'm finding it impossible to even understand the perspective of someone who doesn't think Terran are OP on many maps right now.
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On June 11 2010 09:20 MassAirUnits wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2010 09:09 Trok67 wrote:On June 11 2010 06:51 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2010 05:54 Graven wrote:Watch this five game series between QXC and Sheth. If you want to save time, just watch Game 2, 4, and 5. If you still think the game is balanced...lol. http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/7347080 You can only claim that the game is imbalanced if Sheth played perfectly. He didnt and his strategy was flawed. Running 8 Ultralisks into a dozen sieged tanks is NOT a good plan and not using a Nydus Network to increase the mobility of these Ultralisks is bad too. Allowing the Terran to get air superiority (and thus VISION for the tanks) is bad as well ... So you're suggesting using a nydus near the tanks to help ultralisk getting into range ? have you allready have used a nydus ? seriously ? Allowing terran to get air superiority... hmmm.... against viking + raven + thor what do you want to do ? I would like to know how Terran managed to get 5 bases worth of gas for tank/thor/viking/raven while Zerg apparently has jack squat.
Watch games 2,4, and 5 and you'll see how.
All of you can sit here and write he could have done this or that, but what you can't do is tell me that Sheth could do anything against that final army.
Also, I've already explained why going all-in to a strat early can backfire due to Terran's easy switchup abilities. You're all discussing this as if Sheth has map hacks...watching the replay is totally different than playing a game.
And finally, I played Random most of the Beta, but admit that Zerg is probably my favorite race. I'd like to think I'm looking at this very objectively though.
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On June 11 2010 21:29 Graven wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2010 06:37 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2010 05:56 Graven wrote:
There was nothing Sheth could have done. And the argument that he should have gone all-in earlier is ridiculous. no single army composition should be unbeatable...especially something as simple to create as mass siege tanks. Oh come on ... Sheth let QXC have free reign of the Skies and with that came his doom. I think IdrA had a match with a TON of Corruptors and just a dash of Brood Lords which he won relatively easily. "There is nothing he could have done" is just the easy way out of trying to think ... thats basically giving up. Dont blame the others if you do that; it was the same with the Marauder builds at the beginning of beta and the upgrade for concussive shell would not really stop anyone from doing exactly the same stuff now; with Stim Pack being cheaper now it is almost the same cost ... but people have figured out how to beat that. Just watch the "TLO vs JinrO" game from Day[9] daily 131. The difference here is that JinrO does NOT use much air, which allows TLO to use his Overlords much more compared to other matches. Air dominance is the key to beating mech and if the Terran is freaking out with TONS of Vikings he will have A LOT less mech units and you could switch to ground really fast and waltz over his few tanks. Its really very very simple, but no one tried it. I havent seen a TvZ yet, where the Zerg had air dominance (mass corruptors and a few Brood Lords) and lost to a mass of mech. The difference in the TLO vs. Jinro game was the map -- there was just too much space for Jinro to try and defend. If Sheth played QXC on Meta, I'd bet on Sheth. And going Corrupters/Brolords at the end wouldn't have mattered -- could he have rushed to them and won? Maybe, maybe not...the problem still remains that an unbeatable army like the one QXC had should not be possible...and if it is, it shouldn't be so easy to achieve. I think another key point is the flexibility for Terran...there's really no way to know exactly what they're doing. You can scout out a Factory, start going air to prep for mass mech, and then face a big ball of MMM (assuming they made the factory just for the Starport. There ability to switch playstyles so quickly should prevent them from creating a final army like that -- currently, they have it both ways, which prevents Zerg from reacting all-in one way or another. To be completely honest, this argument is really silly. I'm finding it impossible to even understand the perspective of someone who doesn't think Terran are OP on many maps right now.
Obviously Metalopolis is a rather open map, BUT bottlenecks can help screwing up a Terran mech army too. There are two other differences though:
- Jinro has ZERO!!!! Vikings and this leaves TLO with "air dominance" (Overlords) and he uses that to spread creep
- TLO attacks in several places at once. Several attack groups of 3 Ultralisks plus maybe a few Speedlings attack Jinros rather spread out positions. Using a drop on one and a small attack force on another base, using 1-2 Infestors with burrowed movement to punish the Terran for not having Turrets / Ravens as detectors and generally spreading creep for maximized Zerg mobility are key tactics of TLO which keep JinrO on the defensive and which eventually lets him GG.
The key component is to have air dominance as the Zerg and if you have that you have the Terran on the defensive. If the Terran does the "extreme turtling" he contains himself and you can simply take every other base on the map and wear him down with twice as many resources.
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EPT
