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How not to throw away your money
+ Show Spoiler +Just my two cents on the training issue: I don't really think people should be paying for lessons at this point in the beta. Wait until the game has established itself for a bit, first. The only real benefit of "gosu" training sessions, IMO, is that you get to make connections with the top players, and thus have better practice partners who might be willing to discuss strategies and practice timings.
- Saracen
Good mechanics is what makes the difference between being copper and being platinum. Of course build orders and strategies play an important role, but if you have solid mechanics you can easily stay at the platinum level regardless of how much they tweak the units. So teaching a copper player how to macro/micro/scout properly and whatnot and giving them the general unit counters can easily bring them up to gold or platinum.
- Kantutan
There are many free resources to learn how to play. If you spend a lot of time practicing, watching replays, reading threads, discussing strategy, you will eventually understand how to play this game. This game is no different from any other sport, musical instrument, field of science, etc. Probably simpler. If you feel you can learn quickly enough without help, do not throw away your money.
-yours truly
On the subject of being paid to teach starcraft:
It doesn't really matter what the price is as long as both participants are honest and aware of what they're getting. Let us not forget the deadweight loss caused by intervention in the market (Econ 101). If someone is happy to pay and someone else is happy to sell, then there is more "happy" in the world as long as there are no negative externalities (i.e: scammers giving TL a bad name.)
Naturally, the better and more well known the coach is, the higher price the price he can demand. People in iNcontrol's thread are raging because they don't have the recognition to demand such a price. It's true that what separates good players from the best is practice and the ability to react well/perform during the game. Though neither of these can really be taught over a few days, if people are willing to pay a higher price to hang out/learn from iNcontrol & co, don't get your panties in a bunch.
On my next point:
I posted in iNcontrol's training camp thread that I'd be willing to get a silver/gold player to platinum in a week for a small (undisclosed) fee. This was tongue-in-cheek, but believed i could do it given the trainee was reasonably intelligent and willing to practice.
To my surprise, I'd actually piqued someone's interest. I'd spent time helping out beginners from TL in game before, but I never thought someone would be willing to pay for it so I haven't offered very often. Starcraft is a relatively simple (read: not complex) game. Beginners still get amazed when they see forcefield fuck up roach positioning. (OMG *__*)
I've seen threads of people offering to coach players, but there seem to be many buyer's of sc2 knowledge and many sellers of sc2 knowledge who do not meet because of lack of communication.
Which leads me to my point:
Wouldn't teamliquid be a better place if bored expert players and clueless beginners could be matched together? Why not create a system to allow them to meet? If money is exchange, that's fine. Include a readme to prevent absolute beginners from getting taken advantage of.
There are tons of people knowledgeable enough to coach players, I'd wager that there are enough people willing to teach that lessons will be free soon. People enjoy this game.
A fee doesn't mean "i'm trying to jack as much money as you as I can." A fee means "I enjoy this game and I want to stay involved, any compensation for my time would encourage it". If pros wanted to make money, they'd get a real job. Starcraft coaches outside of Korea will never make enough to buy noodles.
This is just a good chance to have fun and meet new people. If we meet and become good friend's I'd gladly help you for free.
Let me now shamelessly self-promote: private lessons! Free! First come first serve! I will start asking for money if i get bored/takes too long/you are a douchebag. I will probably also start asking if there are no other trainers ( pricing power ftw, but doubtful to occur).
I hope a better system will be developed eventually.
For now, post here if you need a coach or would like to coach:
I am: trainer
Name: BULLDOZERRR.hooha
Location: USA
League/points/record: Platinum/1500/35-22
Communication: I've got a mike and webcam, can use vent/skype.
Fee: Free for now.
Status: Currently unoccupied
Other: I'm very familiar with tvp, pzv. Okay with zvt. I cheese almost every tvt, zvz, pvp, because they are boring.
Trainee example:
I am: trainee
Name: Noob.Beginner
Location: USA
League/points/record: plastic/-500/0-100
Communication: I've got a mike and webcam, can use vent/skype.
Fee: I am too poor to pay
Status: No one is teaching me!
Other: HELP ME PLEASE! I like zerg!
Make it simple, no trashing other players or primping yourself.
Use PM's to contact each other to keep the thread clean. Change your status if you're free/unable to take any more trainees.
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I'm down for a free lesson or two if you're offering  What's your preferred race?
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On May 11 2010 18:38 willeesmalls wrote:
I cheese almost every tvt, zvz, pvp, because they are boring
thats not a good way to teach...
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On May 11 2010 18:58 OPSavioR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2010 18:38 willeesmalls wrote:
I cheese almost every tvt, zvz, pvp, because they are boring
thats not a good way to teach...
I agree, which is why I'm telling everyone who wants to learn those matchups to stay away from me. They are not fun for me. If I absolutely need to win those I'll start playing them seriously. It's not as if I don't understand that zealots beat stalkers without forcefields. Please try to keep the thread clean, you could have pm'd me this.
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it honestly makes no sense what so ever to PAY someone to teach/coach u starcraft when theres guides/strats u can look up on and study FOR FREE.
its just big names trying to capitalize on the fact that they are big names so they can make a lil bit of money for teaching stupid ppl who are stupid enought to pay for these lessons. hell u can get good just from watching Day 8s dailies and thats completely free,
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I think teaching would be better if you can get another person to be 'the opponent'. Since the AI sucks right now, 'the opponent' would basically just be a higher level player that can keep up with the trainer and also do certain builds if the situation calls for it. The trainee can either observe while the trainer plays while explaining what he is doing, or he can let the trainee play and give tips while spectating as a ref.
I offer my services for this role btw. Mid-level platinum player decent with all races (In gold right now though because I worked the account up from copper and hardly ladder). I love doing custom games and trying to help people, hate laddering because it's too intense 
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On May 11 2010 19:07 Ballistixz wrote:
it honestly makes no sense what so ever to PAY someone to teach/coach u starcraft when theres guides/strats u can look up on and study FOR FREE.
its just big names trying to capitalize on the fact that they are big names so they can make a lil bit of money for teaching stupid ppl who are stupid enought to pay for these lessons. hell u can get good just from watching Day 8s dailies and thats completely free,
Arg, Day 9 you mean! You'll make him facepalm like when Husky said Nick Plott instead of Sean Plott
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On May 11 2010 19:07 Ballistixz wrote:
it honestly makes no sense what so ever to PAY someone to teach/coach u starcraft when theres guides/strats u can look up on and study FOR FREE.
its just big names trying to capitalize on the fact that they are big names so they can make a lil bit of money for teaching stupid ppl who are stupid enought to pay for these lessons. hell u can get good just from watching Day 8s dailies and thats completely free,
Did you read the OP. Honestly if I were a mod I would have temp banned you. Yes there are tons of ways to learn this game. I have stated that the difference between a good player and the best is not basic knowledge, but control over mechanics, ability to react and game instinct.
If someone still wants to pay to learn, and someone else is willing to be paid to teach, stay out of the way. Create a readme to educate beginners on how to learn. We do have a strategy section. Try and keep unnecessary posts out of this thread.
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On May 11 2010 19:07 Ballistixz wrote:
it honestly makes no sense what so ever to PAY someone to teach/coach u starcraft when theres guides/strats u can look up on and study FOR FREE.
its just big names trying to capitalize on the fact that they are big names so they can make a lil bit of money for teaching stupid ppl who are stupid enought to pay for these lessons. hell u can get good just from watching Day 8s dailies and thats completely free,
There are tons of resources to look up for free or extremely inexpensive on every subject. If it's so fucking easy, why are you not awesome?
Excelling at something like Starcraft is a ton of hard work. You can do it without a coach -- that's obvious -- but that's only because other people don't have coaches, so you're not missing anything. Coaches help people get better. Fucking Tiger Woods has a coach. Why? Because a third party perspective and someones whose goal it is to help you become better is exceedingly valuable.
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cause of the patching the game is changing a lot, thats the reason why there arent much well written guides and thats for me a reason why payed coaching didnt make much sense at the moment.
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if that is the case then why are there no new big prodigies coming out of the woodwork after taking these so called "valuable lessons"? almost all the top players in starcraft became top players without the need of coaching and so can anyone else.
what it comes down to is your own skill. sure you can have coaches teaching u the game and helping u, but it means nothing if you cant execute on that. once your in game your not going to have a coach whispering in your ear telling you what to do. it will all come down to your decisions as a player.
a "3 day only training camp" for example is not going to suddenly make u a top player lol.
and trying to compare something like golf to starcraft? real life sports is nothing at all like video games. theres football coaches, theres basketball coaches, boxing coaches, etc etc. but are they halo 2 coaches? are there MW2 coaches? SSBM or SSBB coaches? no, all those top playeres became good from there own practices against others, they did not need to PAY someone to help them.
obviously someone trying to help u get good at something is valuable, but when it comes to something like video games PAYING them to do so is just stupid imo. theres no reason why you shouldnt become a good player without hours of practice and hours of viewing your replays. you can do this without paying a personal tutor unless ur just lazy.
+ your paying for knowledge to a game thats still in a BETA. alot of the strategies that work today wont work in the future when the game is finally released. theres alot of things that are not even set in stone yet. the best they can teach you is about how to macro/micro properly and manage your units and etc, but u can go to the TL wiki and learn that shit or even watch youtube vids.
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I am: trainee
Name: bballgaurd.kzr
Location: USA
League/points/record: silver/1050/40-36
Communication: I've got a mike and webcam, can use vent/skype.
Status: freinds help me out if anyone else wants to free id apreciate it
Other: i only play zerg
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On May 11 2010 20:01 violett wrote:
cause of the patching the game is changing a lot, thats the reason why there arent much well written guides and thats for me a reason why payed coaching didnt make much sense at the moment.
Good mechanics is what makes the difference between being copper and being platinum. Of course build orders and strategies play an important role, but if you have solid mechanics you can easily stay at the platinum level regardless of how much they tweak the units. So teaching a copper player how to macro/micro/scout properly and whatnot and giving them the general unit counters can easily bring them up to gold or platinum.
On a side note, I would actually love if someone took up my offer on helping them coach. Plenty of free time right now and always up for mass gaming. Also, your rants don't belong on this thread Ballistixz and no one cares for it.
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I posted at about 3 am PST, OP was in vent 10 minutes later and in game 10 minutes after that. I asked for help and got it promptly. Much appreciated Bulldozer. A 40 minute game obviously can't teach me how to be a pro but it certainly speaks for the OP's intentions. Thanks again.
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On May 11 2010 19:09 Kantutan wrote:I think teaching would be better if you can get another person to be 'the opponent'. Since the AI sucks right now, 'the opponent' would basically just be a higher level player that can keep up with the trainer and also do certain builds if the situation calls for it. The trainee can either observe while the trainer plays while explaining what he is doing, or he can let the trainee play and give tips while spectating as a ref. I offer my services for this role btw. Mid-level platinum player decent with all races (In gold right now though because I worked the account up from copper and hardly ladder). I love doing custom games and trying to help people, hate laddering because it's too intense
I completely agree with this for players who know what they're doing.
I just "trained" pathology. Found out he was midlevel platinum player. We talked a bit of strategy then had a practice match. He almost beat me ;'( That would looked completely awful.
I will reiterate that SC2 is a game that is relatively easy to understand. Once you understand you just need to practice. Some newer players may need people to walk them through things.
@ Ballistixz:
Please get out of my thread. Yes people want to make money, we are not all so altruistic to spend our time to help someone we are not acquainted with no compensation. Yes you can learn SC2 yourself by doing a variety of things online. Yes the difference between a good player and the best is practice and gut instinct. So yes, once you learn how to play SC2, you need to practice and develop your game instincts to be a top player. You have repeated everything I've said in the OP.
But there are people who may want/need help. They aren't stupid for wanting help from a better player. It's not unreasonable for people to pay a few bucks to get the information you spent countless hours acquiring looking through and analyzing threads/replays/streams. Even better if the they can get it free.
Would you like a coach? You obviously don't understand SC2 since you cannot even readproperly. Take a hike.
Edit: I feel like I'm screaming myself hoarse. Can we make a thread where it's easy for someone to come in and find a trainer/trainee/practice partner? Let's model this after the practice partner thread.
Post your info so it's easy to see Kantutan! I appreciate the positive feedback and good intentions.
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I am: trainer assistant!
Name: Bacon.bacon
Location: Canada (West Coast, PST)
League/points/record: Gold/1200/18-7 (had to work account from copper, am mid-Platinum)
Communication: Unfortunately no mic, so MSN or through SC2
Fee: Free
Status: Currently unoccupied
Other: Comfortable with every race, decent understanding of most build orders and matchups due to watching a LOT of tourneys and of course playing the game myself. Up for mass gaming, do not care if I lose in custom games, and basically offering to be an opponent for a trainer/trainee to either play standard or do a specific build order you want to try something against.
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I am: trainee
Name: Saracen.teamliquid
Location: USA
League/points/record: Platinum/1750/45-21
Communication: I've got a mike and webcam, can use vent/skype.
Fee: I am too poor to pay
Status: No one is teaching me!
Other: I use Zerg as my main. Will hopefully be able to ladder some more after my account gets fixed (says I have to replay placement matches at the moment).
Just my two cents on the training issue: I don't really think people should be paying for lessons at this point in the beta. Wait until the game has established itself for a bit, first. The only real benefit of "gosu" training sessions, IMO, is that you get to make connections with the top players, and thus have better practice partners who might be willing to discuss strategies and practice timings.
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willeesmall i actually was agreeing with most of what u said except for one point and that is about "paying someone to teach you starcraft" that is what i am arguing. no need to turn this into a flame war.
if you cant take other peoples opinions then you shouldn't make a thread about something like that in the first place when you know very well its going to start a debate on the subject.
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i think i got a PvP with you b4 and u played normal and i won =.=
anyway, im open to anyone need advice ^^ and anyone willing to give advice
I am in Plat, 41-29 (or smthing like that)(~1200s since i jumped from gold they cut down my points T__T) (notice that i hvnt had time to play "full time" yet)
Main race: Protoss > Zerg > T (sucks in using Terran since 1998  )
Nickname: NoBody.lns (make sure you said that you are a trainee or a trainer ^^)
other: using MBP mac/window, have mic and webcam built-in, using vent/skype/yahoo ^^
P/s: Im looking for help to setup a stream on my computer ^^, no clue how to xD
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heh, Machine's taught me more in 3 hours of lessons and countless tips off the clock than you ever can.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 11 2010 20:54 Ballistixz wrote:
willeesmall i actually was agreeing with most of what u said except for one point and that is about "paying someone to teach you starcraft" that is what i am arguing. no need to turn this into a flame war.
if you cant take other peoples opinions then you shouldn't make a thread about something like that in the first place when you know very well its going to start a debate on the subject.
There are now two threads full of what you said. After inc's thread and as much detail as I put into the OP, you decided to say "you must be stupid if you're willing to pay for tutoring". If you had said "You can learn this game yourself if you spend enough time" I would have added it to the beginners guide. Too bad now i get credit.
This was not a thread to start a debate. This was a thread modeled after the practice partner thread. I included a longwinded explanation to avoid answering to the things you have said.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 11 2010 20:56 NB wrote:i think i got a PvP with you b4 and u played normal and i won =.= anyway, im open to anyone need advice ^^ and anyone willing to give advice I am in Plat, 41-29 (or smthing like that)(~1200s since i jumped from gold they cut down my points T__T) (notice that i hvnt had time to play "full time" yet) Main race: Protoss > Zerg > T (sucks in using Terran since 1998 ) Nickname: NoBody.lns (make sure you said that you are a trainee or a trainer ^^) other: using MBP mac/window, have mic and webcam built-in, using vent/skype/yahoo ^^ P/s: Im looking for help to setup a stream on my computer ^^, no clue how to xD
Please cut out unnecessary information and list information following protocol! All I wanted to do was be the guy who started the thread that connected the pros and shmoes :''''(
Has everybody forgotten how to read?
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On May 11 2010 19:07 Ballistixz wrote:
it honestly makes no sense what so ever to PAY someone to teach/coach u starcraft when theres guides/strats u can look up on and study FOR FREE.
its just big names trying to capitalize on the fact that they are big names so they can make a lil bit of money for teaching stupid ppl who are stupid enought to pay for these lessons. hell u can get good just from watching Day 8s dailies and thats completely free,
may not make sense to you, but it may to others. is there no reason to go to school (assuming education is your goal) when there are books in the library that u can access for free? there are some things that some people cannot or are not willing to learn on their own. maybe they prefer alternative learning methods. if they pay for it, thats their deal. just sayin. i'm pretty neutral on this "issue"
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On May 11 2010 19:30 ilnp wrote:
Fucking Tiger Woods has a coach.
"Fucking Tiger" Woods? Dude, that's a low-blow joke  I kid, I kid.
Nice thread, I would have to say I agree with most things said here. Training for this game is VERY different for each skill-lvl though. There is a difference between low-lvl "try not to get 1000 minerals and gas" macro or high-lvl timing pushes. For now, I'll just keep working on my mechanics, they still need a lot of work
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I am: Trainer
Name: Necrosjef.Necrosjef
Location: EU
League/points/record: Platinum/1500~
Communication: I've got a mic can use vent/skype
Fee: Free
Status: Avaliable at most times.
Other: I use Zerg as my main. Played about 500 games, been playing beta since it started. Good knowledge of ZvX matchups and also good knowledge of PvX match ups.
Only other thing I would mention is that if you want training then I would prefer someone who is atleast 16 years old pref 18 years old and someone who is relatively active. Would be better for me to have someone who is Gold/Low Plat aswell teaching things like "Immortals do extra damage to Roaches" isn't really my cup of tea.
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I am: trainee
Name: Kriden.inc
Location: EU
League/points/record: silver/1400~
Communication: Microphone, VT, Skype & TS
Fee: Can be arranged...
Status: No one is teaching me!
Other:
Main Race: Terran.
I'm 20years old, can practice on daily basis. Quick learner unfortunatly not much experience with
RTS games. Love to learn
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On May 11 2010 20:02 Ballistixz wrote:
if that is the case then why are there no new big prodigies coming out of the woodwork after taking these so called "valuable lessons"? almost all the top players in starcraft became top players without the need of coaching and so can anyone else.
what it comes down to is your own skill. sure you can have coaches teaching u the game and helping u, but it means nothing if you cant execute on that. once your in game your not going to have a coach whispering in your ear telling you what to do. it will all come down to your decisions as a player.
a "3 day only training camp" for example is not going to suddenly make u a top player lol.
and trying to compare something like golf to starcraft? real life sports is nothing at all like video games. theres football coaches, theres basketball coaches, boxing coaches, etc etc. but are they halo 2 coaches? are there MW2 coaches? SSBM or SSBB coaches? no, all those top playeres became good from there own practices against others, they did not need to PAY someone to help them.
obviously someone trying to help u get good at something is valuable, but when it comes to something like video games PAYING them to do so is just stupid imo. theres no reason why you shouldnt become a good player without hours of practice and hours of viewing your replays. you can do this without paying a personal tutor unless ur just lazy.
+ your paying for knowledge to a game thats still in a BETA. alot of the strategies that work today wont work in the future when the game is finally released. theres alot of things that are not even set in stone yet. the best they can teach you is about how to macro/micro properly and manage your units and etc, but u can go to the TL wiki and learn that shit or even watch youtube vids.
coaches do a lot more than tell you "roach beats a marauder". the very fact that you can't imagine what a coach can teach you is a prime example why you probably aren't any good at the game. do you know why there's no halo 2, mw2, or whatever video game coaches?
BECAUSE THERE'S NO FUCKING MONEY IN BEING ANY GOOD AT THEM, AND 85% OF THE PEOPLE THAT PLAY THEM ARE LONELY ASSHOLES WITH NOTHING BETTER TO DO THAN POST ON THE INTERNET ABOUT HOW STUPID IT IS TO HAVE VIDEOGAME LESSONS
by your logic, why are there even football coaches? i mean, the coach can tell you to run all you want, you either run fast or you don't. right? why are there basketball coaches? put the ball in the fucking hoop, run to the other side, duh. job done, no reason they get paid whatever. no ones paying $20 an hour to learn some super secret build order -- anyone can just check a replay of the latest zotac and copy it and they'll be fine (although a coach might say -- here's a super solid build order that should fare well vs anyone near your level, do it repeatedly so you get comfortable with midgame). they're going to point out your biggest weaknesses, big things you need to fix, and how you need to fix them.
if you want to be better at starcraft 2, you need to do several things. if you want to accelerate or maximize the process, and you have the cash, pay someone to help you out. there's no dishonor in it.
you talk about how all the gosus at SC2 become gosus without coaches -- well of course they do, there are no coaches. but let me let you in on a little elite gamer secret: every elite gamer is a coach. he coaches himself, and he coaches the groups of players he practices with. there's no bonafide coach:student relationship, because no one has any money to pay a coach and there's not much to being a full time coach. everyone is good, and they're practicing for themselves, and to get the benefit of coaching they help others. two good players will kick a few hours down playing the same matchup, same map, trying different builds against each other and different tactics. they might open up a custom game and just try different unit micro vs each other. they'll ask each other about replays and things they did wrong. they do all this because everyone needs help and coaching, and this is how you make it up in a solitary activity where there's no coach position.
you wouldn't know that though, because you suck and have a hateful attitude towards life. the way you're pmsing its like your crack addict sister stole $20 from your wallet to buy some crack and you hate crack now, except crack are the starcraft lessons. tear out your fucking tampon, switch to maxi pads, and stop being an asshole.
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I am: trainer
Name: AMSTAFF.eyes
Location: EU
League/points/record: Platinum 1650 T and P user, ESL international Ladder Rank 3
Communication: ICQ/MSN
Fee: PM me (belongs what you want to learn and how timeconsuming it is for example watching 1 Replay with advice is free)
Status: Currently unoccupied
Other: PvP, PvZ, PvT, TvP, TvZ
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I am: trainer
Name: Konsume.Quebec
Location: Canada / Quebec (speak both French and English)
League/points/record: Platinum us: 1507 eu: 1611
Communication: I own a ventrilo server
Fee: Free - As long as you are not totaly retarded --- Also since I don't ask you to pay, I reserve the right to cansel at anytime... and also won't spend more than 30min-1hrs per day
Status: Currently have 2 friends that I teach but I wouldn't mind helping 1-2 more players with past RTS experience (aka will take silver, gold and low platinum 1100 and lower)
Other: I'm currently playing Zerg, (since the new reset) but I was also playing Protoss at around the same level. My best matchup is ZvZ (100% win) than followed by ZvP (70% win) and my worst is ZvT (about 10%)... so you understand that I won't be able to help you with your ZvT as I reallllly suck myself and I'm currently trying to find a way to beat them.
I'm also a
I am: trainee
Name: Konsume.Quebec
Location: Canada / Quebec (speak both French and English)
League/points/record: Platinum us: 1507 eu: 1611
Communication: I own a ventrilo server
Fee: Free - or verrrrry low fees - not verry rich right now!
Status: Would be willing to start anytime!
Other: I'm currently trying to learn Zerg. My ZvT is what I need help with. If you want to be my mentor please be 1700+ zerg/random as if you're lower you probably won't be able to help me. I have a nice War3 RoC back ground (aka top 5 bnet)... and getting back to RTS after 5 years of WoW (yes... ouch my brain!!)
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I am: trainee
Name: Molk.Molkovien
Location: Denmark
League/points/record: Silver
Communication: Skype/Ventrillo
Fee: If I get an hour free to see if it works, we can discuss it.
Status: Sadly can't today, But free tomorrow evening
Other: Not really played much RTS since Age of empires, Could use some help mainly figuring out when i need to Micro more. Currently playing Protoss
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I am: trainee
Name: Jetty.virtuosity
Location: USA
League/points/record: platinum 11-5, 1155 rating
Communication: I've got a mic and can use skype.
Fee: Don't got any $ but, I can trade halo lessons for sc2 lessons if anyone's interested lol.
Status: Just finished finals so I have more time to play and get better. This is more to network with really good players than direct "you teach me" styled lessons.
Other: I'm familiar with competitive gaming and the dedication required to be at the top because of my competing and maintaining pro status in Halo 3 events with MLG.
Race: I play zerg mainly, but I'm equally good with protoss and my terran sucks.
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I am: trainee
Name: Finesse.Guile
Location: USA
League/points/record: Gold/1117/10-4
Communication: I've got a microphone, skype / vent / aim / irc / livestream
Fee: small to medium fees depending on the coach
Status: Contact me if you want to teach me
Other: I wanna switch to random from Zerg. I am reasonably good at macro mechanics but break down fairly quickly when getting harassed. I also lose to bullshit fucking strats even when I see them coming.
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On May 11 2010 18:38 willeesmalls wrote:
How not to throw away your money
.... [/b]
Paying for lessons from a reputable organization is completely different from just hiring a random guy on TL who made a post that he's in Platinum and considers himself prepared to give you lessons. There are definite benefits to hiring someone with a good reputation in the community who is associated with a group of similarly reputable people offering money back guarantees for their services, with long lists of satisfied (repeat) students. Like so many things in life, with lessons on any topic, you can expect to get what you paid for when dealing with reputable persons and organizations.
A lot of BW skills translate directly to SC2. I was 2nd place WCG USA last year, 3rd the year prior. Incontrol was champ in 07. Lz was top 3 last year. Machine was top 4 the last 2 years. There's a reason people pay for us to teach them how to play mechanically - we proved we could do it in BW.
Incontrol in particular has been teaching BW lessons for a long time now. I taught guitar for 5 years and piano for 8, and have been in mentoring roles professional for years. So our students get the benefits of that experience, and our staff have the ability to go to us for advice and their own self education in this area.
All that said: I do applaud lower skilled players helping eachother out. When you take guitar lessons you don't necessarily have to go to Steve Vai to improve, but there will come a time (usually pretty quickly if you're serious) where that dude in your town giving cheap guitar lessons just can't help you anymore. It's also a great option for people who just can't afford professional instruction. The real risk is being given just plain wrong advice. Things a Silver or even low ranked Platinum player may believe beyond question to be absolute truths of playing the game could be, quite simply, wrong. Absolutely wrong. And it's harder to unlearn than it is to learn when it comes to fundamentals
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I am: trainee
Name: caldazar.caldazar
Location: USA
League/points/record: Silver/1400/46-45
Communication: I've got a mike and webcam, can use vent/skype.
Fee: Will probably buy you a small "thank you" gift, not really interested in paying per hour.
Status: No one is teaching me!
Other: I have been playing random lately, though I am much stronger at Protoss and Zerg and have been playing Protoss in Silver tourneys. I'd like to focus on basic mechanics, and in particular I'd like to learn how to practice. I feel like I can ladder for a while and not really get any better because I don't know how to identify holes in my game and drill bad habits away.
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On May 12 2010 00:15 ilnp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2010 20:02 Ballistixz wrote:
if that is the case then why are there no new big prodigies coming out of the woodwork after taking these so called "valuable lessons"? almost all the top players in starcraft became top players without the need of coaching and so can anyone else.
what it comes down to is your own skill. sure you can have coaches teaching u the game and helping u, but it means nothing if you cant execute on that. once your in game your not going to have a coach whispering in your ear telling you what to do. it will all come down to your decisions as a player.
a "3 day only training camp" for example is not going to suddenly make u a top player lol.
and trying to compare something like golf to starcraft? real life sports is nothing at all like video games. theres football coaches, theres basketball coaches, boxing coaches, etc etc. but are they halo 2 coaches? are there MW2 coaches? SSBM or SSBB coaches? no, all those top playeres became good from there own practices against others, they did not need to PAY someone to help them.
obviously someone trying to help u get good at something is valuable, but when it comes to something like video games PAYING them to do so is just stupid imo. theres no reason why you shouldnt become a good player without hours of practice and hours of viewing your replays. you can do this without paying a personal tutor unless ur just lazy.
+ your paying for knowledge to a game thats still in a BETA. alot of the strategies that work today wont work in the future when the game is finally released. theres alot of things that are not even set in stone yet. the best they can teach you is about how to macro/micro properly and manage your units and etc, but u can go to the TL wiki and learn that shit or even watch youtube vids. coaches do a lot more than tell you "roach beats a marauder". the very fact that you can't imagine what a coach can teach you is a prime example why you probably aren't any good at the game. do you know why there's no halo 2, mw2, or whatever video game coaches? BECAUSE THERE'S NO FUCKING MONEY IN BEING ANY GOOD AT THEM, AND 85% OF THE PEOPLE THAT PLAY THEM ARE LONELY ASSHOLES WITH NOTHING BETTER TO DO THAN POST ON THE INTERNET ABOUT HOW STUPID IT IS TO HAVE VIDEOGAME LESSONS by your logic, why are there even football coaches? i mean, the coach can tell you to run all you want, you either run fast or you don't. right? why are there basketball coaches? put the ball in the fucking hoop, run to the other side, duh. job done, no reason they get paid whatever. no ones paying $20 an hour to learn some super secret build order -- anyone can just check a replay of the latest zotac and copy it and they'll be fine (although a coach might say -- here's a super solid build order that should fare well vs anyone near your level, do it repeatedly so you get comfortable with midgame). they're going to point out your biggest weaknesses, big things you need to fix, and how you need to fix them. if you want to be better at starcraft 2, you need to do several things. if you want to accelerate or maximize the process, and you have the cash, pay someone to help you out. there's no dishonor in it. you talk about how all the gosus at SC2 become gosus without coaches -- well of course they do, there are no coaches. but let me let you in on a little elite gamer secret: every elite gamer is a coach. he coaches himself, and he coaches the groups of players he practices with. there's no bonafide coach:student relationship, because no one has any money to pay a coach and there's not much to being a full time coach. everyone is good, and they're practicing for themselves, and to get the benefit of coaching they help others. two good players will kick a few hours down playing the same matchup, same map, trying different builds against each other and different tactics. they might open up a custom game and just try different unit micro vs each other. they'll ask each other about replays and things they did wrong. they do all this because everyone needs help and coaching, and this is how you make it up in a solitary activity where there's no coach position. you wouldn't know that though, because you suck and have a hateful attitude towards life. the way you're pmsing its like your crack addict sister stole $20 from your wallet to buy some crack and you hate crack now, except crack are the starcraft lessons. tear out your fucking tampon, switch to maxi pads, and stop being an asshole.
stoped reading after this:
BECAUSE THERE'S NO FUCKING MONEY IN BEING ANY GOOD AT THEM, AND 85% OF THE PEOPLE THAT PLAY THEM ARE LONELY ASSHOLES WITH NOTHING BETTER TO DO THAN POST ON THE INTERNET ABOUT HOW STUPID IT IS TO HAVE VIDEOGAME LESSONS
next time you try to flame go do some research so you will look less like a retard. theres tournaments with prizes for those games i mentioned just like there is for starcraft.
but what really kills me is that you said that as if theres any good/real money to be made in starcraft over any of the other big name/popular games out there lol. but thx for proving my point in that your paying for something that you will not get any money for in return even if you do become good at it.
edit:
but let me let you in on a little elite gamer secret: every elite gamer is a coach. he coaches himself, and he coaches the groups of players he practices with. there's no bonafide coach:student relationship, because no one has any money to pay a coach and there's not much to being a full time coach. everyone is good, and they're practicing for themselves, and to get the benefit of coaching they help others.
thx again for proving my point and repeating what ive been saying since the beginning. again, next time you flame make sure you dont look like a retard while doing it.
and the next person that trys to compare golf/football/basketball/etc to starcraft needs to be hit with a fucking spiked metal bat that was dipped in molten lava. you want to know the diffrence between those sports and starcraft? want to know why theres so many coaches willing to coach ppl for it? BECAUSE YOU CAN MAKE A FUCKING CAREER OUT OF THOSE SPORTS. you can actually make a living being a professional basketball or football player. you cant make a living playing starcraft and the pros over in Korea are barely meeting ends meat when they play to earn money.
just think for a minute and learn all the money that is made playing football or basketball or other physical sports professionaly. now think of the money you MIGHT make if you try to play starcraft professionally. and im not talking about the koreans, im talking about over hear in America or even Europe.
just think of the average salary the pro koreans make from playing starcraft professionaly within a years time frame. now compare it to a pro football/basketball/golf player. please ppl stop being fucking retarded.
paying for the coaching is one thing, but trying to justify it by saying its the same/on par with physical sports is just stupid.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 12 2010 03:28 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2010 00:15 ilnp wrote:On May 11 2010 20:02 Ballistixz wrote:
if that is the case then why are there no new big prodigies coming out of the woodwork after taking these so called "valuable lessons"? almost all the top players in starcraft became top players without the need of coaching and so can anyone else.
what it comes down to is your own skill. sure you can have coaches teaching u the game and helping u, but it means nothing if you cant execute on that. once your in game your not going to have a coach whispering in your ear telling you what to do. it will all come down to your decisions as a player.
a "3 day only training camp" for example is not going to suddenly make u a top player lol.
and trying to compare something like golf to starcraft? real life sports is nothing at all like video games. theres football coaches, theres basketball coaches, boxing coaches, etc etc. but are they halo 2 coaches? are there MW2 coaches? SSBM or SSBB coaches? no, all those top playeres became good from there own practices against others, they did not need to PAY someone to help them.
obviously someone trying to help u get good at something is valuable, but when it comes to something like video games PAYING them to do so is just stupid imo. theres no reason why you shouldnt become a good player without hours of practice and hours of viewing your replays. you can do this without paying a personal tutor unless ur just lazy.
+ your paying for knowledge to a game thats still in a BETA. alot of the strategies that work today wont work in the future when the game is finally released. theres alot of things that are not even set in stone yet. the best they can teach you is about how to macro/micro properly and manage your units and etc, but u can go to the TL wiki and learn that shit or even watch youtube vids. coaches do a lot more than tell you "roach beats a marauder". the very fact that you can't imagine what a coach can teach you is a prime example why you probably aren't any good at the game. do you know why there's no halo 2, mw2, or whatever video game coaches? BECAUSE THERE'S NO FUCKING MONEY IN BEING ANY GOOD AT THEM, AND 85% OF THE PEOPLE THAT PLAY THEM ARE LONELY ASSHOLES WITH NOTHING BETTER TO DO THAN POST ON THE INTERNET ABOUT HOW STUPID IT IS TO HAVE VIDEOGAME LESSONS by your logic, why are there even football coaches? i mean, the coach can tell you to run all you want, you either run fast or you don't. right? why are there basketball coaches? put the ball in the fucking hoop, run to the other side, duh. job done, no reason they get paid whatever. no ones paying $20 an hour to learn some super secret build order -- anyone can just check a replay of the latest zotac and copy it and they'll be fine (although a coach might say -- here's a super solid build order that should fare well vs anyone near your level, do it repeatedly so you get comfortable with midgame). they're going to point out your biggest weaknesses, big things you need to fix, and how you need to fix them. if you want to be better at starcraft 2, you need to do several things. if you want to accelerate or maximize the process, and you have the cash, pay someone to help you out. there's no dishonor in it. you talk about how all the gosus at SC2 become gosus without coaches -- well of course they do, there are no coaches. but let me let you in on a little elite gamer secret: every elite gamer is a coach. he coaches himself, and he coaches the groups of players he practices with. there's no bonafide coach:student relationship, because no one has any money to pay a coach and there's not much to being a full time coach. everyone is good, and they're practicing for themselves, and to get the benefit of coaching they help others. two good players will kick a few hours down playing the same matchup, same map, trying different builds against each other and different tactics. they might open up a custom game and just try different unit micro vs each other. they'll ask each other about replays and things they did wrong. they do all this because everyone needs help and coaching, and this is how you make it up in a solitary activity where there's no coach position. you wouldn't know that though, because you suck and have a hateful attitude towards life. the way you're pmsing its like your crack addict sister stole $20 from your wallet to buy some crack and you hate crack now, except crack are the starcraft lessons. tear out your fucking tampon, switch to maxi pads, and stop being an asshole. stoped reading after this: Show nested quote +BECAUSE THERE'S NO FUCKING MONEY IN BEING ANY GOOD AT THEM, AND 85% OF THE PEOPLE THAT PLAY THEM ARE LONELY ASSHOLES WITH NOTHING BETTER TO DO THAN POST ON THE INTERNET ABOUT HOW STUPID IT IS TO HAVE VIDEOGAME LESSONS next time you try to flame go do some research so you will look less like a retard. theres tournaments with prizes for those games i mentioned just like there is for starcraft. but what really kills me is that you said that as if theres any good/real money to be made in starcraft over any of the other big name/popular games out there lol. but thx for proving my point in that your paying for something that you will not get any money for in return even if you do become good at it. edit: Show nested quote +but let me let you in on a little elite gamer secret: every elite gamer is a coach. he coaches himself, and he coaches the groups of players he practices with. there's no bonafide coach:student relationship, because no one has any money to pay a coach and there's not much to being a full time coach. everyone is good, and they're practicing for themselves, and to get the benefit of coaching they help others. thx again for proving my point and repeating what ive been saying since the beginning. again, next time you flame make sure you dont look like a retard while doing it. and the next person that trys to compare golf/football/basketball/etc to starcraft needs to be hit with a fucking spiked metal bat that was dipped in molten lava. you want to know the diffrence between those sports and starcraft? want to know why theres so many coaches willing to coach ppl for it? BECAUSE YOU CAN MAKE A FUCKING CAREER OUT OF THOSE SPORTS. you can actually make a living being a professional basketball or football player. you cant make a living playing starcraft and the pros over in Korea are barely meeting ends meat when they play to earn money. just think for a minute and learn all the money that is made playing football or basketball or other physical sports professionaly. now think of the money you MIGHT make if you try to play starcraft professionally. and im not talking about the koreans, im talking about over hear in America or even Europe. just think of the average salary the pro koreans make from playing starcraft professionaly within a years time frame. now compare it to a pro football/basketball/golf player. please ppl stop being fucking retarded. paying for the coaching is one thing, but trying to justify it by saying its the same/on par with physical sports is just stupid.
your comprehension skills are weak. or my writing skills are weak. one of the two. or both. but i can't let it stand that you don't think i think you're stupid.
all those games you mentioned, starcraft included, fall under the category of "there's no fucking money in these games".
five people winning a few thousand dollars a year doesn't begin to mean there's enough money in the game. my point was indeed for people to be "coaches" professionally and fulltime there need to be a
1) vast supply of people who have money and desire to get better and dont know how (HELLO GOLF)
2) a clear line between "getting better" and "making cheddar" (hello poker coaches, business coaches) so it's an "investment"
starcraft has neither of these. obviously there's no #2, that's ridiculous. however, just because there's not enough #1 to make full time coaches possible, there are enough people around who have a little cash, which is balanced by the fact that it's fucking cheap as shit. incontrol charges like, fucking $30/hr? where i live that's not much more than you pay a maid.
my comment on every elite player being a coach wasn't to make me look retarded, it was to remind you that every elite player does have a coach, and if you don't have anyone you have that relationship with (where you can practice, exchange opinions, rely, etc), or are dissatisfied with what you said, you are in a position to get a coach. you don't NEED a clear line from "more skills" to "more money". i don't fucking pay a restaurant $30 to cook me dinner because i'm going to get $100 when i take a shit, i do it because it's delicious. likewise, all the time i sink into starcraft is a fucking waste of time anyway (if $20 is so important to you, go work at burger king), so what's the big deal with shelling out a few bucks to try and make myself better?
and more importantly
why do you think it's such a necessity to just roll into a thread and be like "hey you guyz, you're fucking stupid for not being awesome at starcraft all by yourself.i dont even play opponents, i carry my laptop to the top of a mountain and meditate for twelve hours and then kill 7 AI opponents with 9583APM and then my teeth glow pink and my mouse explodes from all the awesomeness"
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I am: trainer/trainee
Name: NoBody.lns (call me NB )
Location: ON Canada
League/points/record: Platinum/1200/40~32 (estimating, dun remember correctly)
Communication: mic+webcam built-in MBP, using both Mac/Win
Fee: Free to train and hoping that people will treat me same
Status: Kinda busy with non-starcraft-real-life stuff but really love sc xD
Other: Main race is Protoss, want advice from top plat people and willing to gv advice to people at lower rank ^^. Need help on setup a stream ...
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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Braavos36375 Posts
Can everyone stop making the same tired arguments against coaching? Like this guy:
On May 12 2010 03:28 Ballistixz wrote:
but what really kills me is that you said that as if theres any good/real money to be made in starcraft over any of the other big name/popular games out there lol. but thx for proving my point in that your paying for something that you will not get any money for in return even if you do become good at it.
Because everyone that takes piano lessons is planning on becoming mozart or a concert pianist for their job. Or everyone that goes to soccer camp is trying to sign with Arsenal. Or every college kid that takes a course for fun is planning on making that his or her profession.
People pay to get better at stuff that isn't their job. They play to enjoy their hobbies more. They pay for the experience. They pay for many reasons. Its not always to become a professional watercolor painter or whatever they receive coaching for.
I rarely ban for "stupidity" but your argument is so bad, and you repeatedly call people retards. Please take these two days to pay for some coaching in reading comprehension.
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EPT
