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I apologize to having my first post AND thread be a suggestion. I promise to post more after I get this out of the way!
Gentlemen, I have discovered the fix to the Ultralisk. I shall keep this short and to the point.
Make the Ultralisk Cavern tier 2, increase the cost to 200/200 (from 150/200) and increase the build time to 80 (from 65). Anabolic Synthesis (speed upgrade) is a tier 2 upgrade while the Chitinous Plating (+2 armor) remains tier 3.
For comparison purposes, lets calculate the resource and time cost for the massive ground units for all three factions:
Thor: 500 minerals, 225 gas and 210 seconds.
Colossus: 700 minerals, 300 gas and 245 seconds.
Ultralisk: 800 minerals, 550 gas and 360 seconds.
The Ultralisk is considered to be the weaker of the three, yet cost the most minerals, gas and time to gain access to. However, with my proposed changes it'll drop to 550 minerals, 300 gas and 225 seconds.
This brings the Ultralisk to parity with the other two massive ground units in terms of technology placement. This does not break the game because even during tier 2, all three races are more then capable of countering the Ultralisk. Note that if you rush to Ultralisks, you will end up delaying your Hydralisk Den and Spire, becoming extremely vulnerable to any sort of air.
Protoss can hard counter using the Immortal, Warp Ray or the Sentry's Force Field. They have a soft counters in the form of Stalkers.
Terran can hard counter using Marauders (with stim), Banshees and Thors (with or without 250mm). They have a soft counter in the form of the Siege Tank.
Zerg have the hardest of hard counters in the form of the Infestor. Hydralisks and Mutalisks are a soft counter to the Ultralisk.
I don't think having the Ultralisk at tier 2 invalidate the Roach either. They are still cheaper, faster, and more versatile than their massive cousin. This is just additional variety.
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but then the only building left that requires hive to build is greater spire...
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On April 21 2010 10:38 Gnaix wrote:
but then the only building left that requires hive to build is greater spire...
^
Solution:
Lurkers
:D
That being said in all seriousness, I think that makes zerg too loaded in t2. Especially because they're forced into t2 to counter air anyway.
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Yeah, what Gnaix said. Which is pretty much the only reason that anyone goes hive now anyway, but that's besides the point. In any case, if there is any unit in the game that should be tier 3.5, from a 'coolness' perspective, it must be the unit that has 'ultra' in its name. There should be no such thing as delaying your mutas and hydras because you wanted to get some ultras first...
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Give ultras an air attack.
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ultras just arent very useful, they block your units, get blocked easily and the armored attribute makes them really vulnerable.
changing them to T2 doesnt change any of that, roaches are still mostly the better choice for lowtech units cleanupduty.
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Ultralisks are actually really good against unit comps that aren't marauder/immortal heavy [Thors can be bad but you can NP if they try to 250 MM cannon you), it's just zerglings are already unpopular, marauders are already insane against all units and broodlords are really good so everyone gets ranged upgrades+broodlords.
I think the problem is more to do with weak zerglings strong broodlords and marauders being much stronger than most terran units even vs non armoured than with ultras themselves, I've been using them a lot they aren't bad at all, the aoe splash DPS is huge.
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Increase movement speed and make it immune to being slowed by Marauders. Then the Ultra will be fine... more than fine... it'll strike terror!
edit: better pathing too
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I've always felt very strong about blizzard imposing an upgrade which enables the ultralisk to be carried by 6 mutalisks to attack air.
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best concept yet ill give u that much. leaves hive tech too empty as mentioned tho
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If it wasn't for force field, the ultralisk would be stronger than Collosus. Ultralisk have an amazing aoe attack and lots of health.
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what exactly are those resource costs?
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Where did you these numbers for cost? Thor actually costs 650 mineral / 425 gas / 185 second, assuming you start with factory, tech lab, armory, and thor.
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I don't think so. Ultras really should be T3 as the strongest ground Zerg unit. It is just core to the idea of the Ultralisk. Ultras need a huge buff and Zerg needs a new T2 ground unit to balance out the diversity. Mutas and Hydras are really not enough in the mid game.
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I don't have anything to contribute to the conversation yet, but here is the explanation of resource costs.
To gain access to the Ultralisk:
Spawning Pool 200/0 65sec
Lair 150/100 80sec
Infestation Pit 100/100 50sec
Hive 200/150 100sec
Ultralisk Cavern 150/200sec 65sec
Total: 800 minerals, 550 gas and 360 seconds
To gain access to the Colossus:
Gateway 150/0 65sec
Cybernetics Core 150/0 50sec
Robotics Facility 200/100 65sec
Robotics Bay 200/200 65sec
Total: 700 minerals, 300 gas and 245 seconds
To gain access to the Thor:
Barracks 150/0 60sec
Factory 150/100 60sec
Tech Lab 50/25 25sec
Armory 150/100 65sec
Total: 500 minerals, 225 gas and 210 seconds
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What if ultralisk is left at tier 3, but when he unburrow he does aoe damage? I think he should be kept in tier 3, but tweak around a bit.
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Step 1: Make the roach and ultralisk tier 2.
Step 2: Fuse them into 1 unit.
Step 3: ?????????????
Step 4: Success
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Maybe if you spent less time complaining about the unit, and more time trying to make the unit work, you'd realize that if you dropped a few into someone's main, they'd probably lose their main.
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Ultralisk just doesnt fit a tier 2 role and too few zergs go hive to begin with, so there needs to be more there then broodlords.
They basicly just need to do somthing to make it play out abit more smooth, and not crash into and block everything on its way.
A start is nerfing broodlords, and giving ultralisk either the speed or armor upgrade by default. Having to upgrade both to be usefull after a really long tech path is too unforgiving, specially when its not that good to begin with.
I think we all can agree on one thing, as long as broodlords are not nerfed, we aint gonna see ultralisk in tournaments because there is not a single way ultralisk can perform better.
I think at this point it would just be better to scrap that unit and introduce somthing we all want back.........LURKER!
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The problem is zerg has even less need to go Hive tech. And with the huge proposed cost of making ultras... wouldn't it be better to get other units instead?
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Ultralisks counter your economy, that's about it.
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Thor: 500 minerals, 225 gas and 210 seconds.
Colossus: 700 minerals, 300 gas and 245 seconds.
Ultralisk: 800 minerals, 550 gas and 360 seconds.
Am I misunderstanding something? Those aren't even close to the costs.
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can we get a new section called "training grounds" where people with less than 100 posts can "play" around before being allowed to post in the strategy forum?
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don't think it will help, sounds like you just wanna use ultras
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On April 21 2010 11:12 omg.deus wrote:
don't think it will help, sounds like you just wanna use ultras
I have been discovered!
: (
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The concept of ultras not requiring Hive tech is baffling to me... 
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You can't just compare the costs directly to P and T.
P and T have to make multiple buildings (which you use in your calculations for access) to effectively make the unit. Z just needs a building then it's larva time.
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I like this suggestion, the zerg really do need some more flexibility overall.
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I'd like to see him at tier 3 but be more useful. maybe move faster and have even 1 more armor
Also, if lings were buffed a bit (they are weaker now than in BW...their adrenal gland upgrade is weaker and they do worse against zealots due to attack times), then we might see more ultras just like we did in BW because it would be more worth it to invest in ground melee attack and armor upgrades. As it is now, ranged attack and armor are the best upgrades because roach/hydra is better than ultra/ling. But I would love to see ultra/ling get buffed by boosting ling attack speed upgrade to BW levels. I wanna see true cracklings again.
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On April 21 2010 11:10 EximoSua2 wrote:Show nested quote +Thor: 500 minerals, 225 gas and 210 seconds.
Colossus: 700 minerals, 300 gas and 245 seconds.
Ultralisk: 800 minerals, 550 gas and 360 seconds. Am I misunderstanding something? Those aren't even close to the costs.
You are missing something and you missed it twice. It has already been explained in the thread. Look back at the posts on page 1.
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Ultras vs. Protoss: blocks your units during FF, easy kill for immortals
Ultras vs. Zerg: works well against a unit that is never the main composition late-game; also, infestors
Ultras vs. Terran: *maybe*; a marine banshee army would likely get demolished by ultras & hydras, while the standard MMM might die to ultras + banelings; I'm liking this idea though I haven't been able to make it work myself
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EPT
