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I'm seriously shocked over the results so far. I don't see how anyone can argue that Protoss is the strongest race overall for example. I'd definitely say Zerg is the strongest race overall right now.
PvZ: Protoss has one thing going for them, well executed early game pushes - Once you hit the mid/lategame the balance seems to be skewed heavily in Zergs favour. Once zerg figures out how to stop this early push, Protoss is once again fucked. Just look at Zotac yesterday, I don't want to take away credit from zpux, he played really well, but it looked as Spinecrawlers pretty much solves anything early toss has to throw away at you as zerg right now.
TvZ: Same thing basically. Terran has to inflict some sort of damage early on with a well-timed rush or something along those lines.
TvP: This matchup sort of "evens" out in the midgame where before the patch, Terran was definitely in a stronger position early game, now it's kinda reversed where protoss has the early game advantages while Terran struggles to take it to the midgame. (Arguably midgame is hard as fuck for Terran, but I'm a terran player and I'm pretty sure i'm, if only slightly, biased.)
Even though it might seem I'm one of those who cries out imbalance, i'm seriously trying to stop that. I agree with you, this game is actually more balanced than what people make it out to be. I can just relate to myself when saying that, It's SO much easier on your ego (especially on your ego) to cry out "IMBALANCE!" rather than saying "I fucked up, he played better".
I think SC/BW players are the ones doing this the most right now, mainly due to the fact that we always took pride in that "our" game was the most balanced RTS game, thus we could never really blame imbalance (maybe an imbalanced map every now and then). Now that we're given the oppertunity to do so, so to say, I think a lot of sc/bw players capitalize on this a tad bit too much, rather than accepting that you just played worse than your opponent.
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I feel like the conversation is missing some extremely important details.
1. First off, some of you need some damn foresight. In 2 years this game is going to look nothing like it does today. Bisu corsair play, Zerg defiler play? They were late comers and are now completely dominant. We are using only the most basic strategies right now.
2. The skill cap is one of those terms that gets mocked, but it is pivotal here. Look at top beta replays and find me a player that isn't doing absolutely terrible with chrono boost once they have a few nexus or more than 10 min into the game. Same with mule and spawn larva. Honestly, we all SUCK at this game.
That being said, this sort of conversation is important, but please throttle back your egos and realize that this game will be changing each month, with or without balance changes.
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On April 20 2010 01:25 meRz wrote:
I'm seriously shocked over the results so far. I don't see how anyone can argue that Protoss is the strongest race overall for example. I'd definitely say Zerg is the strongest race overall right now.
PvZ: Protoss has one thing going for them, well executed early game pushes - Once you hit the mid/lategame the balance seems to be skewed heavily in Zergs favour. Once zerg figures out how to stop this early push, Protoss is once again fucked. Just look at Zotac yesterday, I don't want to take away credit from zpux, he played really well, but it looked as Spinecrawlers pretty much solves anything early toss has to throw away at you as zerg right now.
So you look at a few games where Protoss goes for early pushes, and wonder why Zerg > Protoss in the late game? It's because Toss users are throwing away economy and army at these 1 time pushes so they never make it to late game. Might I suggest game 1 or game 3 of my ITL match with Machine... or even kiwi's game vs sheth on meta (forgot which event this was)...
Smart zerg players are playing a macro game with sufficient defense to beat 4 gate all-in's, and you haven't watched a late game PvZ evidently to make any kind of judgement. And for the record, both immortals and colossi own spine crawlers.
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On April 20 2010 01:32 Antimage wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 01:25 meRz wrote:
I'm seriously shocked over the results so far. I don't see how anyone can argue that Protoss is the strongest race overall for example. I'd definitely say Zerg is the strongest race overall right now.
PvZ: Protoss has one thing going for them, well executed early game pushes - Once you hit the mid/lategame the balance seems to be skewed heavily in Zergs favour. Once zerg figures out how to stop this early push, Protoss is once again fucked. Just look at Zotac yesterday, I don't want to take away credit from zpux, he played really well, but it looked as Spinecrawlers pretty much solves anything early toss has to throw away at you as zerg right now.
So you look at a few games where Protoss goes for early pushes, and wonder why Zerg > Protoss in the late game? It's because Toss users are throwing away economy and army at these 1 time pushes so they never make it to late game. Might I suggest game 1 or game 3 of my ITL match with Machine... or even kiwi's game vs sheth on meta (forgot which event this was)... Smart zerg players are playing a macro game with sufficient defense to beat 4 gate all-in's, and you haven't watched a late game PvZ evidently. And for the record, both immortals and colossi own spine crawlers.
I've watched TONS of lategame PvZ's and only took yesterdays Zotac Cup as an example. Evidently, Zpux (I can't remember how to say shit that ends with an X in plural) play was a lot better and had his opponent(s) adjusted they might have performed better. But I've seen lots of high-level matches (Nazgul vs Haypro, Zpux vs Goody.. etc) Where the protoss player has gone for a strong economical build, trying to mirror the Zerg in terms of economy, and still get completly crushed. Yet, i'm not saying you're wrong, these zerg players might just flat out be better than their opponents, but I can't help but to get the feeling that something is still wrong in the mid to lategame in PvZ.
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On April 20 2010 01:36 meRz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 01:32 Antimage wrote:On April 20 2010 01:25 meRz wrote:
I'm seriously shocked over the results so far. I don't see how anyone can argue that Protoss is the strongest race overall for example. I'd definitely say Zerg is the strongest race overall right now.
PvZ: Protoss has one thing going for them, well executed early game pushes - Once you hit the mid/lategame the balance seems to be skewed heavily in Zergs favour. Once zerg figures out how to stop this early push, Protoss is once again fucked. Just look at Zotac yesterday, I don't want to take away credit from zpux, he played really well, but it looked as Spinecrawlers pretty much solves anything early toss has to throw away at you as zerg right now.
So you look at a few games where Protoss goes for early pushes, and wonder why Zerg > Protoss in the late game? It's because Toss users are throwing away economy and army at these 1 time pushes so they never make it to late game. Might I suggest game 1 or game 3 of my ITL match with Machine... or even kiwi's game vs sheth on meta (forgot which event this was)... Smart zerg players are playing a macro game with sufficient defense to beat 4 gate all-in's, and you haven't watched a late game PvZ evidently. And for the record, both immortals and colossi own spine crawlers. I've watched TONS of lategame PvZ's and only took yesterdays Zotac Cup as an example. Evidently, Zpux (I can't remember how to say shit that ends with an X in plural) play was a lot better and had his opponent(s) adjusted they might have performed better. But I've seen lots of high-level matches (Nazgul vs Haypro, Zpux vs Goody.. etc) Where the protoss player has gone for a strong economical build, trying to mirror the Zerg in terms of economy, and still get completly crushed. Yet, i'm not saying you're wrong, these zerg players might just flat out be better than their opponents, but I can't help but to get the feeling that something is still wrong in the mid to lategame in PvZ.
What unit composition do toss players have problems with? Blink stalkers own brood lords, storms/colossi/immortals/stalkers/sentries murder anything on the ground with force fields/guardian shields/psi storms blanketing the entire battlefield. Sure, you might not be able to make an aggressive move until you have enough psi storm + 2-3 colossi, but the zerg player won't attack into 3-4 cannons + HT's anyway. Again, I'd suggest watching my games with Machine - Protoss CAN keep up macro-wise, and if it's imbalanced at the late game, I'd say the game hasn't been played long enough to determine that 100%.
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Personally I feel like it's the old BW power triangle of Zerg > Protoss > Terran > Zerg, only except much more exaggerated in SC2.
Terran's response to Protoss was mech, but with the Immortal the power of early game mech, which was the brunt of Terran's defense has been negated. As a result, Protoss is simply stronger than Terran in the early game due to the Immortal and the fact that Marines simply build so slowly now. Once it gets to mid-late game, the two races are pretty equal once a tank mass is reached or sufficient Thors come into play.
Zerg's advantage over the Protoss was it's ability to tech switch incredibly easy. In SC2, that ability has only been increased with the introduction of spawn larva. Add to that the Protoss's weak anti-air and very specialized units (Colossi rapes ground, but raped by air, Immortal rapes roaches but gets raped by speedlings and enough hydras, etc...), Zerg tech swtiches from hydra/roach masses to muta masses are just incredibly deadly. And once the game gets to late-game, if Protoss doesn't have a economic advantage by that point, they will always lose when Broodlords come into play.
Can't speak for TvZ as I don't play that matchup, but I suspect it's mostly the absence of dark swarm protecting the squishy Zerg units combined with a lack of reliable (not ultras) Zerg splash damage to combat MMM balls.
@Antimage: Protoss has problem with mass mutas into mass hydras/roaches. It's very, very easy for Zerg to open with a quick spire, just mass up a TON of mutalisks and just rape your econ line. It's very hard to get enough stalkers/sentries that early in the game to counter a mass muta strategy. All the while they just tech up to hydras or mass roaches. The void ray push isn't as effective anymore because Zergs are learning to build a few spores, which combined with a queen absolutely demolishes early void ray rushes. In addition, Protoss can't keep up Phoenix production to be on par with Muta production due to the higher cost (and build time) of Phoenix and spawn larva. If you throw down enough stargates to match Zerg's constant muta production you'll just be raped when they switch over to hydras or even just mass speedlings, which is very easy to do. It's not impossible for Protoss to deal with early mass mutas, just very hard. Once Zerg gets the ball going and you don't whittle down the muta numbers sufficiently after the first or second harass the muta ball will just keep growing until it's gg.
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I'd love to continue this discussion, but I honestly have to go. But just a small input, the way I see it now, Protoss needs SO much shit in order to compete with a mid to lategame Z army while Z can rely on Basically 2 types of units and eventually throw in broodlords.
Like you said, Toss gets Storms/Colossi/Immortals/Stalkers/Sentries vs what? Usually Roach/Hydra and later on Broodlings. If i'm not way wrong here, affording both Storm and Colossus + Enough Immortal + Enough sentries is not very possible as a P player unless you can get up to 6 geysers going, and yet you seem to need all these things to deal with what Z can mass in pretty large numbers off just 2 bases.
Still, just a quick input but I get your point and I'm not saying you're wrong. I assume you're playing Protoss as well so you understand the matchup a whole lotter better than me, I have to go!
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ZvT - I found pretty easy using baneling busts or muta corrupter combo if they were going mech, but now im playing against decent people i'm finding it pretty hard.
ZvP - Stopping early game pushes is easy now using crawlers (not sure if thats a good for the game but hey) some people have said late game is easy for zerg but even if i have 4 base and keep them on two i still get owned late game. Mass sentries is my main problem but gonna go check out these zotac games people have been talking about
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On April 20 2010 01:41 Ryuu314 wrote:
@Antimage: Protoss has problem with mass mutas into mass hydras/roaches. It's very, very easy for Zerg to open with a quick spire, just mass up a TON of mutalisks and just rape your econ line. It's very hard to get enough stalkers/sentries that early in the game to counter a mass muta strategy. All the while they just tech up to hydras or mass roaches. The void ray push isn't as effective anymore because Zergs are learning to build a few spores, which combined with a queen absolutely demolishes early void ray rushes. In addition, Protoss can't keep up Phoenix production to be on par with Muta production due to the higher cost (and build time) of Phoenix and spawn larva. If you throw down enough stargates to match Zerg's constant muta production you'll just be raped when they switch over to hydras or even just mass speedlings, which is very easy to do.
If they use their gas on mutas, it means they won't have gas for roaches hydras. Which means they'll be reliant on spine crawlers/zerglings, which can be completely negated with blink stalkers or a well microed immortal push. If they mass lots and lots of spine crawlers to make it impossible to push in, then you can do the same, cannon up and get blink stalkers to fight those mutas. Once you have an ob in their base, you can get blink stalkers up into their main before they have a critical mass of mutas.
I truly believe phoenixes are NOT the answers to a mass muta zerg player, but a mass muta strategy is very susceptible to timing hits on their main like using blink stalkers or elevator tactics with the warp prism.
My suggestion is for you guys to stop opening up stargate in all your PvZ's - a surprise tactic works once in a while, but you can't hope to win your games like that.
EDIT: oh wow i mentioned blink stalkers a lot didn't I ... well I think I got the point across.
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On April 20 2010 01:32 Antimage wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 01:25 meRz wrote:
I'm seriously shocked over the results so far. I don't see how anyone can argue that Protoss is the strongest race overall for example. I'd definitely say Zerg is the strongest race overall right now.
PvZ: Protoss has one thing going for them, well executed early game pushes - Once you hit the mid/lategame the balance seems to be skewed heavily in Zergs favour. Once zerg figures out how to stop this early push, Protoss is once again fucked. Just look at Zotac yesterday, I don't want to take away credit from zpux, he played really well, but it looked as Spinecrawlers pretty much solves anything early toss has to throw away at you as zerg right now.
So you look at a few games where Protoss goes for early pushes, and wonder why Zerg > Protoss in the late game? It's because Toss users are throwing away economy and army at these 1 time pushes so they never make it to late game. Might I suggest game 1 or game 3 of my ITL match with Machine... or even kiwi's game vs sheth on meta (forgot which event this was)... Smart zerg players are playing a macro game with sufficient defense to beat 4 gate all-in's, and you haven't watched a late game PvZ evidently to make any kind of judgement. And for the record, both immortals and colossi own spine crawlers.
this is exactly what i'm seeing as well. i'm so glad someone else does.
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I think actually Protoss are the best. The have no problems with Terran and as a Zerg youre not in a better position since brood lords come out. The only unit Protoss has a hard time to deal with.
In case what race is the easiest to play i wont make much of a difference between zerg and protoss. They are both pretty easy to handle. Zerg unit production is really smooth now in sc2 and Protoss with their warp in and forget buildings + the warpgates its not that hard. Terran in my eyes is much much harder to keep everything flowing.
The strenght of Z lies in their macro abilities. But they have really hard times vs timing pushes from all races. If you defend early and get 2-3 expansions youre in a good position, but that should be obvious.
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Current state of PvZ is that maps play a defining role on balance. On long distance, macro maps such as Desert Oasis and Scrap Station, things seems to be in favor of Z, but on short rush maps, P seems to be slightly stronger and able to punish greedy players much more.
Overall, I feel like T is probably the strongest race in the game by a little margin, while Z is by far easiest race to play. TvZ is a very well balanced matchup in my opinion.
Broodlords are currently overpowered. As predicted by pretty much everyone (except Blizzard) their -5 dmg nerf did nothing to help this issue, as the whole broodling mechanic is problematic, not just the dmg output of BL's.
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terran does seem to be the weakest race overall blizz will buff them im sure
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I feel that this game is well balanced on most maps but most definitely not on Desert Oasis. It's zerg heaven.
I've spent very little time playing anything but protoss so I'll talk about them. I have a great win percentage thanks to early pushes but the thing with these are that they're strong because people suck. When they do get stopped it's not necessarily because I got out-played but because the opponent simply had solid builds that don't lose to early pressure. There is no need to nerf the power of these pushes with patches because the problem (if there is a problem) will solve it self.
Force field is insanely powerful in some situations and nerfing it would make sense. But looking at BW, swarm was just craaaazy powerful in some situation (one swarm and a few lurkers in your natural? GG) and these extremely powerful and extremely situational spells makes the game interesting.
Decreasing the amount of shield that Immortals have would be a good change I must admit.
The risk is that mass MMM would be way hard to hold of before you get a decent amount of colossi.
EDIT: Oh, and I don't like Brood Lords. Not because the unit is overpowered but because they're a late game unit and zerg is crazy good in the late game. I love the HUGE macro of zergs late game because zerg should crash against their enemies in wave after wave. Sure, hydras, lings and roaches will die in huge numbers to the late game AoE of the other races but they can wear them down thanks to extreme production capabilities. The Brood Lord is too powerfull to fit in. Buff the Ultralisk instead.
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Z > P
If the zerg gets to mutalisks, the game is most likely over. It seems only mass zealot/sentry can deal with this, as Protoss rarely survive long enough to build high templar.
T > Z
Thors are extremely cost effective, fast banshee is devastating, turrets seem to hard-counter mutalisks, and Zerg can lose entire armies trying to kill a planetary fortress. Standard MM vs. standard zerg ground seems to be quite balanced though.
(Platinum ~20 Zerg)
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I think the polls are pretty accurate except for the "overall strongest race" which i think is a bit senseless
P>>>T, Z>>P, T?Z (dunno this one)
And the > are not in a "manageable" way atm, they are pretty imbafuck
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i rly need to cry if i see all this P>Z i dont know what league u guys are playing but this might be in copper... every people i ask say this mu is fucked up mass sentries and immo push fucks everything
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Hello.
I'm just gonna post my opinion here, and many of you might not agree but you will find out, in time, that I am right.
Zerg is currently the strongest race. The reason most think that ZvT is hard is because of the dumb strategies like baneling bust or roach rush that most low-level players are attempting. Gold and lower platinum are FILLED with people going baneling bust all games ZvT (and I should know, I play random). But the hard truth is that if zerg just goes for a macro game and manages to fend off the cheeses (reaper harass, hellion harass, bunker rush, etc), zerg is more likely to win than terran is.
Most people don't abuse macro like some good players do (see Idra replays). For a lower-level match it's easy to just FE into 3 hatch and mass drones with 1-2-3 sunkens. Getting one queen for every hatch should be safe against banshee harass, (i sometimes even go 4 queens out of 3 hatches and late gas if I feel that terran isn't teching super fast cloak) and lings will take care of most everything terran throws at you before lair is out. After than switching to some hydra/banelings will tilt the balance in your favor, especially since you have 50 drones and the terran is struggling with 20-30 scvs.
ZvP is a bit harder due to the Colossus, but MOST common protoss strats are really easy to hold off with queen/lings (especially that immortal rush, whenever I see a protoss going 1-gate-1-robo I go into 3 hatch queens, and pump out lings when he steps outside his base. 3-4 immortals and zeals don't stand a chance vs 3 sunks, 6 queens and lings. Not to mention that you'll have double his worker amount.)
So anyway, I played against platinum players who have ratings as high as 2000 (well, 1960++), so I'm not talking out of my ass. People are just trying too many rushes (baneling, muta, etc), but there's really no need for that since zerg CAN take the advantage in mid game. And if he does mass enough colossi, you should have a good enough economy to hold off until corruptors/broodlords kick in.
I'm not really sure about TvP, though it seems harder to win with Terran so far, but as far as ZvT and PvZ goes, you really can't say that T or P is stronger than zerg. At best they're even. And people who whine should just try to play some macro games and use the queen a bit more (I haven't lost a game to void rays/banshees ever since I've been going "macro").
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Yeah I don't really know if I think TvZ is balanced ATM. It feels like the terran needs to do something to stop the zerg from spamming drones, but the zerg can easily scout it and make a bunch of units in time to stop any attack that isn't all-in. So the terran can win if he does a lot of damage with harass or if the zerg messes up scouting an all in, but I feel like it's very difficult for the terran to win a normal game if the zerg just macros and scouts well.
They really need to increase the cost of overlord speed. They also need to nerf the ability to vomit creep. It should be an upgrade or it should at least go away much faster once the overlord is killed or moves. Also, creep tumors are ridiculous and should be looked at as well. Any good TvZ will have the terran turtling in his base while the zerg has creep and vision of vast areas of the map, giving them ridiculous levels of confidence and mobility. It's too easy for the zerg to have almost the entire map revealed and have 10+ super convenient scouts, all for a very cheap upgrade on the Lair.
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On April 19 2010 20:07 Pekkz wrote:
In a match where no gimmick move like really fast void ray or banshee or some shit is used it feels like zerg is ahead if game goes on past 15 mins or so.
Two things make zerg extreamly powerful right now.
Spawn larva
Creep tumors and overlord creep.
Spawn larva is just too good when you have saved up your larva on all hatches late game to instantly make another 150 supply in 20 sec. Protoss and terran have to spend shitloads of gold on production buildings where its allmost free for zerg. Playing late game macro war is downhill battle against zerg.
I think invisible creep tumors really make scouting and mobility too good for zerg. For 25 energy you can cover half map in creep. Possible fix would be to make max 2-3 extra creep tumors off one. It doesnt feel like much of a sacrifise for zerg to use creep tumors now, like it is with terran and mule/scan. Maby increase energy for creep tumors to atleast 50 would make it a harder choice.
I totally agree. While spreading creep everywhere is very Zerg-like, it gives them too decisive of a defender's advantage compared to the other races. In SC1 it was accepted to call the Terrans the defensive race of choice.
Despite the ability to lower depots, Terran is secondary to Zerg in SC2 in terms of defense. You get on that creep and Zerg forces, especially speedlings and Banelings, are on you instantly - not to mention all other ground moving quicker as well. Meanwhile they can produce vast amounts of forces far quicker than in SC1 because of Spawn Larva - enough that I feel it outweighs MULE benefits. So they get their reinforcements on you instantly. And movable sunkens allow them to shift their "static" defense to get a better position.
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EPT
